Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[Shaeman111]

Wavedashing didn't break the game. How many Peach players do you see wavedash? How much does Ken wavedash? If everyone can wavedash than why are some characters better than others? The game was not imbalanced because of wavedashing.

Also, I like wavedashing with Mario and Luigi. It is more fun wavedashing with them then jumping around (especially Luigi and his floatiness ). In the future, please do not tell me and other people what would be more fun for us in such an authoritative form. Thanks

well, just because ken doesnt use the wavedash doesnt nessecarily mean that marth isn't better because wavedashing... i mean, there are plenty of good marths that wavedash..

But i agree that the game was not imbalanced because of wavedashing.
I just didnt like the example..

 

[SHINE FX]

I'll be a little upset if wavedashing isn't in Brawl; but I'm not that great a player anyway, so trying to develop a play style shouldn't be too hard.
It won't be too long before other advanced strategies are discovered anyway, especially with a community as large as Smashboards. L-cancelling, on the other hand, is a lot more critical. Not all of the pros wavedash (frequently): Aniki and Masashi, or even short hop; so there's obviously a distinction between the advanced and average players that stems deeper than a few advanced techniques.

 

[_Phloat_]

Why do people use the fun arguement, that makes me lose a LOT of respect for them..

I mean, saying how to have fun with the game "U HAV MOAR FUN IF U DON'T SUK LIEK YOU DO, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL" annoys the hell out of me, and is why I went here instead of just gamefaqs.

 

[greenblob]

I agree, considering that the main goal of competitive smash is to have as much fun as possible.

 

[NES n00b]

well, just because ken doesnt use the wavedash doesnt nessecarily mean that marth isn't better because wavedashing... i mean, there are plenty of good marths that wavedash..

But i agree that the game was not imbalanced because of wavedashing.
I just didnt like the example..

What I meant was that Ken doesn't win tournies because of the "brokeness" of wavedashing. He is a good example (along with Aniki) of people who win (against people who wavedash more) without wavedashing.

I agree with Phloat. I don't like people telling me that I am not having fun doing these certain things when I am. That kind of talk puts people down which is not good.

 

[_Phloat_]

I agree, considering that the main goal of competitive smash is to have as much fun as possible.

Correct, I wonder if even half of the people posting here have ever even been to a tournament... I mean, a LOT of people go to these things ( A relativly larger number than you would expect) And only a few of them get money. Most go knowing they will not win, but mindgaming and seeing all your hard work feels great. I am not saying that you must have fun this way (people here's argument) But I AM saying that these people play for fun just like you...

I love smash because I love that feeling you get when you predict someone really hard, and you get an early kill, or they tech towards you into an u-smash...

 

[Shaeman111]

okok u've made ur point. i get what ur saying.
and yea i congree (YES I SED CONGREE!! Conquer and agree) with phloat..
i used to get that plenty when i wasnt... well as good as certain people. (SUCKED)
but now i WHOOP on them and now WHO's "Teh N00B" NOW!? HUH!?!? HUHHHHHH!?!??!


.....sorry about that >_>

 

[Shaeman111]

and how do u go up in ranks or w/e?
cuz i hate being called a smash nub >_>
i wana be a CHILD!! :D

 

[AlcyoNite]

and how do u go up in ranks or w/e?
cuz i hate being called a smash nub >_>
i wana be a CHILD!! :D

Well, Im sure Michael Jackson hates being called a pedophile >.>

 

[Shaeman111]

Theo Ur A Jew!!

 

[AlcyoNite]

We can only truly go about this topic by waiting for brawl to come out.
For now, we are stuck with contemplating exactly what type of gameplay Nintendo wanted for Melee: consider what advanced techniques were probably 100% unintentional-
WD (and all of its variants-waveshine, waveland, etc.), JC, CSDI, Doraki WJ, IC's crazy CG and grab hits, etc. These came about with gamers analyzing melee for every nook and cranny that it has. Gamebreaking? Would this make the game developers cry? imo, no. Its not nearly as extreme as MvC2 has grown to be (what with 100 hit ftw combos and extremely rigged top tiers); they might even be proud that gamers have embraced ssbm as a fighter that is worth such time and effort to conjure up such techniques; no one can really know.

