Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[jambre]

personally i do not mind if they take out wavedashing, though i hope they keep teching, short hops (i think kirby does one with his forward air in a video), l cancels and DI.

 

[psicicle]

if this game doesn't have wavedashing in it i will buy three copies for every person who says they will boycott it then i will mail them to their houses and be all like PLAY THE GAME

Ill take you up on that offer. Ummm brawl sucks?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Exploit a glitch if you want to make yourself feel better and think you have achieved something, perfectly fine with me, really.

I was perfectly content with your statement up until this little rant at the end. Exploit a glitch if you want to make yourself feel better? Think you have achieved something? You just announced how unskilled you are at Melee. If exploiting glitches is a way to make yourself seem cool then the world's best smashers must really have no skill. As for your wavedashing example, what about wavedash-to-edge-hog? What about ledge-dash to neutral-air? What wave-landing to forward-smash?

 

[NES n00b]

Don't bother Buzz. 4chan people don't listen.

I do feel smarter everytime they post. That you can definitely fault me on. . . .not using wavedashing to help me win in a videogame.

Edit: Brawl sucks so hard. . . . . . . . wah wah, I want wavedashing. Where is my free copy? >_>

 

[Takeshi245]

I don't like the way ignorant people want to make suggests to make Brawl a shallow game.

 

[SiD]

I don't like the way ignorant people want to make suggests to make Brawl a shallow game.

Not everyone shares your opinions about what makes a game shallow, don't be a condescending prick. It isn't ignorant to think differently than you.

 

[Takeshi245]

Not everyone shares your opinions about what makes a game shallow, don't be a condescending prick. It isn't ignorant to think differently than you.

People want advanced techniques out for stupid reasons. "Oh, he beat me because he knew how to wavedash." Don't go up against that guy or get better at the game so you can beat him. Just because you know advanced techniques doesn't mean you good. It's how you use them that makes the difference.

 

[SiD]

Okay, true, but I want wavedashing out for other reasons. I can wavedash just fine, I don't think it's cheap, I just don't personally like the way it changes the game. Is it fine in Melee? Yes. But I don't want Melee 2.0, I want Brawl to play somewhat differently, give me a fresh experience instead of the same thing with new chars, and wavedashing forces the game to be played a certain way that I would like to play differently for the next game.

I understand the arguments for wavedashing and they do make a lot of sense, this is just my opinion. Does that make me ignorant? I don't think so. I think removing wavedashing could possibly make the game deeper, making mindgames harder to accomplish in some ways and to me, I think it would be ultimately more fun that way. But that's just me.

 

[Takeshi245]

Okay, true, but I want wavedashing out for other reasons. I can wavedash just fine, I don't think it's cheap, I just don't personally like the way it changes the game. Is it fine in Melee? Yes. But I don't want Melee 2.0, I want Brawl to play somewhat differently, give me a fresh experience instead of the same thing with new chars, and wavedashing forces the game to be played a certain way that I would like to play differently for the next game.

I understand the arguments for wavedashing and they do make a lot of sense, this is just my opinion. Does that make me ignorant? I don't think so. I think removing wavedashing could possibly make the game deeper, making mindgames harder to accomplish in some ways and to me, I think it would be ultimately more fun that way. But that's just me.

Spacing would be harder without wavedashing, which I can deal with, but a lot of things force you to play a certain way in a game besides wavedashing. At least you're not one of those people that think advanced techniques suck the fun out of the game. Wavedashing adds depth to the game, by the way.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

I was perfectly content with your statement up until this little rant at the end.

Too bad.

Exploit a glitch if you want to make yourself feel better? Think you have achieved something?

Yes and yes.

You just announced how unskilled you are at Melee.

Oh yeah, I mean, obviously since I'm pointing out a fact it makes me completely unskilled at playing the game even though it has nothing to do with it, you got me there!

If exploiting glitches is a way to make yourself seem cool then the world's best smashers must really have no skill.

