Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[DarkAce]

I would read your post if you presented it in a manner that was readable. As it stands I'm not going to bother because you gave me a wall of text full of your opinions and bad grammar. I can't read it, it hurts my eyes.

Regardless of what you think, neither I nor the rest of my crew including Dylan wish to impose our opinions on you, so please refrain from doing so to me with such slanderous terms as ''childish'' really, who are you to be so judgemental?

We still play super smash 64, Dylan is quite good online and is trying out for the canadian rankings, and we practice melee quite often each week.

In all honnesty we have a great desire to improve even moreso at melee and it could occupy us for a long time. So even if Brawl lacks wavedashing and we do not make the switch, we still have plenty to keep us amused.

So yes, for our own reasons which Dylan has argued valiantly, (and won everytime, I might add) on this forum, our crew will not play Brawl if it doesn't have wavedashing

Sorry if this opinion aggrivates you, but it's how I feel, its how my 12 year old sister feels, Its how my friend George feels, its how Dylan feels. its also how many, many of our friends who play melee feel.

We're definatly not alone, so even if everyone makes the switch, which wont happen because no matter how much people play Brawl, melee will live forever we will ALWAYS have a crew to play SSBM with.

I am not telling you how to play the game, what game to buy, or what to do. I am meerly stating an opinion which Dylan has backed up with logical points on more than one occasion and would be doing right now were he not banned. But heck I figure I can replace him for a little while.

Though Dylan is way more addicted to forums than I am (look at my post count vs his )

So don't worry you don't have a 2nd Dylan_Tnga on your hands

Their was nothing wrong with his post just your eyes.
If you couldn't comprehend he was saying, brawl is a new game, with new things to discover, and basically asked if you found an advance technique that works better than WD would you convert or stick to WD.(not that hard honestly...people have to put effort i swear.)

 

[The Kirby Kong]

What are some of your views on this? Would you welcome the changes, or would you be incredibly disappointed if wavedashing, etc. was taken out of the next installment?

Personally, I think the advanced techniques give the Smash Bros. community a whole world to explore in terms of character development; that's why people here are as good as they are: they take the time to develop their gameplay, and wavedashing, etc. gives you that chance. It separates the hard-workers--who really care about improving themselves--from the all-talk n00bs.

I wouldn't wanna see these techniques return.

In my opinion, it's just a bunch of exploits. It's basically like cheating.
Does it really make for a better player, if he has to resort to techniques that were only added by accident? Moves that weren't meant to be possible.

No, I very much like to see a clean version of Smash Bros, without hidden techniques.
Isn't that what the N64 version was? Because the original was certainly as much fun as Melee, in it's respective time.

And I don't think you're losing any strategic depth with its removal. People will find new ways to fight, new tricks to pull off, new ways to handle a certain situation, where they previously would have used these 'hidden techniques'... no, I don't doubt that Brawl can be amazingly fun without all these cheats.

Let's just have fair matches, just like the good old days with Smash 64. Where everyone played the same game, no hidden tricks. Where true skill would be noticable, instead of victory being dependant on the mastering of a single button combination/timing.

To me, matches in Brawl should be about strategic fighting and making fast decisions. Making the choices between where to move your character, what attack to do at what time, when to shield, dodge.. etc. That, to me, should have far more emphasis in the game than just standing still, waiting for your opponent to come into attack range and pulling off your secret technique.

 

[Rikka]

I'd recommend not joining a more standard fighter's competitive scene, then.

 

[Heretique]

I don't think wavedashing will be in Brawl, but I do think Sakurai will be (intentionally) adding advanced techniques. I think Brawl will be more balanced and "easy to pick up, impossible to master" than ever--that's kind of half of Sakurai's job.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I wouldn't wanna see these techniques return.

Why? Just don't use them. There! Problem solved!

In my opinion, it's just a bunch of exploits. It's basically like cheating.

Cheating? How do any of these techniques grant unfair advantages to one player?

Does it really make for a better player, if he has to resort to techniques that were only added by accident? Moves that weren't meant to be possible.

