Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[Takeshi245]

I can't really say much on this since I never learned/had the opportunity to Wavedash so I'm just going to say some things based on what I have observed.

Even though Wavedashing can be somewhat easy to learn it seems very hard to incorporate into a strategic battling style, in order to do so it's going to take alot of work in order to make use of it effectively.

On the other hand, I don't think anyone can deny that Wavedashing looks extremely glitchy with the characters that use it. If Wavedashing in in Brawl perhaps it could be reformated (appereance wise) so it doesn't appear like the person WD'ing is cheating by those who are not familar with it.

I believe that would work so that people aren't taken by suprise.

 

[MookieRah]

Face it max, if someone can't handle the manual dexterity to learn shffling or wding, even if they were made easier to do, they probably would still lose to someone like Chudat or Azen no matter what.

He's not saying that they wouldn't, he's just saying that it would maintain with the simplistic philosophy that smash was somewhat intended to be founded on.

I very much embrace them taking the melee advanced stuff to heart and making them easier to do, with the same stipulation that Dylan said of course, that we could still do them the normal way. I would prefer to wavedash like I do in melee than to have a button devoted to it, but that is just me. I've been trying to say this all along, Nintendo should just make it easier to do crazy stuff, because there isn't a reason to get rid of it and i'm sure they want to *add* stuff to brawl. They could easily add these as official abilities and make both the casual and competitive player happy.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

MookieRah, that was so well stated... *sniff*

Pardon me...I think I have something in my eye.

 

[thesage]

C stick is cheap cause you can't use it in adventure mode. U can't use the z-button and wavedashing either and you can't use the x and y buttons to jump. That makes the game totally fair.

 

[greenblob]

Here's why I and others say what we do about how the game was "meant" to be played.

In just about any other fighting game (Mortal Kombat, KI, VF, Tekken, SF, whatever), to do a special move, you have to press a certain combination of buttons with proper timing - and many of those involved rotations in an era of d-pad gaming (unless you played at an arcade). They were by no means impossible to master, but definitely were not trivial by any means and required a good deal of concentration on what buttons you were pressing.

When Smash Bros came out, the control style was radically different than anything seen before. Now to do a special move, you just have to press a button. This greatly simplified the button mechanics and made the game strategy solely about knwoing how and when to use your moves. You still needed quick thinking and reflexes, but your ability to perform precise movements with your fingers was no longer an issue. This seems like a clearly intentional attempt to change the focus of fighting games and make them more about mental ability than manual dexterity.

So with that in mind, what would the tournament players say to Nintendo if they decided to make all of the aadvanced techniques easy to pull off? If they were all made public knowledge and easy to perform, the game would still have a large amount of strategy - as you all say, the skill lies in knowing when to use the moves, not in merely being able to perform them. If that's true, then there should be no problem in making them all easy to perform.

Even if it had twice as many techs as it does now, Melee would still be by far the least technical fighting game that has an active competitive scene. Compared to the fighting games you listed, they are already extremely easy to perform.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Even if it had twice as many techs as it does now, Melee would still be by far the least technical fighting game that has an active competitive scene. Compared to the fighting games you listed, they are already extremely easy to perform.

Such a good point, I cant believe its not butter.

 

[Wyvern]

You know...I just realized how hideously easy it would be for them to change the input for wavedashing to "diagonal-down while shielding". And this whole argument would cease to be an issue entirely.

 

[psicicle]

However in that system, perfect wavedashes would be tough unless they changed the thersholds around for it... but then it would be tougher to get the precise distance that you would want.

 

[Jet_Kirby]

I'm starting to wonder if they changed the physics so that players don't lose all of their forward momentum when they land on the ground.

me too.

This has probably been said before here (dont have the patience to read through 61 pages of wavedash lingo) but im definitely wondering if wavedash and a lot of other "advanced techniques" are going to work at all in brawl.

 

[Johnknight1]

About the one button WD deal, IDK wat to think of it, I would have to try it before I really have a opinon about it. I'm thinkning about it, and can't draw a conclusion at all, expcept a big question mark. It's just simplifying the simple, that was easy enough to do. I would have to try it, this is a big quesiton in my mind, though I doubt there will be a wavedashing button.

