Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[Paranoid_Android]

There needs to be some way for skilled players to completely annihilate the uninitiated - Some medium for the asskicking. Something that makes you better than the rest. There needs to be a SHFFL equivalent, there needs to be a wavedash replacement. There needs to be a L cancel clone. And if they happen to be the same as they were, that's fine. There just needs to be something to keep the competitive community alive: Room for competition. Skill.

 

[Takeshi245]

Paranoid Andriod's right. There has to be at least something in Brawl that takes skill to do like the advanced techniques that set apart players of different skill. I'm not worried about the game being shallow, but if I happen to find out it is, I'm returning it. Advanced techniques were the reason why I got back into Smash since playing it was more fun and interesting to me.

 

[Adi]

Regardless mindgames will also be a factor, albeit that this can only take you so far if your actions are limited to slow dash attacks and smashes.

 

[Ridgeman]

It would make sense that most if not all of the techs stayed, and that new ones based on different physics became available.

 

[Gannondorf the fifth]

SWD. Keep it. lol

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Paranoid Andriod's right. There has to be at least something in Brawl that takes skill to do like the advanced techniques that set apart players of different skill. I'm not worried about the game being shallow, but if I happen to find out it is, I'm returning it. Advanced techniques were the reason why I got back into Smash since playing it was more fun and interesting to me.

I trust the game even less than you do

Im not even buying it, Im gonna wait to see what the good folks from the competitive melee scene think of it, especially in my own town (montreal)

If its good, then my friend will probably buy a wii and brawl. Im pretty broke lol I dont see myself affording a new console. Game, maybe, but not a console.

No matter what I will eventually buy brawl, if theres no depth in the multiplayer, itll still be fun to mess around with, its smash afterall.

Im never going to stop playing melee though, and neither are a lot of you. Melee is a great game.

 

[cubaisdeath]

I trust the game even less than you do

Im not even buying it, Im gonna wait to see what the good folks from the competitive melee scene think of it, especially in my own town (montreal)

If its good, then my friend will probably buy a wii and brawl. Im pretty broke lol I dont see myself affording a new console. Game, maybe, but not a console.

No matter what I will eventually buy brawl, if theres no depth in the multiplayer, itll still be fun to mess around with, its smash after all.

Im never going to stop playing melee though, and neither are a lot of you. Melee is a great game.

I know at work (I work at a local game store that ISN'T game stop) when brawl comes out that sucker is going straight into the store wii...and after we unlock the characters, and find out it sucks...we're putting melee right back in. I have faith in the game though, but it will take some time to learn new techniques and whatnot. So far, there are only 3 things that bother me about the game. 1. Petey Piranha's appearance PERIOD. 2. Zero Suit Samus possibly being playable through only a final smash technique. and 3. Mario's down b. I mean, come on...what the ****?

 

[Takeshi245]

I know at work (I work at a local game store that ISN'T game stop) when brawl comes out that sucker is going straight into the store wii...and after we unlock the characters, and find out it sucks...we're putting melee right back in. I have faith in the game though, but it will take some time to learn new techniques and whatnot. So far, there are only 3 things that bother me about the game. 1. Petey Piranha's appearance PERIOD. 2. Zero Suit Samus possibly being playable through only a final smash technique. and 3. Mario's down b. I mean, come on...what the ****?

There's a very high chance dair (for those of you who don't know, it's an abbreviation for down air) will be the Mario tornado. It's nothing to get worried about. Guys, what options do you think crawling will have in accordance with advanced techniques?

 

[Adi]

It is a superficial to not buy a game because of certain characters or attacks. They are a bunch of wireframes and hitboxes, what difference does it make what graphics they use for them. What really does matter however is the mechanics and how deep the metagame of Brawl develops.

 

[cubaisdeath]

There's a very high chance dair (for those of you who don't know, it's an abbreviation for down air) will be the Mario tornado. It's nothing to get worried about. Guys, what options do you think crawling will have in accordance with advanced techniques?

yeah, i think its his dair too, from watching the trailer anyways...I wonder if you have to tap A to make him go higher? or if it will be like SSB64 and you can spike with it too XD. I was just saying that I liked Mario's previous move set, but whatever, I probably will be trying out new characters before I return to my old favs.