But also consider what techniques were likely intentional: L-cancel (it was in ssb64), CG (comps grab out of ur upB as an edgeguard), SH, FF, [thus SHFFL], shieldgrabbing (the tutorial gives the primary grab method as R+A), SHL (look at the autocancel), teching, the shine(it had the same properties in 64 AND one can assume that, since falco's trophy/figure description boasts his shine as a move that can send the enemy into the air, the shine was designed intentionally to send people downward) etc.

When comparing these techniques, one can see that the current gameplay has come from combining what the designers meant for advanced play to have and what they couldnt possibly have foreseen. Brawl's possibilities all hang on whether the developers like the current metagame of ssbm. I highly doubt that they will throw out air dodging altogether, but if they didnt like wavedashing, they will probably make hitting the floor an automatic cancel of any movement from the air. Who is to say that other aspects of the game wont be explored and abused to the limit?

On the other hand, game creators may embrace what changes the game has taken on the competitive scene; they may just keep the physics of the game the same (or similar) to leave possibilities endless in the fashion that it already is. After all, the input that Nintendo took from Japan on what characters to include in brawl, the smashbros.com updates, and other interactions with the smash fanbase reveal that nintendo cares much about the satisfaction of the fans.

Again, brawl really depends on what the developers want the gameplay to be like. Have they assimilated their tastes to what the current metagame is? or are they keeping a stiff upper lip and trying to create the smash that they intended for the GCN? Only time will tell!

 

[Shaeman111]

i think u mean Z-cancel buddy :]

 

[max32090]

if air dodge is in brawl, wavedash will be in brawl
z-cancel was a glitch in ssb and a technique in melee, whether or not they'll make it a technique in brawl is the real question

 

[zerosin]

I stick with CrystalNite on this subject. We can only see what will happen when Brawl is released.
Opinion wise, I think they should leave in WDing for this reason only: we as players can make the choice of whether we use it or not. As I think about it more (and as I wax philosophic), everything is up to us to use. Do I want to SHFFL or do I not want to? Do I want to WD or do I not want to? 'Nuff said.
WD is just another strategy anyone can employ into their game. It may not seem as useful for a heavy lug like Bowser or Ganondorf, it may almost give others godlike speed like Luigi and ICs, and it can piss people ******** lots like Fox and waveshining.
I think a lot of mechanics will change once Brawl shows up. For example, maybe the shine will not be jump-cancelable, which negates the use of wavedashing out of a shine. Faster dodges may serve to better the slower characters while faster characters may not need them.
I say leave wavedashing in and let the player decide what to do. The more strategies, the more choices a player has and the more interesting a fight can become.

 

[maxpower1227]

I stick with CrystalNite on this subject. We can only see what will happen when Brawl is released.
Opinion wise, I think they should leave in WDing for this reason only: we as players can make the choice of whether we use it or not. As I think about it more (and as I wax philosophic), everything is up to us to use. Do I want to SHFFL or do I not want to? Do I want to WD or do I not want to? 'Nuff said.
WD is just another strategy anyone can employ into their game. It may not seem as useful for a heavy lug like Bowser or Ganondorf, it may almost give others godlike speed like Luigi and ICs, and it can piss people ******** lots like Fox and waveshining.
I think a lot of mechanics will change once Brawl shows up. For example, maybe the shine will not be jump-cancelable, which negates the use of wavedashing out of a shine. Faster dodges may serve to better the slower characters while faster characters may not need them.
I say leave wavedashing in and let the player decide what to do. The more strategies, the more choices a player has and the more interesting a fight can become.

That's such a huge copout though.

