Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[Kalypso]

^^ why the hell did you just make a new thread with the same thing you just posted here...?

This thread is long to the point where most people aren't going to read it <3

 

[E3E_IceClimbers]

IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO POST IN AN EXISTING THREAD THAN TO CREATE A NEW ONE.....

this thread has all wavedashing and brawl topics in it....POST ANYTHING RELATED in here...

it's not that hard man

 

[zerosin]

That gif you posted Kalypso has been deliberated over for some time now.

Nice find Kalypso, that looks like proof that there's wavedashing in brawl. Because that's a waveland for sure.

That only proves wavelanding is in. You can still mess with WDing by not allowing dodging in the first frame (sounds cruel, but it could happen).

 

[MookieRah]

If they decided to keep wavelanding in, why the heck would they go through all the trouble to keep just one portion of the wavedash component? It doesn't seem like they would go through the trouble to fix wavedashing in the first place. It doesn't affect low level play and the competitive scene likes it.

 

[zerosin]

Oh, I'm not saying I'm for that. I'm just mentioning something. Personally, I say keep it just as another strategy option for pros.

 

[Smashmaniac_91]

I would be very frustrated if WD wasn't in Brawl, but I would buy it nonetheless.

 

[Shaeman111]

We seem to be divided into those who think that smash was intended for certain controls and those who dont. WD normally described a "unorthodox." It is nondebatable that it was an unintentional method of maneuvering about the stage, but didnt it essentially add another layer of strategy to the game? Didnt it unmask many other techniques that only made the game that much more deep? The way we debate all depends on preferences of which school of thought is better: that of the way melee was designed, or that of the way it has evolved. Really, the only opinion that matters is Sakurai's and his cohorts. Which is, btw, what i was trying to say before

All for his theory---
enough said

 

[maxpower1227]

If they decided to keep wavelanding in, why the heck would they go through all the trouble to keep just one portion of the wavedash component? It doesn't seem like they would go through the trouble to fix wavedashing in the first place. It doesn't affect low level play and the competitive scene likes it.

We seem to be divided into those who think that smash was intended for certain controls and those who dont. WD normally described a "unorthodox." It is nondebatable that it was an unintentional method of maneuvering about the stage, but didnt it essentially add another layer of strategy to the game? Didnt it unmask many other techniques that only made the game that much more deep? The way we debate all depends on preferences of which school of thought is better: that of the way melee was designed, or that of the way it has evolved. Really, the only opinion that matters is Sakurai's and his cohorts. Which is, btw, what i was trying to say before

I really don't consider these to be valid arguments. If Smash suddenly introduced MK-esque button combinations for special moves, or a KI-esque combo system, it would add a new layer of strategy to the game, and certainly there would be competitive players that liked that. But that doesn't change the fact that those things DO NOT BELONG in a game like Smash Bros. Similar arguments apply to WD. Competitive players may like it, and good for them. It still doesn't belong.

 

[Ridley22]

I'm fine with wavedashing in or out. On one side I just don't really like wavedashing even though I sometimes do it. But on the other side I'm fine with it in because nobody else that I play with can do it so I wouldn't mind it staying, for the more advanced players.

 

[Wyvern]

If they decided to keep wavelanding in, why the heck would they go through all the trouble to keep just one portion of the wavedash component? It doesn't seem like they would go through the trouble to fix wavedashing in the first place. It doesn't affect low level play and the competitive scene likes it.

Whether it seems like it or not, competitive and casual smashers are all playing the same game. If they decide to include wavedashing into the game, they'll have to balance the characters around its presence, and character balance affects all levels of gameplay.

As of right now, Luigi is an underpowered character who, by sheer coincidence, can be greatly improved due to the presence of an unforseen game mechanic. If the developers decide to keep all wavedashing mechanics exactly the same as they are now, that would give them a licence to make half a dozen new Luigis--characters which are essentially worthless to anyone who doesn't know how to (or chooses not to) implement wavedashing as a huge part of their gameplay--rather than simply making Luigi powerful enough to stand on his own without relying on wavedashing.