I don't know what to think about crawling really. firstly, I want to know how to get into the crawl position (probably a button or just double tap down). Then from there I want to know if there are crawling techniques, such as standard crawl attack, crawl smash, or crawl special. I already know only certain characters will be able to crawl, but if you can do techniques with those characters, what will they do/how will it affect their edge guarding? personally, I think it would be cool if snakes crawl special was like, shooting the tranquilizer gun and putting foes to sleep mid jump XD

 

[Takeshi245]

yeah, i think its his dair too, from watching the trailer anyways...I wonder if you have to tap A to make him go higher? or if it will be like SSB64 and you can spike with it too XD. I was just saying that I liked Mario's previous move set, but whatever, I probably will be trying out new characters before I return to my old favs.

I don't know what to think about crawling really. firstly, I want to know how to get into the crawl position (probably a button or just double tap down). Then from there I want to know if there are crawling techniques, such as standard crawl attack, crawl smash, or crawl special. I already know only certain characters will be able to crawl, but if you can do techniques with those characters, what will they do/how will it affect their edge guarding? personally, I think it would be cool if snakes crawl special was like, shooting the tranquilizer gun and putting foes to sleep mid jump XD

That might be a special move, too. I do think that mashing the A button will help to get vertical height.

 

[SilintNinjya]

its possible that some of the melee advanced techs will be gone. i personally hope to see the jcshine removed (and i play as falco so i know how much it will suck to not have it)...but it kills some of the balance.

then again, there will be NEW techniques to learn. so sure, some of our favs will be gone, but some of the new ones will remain.

 

[Psydon]

All it takes is a little thought, as to whether or not advanced techs will be in Brawl. Remember that a lot of the advanced techs are essentially unofficial tricks (as in, they exploit the programming for their existence, unlike, for example, wavedashing), and whether or not they are removed in Brawl depends primarily on N(intendo) actually finding out about them in the first place, and then on their desire to eliminate them (which isn't so hard to figure out in most cases).

Tumble Cancel (when you move the stick back and forth and stop your tumble in the air): I have a feeling that even if N did find out about this, they'd keep it, especially since Sakurai said that air battles will be more important in Brawl.

Crouch Cancelling: Probably not.

Jump Cancel Grab: Hmmmm...maybe? It's not like this is the most important of advanced techs.

Dash Attack Cancel Grab: See Jump Cancel Grab.

Dash Cancel: See Crouch Cancel.

Dash Dancing: Not a chance. They wouldn't be able to remove this anyway, as it's just an advanced application of one of the game's simplest moves.

DI: See Dash Dancing.

Edge Invincibility (not an advanced technique but a lot of people want to see this removed for Brawl): I doubt this is going anywhere. Yeah, people abuse it, but consider what the game would be like if those precious frames didn't exist.

Fast Falling: This was carried over from the original. It's here to stay.

Dashing-Into-Up/Down Smash: See Crouch Cancel.

The Shine: Oh, how I hope this one gets removed! And how I hope the Reflector gets a delay so that Shine combos become impossible!

L-Cancelling: See Crouch Cancel.

Edge Hop: Not at all.

Missile Cancelling for Samus (and similar moves for other characters): See L-Cancelling.

Power Shielding: Nope. Not only is that something they intentionally placed, it's so tough to do it would be stupid to remove it.

Shieldgrabbing: This is a pretty broken move; I guess it ought to be removed. Or, maybe for Brawl being able to cancel or reverse throws could be included to make it more fair.

Shorthop: Nah.

Teching: Nah.

Wavedashing: Considering the widespread usage of this tactic, I'd be surprised if N didn't find out about it. And you know what? If they did, I am positive they would immediately remove it. They would NEVER want people to move faster than their dashes.

 

[Red Exodus]

Speculation, speculation...

They should all stay. If scrubs don't like they don't have to use them. It's just that simple.

 

[SilintNinjya]

psydon, l-cancel is in ssb64. its called the z-cancel though.

 

[Psydon]

Even so. That doesn't necessarily mean they realized what it is. Remember that the core gameplay is the same so to an extent SSB and Melee would be similarly coded. It could've just slipped in. Or, perhaps they do know about it and are okay with it. Whatever the reason I don't think L-cancelling will go anywhere in Brawl.

 

[heety9]

The N64 one Rocks!

 

[Betaz]

well considering it is highly likely that they will be using the same code for some of the returning characters only different animations and a few add in's to the code such as glideing, the foot-stool jump ect.
Many of the advanced techs will still be in i'm thinking l-canceling and things like that.... as for wavedashing well... lets just say it will most likely be an incredibly hard thing to fix in the characters code not to mention finding the problem.
I'm also thinking it would be somewhere in the code for the characters traction as well as somewhere in the air dodging(mostly in the air dodgeing for the l-cancle) and even if they do find it, they completely have to revise the code which could lead to future problems. As for the character code being completely scrapped from the other games and them completely remaking it... well lets just say i don't think it would be coming out in December then.

