Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[<π]

Has this been said yet?

In the 15 second Brawl video, it looks like Bowser is wavedashing into Fox's final smash...

what?

No, that isn't true. Wavedashing with approaches doesn't make the game easy by any means. It's just a good approach *option* for a lot of characters. Meanwhile, most of the cast have handfuls of other ways to approach someone offensively.

I don't understand why people think that wavedashing makes the game easier... All it does is add another layer to the game. People have learned to deal with it and have learned to counter it in a lot of situations. Wavedashing is a good and fun addition to melee, but it is not nearly as important as teching, DI, and l-canceling, all of which are MUCH HARDER to do. People don't complain about these things that are hard to master because they were legit parts of the game.

MookieRah, I didn't mean nessesarily using wavedashes as an approach, in fact most of the time that tends to be a poor option. I ment it's uses as a defensive technique, and while yes with the discovery of pivioting that is much less true now you can I'm sure understand where I'm coming from. wavedashing comes into play not just with fox and falco's shines but really any jump cancel-able animation, dash animations, sheilding... because of this it gives you I guess less repercutions for running forward or throwing up your shield or... what ever. But the character who benifit from it the most are characters with fast attacks or big range like sheik or marth.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Wavedashing ruined the game. You are right it did add another layer of complexity to the game, what I suppose I am trying to say it. Wave-dashing "changed" the game a lot more the people give it credit for. Yes in the whole of things it may be a small part of the game but at higher levels of play it has become a near nessesity. It's gotten to the point where I've heard people say they'll refuse to play brawl if wave-dashing doesn't make the transition, it's that important.

I also want to say without wave dashing melee would have been just as fun and compeditive, though I haven't really made too many points to back that up.

 

[vericz]

Bowser Wavdashing

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Thats so not a wavedash it's not even debatable. its something though, looks like a sweet move from what I can tell but hes not wding at all.

 

[vericz]

He is landing because of the circular smoke right??

 

[maxpower1227]

I'm starting to wonder if they changed the physics so that players don't lose all of their forward momentum when they land on the ground.

 

[<π]

Vericz I think at the start of his run animation he spurs up smoke too...

Not sure if that his run animation... looks like his land o.0

 

[BentoBox]

Why are you guys still debating this ._."

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Why are you guys still debating this ._."

Why are you still asking that stupid ****ing question? We're debating it because its an important technique that could change the entire game for the worse if removed. Thats why.

 

[Baha]

Why are you guys still debating this ._."

We have 5 months to wait and we have nothing else to do!

 

[<π]

hey there is winnd on the platform above him.

 

[vericz]

Waveland?? Who knows.

Anyways, if the character doesn't lose all momentum when landing and still slides I wouldn't like it. It would feel like playing on ice and spacing could be more difficult. Going to watch the other vids, pretty sure it's not like this though

That smoke does seem out of place.....


Edit- Just watched the trailer again and saw no characters continue sliding after landing from a jump, the only ones i saw were the ones already shown. Only difference of bowsers is that he isn't on a slant. anyone know what the smoke is?

 

[Bowser_Gangsta]

Well...

I think if Wavedashings not in Brawl, casual players won't feel intimadated because they know they won't be as good as the pros. The game will still be fun, but there will be something missing. But Dylan makes a good point. If it is in Brawl, we shouldn't complain, just not use it. But, if for some reason, Nintendo takes out a perfect battle system, perhaps we'll find a new exploit for brawl soon after the release.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

It kind of pisses me off in a way because basically what some people are saying is that "I don't want anyone to ever come up to my level, so if they take some complicated manuver out of the game and even the playing field so anyone can be competitive, well, I just wont play the game!!"

*squeezes buttcheeks together and huff, storming off*

Seriously people, I understand your desire to win, but I think Brawl could really use some major massive close games. And no, I'm not supporting the stupid n00bs who think spamming Link's Up-B. I expect SOME skill from players, but honestly, I believe SSBB should be one of the few games that should allow casual players to potentially get on the same playing field as the pros.

Rant over.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

It kind of pisses me off in a way because basically what some people are saying is that "I don't want anyone to ever come up to my level, so if they take some complicated manuver out of the game and even the playing field so anyone can be competitive, well, I just wont play the game!!"

It takes a lot more than one technique to equal the level of a skilled player. That's not what people are saying at all, actually.