Take a fighter like Killer Instinct. It is mind-bogglingly complicated with its combos, linkers, combo breakers, enders, juggles, shadow moves, ultras, ultimates, etc. Is it really a valid argument to say that it's not too complicated because people can just "choose not to use certain moves"? This is an extreme example, but it makes my point. Wavedashing doesn't belong in the Smash Bros philosophy of employing very simple controls.

 

[zerosin]

But if you think about it, the control concept is pretty simple. It's the timing that's involved that makes it seem "unnatural."
Second, regarding your Killer Instinct example, denying that it's complicated would be a stupid idea. I do not think any fighter, including Smash, is "simple." I mean, I play Guilty Gear X2 lots and you can do just about anything thanks to, but not limited, Romantic and False Romantic Cancels. (Don't bash me on this opinion please >.<)
Third, I find that even in Smash, though the commands may be simple and the attacks you can use somewhat limited (4 smashes, 4 tilts, 4 aerials, 4 throws, etc.), it can still be just as complicated as another fighter. Everything revolves around strategy. I think Brawl should add onto what is already successful; provide new strategies for those who find WDing "unnatural" or "unneeded."

 

[maxpower1227]

Right, but Smash's complication was solely through strategy, not being able to input precise button combinations. Wavedashing is, in effect, a button combination that has to be input with rather precise timing to be pulled off. Smash was not meant to rely on muscle memory or precision timing, but by quick thinking and reflexes. If you decide the best move for the situation is a utilt, you can pull it off easily. If you decide it's a fsmash, you can pull that off easily. The complication just arises from making you think fast, not making you press buttons in a precise sequence.

 

[Shaeman111]

they just better not make it rigged.

 

[Jiraiya_Inc]

in the end if its taken out theres always melee to go back to, then hopefully they'll change it in the 2nd edition of the game :/ We hope

 

[Shaeman111]

yea, i was actually scared at 1 point that brawl was gona be better...
cuz thats when i fell IN LOVE with melee :D

 

[Jiraiya_Inc]

even if it is taken out, all the smash games are legend

 

[Shaeman111]

amen to that!

 

[AlcyoNite]

We seem to be divided into those who think that smash was intended for certain controls and those who dont. WD normally described a "unorthodox." It is nondebatable that it was an unintentional method of maneuvering about the stage, but didnt it essentially add another layer of strategy to the game? Didnt it unmask many other techniques that only made the game that much more deep? The way we debate all depends on preferences of which school of thought is better: that of the way melee was designed, or that of the way it has evolved. Really, the only opinion that matters is Sakurai's and his cohorts. Which is, btw, what i was trying to say before

 

[Truegamer#1]

I just curious but has anyone else noticed Bowsers final smash pictures, one of them has Mario AIR DODGING
or has that already been dicussed?

 

[Jumanji]

I have already stated my opinion on WD (that it is an anomaly and doesn't fit well within Melee, you can look back in this thread if you want a more complete answer.) A common response to this was that Z-canceling was an anomaly and didn't fit well into the orginal SSB. This is difficult to argue with. In fact the makers of Melee went so far as to embrace z-canceling, creating teching (which done on a flat surface is basically l-canceling for landing disoriented) and wall jumping and other things that reward correct timing when you come into contact with the level. They even made a charecter that is almost USELESS without L-canceling (Bowser.) Instead of fixing the glitch the developers expanded on it, and one has to deduce that they thought the glitch had a good effect on game play.
It is impossible to predict how the developers feel about WD this time around. I still believe that is unatural (I am calling it unatural because there is no virtually reason you would ever do that button combonation if you did not know about WD) and it doesn't fit into Melee. Perhaps the developers will change Brawl so it does fit the Brawl game play, but I feel that doing so (making button combonations necessary to perform a single specific action, rather than a series of specific actions) doesn't fit well into how I view Smash Brothers. This doesn't mean it is not how the developers view it, and I know very well that they do not give a crap about my personal opinion on the subject.

PS: before some idiot flames you, yes the mario air dodging has been discussed.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Well, all I have to say is that I agree with Jumanji.