 

[MookieRah]

You know...I just realized how hideously easy it would be for them to change the input for wavedashing to "diagonal-down while shielding". And this whole argument would cease to be an issue entirely.

No, that wouldn't be that great. I say that because I don't want the extra delay that comes from waiting on the shield to come up. If they just made it work by holding L/R and then pressing diagonal left or right without it depending on the shield it wouldn't be so bad.

I suppose it would be alright but I can't see any benefit in lessening the skill gradient between the good and the bad.

Keep in mind that it only makes it easier to perform, the skill to use it is a whole different story. On top of that, there will definitely be new glitches/exploits/not glitches/cheap/dishonorable/comepetitive/advanced techniques (take your pick for terminology!) things that will require more tech skill to perform so it's not like tech skill would simply disappear. The more options we have, the crazier this game becomes. It will be nice to have so many options that every person plays incredibly unique. I know everyone already plays differently, but to make it more apparent would just be awesome.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

About the one button WD deal, IDK wat to think of it, I would have to try it before I really have a opinon about it. I'm thinkning about it, and can't draw a conclusion at all, expcept a big question mark. It's just simplifying the simple, that was easy enough to do. I would have to try it, this is a big quesiton in my mind, though I doubt there will be a wavedashing button.

New from Nintendo! The Super Smash Controller now with a Wavedash button! (Little button that says WD on it right up above the Z button....ROTFLMFAO

 

[ICEIGHT]

DOnt they have the previews at e3, someone should test it out or somone like that

 

[Adi]

1) E3 is already over
2) No they didn't have one

 

[CrystalMidnight]

I honestly think it might be fun if they change it up some. I mean comeon getting to do the same old thing gets boring after a while. I personally like a challenge, and if it means changing up what we are use to and like. So they take Wave dash maybe there'll be something better

 

[Wyvern]

No, that wouldn't be that great. I say that because I don't want the extra delay that comes from waiting on the shield to come up. If they just made it work by holding L/R and then pressing diagonal left or right without it depending on the shield it wouldn't be so bad.

Yeah, I meant "while holding the shield button" moreso than I meant "while the visible shield is up". Of course I would have no problem with it breaking the shield animation. Sorry if that was unclear. (Come to think of it, does dodging require that you wait for the animation? I didn't think it did, but I can't remember now.)

It just seems like a really obvious place to put it. Not timing-reliant, analogous to the current rolling ground dodges, very similar to the current input, etc.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

get rid of wave dash. let the 'pros' earn their title again through other means of the game.

 

[_Phloat_]

get rid of wave dash. let the 'pros' earn their title again through other means of the game.

Pros could beat you without wavedash.

 

[MookieRah]

I honestly think it might be fun if they change it up some. I mean comeon getting to do the same old thing gets boring after a while. I personally like a challenge, and if it means changing up what we are use to and like. So they take Wave dash maybe there'll be something better

Unless every single new feature to Brawl is completely worthless, then Brawl will be significantly different from melee. Wavedashing wouldn't make Brawl a melee clone. If the developers make Brawl extremely similar to melee then wavedashing wouldn't be a significant factor to making it too similar to melee. Seriously, wavedashing adds to the game and the only reason to take it out is just change for the sake of change. If it's not bad, then why take it out?

get rid of wave dash. let the 'pros' earn their title again through other means of the game.

The pros will **** brawl with or without wavedash. Are you one of those people that think that Brawl will put everyone on an even level again? If you honestly think that then I would like you to rethink that. Wavedashing is such a small part to what makes a pro a pro. It's a nice way to maneuver, but it's just maneuvering. Pros can gauge, predict, and outsmart their opponents. If you strip them of all the advance techniques to a dumbed down version of melee, they would still beat you, but if you strip all that out of the game, it will be such a shallow game in comparison. I don't want Brawl to be a shallow game.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Pros could beat you without wavedash.

this may be true. tell them to 'not' use it, then! its so ingrained into a smasher's style of play, its almost impossible for them to NOT do it. which brings me to my point that it doesnt need to be in there. why do we need it? what purpose does it serve? if they can beat me without it, why is it there? the difference between crouch cancelling, teching, and all that crap is that they were intentionally programmed into the game. wavedashing is a mistake, they may have known about it first hand, but they certainly didnt take the time to balance it out at all.