Skill goes beyond techniques, techniques merge together to form a playstyle, and the more effective the playstyle is, the more skill the player has.

it goes even further in smash to the point where the best players analyse their opponents and almost immediatly come up with ways to counter the attacks of those people. Perhaps in some situations a wavedash could actually hinder a more effective attack strategy. Good players know when to do what and no one technique makes up their game.

Even if wavedashing is taken out, there will be good players, and there will be bad ones. Its just how it works.

What I'm basically saying about the wavedash (dunno bout the rest of you) is that there is not one, not ONE good reason to remove it. Its a great technique useful in certain situations. It's one of the easiest techniques to master in the game, children can do it. So since there is no good reason to remove it, why do so? You would only be subtracting from the game, there's no sense in that.

People in this thread who are against wavedashing have come up with two ''reasons'' why they want it out. Im not sure if there are more but I mostly see these :

''I want wavedashing removed just so it will piss people off and I can laugh at all of you guys who beat me because I have a small *****, I cant beat anyone in smash, and I'm a spiteful ******* who derives joy from the suffering of other people''

''Wavedashing wasn't intentional / is a glitch''

The first argument is just stupid to the point where it's better to ignore it's existence. The 2nd has been destroyed at least 600 times already.

 

[Circus]

Seriously people, I understand your desire to win, but I think Brawl could really use some major massive close games. And no, I'm not supporting the stupid n00bs who think spamming Link's Up-B. I expect SOME skill from players, but honestly, I believe SSBB should be one of the few games that should allow casual players to potentially get on the same playing field as the pros.

Rant over.

The problem with this is, casual players DO have the potential to get as good as pros. The problems is, they're....well, casual players. They don't care enough about the game to practice that much. Sure, they may find it really fun, but pros work their ***** off to get where they are. No matter what techniques are in the game, all players have the same opportunity to master what's there. Some just don't bother to do so.

By the way, this is coming from someone who has never been to a Smash tournament, doesn't wavedash due to basically everything I mentioned above, and, in basically everyway, considers himself a casual player. Just so you know this isn't biased.

 

[<π]

Waveland?? Who knows.

Anyways, if the character doesn't lose all momentum when landing and still slides I wouldn't like it. It would feel like playing on ice and spacing could be more difficult. Going to watch the other vids, pretty sure it's not like this though

That smoke does seem out of place.....


Edit- Just watched the trailer again and saw no characters continue sliding after landing from a jump, the only ones i saw were the ones already shown. Only difference of bowsers is that he isn't on a slant. anyone know what the smoke is?

I don't have smash with me vericz, but theres a handful of things that cause smoke like that, a bunch of dtilts and dsmashes, landing, I think jumping?... You might want to check if running with bowser causes that gust of air because for some reason I think it does. What I was say earlier though was that bowsers run animation isn't like that in melee.

Also, nice sig.

 

[vericz]

I just went to training mode and tried dashing with bowser and this looks nothing like it. His wavedash in melee is almost identical to the so called wavedash in braw. It also created the same smoke effect whil dashing did not

Can anyone else check

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

It takes a lot more than one technique to equal the level of a skilled player. That's not what people are saying at all, actually.

Skill goes beyond techniques, techniques merge together to form a playstyle, and the more effective the playstyle is, the more skill the player has.

it goes even further in smash to the point where the best players analyse their opponents and almost immediatly come up with ways to counter the attacks of those people. Perhaps in some situations a wavedash could actually hinder a more effective attack strategy. Good players know when to do what and no one technique makes up their game.

Even if wavedashing is taken out, there will be good players, and there will be bad ones. Its just how it works.

What I'm basically saying about the wavedash (dunno bout the rest of you) is that there is not one, not ONE good reason to remove it. Its a great technique useful in certain situations. It's one of the easiest techniques to master in the game, children can do it. So since there is no good reason to remove it, why do so? You would only be subtracting from the game, there's no sense in that.

People in this thread who are against wavedashing have come up with two ''reasons'' why they want it out. Im not sure if there are more but I mostly see these :

''I want wavedashing removed just so it will piss people off and I can laugh at all of you guys who beat me because I have a small *****, I cant beat anyone in smash, and I'm a spiteful ******* who derives joy from the suffering of other people''

''Wavedashing wasn't intentional / is a glitch''

The first argument is just stupid to the point where it's better to ignore it's existence. The 2nd has been destroyed at least 600 times already.