 

[Crazy Ace 01]

Completely ignoring the whole thread, I think that most of the advanced techniques in Melee will not carry over to Brawl because they are using a new physics engine. The techniques were all based off of manipulation of holes in the old engine. Of course, there will still be holes, but it will take time and practice to find them, just like in Melee. In a few years we will probably have new techniques for Brawl with similar names if the techniques are similar and new names if they aren't. Part of the fun of the advanced techniques is the challenge of learning them. I want to learn something new in Brawl, not just repeat old stuff. Change is good! Variety is the spice of life! [insert other cliched quotation here]

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

The techniques were all based off of manipulation of holes in the old engine.

Pray tell, aside from wavedashing, which techniques are ''manipulation of holes in the engine''

L cancelling was programmed into the game, so was spot dodging, so was crouch cancelling, Dashdancing is just a fancy way of saying ''going back and forth really fast''

We might lose jump cancelled grabs, im not sure how those work, I hope they stay though. JC grabs >>>> dash grabs.

 

[Team Giza]

Completely ignoring the whole thread, I think that most of the advanced techniques in Melee will not carry over to Brawl because they are using a new physics engine. The techniques were all based off of manipulation of holes in the old engine.

Actually many are not manipulations of the games engine. I can see edge cancels and possibly wavedashing leaving us. But when it comes to power shielding, fast falling, l-canceling, and edgehopping... I think they will all be back. All the other tactics were put into melee purposely or they didn't care enough to take them out (since a large portion of them were in SSB64).

However, knowing what Nintendo does sometimes I wouldn't be surprised to see wavedashing back. They know it exists now and they know there are a lot of people who enjoy it. They brought us l-cancelling in melee after z-cancelling in 64. They also often brought back techniques like snaking in the mario kart games. I wouldn't be too surprised to see wavedashing again in brawl regardless of a physics engine change.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

However, knowing what Nintendo does sometimes I wouldn't be surprised to see wavedashing back. They know it exists now and they know there are a lot of people who enjoy it. They brought us l-cancelling in melee after z-cancelling in brawl. They also often brought back techniques like snaking in the mario kart games. I wouldn't be too surprised to see wavedashing again in brawl regardless of a physics engine change.

Post made me smile. You are entitled to 1 free cookie

*hands cupon*

Oreo only, no chocolate chips, Final destination.

 

[Circus]

Post made me smile. You are entitled to 1 free cookie

*hands cupon*

Oreo only, no chocolate chips, Final destination.

I had a good giggle at that one.

*quietly moonwalks back out of thread, never to be seen again*

 

[Team Giza]

I trust the game even less than you do

Im not even buying it, Im gonna wait to see what the good folks from the competitive melee scene think of it, especially in my own town (montreal)

Im never going to stop playing melee though, and neither are a lot of you. Melee is a great game.

It is Super Turbo to Next Generation all over again. Oh yes. I like where this is going.

Post made me smile. You are entitled to 1 free cookie

*hands cupon*

Oreo only, no chocolate chips, Final destination.

OH NO YOU DON'T!

Coconut only, white chocolate on very high, brinstar depths! :bandit:

 

[SiD]

well considering it is highly likely that they will be using the same code for some of the returning characters only different animations and a few add in's to the code such as glideing, the foot-stool jump ect.
Many of the advanced techs will still be in i'm thinking l-canceling and things like that.... as for wavedashing well... lets just say it will most likely be an incredibly hard thing to fix in the characters code not to mention finding the problem.
I'm also thinking it would be somewhere in the code for the characters traction as well as somewhere in the air dodging(mostly in the air dodgeing for the l-cancle) and even if they do find it, they completely have to revise the code which could lead to future problems. As for the character code being completely scrapped from the other games and them completely remaking it... well lets just say i don't think it would be coming out in December then.

Most definitely they are redoing the code, but even if they're not, it isnt the characters that cause wavedashing, it's the physics engine. Therefore, it very well may not return, since Brawl definitely has a new physics engine, possible Havok.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

whoops, deleted

 

[Caael]

People boycotting Brawl if it doesn't have Wavedashing in it is just way too childish... Grow up, games aren't built JUST FOR YOU, they are built to advance on what was potentially a good game to begin with, that's why there are sequels of games, do you think that if the original Smash wasn't a hit, they would've made another, NO!, stop complaining about "oh my god, no wavedashing, i won't play it".. ppl like you are saddening really, a new game, a new way to play is how it'll be, if wavedashing or any other advanced technique returns... who is to say that Wavedashing won't be replaced by another advanced technique we discover in 2 years or something, then what, oh well wavedashing is in the game but ppl found something better, what will you do then since you love your WD that much, will you drop ur WDing and learn the new tech or will you not even bother with the new tech and stick with WD

QFT!