Depends, it doesn't take skill to master wavedashing nor is it a skill, in my experience. It only took me about twenty minutes to simply figure out how to wavedash normally, I don't see the fuss about how hard it is. I used to wavedash normally and done all of the other techniques it spawn (some listed in your quote below), and honestly I couldn't feel good about myself knowing I'll turn out to be some idiot who thinks wavedashing is the best skill ever even though it's completely cheap and make myself feel better and cool thinking that using advanced techniques makes me a good player. I focus more on the timing of my moves or attacks more than anything else.

As for your wavedashing example, what about wavedash-to-edge-hog? What about ledge-dash to neutral-air? What wave-landing to forward-smash?

What about them?

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Don't bother Buzz. 4chan people don't listen.

Yeah they do. How else would they be able to troll and anger you so efficiently?

 

[SiD]

Spacing would be harder without wavedashing, which I can deal with, but a lot of things force you to play a certain way in a game besides wavedashing. At least you're not one of those people that think advanced techniques suck the fun out of the game. Wavedashing adds depth to the game, by the way.

In your opinion. I think it's possible to have more strategy to the game without wavedashing. Again, just a theory, not trying to claim this as fact. I just don't like the way you said that matter of factly, "Wavedashing adds depth to the game, by the way."

 

[Takeshi245]

In your opinion. I think it's possible to have more strategy to the game without wavedashing. Again, just a theory, not trying to claim this as fact. I just don't like the way you said that matter of factly, "Wavedashing adds depth to the game, by the way."

Because it does. It was just something I wanted to add. I wasn't trying to personally attack you.

 

[Vortok]

The irritating thing I see when people say it would suck without wavedashing is this: You basically come off as saying you're not a skilled enough gamer to find another way to be good at the game.

L cancelling will be in, as it was in the 64 version and if it was a glitch, it would've been removed in Melee.

Teching will be in - computers do it all the time so it was definately programmed into the game.

Same with short hops - those had to be specifically programmed in.

DI seems almost certain to me. It also has to be programmed. One could argue that it may just be leftover mechanics that allow people to get back to the stage when they're knocked off without using a jump to change direction/momentum, but it seems like it was intentional (though, as some people say, the higher level computers aren't nearly as good at it as low levels, in some cases) so it's hard to say on that.

I hope that chain-throwing is successfully eradicated, as well as any type of infinites.

Wavedashing isn't gamebreaking. It doesn't make you invincible or godlike. I don't see any reason to take it out, but I won't mind if it is removed.

I didn't learn about Melee's advanced techniques until late into its lifespan, and I haven't devoted a ton of effort to perfecting them simply because I expect the way that we play to change in Brawl (just like a ton of stuff changed from Smash 64 to Melee), so I'll have to relearn it all anyways.

 

[will388]

they wont take out wavedash..

1) snake wavedashes in one of the videos (he does a dodge roll, then wavedash, then a rocket to the ground)
2) to stop all the people who cant take 5 minutes to learn how to wavedash, all they have to do is for online game options, have a option to switch off wavedash

everything else shouldnt even be talked about, everything is gonna be in.. and people that say wavedashing doesnt add to the game, are the people that dont know how to use it, or cant do it

 

[Takeshi245]

they wont take out wavedash..

1) snake wavedashes in one of the videos (he does a dodge roll, then wavedash, then a rocket to the ground)
2) to stop all the people who cant take 5 minutes to learn how to wavedash, all they have to do is for online game options, have a option to switch off wavedash

everything else shouldnt even be talked about, everything is gonna be in.. and people that say wavedashing doesnt add to the game, are the people that dont know how to use it, or cant do it

Snake didn't wavedash. He walked, then did the rocket. Wavedashing is a physics exploit and I highly doubt you would have an option to change the physics engine of the game. I wouldn't mind if wavedashing wasn't in Brawl, but I don't like removing it for the sake of removing it.