First off, was that flame really nessicary? And second, no one wants wavedashing removed because they want to piss people off. If wavedashing is SO important to you that you'll stop playing the game altogether, then maybe you really need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

As I've said previously, I don't want wavedashing removed because I can't do it. That's completely selfish thinking and I don't like that kind of thought. Second, I'm not a crappy player, as you're infrancing. I'm a casual player. I don't do tourneys, I play with my friends and home and have a good time. I say wavedashing should be removed because it not only completely cancels out normal game mechanics that exist for a reason (lag and other such things you "elite players" are so fond of ignoring) but it also isn't "one of the easiest techniques to master in the game, children can do it. " otherwise there wouldn't have to be many guides all over the internet explaining how to do it.

And as for your little rant at the Anti-WD side, I still believe that you guys are elitist *******s who are afraid of anyone coming close to your level. You are threatned by the thought of the causal gamer (like myself, my friends and other hundreds of Super Smash players who exist) possibly coming close to your level.

I'm not spiteful, and I don't say this because someone beat me with WD. I'm only trying to voice my opinion about why WD should be removed.

Even if wavedashing is taken out, there will be good players, and there will be bad ones. Its just how it works.

BTW, more elitist ******* philosophy. Get off your throne already and stop acting godly. No one is impressed.


Rant over.

 

[SGX]

Wavedashing:

Is a useful technique.
Is not mandatory to use to win.
Does not break the game.
Does not make any single character TOO good.
Is really NOT that hard to do with most characters.

I'm not going to cry if it's gone, but yes, I'll miss it. (I main Luigi)

I've sat down with several of my casual player friends for about 5-10 minutes to explain the basics of wavedashing and demonstrate how to do it. Most of them were able to pull it off to some extent within that time frame.

There are annoying glitches/exploits in Smash. Wavedashing however, is not one. It's just another method of moving and spacing your character.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

So what you're basically saying is that dashing, walking and rolling aren't nessicary? Lag is just some inconvenience that you can just scoff at? I mean, that must be the case of WD is NOT a glitch/exploit. I mean, with all the benefits it supposedly confers, why would you need anything else besides jumping/WD?

 

[SGX]

WDing is not faster than dashing for all characters. Also, some characters have good dash attacks (Sheik)

Walking...who walks anyways?

There's a time for rolling, and also not everyone has perfected WDing. Obviously WDing is slightly more difficult than rolling, so it should have slightly more benefits.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Okay, well how about Lag then? Is that just some programming error? Was it just thrown in there to make people find ways around it? I believe it was in there to put limitations onto characters, not for people who spend 10-12 hours straight a day on this game to find ways about.

Also walking sucks. I can't argue with that. Unless you're messing around, NO ONE walks.

 

[<π]

Okay, well how about Lag then? Is that just some programming error? Was it just thrown in there to make people find ways around it? I believe it was in there to put limitations onto characters, not for people who spend 10-12 hours straight a day on this game to find ways about.

Also walking sucks. I can't argue with that. Unless you're messing around, NO ONE walks.

That logic doesn't work. L-canceling was built into melee, and land canceling animation is also a way to cut animations, you can jump cancel dashes and sheild, yet another way. Tons of lags was programed in, but tons of ways to get around that same lag was also built right into the game as well.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Besides L-canceling, what other OFFICIAL ways are in the game that allow you to get around Lag?

 

[SGX]

I never said anything about lag and/or L-cancelling.

I don't think L-cancelling was entirely intentional. I don't particularly like the idea of it. However, I don't discourage the use of it at all. There's almost never a time to NOT L-cancel. In fighting games a "cancel" usually involves a trade off of some sort. (Damage, super meter, etc.)

In Smash, L-cancelling is just an extra button press that you're forced to work into your play style for the sake of staying competitive. It's really like creating an artificial skill gap.

Ideally, there should be a time to L-cancel, and a time to not L-cancel. Just like there are times to WD and times to not WD.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I guess my ultimate point is that WDing not only just doesn't seem to fit into the game realistically as a whole, but adds an entirely new layer of complexity that doesn't need to be in a game like Super Smash.

If I wanted canceling and complexity, I'd play freakin Mortal Kombat.


And I ****ing hate that game.