Yes, it does. Good players explore the game and discover techniques before others do. Why must we play according to the creator's intent? That essentially kills the point of playing video games.

No, I very much like to see a clean version of Smash Bros, without hidden techniques.
Isn't that what the N64 version was? Because the original was certainly as much fun as Melee, in it's respective time.

So, you want to deprive thousands of other players the very aspect that makes the game enjoyable just to keep people like you happy? Again, just don't use the advanced techniques! Stop inflicting your beliefs on the rest of the world!

And I don't think you're losing any strategic depth with its removal. People will find new ways to fight, new tricks to pull off, new ways to handle a certain situation, where they previously would have used these 'hidden techniques'... no, I don't doubt that Brawl can be amazingly fun without all these cheats.

If strategic depth is not lost/gained, then why remove them? Again, they are not cheats.

Let's just have fair matches, just like the good old days with Smash 64. Where everyone played the same game, no hidden tricks. Where true skill would be noticable, instead of victory being dependant on the mastering of a single button combination/timing.

Ah, the classic "true skill" term emerges once again. Since when do you define what true skill is? Besides, true skill implies winning, not demonstrating fancy tricks or reacting quickly.

To me, matches in Brawl should be about strategic fighting and making fast decisions. Making the choices between where to move your character, what attack to do at what time, when to shield, dodge.. etc. That, to me, should have far more emphasis in the game than just standing still, waiting for your opponent to come into attack range and pulling off your secret technique.

Um... That's what the game is about. Maybe you should research the competitive community before ripping on it mindlessly simply because you do not like their style of play. And from the sounds of it, there would be no "secret techniques" in your world of smash. You just ripped out all the hidden techniques.

 

[Junpappy]

Oh my god. Another one of these threads.

Originally Posted by The Kirby Kong View Post
And I don't think you're losing any strategic depth with its removal. People will find new ways to fight, new tricks to pull off, new ways to handle a certain situation, where they previously would have used these 'hidden techniques'... no, I don't doubt that Brawl can be amazingly fun without all these cheats.

As soon as people find those new tricks to pull off, people like you will whine and ***** about how they're cheap.

Seriously, why the hell are you complaining about these techniques?

True skill? LOL!!! You're not more qualified than any of the rest of us to determine what true skill is so don't go around speaking your opinion as if it were fact and then *****ing about it when someone doesn't play by your arbitrary rules.

Cheating? Seriously?

Stop trolling. Your join date clearly shows that you've either been away from your computer for 5 years or that you just want to see someone get mad and flame you.

 

[bobwaffles]

Well, I hope there are some advanced techniques in Brawl. I really don't care on the matter, since I'll be able to adapt to Brawl no matter what new techniques there are.

 

[psicicle]

I don't doubt that Brawl can be amazingly fun without all these cheats.

whoah a triple negative

 

[Red Exodus]

I wouldn't wanna see these techniques return.

In my opinion, it's just a bunch of exploits. It's basically like cheating.
Does it really make for a better player, if he has to resort to techniques that were only added by accident? Moves that weren't meant to be possible.

That's right, your OPINION. In a tournament scene no one will care about some random casual player's opinion about sometime he obviously knows nothing about.

No, I very much like to see a clean version of Smash Bros, without hidden techniques.
Isn't that what the N64 version was? Because the original was certainly as much fun as Melee, in it's respective time.

Are you kidding? You can easily get 0 to death comboed in SSB64. Shows how much you know.

And I don't think you're losing any strategic depth with its removal. People will find new ways to fight, new tricks to pull off, new ways to handle a certain situation, where they previously would have used these 'hidden techniques'... no, I don't doubt that Brawl can be amazingly fun without all these cheats.

Yes way are losing depth. You can only airdodge with momentum now, that is a heavy limit in terms of options in the air.

The point isn't about if Brawl can be fun, we wanna know if it can support a competitive scene like SSB64 and Melee have before it.