Just because some people don't go to tournaments or obsess over perfecting obscure game mechanics doesn't mean that they don't deserve a well-balanced cast of characters to play with. No matter how separate the two groups seem to be, everything that affects tournament play will always affect casual play to some degree, and vice versa. That's why I think that they'll try to find a middle ground somewhere to keep wavedashing from being such a hard barrier separating different playstyles, like it is now, but without removing all the effects it currently has on the metagame.

 

[GreenKirby]

http://myweb.cableone.net/rebelart/WarioWavedash.gif

wavedashing in brawl?

Or maybe it's just improve pyshics. After all, Wario landed on a slope. It would figure he would slide downward.

Again, some of you are just looking TOO MUCH into this. Just wait.

 

[ToyzSoldier]

To Max power

If they were to introduce that battle system, that would be intentional, and therefore belong in that game(even if its not consistent with the series). Wavedashing was unintended. And we do have an example of what Sakurai thinks of unintended things.

Z-canceling for the original Smash bros. was just as unintended as wavedashing. But he kept z-canceling as l-canceling for melee, albeit, with a few changes. From this, we learn Sakurai can be quite open to new ideas even if they're unintended.

This open-mindedness of Sakurai might just be the ticket wavedashing is riding on.

 

[DonkeySmasher]

if you look at the pictures this smash has added emphasis with character to ground graphics (pika final smash look at mario turning, in trailer look at wave wario makes when he lands after kicking, etc) therefore i don't think that's wario wavelanding in the heliberd just graphics also i think they just took off some landing lag and improved roll to appease wave people

 

[zerosin]

I really don't consider these to be valid arguments. If Smash suddenly introduced MK-esque button combinations for special moves, or a KI-esque combo system, it would add a new layer of strategy to the game, and certainly there would be competitive players that liked that. But that doesn't change the fact that those things DO NOT BELONG in a game like Smash Bros. Similar arguments apply to WD. Competitive players may like it, and good for them. It still doesn't belong.

Why doesn't it belong? I mean, the one compelling reason that I think it doesn't belong is Jumanji's argument. But, I would like to understand more about why you think it does not belong.
Pros and casual players can all use whatever mechanics are given them. I use a lot of advanced techs though I'm just a casual player.
Wyvern made a good point:

Just because some people don't go to tournaments or obsess over perfecting obscure game mechanics doesn't mean that they don't deserve a well-balanced cast of characters to play with. No matter how separate the two groups seem to be, everything that affects tournament play will always affect casual play to some degree, and vice versa. That's why I think that they'll try to find a middle ground somewhere to keep wavedashing from being such a hard barrier separating different playstyles, like it is now, but without removing all the effects it currently has on the metagame.

Why not add more balancing factors? Why shouldn't Sakurai build upon a solid foundation like Melee?

 

[Hydde]

I really don't consider these to be valid arguments. If Smash suddenly introduced MK-esque button combinations for special moves, or a KI-esque combo system, it would add a new layer of strategy to the game, and certainly there would be competitive players that liked that. But that doesn't change the fact that those things DO NOT BELONG in a game like Smash Bros. Similar arguments apply to WD. Competitive players may like it, and good for them. It still doesn't belong.

well that comparison is kind of exagerated.

 

[Truegamer#1]

It certainly looks like one, but we can't discount the possibility that he's simply just taken a massive hit from Bowers and is flying across the screen. I'd lean towards it being an airdodge, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions.

if someone can just take a picture of Mario Air dodging in Melee, and take that Brawl picture and compare the similarities, then i would drop this subject.

 

[MookieRah]

But that doesn't change the fact that those things DO NOT BELONG in a game like Smash Bros. Similar arguments apply to WD. Competitive players may like it, and good for them. It still doesn't belong.

This seems to be the biggest argument against wavedashing, and definitely the most prominent. However, it is the most flawed on so many levels. Lets break it down.

First, who are we to decide what does and doesn't belong in the game? How do we know what Sakurai and his team thinks of wavedashing and other advanced unintended techniques? We honestly don't even know if they are aware of it, we just assume (and hope) that they do. By saying what you "feel" is true about smash, you are in effect claiming to be on the same page as Sakurai, in which case, you obviously are just validating yourself with someone elses position.