EDIT: And thank you guys for actually debating with me without acting like elitist *******s and flaming me merely for my viewpoint.

 

[SGX]

The creators of Mortal Kombat don't even understand concepts like blockstun. Dead serious.

If you want canceling and complexity, play Virtua Fighter, or Guilty Gear.

...or Melee =p

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Wasn't Super Smash supposed to be an easy fighting game? Hence it's appeal?

Why can't we have an easy fighting game for once. Something anyone can pick up and master in a few hours...

Anyways, I'm going to stop arguing about this now. You have your opinion and I have mine and until the game comes out, there's not a whole lot arguing about it is going to do us.

Peace out folks.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

First off, was that flame really nessicary? And second, no one wants wavedashing removed because they want to piss people off

LOL you're hypersensitive. Who's flaming? also :

Personally, I hope Brawl doesn't have wavedashing in. Just so I can see some of your faces.

in that case, I want it removed just so nubz like you won't buy the game.

no concern here if it leaves. I think wavedashing should be removed just to annoy the heck out of people whose lives revolve around it. I'm sure the real pros would just move along and find other ways to rule the Smash universe.

You really should -read- a thread before you act like you know everything that happened in it. Just my 2 cents because I just made you look like a huge idiot. It was worth the 20 mins it took me to track down those posts.

If wavedashing is SO important to you that you'll stop playing the game altogether, then maybe you really need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

I posted this like 20 pages back.

You're not good when you know any specific technique. You're good when you know many techniques and can incoroparate them instinctually at the right place and time based on your predictions on where your opponent is going to be after observing his or her patterns. Knowing techniques is only like... 5 percent of the road to becoming a pro smasher. Its an intellectual game.

however, wavedashing is a great technique, very useful and it doesnt affect casual play since newbies either dont use it or do use it, but as spam and not used for anything. I don't see why it would be removed.

No one here thinks wavedashing makes you a good player, I pity anyone who does. Wavedashing is easy and everyone should try to learn it for melee and see if they can find places to implement it, theres no reason not to its like boycotting crouch cancelling because it wasnt explained in the how-to-play video. Bowser also didnt Meteor cancel marios fair meteor in the how-to-play video. So the techniques are left to be discovered by us, the players

I say wavedashing should be removed because it not only completely cancels out normal game mechanics that exist for a reason (lag and other such things you "elite players" are so fond of ignoring) but it also isn't "one of the easiest techniques to master in the game, children can do it. " otherwise there wouldn't have to be many guides all over the internet explaining how to do it.

Hold diagonal downwards facing left or right.
Press X
Press L right after you press x.

practice.

It requires (like someone said before) less button inputs than pikachus recovery.

And as for your little rant at the Anti-WD side, I still believe that you guys are elitist *******s who are afraid of anyone coming close to your level. You are threatned by the thought of the causal gamer (like myself, my friends and other hundreds of Super Smash players who exist) possibly coming close to your level.

I'm not afraid of that. Wavedash or not, n00bs are n00bs, advanced players are advanced players, and pros are untouchable by anything but other pros. SSB64 doesn't have wavedashing, and I garuntee if you play me online I will 5 stock you. Why? because I play it everyday and I practice.

A big part of being good at smash, my friend is practice. So if you consider yourself a ''casual'' player than no, without the hard work and effort you are not going to beat someone better than you, because they're better than you for a reason. Not because they can wavedash and you cant.

Most likely because if you played someone of about my level, they would watch you. They would find your patterns, and theyd exploit that. Smash goes so far beyond the techniques at the highest level that it is astounding. It becomes an intellectual game of prediction and confusing your opponent by making yourself hard to predict and changing your patterns constantly.

BTW, more elitist ******* philosophy. Get off your throne already and stop acting godly. No one is impressed.

It's not elitist philosophy... its the truth and it applies to everything. You remind me of an elementary school teacher preaching about how everyone is equal, they aren't.

Some people are good at smash, other people suck. How do you change your skill level? by practicing and being beaten again, and again, and again by players far more advanced than you.

Some people are professional hockey players, most people aren't. Like I said, this philosophy applies to every activity including video games where winning and losing are involved and the outcome of the game depends at least moderatly on the skill of the player.

Wasn't Super Smash supposed to be an easy fighting game? Hence it's appeal?