The pros will **** brawl with or without wavedash. Are you one of those people that think that Brawl will put everyone on an even level again? If you honestly think that then I would like you to rethink that. Wavedashing is such a small part to what makes a pro a pro. It's a nice way to maneuver, but it's just maneuvering. Pros can gauge, predict, and outsmart their opponents. If you strip them of all the advance techniques to a dumbed down version of melee, they would still beat you, but if you strip all that out of the game, it will be such a shallow game in comparison. I don't want Brawl to be a shallow game.

haha what a slippery slope we have here,
"if a game has no advanced techniques, the game will be shallow. you dont want wavedashing in the game, therefore you want smash to become a shallow game".
rethink your logic, buddy.

If its simply a mode of maneuvering, and makes no difference, and was an accident in the first place, what do we need it for?

do you honestly think those pro players will pick up smash the day it comes out and own everyone? no. its a game, games don't instantly become part of your repertoire. you and i can become pros at any game with time. its like an art, a musical genius won't pick up a paint brush and some oil paints and suddenly become the next van gogh, its all about mileage, time spent and time well invested.
...perhaps understanding some of the mind games of smash (such as running towards where they roll to grab them) may give you a bit of an advantage, but in the end, what purpose does carrying over a mistake from one game to another going to accomplish?

in other fighting games such as tekken, street fighter, soul calibur, characters and 'advanced techniques' are changed around so much that you practically have to relearn your character and even the entire game once you get the game again.

the reason people want to keep wave dashing is because the people who abuse the technique to a point where they cant play the game without it will be loss without it when brawl comes out; they're terrified of having to change things up. theyll be forced to do something differently than what they did in melee. its time to move along; from the looks of things, youre gonna have to leave your wave dashing behind.

p.s.

i wavedash too and im pretty good

 

[Takalth]

One problem with solutions like the "one button wavedash" is that they make the game less beginner-friendly. Having advanced techniques buried a little bit means that people who pick up the game see something reasonably simple, and it's only as they get deeper into the game that all of this comes to light. When you present all of the fancy stuff on the surface, the game looks complicated and drives people away.

That's why some of the intended advanced techniques aren't in the instruction book. You present something simple but offer depth for your more devoted players who are going to be making discoveries or looking up techniques on the Internet.

 

[Takeshi245]

One problem with solutions like the "one button wavedash" is that they make the game less beginner-friendly. Having advanced techniques buried a little bit means that people who pick up the game see something reasonably simple, and it's only as they get deeper into the game that all of this comes to light. When you present all of the fancy stuff on the surface, the game looks complicated and drives people away.

That's why some of the intended advanced techniques aren't in the instruction book. You present something simple but offer depth for your more devoted players who are going to be making discoveries or looking up techniques on the Internet.

A good point Takalth.

 

[psicicle]

"why do we need it? what purpose does it serve? if they can beat me without it, why is it there"

It adds depth

"If its simply a mode of maneuvering, and makes no difference, and was an accident in the first place, what do we need it for?"

I could say the same thing in reverse to you. If it makes so little difference then why should it be taken out? If a pro can beat you with or without it, why take it out?

""do you honestly think those pro players will pick up smash the day it comes out and own everyone?""

I know that they would beat me playing for the first time.

"in other fighting games such as tekken, street fighter, soul calibur, characters and 'advanced techniques' are changed around so much that you practically have to relearn your character and even the entire game once you get the game again."

That does not mean it is correct or better to do so.

"from the looks of things, youre gonna have to leave your wave dashing behind."

???

I don't think so.