Let's just have fair matches, just like the good old days with Smash 64. Where everyone played the same game, no hidden tricks. Where true skill would be noticable, instead of victory being dependant on the mastering of a single button combination/timing.

They ARE fair. Again shows how much you know, stages are banned in order to protect players from 'unfairness'. SSB64 had a tournament scene and it had advanced techniques like Z canceling, which cancelled all lag from aerial attacks.

And this is a fighting game, not a RPG. If you only press one button at a time you must be fighting level 1 computers or your playing the wrong game.

To me, matches in Brawl should be about strategic fighting and making fast decisions. Making the choices between where to move your character, what attack to do at what time, when to shield, dodge.. etc. That, to me, should have far more emphasis in the game than just standing still, waiting for your opponent to come into attack range and pulling off your secret technique.

Isn't that what we do? Do you even know what advanced techniques do what because you make it sound like we have a button combo for automatic win, or better yet, a controller with a win button.

The last part is so wrong you don't know. Stand STILL and wait for your opponent? What game are you playing? Pokemon? We don't 'stand still' and wait to use your automatic win combo. I'd like to see your sources because everything you're saying is a opinion with misconceptions thrown in.



And one last thing, why can't you play your way and be happy? Did someone from this site bang on your door and ***** about how you play the game? No? Then why are you trying to change the way we play? Because of your opinion? It doesn't work that way. So play your way and stop trying to talk about something you know nothing about.

 

[The Kirby Kong]

And one last thing, why can't you play your way and be happy? Did someone from this site bang on your door and ***** about how you play the game? No? Then why are you trying to change the way we play? Because of your opinion? It doesn't work that way. So play your way and stop trying to talk about something you know nothing about.

My god, so many angry responses... none of them understood why I wrote it.

Please check out the OP post, it specifically asks everyone to give their opinion.

So I give my opinion (yes I made it very clear, it was just my opinion, and I'm not ripping at people that do like these techniques), and all people can do is flame me? Pfff, get a grip.

Person 1: Please tell me what you think of my jacket. I kinda like it.
Person 2: If you want my opinion, I think it doesn't suit you.
Person 3,4,5,6: OMG NOOB, LEARN TO PLAY, LOLOLOL, YOU DON'T KNOW SH*T ABOUT JACKETS!

Sorry, but that's just ignorance. :\

Anyway, let me ask you guys a question. How do you think these techniques happened to be in Melee? I'm pretty sure they were never meant to be in the game, but people found out about them, and it made things more interesting for tournaments.

Is it really so weird to assume that even when it's not Sakurai's intention to put in these techniques, that very likewise techniques will surface for Brawl?

Or let me word it differently. Do you specifically want Wavedashing and all that to come back in Brawl? Or do you want to find new tricks that bring the same amount of 'skill' to competitive play?

What I meant was, even if the game was cleaned up, and none of that Wavedashing stuff was put into Brawl intentionally. There would still be new techniques that would surface, that's very natural to fighting games, the players will always find new ways.

And I think those new ways are a bit more exciting than rehasing the old.

THAT is what I tried to say in my previous post, so I hope people will understand me now.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

When two people misunderstand you the same way, you should try reiterating it in different words. Frankly, I don't see your last post as any form of cleanup to your previous one. Your previous post clearly displayed ignorance about the competitive community as you expressed desire for all the techniques that you don't like to be removed.

 

[Crispy4001]

I don't doubt that Brawl will have new techniques, I just doubt that any of them will add the same level of depth that Melee had.

Removing the AT that adds an extra layer of depth to the positioning guarentees this. I highly doubt we'll get a new AT that can replace wavedashing when the team obviously is trying to remove the extra freedom it gave with approach.

 

[WastingPenguins]

The "not intended" argument is so absurd to me.

For instance: with good timing, Marth can pull out two f-airs in a single short hop. This isn't a glitch or a wild exploit or anything like that. Rather, the development team programmed Marth so that he could do f-airs while he is airborne. You know what though? I really doubt that the development team was doing double f-airs with Marth before release. The timing is pretty difficult without much practice. In any case, I can pretty much guarantee that they didn't sit down for a play test, pull out a double f-air and proclaim, "Indeed, Marth's double f-air, just as we INTENDED!"