I really dont care about advanced techniques in Brawl, the only one I use is wavedash, and I dont see how it helps.

 

[Takeshi245]

QFT!

I really dont care about advanced techniques in Brawl, the only one I use is wavedash, and I dont see how it helps.

http://www.smashwiki.com/wiki/Wavedashing Here you go. Advanced techniques help to add depth to the game. Team Giza does have a point with what he said. It could be left as a special treat for us or he could announce it publicly like the transition of Z-cancelling in SSB to L-cancelling in Melee.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I still cannot fathom the whole argument that advanced techniques were "unintended abuses of the game physics". The game sets the rules, and then we are free to do as we please. Did the inventor of ping pong intend for players to start applying spin to the ball? Did the creator of basketball intend for players to dribble-fake into a shot? Did the first tennis player slice the ball? Let's examine this a bit closer, shall we? Why do soccer players do back flips to shoot the ball? The original creator probably never envisioned players becoming that radical in their play style. Well, the rule is that players cannot touch the ball with their hands/arms. So, since the human head has an overall week lever, players started inverting their bodies to shoot the ball at high speeds with their legs from a place where opponents are unlikely to be able to intercept: in the middle of the air. Is this tactic broken? Should it have been banned from tournaments since it was never intended to be there? Of course not. In this example, we see that soccer has evolved into an extremely competitive sport where virtually every country has put forth a team of its best players!

So, bringing this full circle back to smash, it is OK to avoid advanced tactics. No one is forcing anyone to learn how to wavedash, lag-cancel, etc. Play the game at your own pace! However, when the rest of us start learning how to win at all costs, do not complain that we are violating the original "intent" of the creators. If you want a game with explicit rules that reflect the intent of the creator, play a board game. >_>

 

[Falco&Victory]

I still cannot fathom the whole argument that advanced techniques were "unintended abuses of the game physics". The game sets the rules, and then we are free to do as we please. Did the inventor of ping pong intend for players to start applying spin to the ball? Did the creator of basketball intend for players to dribble-fake into a shot? Did the first tennis player slice the ball? Let's examine this a bit closer, shall we? Why do soccer players do back flips to shoot the ball? The original creator probably never envisioned players becoming that radical in their play style. Well, the rule is that players cannot touch the ball with their hands/arms. So, since the human head has an overall week lever, players started inverting their bodies to shoot the ball at high speeds with their legs from a place where opponents are unlikely to be able to intercept: in the middle of the air. Is this tactic broken? Should it have been banned from tournaments since it was never intended to be there? Of course not. In this example, we see that soccer has evolved into an extremely competitive sport where virtually every country has put forth a team of its best players!

So, bringing this full circle back to smash, it is OK to avoid advanced tactics. No one is forcing anyone to learn how to wavedash, lag-cancel, etc. Play the game at your own pace! However, when the rest of us start learning how to win at all costs, do not complain that we are violating the original "intent" of the creators. If you want a game with explicit rules that reflect the intent of the creator, play a board game. >_>

QFT, and again, QFTfullness

The problem is people aren't going to admit they're wrong, they'll just flame more

 

[psicicle]

QFT!

I really dont care about advanced techniques in Brawl, the only one I use is wavedash, and I dont see how it helps.

QFF quoted for false

because I don't think it is childish to choose not to buy a game you don't like

 

[SirroMinus1]

this is a no brainer. if the old ones dont. we will end up finding new ones out

 

[opabinia]

if this game doesn't have wavedashing in it i will buy three copies for every person who says they will boycott it then i will mail them to their houses and be all like PLAY THE GAME

 

[Jaykizzle]

you know what.......