 

[SiD]

Snake didn't wavedash. He walked, then did the rocket. Wavedashing is a physics exploit and I highly doubt you would have an option to change the physics engine of the game. I wouldn't mind if wavedashing wasn't in Brawl, but I don't like removing it for the sake of removing it.

Yeah I don't necessarily think they should remove it, because of the competitive scene and all, I'll just personally be happy if it isn't in. And to be honest, I don't think it will come back unless they specifically want to put it in, what with a new engine and all.

 

[PIT_IS_BACK]

No washdash = Pros will **** you
Washdash = Pros will **** you harder.

 

[psicicle]

Too bad.

Yes and yes.

Oh yeah, I mean, obviously since I'm pointing out a fact it makes me completely unskilled at playing the game even though it has nothing to do with it, you got me there!

Depends, it doesn't take skill to master wavedashing nor is it a skill, in my experience. It only took me about twenty minutes to simply figure out how to wavedash normally, I don't see the fuss about how hard it is. I used to wavedash normally and done all of the other techniques it spawn (some listed in your quote below), and honestly I couldn't feel good about myself knowing I'll turn out to be some idiot who thinks wavedashing is the best skill ever even though it's completely cheap and make myself feel better and cool thinking that using advanced techniques makes me a good player. I focus more on the timing of my moves or attacks more than anything else.

What about them?

So... it is cheap yet if you use it to beat people you only think you are a good player.

If you win more when you use it, you are a better player...

and while it doesn't take much skill to master the act of wavedashing it does take skill to use it right.

Play a good IC or fox main and you may see some of its merits. I main both BTW

 

[Takeshi245]

Yeah I don't necessarily think they should remove it, because of the competitive scene and all, I'll just personally be happy if it isn't in. And to be honest, I don't think it will come back unless they specifically want to put it in, what with a new engine and all.

You have a point. Chances are wavedashing won't be in Brawl. Well...at least there's the chance of L-cancelling and new techniques. Then again, I remember reading this thread about Nintendo leaving some old stuff for the veterans like snaking in the Mario Kart games and such.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Oh yeah, I mean, obviously since I'm pointing out a fact it makes me completely unskilled at playing the game even though it has nothing to do with it, you got me there!

It's not a fact. You are making stuff up.

Depends, it doesn't take skill to master wavedashing nor is it a skill, in my experience. It only took me about twenty minutes to simply figure out how to wavedash normally, I don't see the fuss about how hard it is. I used to wavedash normally and done all of the other techniques it spawn (some listed in your quote below), and honestly I couldn't feel good about myself knowing I'll turn out to be some idiot who thinks wavedashing is the best skill ever even though it's completely cheap and make myself feel better and cool thinking that using advanced techniques makes me a good player. I focus more on the timing of my moves or attacks more than anything else.

What about them?

You don't go to tournaments, do you? The way you talk strongly suggests you've never tried to use all the advanced techniques under heavy pressure. If you are not a tournament-goer then stop posting. You have no idea what you are talking about. "Cheap" is a term for any tactic that beats you. If you lose to it, and you can't handle it, you call it "cheap". Everyone does. ZOMG You time your moves and attacks? You are amazing. That is what we call a BASIC technique.

EDIT -- I didn't even notice that psicicle already responded for me. Listen to what he said, too.

 

[Lightshade]

Yes, I know that this topic has been done to death, but I just wanted to bring it to some people's attention .

If it's been done to death then that obviously means people don't:
-care about it
-talked about it already

thread over. If you really want to continue this, go look at the older topics.

 

[greenblob]

If they ignore wavedashing entirely, it'll be in, assuming that they keep the basic physics and gameplay mechanics (air dodge, sliding when landing).
Otherwise I think that it'll most likely follow the path of L-canceling.

 

[NES n00b]

Yeah they do. How else would they be able to troll and anger you so efficiently?

>_> LOL

They hardly ever respond to my posts. They suck at trolling and they never make me angry. The fact is that they fail. I don't have to be angry to point that out.

Edit: GA Wes arguing about the banning of Wobbling pissed me off way more than 4chan ever did. That is how sad they are.