Point: It's possible that the dev team didn't even THINK about the possibility of pulling out two f-airs in one short hop, but that's not even close to a glitch, an exploit, or a crazy secret technique. Believe it or not, players eventually got better at the game than the development team, and started using the rules of the game in more complex, creative ways than the developers had thought of. This happens in basically EVERY SINGLE game ever invented, be it video games, boards games, sports, whatever. The only time it would not happen is in the shallowest games. Say, Tic-Tac-Toe or Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Also: Kirby Kong, bud, no offense-- but you seem to know less about Smash than anyone I've ever seen on this board. You might as well be at a Advanced Chess techniques forum telling people how much you like the piece shaped like a horsey.

 

[Sp1yd3r]

i think they should keep the advanced techniques because thats what made the game so great

 

[TishTamble]

The "not intended" argument is so absurd to me.



Point: It's possible that the dev team didn't even THINK about the possibility of pulling out two f-airs in one short hop, but that's not even close to a glitch, an exploit, or a crazy secret technique. Believe it or not, players eventually got better at the game than the development team, and started using the rules of the game in more complex, creative ways than the developers had thought of. This happens in basically EVERY SINGLE game ever invented, be it video games, boards games, sports, whatever. The only time it would not happen is in the shallowest games. Say, Tic-Tac-Toe or Rock-Paper-Scissors.

interesting side note. Rock paper scissors has intense depth to it.

 

[Rx-]

I am looking forward to discovering many new techniques during the release week of Brawl. I will use these to crush younger, more inexperienced players.

interesting side note. Rock paper scissors has intense depth to it.

I read a lengthy book about competitive R-P-S. Neat stuff about clenching your fist in certain ways before releasing.

 

[Crispy4001]

I could see Dash Dancing and shffl's being even more useful in Brawl now that people can't wavedash back f-smash.

I wish they would have kept the wavedash in and made it easy to use. It could have helped all those casual players counter the DD and shffl. Oh well, they asked for it.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

We still have yet to test the applicability of the new slides/rolls.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Was there any word on rolling from E4All? It'd be cool if rolls were quicker or had less end lag, making them less punishable. That'd be a step in the right direction. Though I have a feeling they'll be the same as they've always been.

 

[Dynamism]

Red Exodus:

Yes way are losing depth. You can only airdodge with momentum now, that is a heavy limit in terms of options in the air.

- Have you thought about this? Aerial play is near limitless now, because of this!!!

whoever:

Marth double fairs are hard?

- That's ridiculous!! One of the easiest successions of attacks in the game. Samus double missile is easy too. If you try it a dozen times, you've got it down forever! Things aren't complicated or nearly as difficult as they seem! It's just a matter of applying what you know accordingly.

Rx:

Regarding rock, paper, scissors.

- I know someone who is almost UNBEATABLE at it. It's nuts. After like three goes, he'll get you from there on!!! CRAZAI!!!

a lot of people:

I just doubt that any of them will add the same level of depth that Melee had.

- nothing will replace WDing. As well as there shouldn't be. This game has much more to offer than melee ever could.

BTW EVERYONE!
just a tid-bit I heard from various E4A goers.
- You know how to moonwalk, you dash and tilt the stick down and around? Well what I've gathered on that pivot/roll/tumble thing is by doing the opposite of that. Tilt the stick down a little as you begin to dash. That and some occasions where they were ducking and tried DDing out of it. This caused them to "stall" because they couldn't dash backwards out of the crouch and then the DDing movement in the other direction made them fall.

I've gathered that from people at E4A that said it happened to them and roughly what they were all doing or what every scenario had in common. And some vids, it can be seen.