Secondly, the competitive community has embraced wavedashing. Wavedashing provides a useful way to maneuver. Balancing was NOT hurt by wavedashing. Luigi and IC's were made better by it, but without it, they would be very crappy characters. If anything, wavedashing helped balance a lot of problems with the characters with bad traction, and most of those were relatively low on the tier list. The only thing that really affected already good characters was fox and falco, which ironically is never discussed back here. Waveshining, and all sorts of combos and techniques revolving around the shine are possible because of wavedashing.

Third, it takes work to take these elements out of the game. That, on top of the fact that it didn't disrupt the balance of the casual player AT ALL, there is no reason to take them out for the casual fan base.

As of right now, Luigi is an underpowered character who, by sheer coincidence, can be greatly improved due to the presence of an unforseen game mechanic. If the developers decide to keep all wavedashing mechanics exactly the same as they are now, that would give them a licence to make half a dozen new Luigis--characters which are essentially worthless to anyone who doesn't know how to (or chooses not to) implement wavedashing as a huge part of their gameplay--rather than simply making Luigi powerful enough to stand on his own without relying on wavedashing.

Luigi is a strange character with very strange physics. It makes him unique, but to make people wavedash like him would take away from his goofy physics, which would make Luigi not so strange anymore. Ever since Mario 2, Luigi has always been really flipping weird, so I don't think they would make a batch of characters who wavedashed like Luigi.

Honestly it wouldn't be hard to balance wavedashing, and actually, the in game physics of smash have already balanced it. What proves it is the fact that the discovery of wavedashing changed very little on how the characters were rated. So in the end, they might need to spend a little more thought on their base attributes (speed, weight, floatyness/fastfall, and traction) to better balance wavedashing, which they should do regardless of the inclusion of wavedashing.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The wisest move would be to put wavedashing into the game but make it somehow easier to do. That way they could label it as a new addition to the series and it could easily be used as a segway into competitive smash. As it stands, there is no logical reason to remove wavedashing from the game, as most arguments against it are made by people who resent wavedashing as well as the competitive community. I'm sorry, but spite and angst aren't good enough reasons to remove it.

 

[<π]

But that doesn't change the fact that those things DO NOT BELONG in a game like Smash Bros. Similar arguments apply to WD. Competitive players may like it, and good for them. It still doesn't belong.[/quote[
This seems to be the biggest argument against wavedashing, and definitely the most prominent. However, it is the most flawed on so many levels. Lets break it down.

First, who are we to decide what does and doesn't belong in the game? How do we know what Sakurai and his team thinks of wavedashing and other advanced unintended techniques? We honestly don't even know if they are aware of it, we just assume (and hope) that they do. By saying what you "feel" is true about smash, you are in effect claiming to be on the same page as Sakurai, in which case, you obviously are just validating yourself with someone elses position.

Secondly, the competitive community has embraced wavedashing. Wavedashing provides a useful way to maneuver. Balancing was NOT hurt by wavedashing. Luigi and IC's were made better by it, but without it, they would be very crappy characters. If anything, wavedashing helped balance a lot of problems with the characters with bad traction, and most of those were relatively low on the tier list. The only thing that really affected already good characters was fox and falco, which ironically is never discussed back here. Waveshining, and all sorts of combos and techniques revolving around the shine are possible because of wavedashing.

Third, it takes work to take these elements out of the game. That, on top of the fact that it didn't disrupt the balance of the casual player AT ALL, there is no reason to take them out for the casual fan base.


Luigi is a strange character with very strange physics. It makes him unique, but to make people wavedash like him would take away from his goofy physics, which would make Luigi not so strange anymore. Ever since Mario 2, Luigi has always been really flipping weird, so I don't think they would make a batch of characters who wavedashed like Luigi.

Honestly it wouldn't be hard to balance wavedashing, and actually, the in game physics of smash have already balanced it. What proves it is the fact that the discovery of wavedashing changed very little on how the characters were rated. So in the end, they might need to spend a little more thought on their base attributes (speed, weight, floatyness/fastfall, and traction) to better balance wavedashing, which they should do regardless of the inclusion of wavedashing.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The wisest move would be to put wavedashing into the game but make it somehow easier to do. That way they could label it as a new addition to the series and it could easily be used as a segway into competitive smash. As it stands, there is no logical reason to remove wavedashing from the game, as most arguments against it are made by people who resent wavedashing as well as the competitive community. I'm sorry, but spite and angst aren't good enough reasons to remove it.