It is... it's a really easy game to pick up and play with your friends. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to beat PC chris in the MLG finals or anything man. If you don't have the time or dedication to learn the advanced techniques then why do you want to be part of the competitive scene to begin with?

Why can't we have an easy fighting game for once. Something anyone can pick up and master in a few hours...

Smash is all that and better. Its an easy fighter that I picked up and loved 8 years ago or so when super smash bros n64 came out and I was 11 years old. And since then I'm still playing it, and still improving.

Smash is a game thats easy to pick up and impossible to master. The potential for this game has no ceiling and ''perfect control'' proved that melee could be played at a level higher than our current one if only players could press buttons faster than physically possible with a human hand.

NO ONE walks

Actually marth players do it quite frequently to space their tippers vs a semi predictable recovery that can vary in legnth like fox's firefox or sheiks teleport. The marth player walks ever so slightly to the perfect tipper range and then fsmashes for the kill.

I actually walk with fox randomly sometimes just to confuse people. walking into an usmash works great sometimes, if you can tell the person doesnt see it coming

So what you're basically saying is that dashing, walking and rolling aren't nessicary? Lag is just some inconvenience that you can just scoff at? I mean, that must be the case of WD is NOT a glitch/exploit. I mean, with all the benefits it supposedly confers, why would you need anything else besides jumping/WD?

Because...

1. Dash dancing is a good mindgame
2. running into a cc'd usmash with fox just owns at the right time
3. Not everyone has a great wavedash
4. If you only use one form of movement you're extremly predictable
5. Wavedashing offers you no invincibility frames, where as the roll does. Sometimes you want to roll to get through marths sword without being killed.
6. Walking is good for spacing
7. Pivoting is a useful technique
8. Moonwalking with captain falcon


I could go on for like 100 of em. I know more about smash than you, stop making the most pathetic arguments ever?

k thx.

GG no re.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

....I won't even answer that. I hear your have a fan following, but seriously, your entire way of refuting arguments is a ****-load of putting others down. You can sit there and deny that you're not an elitist *******, but seriously?

I wont argue with you any more. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing, exepct the pig thinks he has an angels voice and I'm 'bout ready to scream my head off.

Peace out folks.

 

[Tank McCannon]

I guess my ultimate point is that WDing not only just doesn't seem to fit into the game realistically as a whole, but adds an entirely new layer of complexity that doesn't need to be in a game like Super Smash.

I wouldn't say that WDing itself adds a whole new layer of complexity, but it opens the door to anyone that wants to take their gameplay to a new level if they like to. WDing itself isn't all that complex either, it's just how you use it, but that could be said for many attacks in the game.

You said you're a casual player and you play with friends all the time, so why take it out? Doesn't seem like it'd make much of a difference to you.

And I don't believe your comment earlier and good players being afraid of casual players. I know that I encouraged all of my friends to play at a more advanced level because I love a challenge. I dunno, maybe that's just me, but I don't honestly think that casual players are feared.

 

[Jumanji]

Ogre, first off I would not start an argument with Dylan. Not because he is almighty or something, rather because he is stuck in his opinion on this, your would be the the most recent in a long line of people that have tried to convince him. You will then get annoyed and he will get some perverse pleasure in finding new and innovative ways to calling you a scrub.
Secondly, lag is made to be reduced in the game. Look at L-canceling and Teching on flat surfaces if you want to argue that it isn't. WD has the same amount of lag as landing anyways, you are just moving at that time and it is hard to tell. So yeah you need to be able to run/walk because of the lag. Using the fact that lag shouldn't be reduced, well you are a game late, and you should be arguing about Z-canceling.
Thirdly, he is right that if you take WD it will not make anyone significantly better or worse for an extended period of time. They would adjust and the vast amount of experience that the good players have, and their vast amount of other technical skills, would still make them have a huge gap between the bad players and the good one. The idea that one technique, which really is not THAT important to most charecters, would make bad players comparable with the pros is laughable.
And no, Smash isn't an easy fighting game. It is one of those easy to learn, life time to master type things. It is INCREDIBLY easy to learn, perhaps that is what you meant.

SGX- Z-canceling from the first game was unintentional. The developers of the game knew of it and carried it over to the second game on purpose.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

...Okay. Thanks for the heads up on the first one Jumanji...

:biggrin:

Again, we all have our own opinions. And now that I think about it, I admit, I think I'm being kind of selfish.