"i wavedash too and im pretty good"

You being able to wavedash does not make your argument any better.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

the reason it will most likely be removed is because it is a glitch, no matter how you look at it.

edit: not to mention the game's gravity is getting an overhaul. air combat being more viable = slower fall speed most likely, which could effectively get rid of wave dashing.

and i said i wavedash because people like to assume that those who dont want it in the game are those who dont know how to use it

 

[Linari Sabre]

Whoa I like this guy, indeed its a glitch no matter what, the devs didnt have enough time to balance the game out plus sakurai did say that characters will have a slight different favor this time around

Wave dash is basically the use of invisiblity frames during for example when fox shines some character they slide along ground while getting up. Not sure though

 

[180OP]

My theory is that Jiangjunizzy=Wegus back for round 2.

WD/= glitch. Do your research.

WD is not useless. Look at youtube vids for advice.

You contradict yourself. How can you say WD is useless yet then say "you use it"?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I never said that it's useless.

It was said that 'pros can not use WD and do just as well'. I retorted: if so, why do we need it?

If it is needed, then something needs to be done about it.

and how is WD not a glitch? its basically air dodging downwards in a diagonal direction to decrease lag from moving. believe it or not, it has become the bread and butter of many characters, and if so, why would such a fundamental technique not be mentioned in the manual? not have a button assigned for itself?

smash bros. trademark style is being very simple. attack, special attack, moving, jumping, shielding, and grabbing. there is no "WAVE DASH" button. it is a mistake. get over it.

conclusion: its an unintended byproduct of the physics engine, a bug, a ******* child, a faux pas on the gameplay that has been drilled into this forum's idea of a good player.

 

[RDK]

Wow.

My theory is that Jiangjunizzy=Wegus back for round 2.

Do we really need another one of those fiascos?

Wegus FTW.

As for all this....

and how is WD not a glitch? its basically air dodging downwards in a diagonal direction to decrease lag from moving.

It's not a glitch. It's expoiting a known factor in the game to it's fullest and most efficient extent. Decreasing move lag isn't cheating.

why would such a fundamental technique not be mentioned in the manual? not have a button assigned for itself?

Beacause it would cheapen the SSB metagame--it would cheapen the techs themselves to a mere pushable button--and most of all, it would cheapen the efforts of those who actually spent hours upon hours learning how to WD.

smash bros. trademark style is being very simple. attack, special attack, moving, jumping, shielding, and grabbing. there is no "WAVE DASH" button. it is a mistake. get over it.

Mistake? L-Cancelling wasn't taken out of Melee after it had been in Smash 64. You aren't giving Sakurai and his minions enough credit if you don't think they're aware of WD'ing and advanced techs.

conclusion: its an unintended byproduct of the physics engine, a bug, a ******* child, a faux pas on the gameplay that has been drilled into this forum's idea of a good player.

There are many good players who don't WD--(insert good example here). Can't think of any right now, but still--you can go ahead and stubbornly refuse to use advanced techs, but don't expect to get very far in tournaments/online play.

 

[psicicle]

It was said that 'pros can not use WD and do just as well'. I retorted: if so, why do we need it?

Go back one page.

WD being a glitch or being unintended has ZERO effect on whether it will stay or be removed from brawl. WD being a glitch or unintended has ZERO effect on how it affects the game, and whether the game is better because of it or not.

Seriously, somebody needs to make one post addressing every one of these "arguments" so others can just post a link to it whenever somebody says this or trolls or whatever.

 

[WaveShiner X]

Well...at least air dodging is in brawl.

 

[RDK]

Seriously, somebody needs to make one post addressing every one of these "arguments" so others can just post a link to it whenever somebody says this or trolls or whatever.

I might do just that...

But then again...the flaming of 60+ pages of wrong views and the highlighting of the good ones would make for a fairly long post.

It might even get Sticky'd.

Well...at least air dodging is in brawl.

....

Not even gonna touch that.

 

[1337marth]

Pros could beat you without wavedash.

I am a pro and I use no wave dashing, I use wave rolls and wave landing, I wave dash some with my fox though.