I should have quoted a smaller section... but I'm lazy.


I disagree with your argument that wavedashing didn't affect the ranking of characters. You mention fox and falco, but in reality the further down the teir lists you go the less wave dashing is important to high level play of a character. Fox and falco have their waveshines, for marth it is vital for spacing the tiper even shiek benifits more from wavedashing than say pikachu. Yeah there are exceptions, like peach and mewtwo, but you get what I'm saying.

Wavedashing has brought a lot of change to the game. And while I won't say it's bad, I will say it's not what it would be with out it.

 

[Hydde]

the wave dash doesnt help much low tiers because of their natural suckiness.

Sheik, marth etc have plenty of moves to compliment with WD... but when you suck you suck, and WD will not help ypu much (ahem mew2, bowser etc)

 

[<π]

mewtwo's wavedash helps him a bunch. his runspeed and acceleration are disgusting, but his traction is bad too. He can turn that into a comfortable approach move technique and a safe retreat. bowser though? Not so much.

Wavedashing just makes the game easy... So you don't have to think before or after you approach. So yeah while I use it (you have to in order to play on a compeditive level) I don't like how it makes the game play. Don't take this paragraph too far out of context.

 

[Hydde]

mewtwo's wavedash helps him a bunch. his runspeed and acceleration are disgusting, but his traction is bad too. He can turn that into a comfortable approach move technique and a safe retreat. bowser though? Not so much.

Wavedashing just makes the game easy... So you don't have to think before or after you approach. So yeah while I use it (you have to in order to play on a compeditive level) I don't like how it makes the game play. Don't take this paragraph too far out of context.

yeah but their natural limitations offset the WD bonuses. thats what im getting at!.

marth fox etc are very good characters,,,and with WD they turn to broken...while Bowser, memw2 and company, are crappy players...with WD they just turn a little less suky.


The problem are tha characters, not the WD

 

[Zettai Kurayami]

brawl would suck w/out wavedashing

 

[MookieRah]

Dashdancing and normal dash options help Marth as much, and in some cases more than wavedashing though, ever since pivoting came around in full force people opt to not wavedash as much. So in essence, Marth didn't gain all that much from wavedash. Without it, his tier placement wouldn't really move, so in effect had very little impact. This, of course, is why I didn't even mention Marth in my post.

shiek benifits more from wavedashing than say pikachu

Not really, it's just that sheik is better than pikachu. Pikachu's wavedash is *roughly* the same length as Sheik's. This doesn't hinder Pikachu at all, and doesn't affect Sheik's or Pika's placements at all either.

As it stands only a handful of characters really benefitted from wavedashing. Fox, Falco, Luigi, Ice Climbers, the marios, and Mewtwo. While Mewtwo was improved A GOOD bit by wavedashing, it didn't really affect the metagame any to mention him before either.

The thing that affected tiers the most, and tournament play, is fox and falco. They got the most out of wavedashing simply because they could jump out of shines. So if there were no wavedashing in the game they might be below Marth and Sheik.

So you don't have to think before or after you approach. So yeah while I use it (you have to in order to play on a compeditive level) I don't like how it makes the game play. Don't take this paragraph too far out of context.

No, that isn't true. Wavedashing with approaches doesn't make the game easy by any means. It's just a good approach *option* for a lot of characters. Meanwhile, most of the cast have handfuls of other ways to approach someone offensively.

I don't understand why people think that wavedashing makes the game easier... All it does is add another layer to the game. People have learned to deal with it and have learned to counter it in a lot of situations. Wavedashing is a good and fun addition to melee, but it is not nearly as important as teching, DI, and l-canceling, all of which are MUCH HARDER to do. People don't complain about these things that are hard to master because they were legit parts of the game.

The argument that Nintendo doesn't want a deep game out of there easy to pick up system is totally destroyed by the complexity of DI. I'm amazed I didn't think about this earlier. We are JUST now figuring out entirely how DI works. How long did it take us? 6 years. 6 years for something that was part of the game and not unintended or unforseen like wavedashing was. Seriously, Nintendo *does* want to reward players who actually want to delve into the complexities of the game, so there is no excuse for them to take out wavedashing to "simplify" it even more.