Edit: this could be what the new crawling "ADVANCED TECHNIQUE!!!" is for


Just thought I'd throw that out there


Edit: I'm gonna apoligize to some people because I feel rude. I shouldn't say Marth double fairs being hard is ridiculous. I know a lot of people found that difficult. And Red Exodus, I hope you understand what I mean there by it expanding the play. Didn't want it to sound offensive or anything.
Just making sure everyone's happy.

 

[Crispy4001]

Dynamism, two things things.

-The new air dodge is more limited. Instead of being able to stall your momentum or push yourself in another direction you are now stuck follwing the same path as your jump. That absolutely takes away depth. Luckly in return we can now attack after the air dodge, but only time will tell if it's a good replacement. Quite frankly I think it's ridiculous that we can't have both.

- About the wavedash comment, Brawl doesn't offer more in terms of control over momentum. That's one area that Melee will reign supreme. For the compeditive player that means a lot considering Smash is all about placement.

 

[The Kirby Kong]

When two people misunderstand you the same way, you should try reiterating it in different words. Frankly, I don't see your last post as any form of cleanup to your previous one. Your previous post clearly displayed ignorance about the competitive community as you expressed desire for all the techniques that you don't like to be removed.

Sorry if I don't have the perfect vocabulary, but english is not my first language.
Anyway, I see you still don't understand me.

I'm just saying, even when removing these advanced techniques specifically, new ones will arise. That's just the nature of creating a game, the players themselves will always find things the designers didn't intend.

Let me ask you a question.
Do you want advanced techniques for the sake of competitive play?
Or do you specifically want Melee's advanced techniques for competitive play?

I'm fine with choice number 1, since it's obvious that new tricks will be found. So I don't care about wether or not Wavedashing and all that stuff will return. There's nothing to worry about for the competitive scene.

But hey, if you want Melee's tricks to return, that's fine... that's your preference, your opinion.

Just please don't butcher mine.

 

[Falzc0]

Sup ya'll. I guess I'm a casual player of smash, but I do use advanced techniques like wavedashing against my friends. I find it pretty kewl, because wavedashing gives you really fun movements.

I dont think that "advanced" movements implemented in Melee should be in Brawl because if you just look and hear the TV screen when you play, it gets pretty darn stupid. Marth sounds like he's getting humped and Falco seems to have a grunting problem. The smoke effects also kill the look and feel of the game.

Different "smoother" advanced techniques in Brawl would be a really nice addition, in alternative to the present Melee advanced techniques. If you see the J-shine discovered by one of the players during a Brawl demo, it seems pretty darn kewl to implement. Plus it doesn't look "glitched" like the other moves.

Coming from a casual Melee player, those are the types of things I'd like to see.

 

[Dynamism]

Dynamism, two things things.

-The new air dodge is more limited. Instead of being able to stall your momentum or push yourself in another direction you are now stuck follwing the same path as your jump. That absolutely takes away depth. Luckly in return we can now attack after the air dodge, but only time will tell if it's a good replacement. Quite frankly I think it's ridiculous that we can't have both.

- About the wavedash comment, Brawl doesn't offer more in terms of control over momentum. That's one area that Melee will reign supreme. For the compeditive player that means a lot considering Smash is all about placement.

- I think it'd be ridiculous to have both If they limited it to one air dodge until touching the ground (like a grapple) then that has a possiblity. But that would limit aerial play from the ability to dodge "more than once" which is the key purpose of the change. But that will only be a concious good or bad choice in time. The air dodge changing momentum really is quite usefull for many aspects of melee (even recovering and the mentioned spacing issues) Following the path of the current direction isn't disabling any placement though. It's just a different way of gaining in. Momentum air dodging was great for moving away, towards or through opponents. That is all still possible with a SHAD, but now it can be followed up with a mid-air attack. This opens more doors than the ones that close.