<mockwhining>WDing with Link is hard...</mockwhining>

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Ogre, first off I would not start an argument with Dylan. Not because he is almighty or something, rather because he is stuck in his opinion on this, your would be the the most recent in a long line of people that have tried to convince him. You will then get annoyed and he will get some perverse pleasure in finding new and innovative ways to calling you a scrub.

What the hell? I haven't even called him a scrub yet. With people like him it's just implied.

Oh yes, I'm very ''stuck'' in my opinions...

Hmm I only back them up with LOGIC and EXAMPLES FROM THE GAME.

You're right, I'm a horrible debator, that post I spent the last 45 minutes working on should be ignored because it's biased from personal experience rather than something I researched and analysed from the competitive metagame itself.

You make me sick. You got one thing right though, don't start **** with me because Ill make you look stupider than falco's recovery and leave you with nothing to say except some lame remark about my social life or my ''anger issues'' *rolls eyes*

How about instead of thinking im out to get you all the time you try reading my posts and see that I'm not being rude or anything, Im using logic and a thought out opinion to convey to you what smash is really about.

And everything I say I am willing to defend, but we can just ignore your hypocricy and ignorance and terrible debating skills because you choose to brush me off? No. People read this foru, and people are laughing at how ridiculous your argument is, Ogre, and nodding their heads when they read my post.

 

[Jumanji]

Whoa Dylan, I was simply warning him what he was getting into. You are correct that most of your arguments are well thought out, if worded causticly. I do not think you are out to get anyone, if anything I think you are just very passionate about your views, and when people disagree with you with out firm footing of logic (which I agreed with you on in this case) you will mock them for it. I did not mock your debating ability and I did not say you were wrong.
The truth is I agree with you about almost every thing you have said (that is on topic.) I like WD. I think it adds to the game, and it certainly helps me play the game. It is not some magic technique that makes you win however and it really is not hard to do if you taking the time to learn how to. The only difficulty is switching between charecters with different jump start up times (Fox to Bowser is a pain) but that takes 15 seconds to fix, tops. Those are all things that you believe and I can't argue with them because I agree with you. My only issue, and it will continue to be my only issue, is I just don't think it fits in the game well, for a number of reasons which I am sure you have read. Because of that I don't think it should be in Brawl. I agree that it seems that we would be sacrificing gameplay for the "feel" of the series, but I think that the developers would put an alternative to WD in the game if they did actually take it out. In short, dunno why are so aggressive at me, you have made no argument that has touched mine, atleast not yet, and I have made no argument that was against yours, and have none that I can think of.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Whoa Dylan, I was simply warning him what he was getting into. You are correct that most of your arguments are well thought out, if worded causticly. I do not think you are out to get anyone, if anything I think you are just very passionate about your views, and when people disagree with you with out firm footing of logic (which I agreed with you on in this case) you will mock them for it. I did not mock your debating ability and I did not say you were wrong.

As I often do on these boards I offer you my sincere appologies for the misunderstanding and post of rude nature when it was not deserved. Thank you for bearing with me and explaining.

The truth is I agree with you about almost every thing you have said (that is on topic.) I like WD. I think it adds to the game, and it certainly helps me play the game. It is not some magic technique that makes you win however and it really is not hard to do if you taking the time to learn how to. The only difficulty is switching between charecters with different jump start up times (Fox to Bowser is a pain) but that takes 15 seconds to fix, tops. Those are all things that you believe and I can't argue with them because I agree with you. My only issue, and it will continue to be my only issue, is I just don't think it fits in the game well, for a number of reasons which I am sure you have read. Because of that I don't think it should be in Brawl. I agree that it seems that we would be sacrificing gameplay for the "feel" of the series, but I think that the developers would put an alternative to WD in the game if they did actually take it out. In short, dunno why are so aggressive at me, you have made no argument that has touched mine, atleast not yet, and I have made no argument that was against yours, and have none that I can think of.

Im just glad you read my posts... I was angry because I thought you were telling people to ignore my hard work

I see you have your own opinions, im not out to change em haha, Im just glad we can discuss the topic here.

What do you mean by the ''feel'' of the game if you dont mind me asking? Why is it that wavedashing subtracts from the atmosphere of smashbrothers rather than enriching it?