That plus the fact that the physics system now incorporates ballistics would potentially make DI even more complex!

 

[GreenKirby]

brawl would suck w/out wavedashing

NO IT WON'T

 

[greenblob]

It seems like the strongest argument for either side is "because I want it to be that way." That and "Z-canceling went from glitch to technique."

And to those who are saying that Wavedashing is technical/not noob-friendly, you've got to be joking me. Not because I'm making fun of your lack of technical skill (which I'm not doing, regardless of your technique), but because Smash, even at M2K's level, is by far the least technical fighting game that is still actively played in competitions.

 

[Johnknight1]

NO IT WON'T

Agreed, even if I am all for Wavedashing in Brawl. We simply don't know how the game psyichs work, so we know virtually nothing of the game. So I'm not sure how it will work, look, or feel in Brawl, but in the end I think it could be helpful and make the game have more...intresting combos and AT. But hey, that's just me.

 

[Jumanji]

Greenblob- There is no true way to definitively argue this point, it will at it's base boil down to what people want most of the time. All I can do with the Z-canceling argument is this: I ask you this, can you name another specifc action in Melee that can be achieved succesfully only by hitting a series of buttons. I can, PTP, but other than that I can think of nothing. Z-canceling is different, to me, because I name many specific actions that can only be achieved in SSB by only be achieved succefully by having very good timing. That is what I think seperates Z-canceling and WD and what I mean by WD doesn't fit into the SSB series. Once more, perhaps they will embrace WD but since all we can argue is SHOULD it be in Brawl not WILL it be in Brawl I think that mine is a pretty solid argument that isn't based around how any group or individual plays the game.

The topic is not "WD in Melee" it is "WD in Brawl." It will not mess up the balance in Brawl, because they will balance it according to WD, so why is the balancing in Melee being discussed at all?

There is no way to make a fighting game "easier" because your opponent always has the option to play the same charecter and use the same tactic as you. WD does not make the game harder or easier. While it certaintly gives more approach options, it also makes defense harder, and I guarentee it does this the exact same ammount. Honestly though the best approach in the game (Falco) has nothing to do with WD. The only way a fighting game might be considered easy is if it is simple, even then it does not make it easier to win against people who understand the simplicity of it. I mean jeez if you could play Mike Tyson's punch out against a real person it would not be easy, just simple.

 

[psicicle]

SHFFL is a move that requires lots of button pressing, so is JC grabbing, JC shining, dashdance (no buttons there), bomb jump and so on. While these are just manifestations of combining several individual components, so is waveashing, a jump canceled by an airdodge. And how exactly does WD not require good timing? If WD doesn't then SHFFL doesn't either because they both require muscle memory.

Also, why is everybody talking about how balance in melee is kind of messed up by WD and miss how it is affected by SHFFLing, dashdancing etc.? The casual level will not be able to SHFFL either, and honestly that is far more important than wavedashing. In addition to this, I doubt that casual players are going to really care about balance a great deal. The way they rank characters is by what character the best person in their group plays. Case in point: I played IC as a casual player and was better than anybody I knew (even though I just rolled alot). After I won a lot, a lot of my friends tried to pick up ICs (although they couldn't). Another example: someone I know plays pichu well. A lot of the people (casual) who play him decide to try to play pichu after getting pwned. Casual players are not nearly as sensitive to balance as competitive players.

 

[MrBitter]

Has this been said yet?

In the 15 second Brawl video, it looks like Bowser is wavedashing into Fox's final smash...

 

[HulkingRage]

i hope they do, so people dont have to spend hours mastering it to stand up against pro players

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

i hope they do, so people dont have to spend hours mastering it to stand up against pro players

1. It takes 30 minutes to learn how to do, unless your hands were amputated at birth, you suck at video games, or are mentally handicapped in some other fashion.

2. Knowing how to wavedash is like 1/1000000th of what it takes to beat a high level player

3. What takes years to learn is how to use wavedashing at the exact right moments and know when NOT TO WAVEDASH to know the difference between spam, and strategy.