 

[psicicle]

Well, I mean just a general FAQ of all of these arguments. There aren't really that many, basically it goes:

WD is glitch

WD is unintended

WD is unfair

WD is not honorable

WD should be taken out so brawl is different

WD is overpowered (lol)

WD is cheating

WD has not effect on the game (apparently what that guy posted)

 

[RDK]

Here goes:

WD is glitch

No.

WD is unintended

Nope.

WD is unfair

Nada.

WD is not honorable

Zip.

WD should be taken out so brawl is different

Niet.

WD is overpowered

Nein.

WD is cheating

...........Nah.

WD has not effect on the game

Maybe....

No, that one's no too. Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

 

[chaos_Leader]

I'm sure the wavedash is safe

According to Sakurai, his employees at HAL Laboratories played ssbm every lunch break (and I would think for several hours outside work) every day since it's release in 2001 and were amazingly good players. Sakurai has pulled a great number of his HAL employees for work on brawl. If anybody knows the the little 'glitches' like L-canceling, wavedashing and other such, it would be their own creators. Sakurai's employees come from some of the hardiest stock of Smash players out there. I seriously doubt they will let the wavedash and other 'glithces' they value themselves go away for Brawl. I'm quite sure the wavedash is safe. And who knows? You may even find another handy 'glitch' for high level play.

see this page for my refferences: http://web.archive.org/web/20070320111215/www.smashbros.com/en/story/page_3.html

I've already posted this on another thread, but it seemed appropriate here.

 

[slikvik]

I never said that it's useless.

It was said that 'pros can not use WD and do just as well'. I retorted: if so, why do we need it?

If it is needed, then something needs to be done about it.

and how is WD not a glitch? its basically air dodging downwards in a diagonal direction to decrease lag from moving. believe it or not, it has become the bread and butter of many characters, and if so, why would such a fundamental technique not be mentioned in the manual? not have a button assigned for itself?

smash bros. trademark style is being very simple. attack, special attack, moving, jumping, shielding, and grabbing. there is no "WAVE DASH" button. it is a mistake. get over it.

conclusion: its an unintended byproduct of the physics engine, a bug, a ******* child, a faux pas on the gameplay that has been drilled into this forum's idea of a good player.

people, this is clearly a joke account. there is no way someone can be this stupid. just ignore it

 

[MuraRengan]

I am fully for WD in Brawl. But just as some consider it a glitch and others don't, i all comes down to the developers opinion. If they believe that it is a glitch it will be taken out. if they don't they will keep it. Nintendo will do whatever makes the game more successful.

However, we must remember Nintendo's appearance is at stake. Since WD is such a controversial matter they may remove it to make sure that everyone enjoys their game (because we know that there are people who are childish enough to not play a game because of one little factor).

I feel that if they keep it they should make it known in some visible way. They would look biased if they just let it stay without saying anything.

 

[RDK]

(because we know that there are people who are childish enough to not play a game because of one little factor).

Let those people do what they want. If they choose to suffer just because WD, etc. is left in, then they deserve to stew in their own cauldron of stubbornness and incompetence.

 

[zerosin]

Glitch or no glitch, it's in Melee and it's made the game better (in my mind). Why take it out?
Though Brawl will use the Melee engine, I hope it's not a complete Melee clone. Sakurai will surprise us with some new stuff and we'll pleasantly enjoy some old techs as well. The game can either get deeper or more shallow from this point on; I hope it's the former.
One-touch WDing takes the purpose of WDing out; it's not just some instant technique that makes you fantastic. It requires proper use; abuse it and you're screwed.

However, we must remember Nintendo's appearance is at stake. Since WD is such a controversial matter they may remove it to make sure that everyone enjoys their game (because we know that there are people who are childish enough to not play a game because of one little factor).

Please hope you're wrong; those people will just find something else that ticks them off. Leave it and give another tech to make the "children" happy.

 

[Midna]

personally, I liked the gameplay of SSB64 better than Melee's.
Melee is better only because there's moer everything (more characters, stages, items, modes, etc.)
I personally liked the overpowered throws and impenetrable shields.