2nd Edit: What are you talking about Vortec? Some characters will suck without wavedashing or won't be as useful, but then everyone would change characters or whatever and use dash dancing and pivoting. No one will suddenly become bad without wavedashing.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

You have a point. Chances are wavedashing won't be in Brawl. Well...at least there's the chance of L-cancelling and new techniques. Then again, I remember reading this thread about Nintendo leaving some old stuff for the veterans like snaking in the Mario Kart games and such.

takeshi you are a master spammer i respect your spamming i mean you joined only a couple months and your a smash lord must be good to get flamed then repost the same thing over and over.

on subject: If you can't wave dash go eat a cookie practise and learn who cares.

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

Dunno if this has been brought up before, but wth:

You must keep in mind that Nintendo did not plan on most of melee's advanced techniques. Having said that, regardless of whether they prevent melee's advanced techniques from being performed, there will be new ones found. Brawl will obviously be opening us up to many new styles of play and types of moves, which of course, will be molded together into brawl's own set of advanced technques.

It'll come full circle.

 

[Banks]

if air dodging is still in, and each character isn't wearing cement-cleats, then wavedashing will still be possible

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

^Not necessarily. They may scrap the whole idea of sliding across the ground. The characters may just hit the ground, similar to using Falcon's Falcon Kick into the ground, but with less lag.

BTW regarding my last post: Has that been talked about before?

 

[Igneous42]

Yes, I know that this topic has been done to death, but I just wanted to bring it to some people's attention and, hopefully, get some fresh views and good points on it.

There has been a lot of fuss on whether or not some of the advanced techniques in Melee that probably weren't meant to be there are going to be available in Brawl. Some say that this would potentially kill the game, and that the whole reason there is such depth and strategy to Smash Bros. is because of the plethora of advanced techniques there are available.

What are some of your views on this? Would you welcome the changes, or would you be incredibly disappointed if wavedashing, etc. was taken out of the next installment?

Personally, I think the advanced techniques give the Smash Bros. community a whole world to explore in terms of character development; that's why people here are as good as they are: they take the time to develop their gameplay, and wavedashing, etc. gives you that chance. It separates the hard-workers--who really care about improving themselves--from the all-talk n00bs.

Talk away.

I think melee would have been just as good without them. Sure they add some depth, but every character is still very different. Plus with brawls gameplay changing.

I've been playing pretty casually for years, and it still feels just as deep and fun as it was the day I bought it.

Plus this might suck to think about for a lot of people but brawl was never made for the tourney player in mind. As much as hardcore gamers hate to think about it Casual gamers is where the money comes from. So they might try to make it easier for a n00b and a veteran to fight on equal levels.

 

[Igneous42]

Dunno if this has been brought up before, but wth:

You must keep in mind that Nintendo did not plan on most of melee's advanced techniques. Having said that, regardless of whether they prevent melee's advanced techniques from being performed, there will be new ones found. Brawl will obviously be opening us up to many new styles of play and types of moves, which of course, will be molded together into brawl's own set of advanced technques.

It'll come full circle.

well depending on how brawl is played multiple things could happen

1. there could be things like wavedashing but it just won't be as useful, or not useful at all.

2.worst case scenario that stuff is there but is considered "hacking" and is a bannable offense. But I don't see that happening. Along with this could be patching, so if you try to play online without the latest update (which could eliminate some things) you couldn't connect

3. probably most likely your right. Brawl probably won't have the exact same advanced techs but there will most likely be some.

 

[Banks]

^Not necessarily. They may scrap the whole idea of sliding across the ground. The characters may just hit the ground, similar to using Falcon's Falcon Kick into the ground, but with less lag.