4. This ^^ applies to almost every technique in the game.

5. No matter what you do unless you are a pro player, a pro player will either 4 stock you if not sandbagging, or 2-3 stock you if hes going easy on you. no matter how many techniques you know, this game is about wayyy more than simple (yes, simple) techniques like the wavedash.

 

[MookieRah]

I addressed how wavedashing didn't really disturb the balance of melee, because many misinformed posters claimed that it destroyed the balance of the game. Otherwise, there isn't a reason to talk about melee and wavedashing.

I read your earlier post Jumanji, and yeah, I can definitely see it from your point of view. We can talk about either side of our logic for 30 more pages, but the thing is that both sides have a lot of logical angles to which to speculate on what will happen. Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not Nintendo embraces wavedashing, and for that matter, if it embraces the ability for Brawl to be played with previous advanced techniques at all.

A-Laon posted in another thread with a very similar debate which brings up very good points:

Honestly, the main driving force behind my lack of confidence in Nintendo leading Brawl in a competitive direction is their philosophy of "making games everybody can play" and the rest of their efforts to make games more appealing for the casual masses, an idealism they've been proudly boasting ever since the development of the Wii.

Nintendo has been commonly stereotyped as being a "casual" gamer's system. Like any stereotype, there are numerous flaws and exceptions, but there's also a lot that makes this true. As said, Nintendo has never really focused on making competitive games or supporting their communities. Hell, Nintendo was a generation late in integrating even online play, and it's still rather restricted and small-scale when compared to the likes of XBox Live or whatnot. Nintendo just hasn't put in an effort to bring hardcore, head-to-head gaming to its fans.

Ever since the dawn of the Wii, Nintendo has not only continued in making generally simple, easily-approachable games (many of which have been seriously lacking any depth), but they've been selling their console precisely on such a point -- a point of NOT aiming to please the more dedicated gamers and instead catering to those seeking an easier, 'friendlier' experience. They've veritably boasted their console's potential to make games everybody can approach, and their advertising campaigns have shown this as well with ads displaying full families from toddlers to grandparents playing together. Their devotion to this development philosophy, one which very much exiles the hardcore fanbase, has become so strongly outspoken by Nintendo (labeling the Wii things such as a "rebirth" and "revolution" of the face of gaming, etc.) that I find it hard to expect them to make an exception in their beliefs in order to accomadate the Smash community, again, a community they never even really intended to have form.

While there is no way of knowing, we just have to hope that Nintendo doesn't dismantle smash and break it down too much. I'll still play regardless, but if the integrity of the game doesn't hold up as well, then the old view that smash isn't a competitive game that most other game communities hold will become true, that is of course, new crazier glitches and things don't crop up.

Here's hoping it's good, although I'm honestly not worried about it. I have faith that they will make a good game that will cater to all audiences.

 

[Tabris-]

Wavedashing, despite being an integral part of tournament play, isn't necessary for the game. I'm not going to boycott Brawl just because it doesn't have wavedashing in it because for the time I did play Melee, I didn't need wavedashing to play with friends and family, so if it goes I'm not going to lament it's loss like many others will. It's the same for everyone else, we've all played without wavedashing, sure it isn't the same once you know what it is, but not having wavedashing doesn't render the game unplayable.

Most casual players (including myself) don't really know about or care about techniques such as wavedashing so it won't really matter too much. I'm not too worried about necessary such techniques are for competitive play either as I plan to never take part in any gaming competition, that just isn't me.

However, despite not being an intended by those developing melee, wavedashing put a new dimension into the game, which is definitely welcome as it added much more depth to the game. So if it does come back, I'll welcome it with open arms as for me at least, it added new levels to a game I thought I had nailed.

Either way about it, I don't mind. It's only a computer game.

God I'm tired, I'll probably clean up this post later on today, but it's 3:20am right now and I really can't be bothered to think when I'm tired, especially for a computer game.

 

[dizzy]

... What's all this talk about wavedashing being overly complex? It requires three inputs, people. Direction, jump, air dodge. Down-left, X, L. You can hold the direction beforehand, and the X/L inputs are so close to each other that you might as well just think of them as being pressed at the same time. The timing isn't half as strict as some of you make it out to be.

And guess what? Throwing Link's boomerang upwards takes three inputs. Dash jumping into an aerial also takes three inputs. Hell, Pikachu's Up B takes four inputs. But nobody is stupid enough to complain that those techniques are too difficult to master. Why single out wavedashing? Because it's not in the manual? Because it "looks funny?"