JUST PLAY THE ****ING GAME

honestly this whole thing on WD is dividing the community

smash was made for fun not for freaking egos

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

JayKizzle? That...that was beautiful...*sniff*

*begins slow applause*

 

[h1roshi]

no matter what brawl had it doesnt matter. we will make new ones, find new loopholes, glitches, tactics, etc. we cant think of it as a spruced up melee cuz then we are going to be disappointed when certain things are missing. you have to see brawl as a brand new game, with nothing to compare it to. that way, the game we get is what we get. we wont have to worry about crap like, "oh, this isnt in anymore". we will learn how to evolve brawls gameplay as time goes on and it will become its own great game with its own advanced metagame. dont worry about it, brawl will be ridiculous...peace

-hiroshi

 

[specialsauce]

ok well i think alot of people are mising the fact that brawl and melee arnt gonna be the same game, how do u know that wavedashin will even be "needed" in brawl. its not the same game so u really cant compare it to anything, the advanced techniques in melee were glitches and things found within the game and like H1ROSHI said brawl will have its own advanced techniques, when melee came out no one was thinking about wavedashing etc brawl will be fine and people will develop new tactics it'll all be good just wait.

 

[Timat the Slayer]

I still cannot fathom the whole argument that advanced techniques were "unintended abuses of the game physics". The game sets the rules, and then we are free to do as we please. Did the inventor of ping pong intend for players to start applying spin to the ball? Did the creator of basketball intend for players to dribble-fake into a shot? Did the first tennis player slice the ball? Let's examine this a bit closer, shall we? Why do soccer players do back flips to shoot the ball? The original creator probably never envisioned players becoming that radical in their play style. Well, the rule is that players cannot touch the ball with their hands/arms. So, since the human head has an overall week lever, players started inverting their bodies to shoot the ball at high speeds with their legs from a place where opponents are unlikely to be able to intercept: in the middle of the air. Is this tactic broken? Should it have been banned from tournaments since it was never intended to be there? Of course not. In this example, we see that soccer has evolved into an extremely competitive sport where virtually every country has put forth a team of its best players!

So, bringing this full circle back to smash, it is OK to avoid advanced tactics. No one is forcing anyone to learn how to wavedash, lag-cancel, etc. Play the game at your own pace! However, when the rest of us start learning how to win at all costs, do not complain that we are violating the original "intent" of the creators. If you want a game with explicit rules that reflect the intent of the creator, play a board game. >_>

You, sir, Win.

All people should read this man's words of wisdom, and praise him for the god among men that he is.

That was by far, the best explanation of standard advanced techniques I've ever seen. I will record this in the Imperial Scrolls of Honor (please do not turn off the system).

But seriously, he has an amazing point there. If games had rules against it, they'd be in the game. If it was a 'glitch', there'd be some kinda programming problem, and why would every character be able to do it with their different physics? Your argument is null! Void! ..Bad! If you choose not to use it, that's fine, but don't complain that you aren't adapting to a changing play style.

You are human right? Not a computer? So then why aren't you adapting to survive?
"YOU MUST RECOVER!" ~~ Sakurai

 

[Team Giza]

People boycotting Brawl if it doesn't have Wavedashing in it is just way too childish... Grow up, games aren't built JUST FOR YOU, they are built to advance on what was potentially a good game to begin with, that's why there are sequels of games, do you think that if the original Smash wasn't a hit, they would've made another, NO!, stop complaining about "oh my god, no wavedashing, i won't play it".. ppl like you are saddening really, a new game, a new way to play is how it'll be, if wavedashing or any other advanced technique returns... who is to say that Wavedashing won't be replaced by another advanced technique we discover in 2 years or something, then what, oh well wavedashing is in the game but ppl found something better, what will you do then since you love your WD that much, will you drop ur WDing and learn the new tech or will you not even bother with the new tech and stick with WD

Well... ya see... some people didn't buy Melee because of stupid Nintendo character in a glorious battle of fan service. Some of us bought it for the fun and deep gameplay that the game promised. Seriously, I never really cared for many of the series whose the characters hailed from. I bought it due to the fun competitive gameplay that the game gave. Would I have bought the game if Melee was very shallow? ... No. Wavedashing added to the depth of the game but I ain't too afraid if it leaves. However, some people really enjoyed the depth it gave and would be think that the game wouldn't be fun without the options it gave.

Heck, why pay $50 for a game that you aren't going to really enjoy playing?

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

If it was a 'glitch', there'd be some kinda programming problem, and why would every character be able to do it with their different physics?

It is a programming problem, like stated many times. Just because it doesn't f-ck up the game it doesn't mean it ISN'T a glitch. Look at the infinite dragon punch in the Fist of the North Star arcade game and you'll see exactly what I mean. Whether it helps you or not, it's still a flaw in the physics and isn't considered to be a true technique in the actual game itself (compared to a few others like L-Cancelling). Either you like it or not, when people wavedash they exploit a flaw in the physics, and honestly I'm perfectly fine with it. Exploit a glitch if you want to make yourself feel better and think you have achieved something, perfectly fine with me, really.