BTW regarding my last post: Has that been talked about before?

i dont think there is a possiblility of 100% friction for all characters. that would make it so if you stop running you stand still automatically. idk it would just be weird, and also how much each character slides was an important part of their stats, and for people like luigi it wouldnt make sense if he had no slide, his character in mario games was always floatly and jumped higher etc

 

[SiD]

i dont think there is a possiblility of 100% friction for all characters. that would make it so if you stop running you stand still automatically. idk it would just be weird, and also how much each character slides was an important part of their stats, and for people like luigi it wouldnt make sense if he had no slide, his character in mario games was always floatly and jumped higher etc

True, but they can still stop you from sliding when you airdodge into the ground, as Levesque said like the Falcon Kick into the ground.

 

[Galvanic]

<Up Special Move: Overthinks>

Here's for a plot twist: What if there's WaveDashing but it's done in a different and more difficult manor than that of Melee's? Or what if you can only do it, via, a new item? Or what if the move is only available to elect characters? Or what if it has to be unlocked?

Would it still be the same WaveDashing that you all know and love?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Some techniques simply have to stay, such as L-cancelling, short hopping, and shffl. I want WD to return, but if it doesn't, I'll just learn to space myself without it and say to hell with WD. I suppose it could be programmed so that when someone air dodges they have 100% friction, but it would be really weird and I have the feeling it would somehow mess up the physics badly. Really, I don't care much for what happens to the better known techniques. It's the refined stuff, such as DI, SDI, and ASDI, that I want to stay. Now that's depth in a game, and we don't want to lose that depth.

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

i dont think there is a possiblility of 100% friction for all characters. that would make it so if you stop running you stand still automatically. idk it would just be weird, and also how much each character slides was an important part of their stats, and for people like luigi it wouldnt make sense if he had no slide, his character in mario games was always floatly and jumped higher etc

I dont think it will happen either, I'm just pointing out the possibility. The person I was quoting had implied that the only way they could get rid of wavedashing was to get rid of air dodging.

 

[psicicle]

here's a thread:

"how to take wavedashing out of brawl"

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=111182

 

[Dynamism]

I think this thread could use some bumpage!
It's ATs in Brawl!!!
Unless there is another "living" one I am unaware of(?)


First off!

1) The new dodging system is quite fancy! If a character is coming from above, you can now jump through them without being harmed and when they land, dair them (or whatever)
You could possibly start a C.Falcon Dair to Fair combo by full jump dodging past their attack
The whole focus of Marth swatting away projectiles can now simply be applied by SHDing towards them and you can attack before landing. This will be a key in advanced play. Applying dodges mid flight whenever you're not attacking. It's like DDing. Of the defensive while attacking.

2) This new false dash dance pivot is another technique that will surely seperate the victor from the defeated.

3) Edguarding...oh don't get me started!!! Character Specifics are abundant and with this new edgesnap/reverse grab/auto-sweetspot on ledges, creativity is now a greater factor than ever!

4) Much to discuss!!!! WD is no longer there! Now we have FFLCing and a Chargable Spin Attack!!???!

 

[DraginHikari]

I think this thread could use some bumpage!
It's ATs in Brawl!!!
Unless there is another "living" one I am unaware of(?)


First off!

1) The new dodging system is quite fancy! If a character is coming from above, you can now jump through them without being harmed and when they land, dair them (or whatever)
You could possibly start a C.Falcon Dair to Fair combo by full jump dodging past their attack
The whole focus of Marth swatting away projectiles can now simply be applied by SHDing towards them and you can attack before landing. This will be a key in advanced play. Applying dodges mid flight whenever you're not attacking. It's like DDing. Of the defensive while attacking.

2) This new false dash dance pivot is another technique that will surely seperate the victor from the defeated.

3) Edguarding...oh don't get me started!!! Character Specifics are abundant and with this new edgesnap/reverse grab/auto-sweetspot on ledges, creativity is now a greater factor than ever!

4) Much to discuss!!!! WD is no longer there! Now we have FFLCing and a Chargable Spin Attack!!???!

Why are you digging up this post from the grave....

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Why are you digging up this post from the grave....

It's better than creating a clone thread.

 

[Dynamism]

And it's not like it's an empty topic

It'll come around again (either as this or a new one)