Honestly.

 

[AlcyoNite]

I really don't consider these to be valid arguments. If Smash suddenly introduced MK-esque button combinations for special moves, or a KI-esque combo system, it would add a new layer of strategy to the game, and certainly there would be competitive players that liked that. But that doesn't change the fact that those things DO NOT BELONG in a game like Smash Bros. Similar arguments apply to WD. Competitive players may like it, and good for them. It still doesn't belong.

I was never trying to say that it belonged. Obviously, an unintentional layer of a fighting game is never going to fit in with the intended play style. But i was trying to point out that sakurai may potentially accept this style and permit it in his next game. Brawl will be propf of whether he likes it or not. If he does like it, then the WD layer belongs.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

... What's all this talk about wavedashing being overly complex? It requires three inputs, people. Direction, jump, air dodge. Down-left, X, L. You can hold the direction beforehand, and the X/L inputs are so close to each other that you might as well just think of them as being pressed at the same time. The timing isn't half as strict as some of you make it out to be.

And guess what? Throwing Link's boomerang upwards takes three inputs. Dash jumping into an aerial also takes three inputs. Hell, Pikachu's Up B takes four inputs. But nobody is stupid enough to complain that those techniques are too difficult to master. Why single out wavedashing? Because it's not in the manual? Because it "looks funny?"

Honestly.

Its because they're a bunch of scrubs. They spend the day scrubbing toilets till they've scrubbed up enough money to buy a scrubby computer with lag so that when they play online games they can scrub about that. Then they sign up on these forums and scrub their fingers over and over the keyboard in a repetitive pattern kind of like

wavedashing glitch non-intentional funny looking glitch wavedashing pro imbalanced wavedashing glitch glitch sakurai glitch items physics items glitch wavedashing imbalanced tiers imbalanced melee glitch

 

[DonkeySmasher]

Has this been said yet?

In the 15 second Brawl video, it looks like Bowser is wavedashing into Fox's final smash...

wow you have bad eyes that was the cracker launcher

 

[AlcyoNite]

wow you have bad eyes that was the cracker launcher

lol owned imo

 

[Emokirby4]

Has this been said yet?

In the 15 second Brawl video, it looks like Bowser is wavedashing into Fox's final smash...

I actually said that earlier, but I tested it out in Melee. Here's what I found (for those of you who are like me and know nothing of how Bowser works [or doesn't work as the case may be]) :
1) Bowser can hardly Wave dash at all ( though this could change from one installment to the next)
and
2) His dash itself looks similar to a wave dash, which is what I think this is in the new video.

and yes that is the cracker launcher.

 

[Chromeless]

... What's all this talk about wavedashing being overly complex? It requires three inputs, people. Direction, jump, air dodge. Down-left, X, L. You can hold the direction beforehand, and the X/L inputs are so close to each other that you might as well just think of them as being pressed at the same time. The timing isn't half as strict as some of you make it out to be.

And guess what? Throwing Link's boomerang upwards takes three inputs. Dash jumping into an aerial also takes three inputs. Hell, Pikachu's Up B takes four inputs. But nobody is stupid enough to complain that those techniques are too difficult to master. Why single out wavedashing? Because it's not in the manual? Because it "looks funny?"

Honestly.

The fact that x number of inputs are pressed is irelivent, what is relevent is that:

a) For the purposes of the wavedash having to press jump and then time a press of L/R is redundent, it adds nothing to the game and would be better implimented with a button press and a simple direction (keep in mind though that the difficult part of this at first is moving the control stick at an angle that allows a lengthy wavedash but doesn't cause you to air dodge into your opponent's attack).

b) The other techniques you mentioned not only require the number of inputs they need in order to retain an appropriate level of control, but they also give the player enough time to think about the required inputs. WDing is an extremely quick basic move that severly punishes the beginning player for screwing it up, it would be simple enough to allow the technique to be assigned to the player's prefered button press, so I see no reason to not allow the player to do so. The technique isn't rediculously complex, but for what it is it could certainly do with a bit of simplification (and if it makes it into brawl I am certain this will be possible).