- I agree that smash has an extreem focus on spacing, placement and follow-through. Melee has imeasurable control over momentum with the likes of WDing, rolling, many specific attacks, DDing, double jumps, air dodges and even the victim with DI. Melee may revolve more around WDing than Brawl ever would. This game has more focus on air battle, flow and is generally a smoother game than the choppy and shifty ancestor. This game gives the user more control over the character when they take away all the buttons but the stick. That is enough, along with the regular reoccurring techniques and possible "tumbles", easy moonwalking, increased DI, more hitstun, etc...to bring and excel Brawl to a very placement oriented and controlled level. Brawls air dodges aid with these factors more than the air dodges in Melee would. And the same concept goes for Brawl air dodges in Melee.

I dont think that "advanced" movements implemented in Melee should be in Brawl because if you just look and hear the TV screen when you play, it gets pretty darn stupid. Marth sounds like he's getting humped and Falco seems to have a grunting problem. The smoke effects also kill the look and feel of the game.

hahaha so true. If WDing was in ssb3, they'd have to make the jump/dodge SOUNDS disapear with the animation.

Different "smoother" advanced techniques in Brawl would be a really nice addition, in alternative to the present Melee advanced techniques. If you see the J-shine discovered by one of the players during a Brawl demo, it seems pretty darn kewl to implement. Plus it doesn't look "out of place" like the other moves.

QFTruthiness
(get the reference anyone?)

Also Crispy4001, Yoshi losing DJC, can be a good thing And I like it!

and yeah, we know what you mean The Kirby Kong. Sometimes misinterpretations (I got that right, don't worry about the spelling lol) can cause hissy-fits!
What is your first language?

Edit/PS: totally irrelevant thought but my buddies are joining smash boards and we are gonna own the online smash world! W00T W00T!!

 

[Gundo]

I love to wavedash and do advanced techs that only the good can do.

however I do believe it shouldn't be in brawl. Since it does incorperate Wi-Fi, I believe that if there is any adv.Techs, that it should be shown in a video, kinda like the How-To-Play vid in ssbm, but unlockable after unlocking everything.

Just an idea.

but if wavedashing and such isnt "offical" in the game, I don't believe it should be in Brawl. just my opinion.

 

[Crispy4001]

The air dodge changing momentum really is quite usefull for many aspects of melee (even recovering and the mentioned spacing issues) Following the path of the current direction isn't disabling any placement though.

I really don't understand how you came to that conclusion. We're gaining the ability to perform an action after the airdodge in the place of extra control over placement. As I said, only time will tell if it's a worthy replacement.

- I agree that smash has an extreem focus on spacing, placement and follow-through. Melee has imeasurable control over momentum with the likes of WDing, rolling, many specific attacks, DDing, double jumps, air dodges and even the victim with DI. Melee may revolve more around WDing than Brawl ever would. This game has more focus on air battle, flow and is generally a smoother game than the choppy and shifty ancestor. This game gives the user more control over the character when they take away all the buttons but the stick. That is enough, along with the regular reoccurring techniques and possible "tumbles", easy moonwalking, increased DI, more hitstun, etc...to bring and excel Brawl to a very placement oriented and controlled level. Brawls air dodges aid with these factors more than the air dodges in Melee would. And the same concept goes for Brawl air dodges in Melee.

Brawl definately looks like it's going to have more emphasis on your influcence in the air, but it's also loosing the amount of control you had on the ground. I really doubt the new floatyness is going to be as effective for spacing purposes or as compelling to the compeditive player looking for depth. It's just another unnecessary trade off that I'm not so sure is for the better. I'd absolutely love Brawl to prove me wrong, but at this stage at least, I've got every reason to believe Melee will have the deeper end game. Not trying to drawing any conclusions, just going by what we know so far and what the developers have removed.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Edit: I'm gonna apoligize to some people because I feel rude. I shouldn't say Marth double fairs being hard is ridiculous. I know a lot of people found that difficult.

C'mon, give me some credit. I don't think double-fairs are hard-- but I DID think they were kind of tricky a few years ago when I was very first learning about advanced techs. My fingers just weren't quick enough yet. The first day I read about short-hopping attacks at all, I even found THAT a bit tricky, before I even thought about fast falls or l-cancels.