I got nothing else.

 

[Akuryou]

I just curious but has anyone else noticed Bowsers final smash pictures, one of them has Mario AIR DODGING
or has that already been dicussed?

It certainly looks like one, but we can't discount the possibility that he's simply just taken a massive hit from Bowers and is flying across the screen. I'd lean towards it being an airdodge, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions.

 

[OnyxVulpine]

I never wavedashed since... I played within my circle of novice friends and we never used it or learned about it. I think its an exploit as well as a few other things, but those are what made the game a learning experience and gave it more depth since there are not as much "moves" as other fighting games.

 

[psicicle]

Hey I haven't read through the last two pages, but in the update does anybody notice bowser sliding across the ground kind of wavedash like

I swear, sakurai is doing this on purpose

 

[_Phloat_]

Right, but Smash's complication was solely through strategy, not being able to input precise button combinations. Wavedashing is, in effect, a button combination that has to be input with rather precise timing to be pulled off. Smash was not meant to rely on muscle memory or precision timing, but by quick thinking and reflexes. If you decide the best move for the situation is a utilt, you can pull it off easily. If you decide it's a fsmash, you can pull that off easily. The complication just arises from making you think fast, not making you press buttons in a precise sequence.

I can wavedash on command, but when I do u-tilts from nothing I have difficulty...

Who knows, if it doesn't fit because the button combination, they might make it like crouch and hit L twice...

 

[psicicle]

Wavedashing is honestly not as hard as everybody seems to be making it out to be.

"Smash was not meant to rely on muscle memory or precision timing, but by quick thinking and reflexes."

How do you know that? And why does it matter what Smash is meant for?

"The complication just arises from making you think fast, not making you press buttons in a precise sequence."

Wavedashing does both. It is not some sort of instant win, nor will somebody who just picked it up and can do it on command be able to utilize it well. I guarantee that I would lose to a pro even if that pro did not wavedash. Even excluding Aniki who would probably have been brought up. Now that does not come from my lack of ability to use WD (I play ICs), but from my worse strategizing ability.

 

[Keitaro]

@Phloat: ****, you make Brawl feel so far away. But at the same time, you make it feel so close.

Everyone good can wavedash. The wavedash doesn't make the skill though, it just helps add onto it. It's the way you use it. Wavedashing is pretty fun, cool, and does help add more compitition to the game but it's really not needed. I will be pissed if they took it out though.

 

[zerosin]

In fact the makers of Melee went so far as to embrace z-canceling, creating teching (which done on a flat surface is basically l-canceling for landing disoriented) and wall jumping and other things that reward correct timing when you come into contact with the level. They even made a charecter that is almost USELESS without L-canceling (Bowser.) Instead of fixing the glitch the developers expanded on it, and one has to deduce that they thought the glitch had a good effect on game play.

I think if they full embraced L-canceling, I think the same could be true about WDing. They can expand on it by providing a substitute for people who may not use it as much (Zelda, Ganondorf, Bowser, Link [debatable of course]).
WDing is rooted in the Smash community and the Melee system. But I'm sure Sakurai has figured out a remedy to this problem; he hasn't failed us yet.

 

[Emokirby4]

Bowser definately just did something that looks a lot like a wave dash in the newest video!
I slowed it down and I'm almost 80% sure it is one.

 

[maxpower1227]

All I see Bowser doing in that trailer is getting rocked *shrug*

 

[GreenKirby]

I'm sure that wasn't wavedashing.

Why do people always look TOO MUCH into something?

 

[zerosin]

Nothing's proven till you play the game... or until Sakurai says it will be in there. *sigh* Stupid anticipation factor...

 

[Kalypso]

http://myweb.cableone.net/rebelart/WarioWavedash.gif

wavedashing in brawl?

 

[E3E_IceClimbers]

^^ why the hell did you just make a new thread with the same thing you just posted here...?

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Nice find Kalypso, that looks like proof that there's wavedashing in brawl. Because that's a waveland for sure.