Or is it just something you can't explain? Because that's cool too, I get hung up on things too, believe me.

and for the record

You will then get annoyed and he will get some perverse pleasure in finding new and innovative ways to calling you a scrub.

This is what got me fired up, the ''peverse pleasure'' part of it. Stung bad because it's pretty true

good one

 

[Jumanji]

I completely understand that "perverse pleasure" because I myself tend to debate the same way in person. It is better that way, they can't run away, and don't have time to sit in think so long.

How I came to be truly "into" Melee is pretty simple. I find it a game that is incredibly easy to learn. In a day you can find out most of the moves that make up the game, and you can develop uses for most of them. It is, at its heart, pretty basic compared to alot of fighters out there. In the next couple years of playing (before I was aware of a smash community) my friends and I found out most of the advance tactics: Teching, L-cancel, short hopping, fast falling (thus SHFFLING, but I would be lieing if I said that we took in that far,) meteor canceling, JCing (shields, dashes and shines,) basic DI (only with the control stick,) and wavelanding. All of these techniques, atleast in my eyes, can be observed through the normal play of smash, if you are paying attention to what you are doing. I like that about Melee, I really do. It is a game of subtelties, in both the technical aspect and the mindgame aspect. To me wavedashing doesn't fit into the mold. I didn't know about until I stomped a few kids who used it at college (that was my introduction to the SMash Community as well.) At no point in the regular play of Melee would you jump and then before you really get off the ground airdodge into the level, unless you knew about WD. Above that it is really a specific move, achieved though a series of buttons. Certaintly the argument can be made that it is a jump and then an airdodge to the ground (after all those are it's component parts) but I think you would agree that honestly WD is its own move (after all you never really jump, unless you suck at it.) To me the idea that it is a series of buttons bothers me (because there are very few things in Melee that are a series of buttons for a single specific action, and none that I can think of that are not charecter specific) but more than that the series of buttons should never have been pressed in the first place. Those two things, the fact that it is a series and the fact that it is unatural series, don't fit into the atmosphere of Melee, because I believe Melee was meant to be a self explanatory game (thus the giant uninteresting back story.)
I am sure that sounds like sour grapes for not finding it on my own, but there are alot of advance tactics I didn't (float cancel-ing, PTP, and I am sure a ton other that I forgot to name.)
Edit: I realized I didn't say it this time so here it is: I realize this is all based on my personal experience, but I believe that the base of the experience (finding out how Melee works before being introduced to the community) is shared by most people who play the game. Perhaps I drew a unique conclusion from my own experience, and perhaps the developers do not agree with me. If they do not, I would expect more techniques like WD in Brawl, so as to not make it an anomaly (after all that is what they did with z-canceling.)

 

[maxpower1227]

What I'm basically saying about the wavedash (dunno bout the rest of you) is that there is not one, not ONE good reason to remove it. Its a great technique useful in certain situations. It's one of the easiest techniques to master in the game, children can do it. So since there is no good reason to remove it, why do so? You would only be subtracting from the game, there's no sense in that.

When you main Fox, WD is definitely NOT a trivial thing to do. It's incredibly difficult to consistently get the split-second timing correct. Stop being elitist.

And good reasons have been given for removing WD, you're just too stubborn and too OBSESSED with wavedashing to consider any of them valid.

 

[MrBitter]

When you main Fox, WD is definitely NOT a trivial thing to do. It's incredibly difficult to consistently get the split-second timing correct. Stop being elitist.

And good reasons have been given for removing WD, you're just too stubborn and too OBSESSED with wavedashing to consider any of them valid.

I disagree with this...

Wavedashing is such a trivial little input, anyone can do it.

My roomate started playing smash about a month ago. He was wavedashing within the first week. As fox. It's a jump and an airdodge. I don't see why people get so worked up over something so easy.

Also...

In the 15 second Brawl video released for E3... Right after the first scene with Wario, is Bowser not wavedashing into Fox's final smash?

 

[Takeshi245]

It seems casual gamers want to create ways to ruin competive play and yet most of us don't suggest anything to ruin casual play. If you don't like wavedashing, DON'T USE IT! It isn't a glitch because it was intended by the developers to leave it there. It's even called Land Fall Special on AR. It doesn't make anyone pro if you know how to do it. It's how you use it that makes it a good technique. Besides, from the looks of it, Brawl probably has washdashing in the game since it's just a revamping of the Melee engine.