Maybe you're a prodigy who picked up it up the first time you tried, but things that seem simple to us now are hard for beginners. (I remember trying to learn to waveshines... oi. ) My point: it's very possible members of the development team didn't even realize Marth COULD double f-air, since the timing is so strict.

Some people like to define the criteria for something being a "glitch" or "unintended exploit" as being that the dev team hadn't explicitly thought of it. I disagree. There are a lot of things the dev team probably never thought of within the properly functioning bounds of their program-- this is just one hypothetical example.

 

[Red Exodus]

You [meaning people in general] shouldn't really write off glitches, I heard that combos started off as glitches in early fighting games and from there it took off, who knows what other glitches were modified for official use. You shouldn't bash something because it's a glitch, you should bash it based on how it's used. For example, you absolutely cannot win in Mario Kart DS if you don't snake. In melee you can beat people who wavedash and SHFFL and whatever else you can think of, the point is it's not gamebreaking but at the same time it creates depth that wouldn't exist if we only used move in the manual.

 

[Dynamism]

You [meaning people in general] shouldn't really write off glitches, I heard that combos started off as glitches in early fighting games and from there it took off, who knows what other glitches were modified for official use. You shouldn't bash something because it's a glitch, you should bash it based on how it's used. For example, you absolutely cannot win in Mario Kart DS if you don't snake. In melee you can beat people who wavedash and SHFFL and whatever else you can think of, the point is it's not gamebreaking but at the same time it creates depth that wouldn't exist if we only used move in the manual.

QFT
Combos started in games like street fighter. But smash is a little unique in that it was made for combos. Hence the rag-doll feel.

C'mon, give me some credit. I don't think double-fairs are hard-- but I DID think they were kind of tricky a few years ago when I was very first learning about advanced techs. My fingers just weren't quick enough yet. The first day I read about short-hopping attacks at all, I even found THAT a bit tricky, before I even thought about fast falls or l-cancels.

Maybe you're a prodigy who picked up it up the first time you tried, but things that seem simple to us now are hard for beginners. (I remember trying to learn to waveshines... oi. ) My point: it's very possible members of the development team didn't even realize Marth COULD double f-air, since the timing is so strict.

Some people like to define the criteria for something being a "glitch" or "unintended exploit" as being that the dev team hadn't explicitly thought of it. I disagree. There are a lot of things the dev team probably never thought of within the properly functioning bounds of their program-- this is just one hypothetical example.

I see your point on how they didn't mean for that specifically. But I don't think they thought about NOT having double fairs. Same way I don't think they thought about NOT having the ICs controllably desynch.

Those are weird gimmicks that aren't glitches, but are what makes characters have advantages/disadvantages in the long run.

And yeah, I was a bit of a prodigy lol. I make a living with listening/watching and timing. So it makes sense how I got Samus to superWD the first time I tried it

I really don't understand how you came to that conclusion. We're gaining the ability to perform an action after the airdodge in the place of extra control over placement. As I said, only time will tell if it's a worthy replacement.




Brawl definately looks like it's going to have more emphasis on your influcence in the air, but it's also loosing the amount of control you had on the ground. I really doubt the new floatyness is going to be as effective for spacing purposes or as compelling to the compeditive player looking for depth. It's just another unnecessary trade off that I'm not so sure is for the better. I'd absolutely love Brawl to prove me wrong, but at this stage at least, I've got every reason to believe Melee will have the deeper end game. Not trying to drawing any conclusions, just going by what we know so far and what the developers have removed.

Yeah, no sense in debating this at the moment. I think it will, I guess we can just hope it will.

It may have a deeper end game in terms of mobility on the ground. I agree. But I still think melee relied so much on quick ground transitions (ala WD) where as Brawl will be even more focused on timing, rather than placing. Placing will still be a main factor but WDing wouldn't be as effective in the brawl format. I'm sure the Brawl end game will be just as great as melee, but not as focused on a few ATs like WDing and CCing. LCing is replaced with FFCing and WDing is replaced with CDDing or whatever that fall thing is lol

I'm happy either way really. Depth or no depth, the game will have its tricks.