Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[Dylan_Tnga]

Yay, another person who signed up just to harass me.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Your so on the verge of getting ba...

whatever, the point is, as cool as wavedashing is, the way that advanced players use it clear were not intentional. That doesn't it mean it's bad, but still, it should be noted.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Your so on the verge of getting ba...

whatever, the point is, as cool as wavedashing is, the way that advanced players use it clear were not intentional. That doesn't it mean it's bad, but still, it should be noted.

lol you're so persistent.

Sorry I got mad at you before

OK fine, sakurai didn't intend luigi to wavedash backwards to edgehog while charging a smash. I guess... whatever..

happy?

and ya Im gonna be banned pretty soon by the looks of it. meh.

 

[psicicle]

Your so on the verge of getting ba...

whatever, the point is, as cool as wavedashing is, the way that advanced players use it clear were not intentional. That doesn't it mean it's bad, but still, it should be noted.

I'll give you that. But... how is that relevant? Most overpowered (or average, since all characters have pretty good techniques) were not intended, were they?

I saw an earlier post saying that it isn't fair for someone who doesn't now how to wavedash. WHOSE FAULT IS IT THAT THEY DON'T KNOW? Duh, it is unfair to have more knowledge of the game than someone else, however that generally falls under the "skill" umbrella. If it is so unfair that they have to look it up, then I guess my dedication to the game that helped me find this site should not be rewarded.

How are we supposed to know what was intended and what wasn't? If you can guess that WDing is overpowered

Fox- drillshine combo not intended, pretty much none of his shine stuff was.

Falco- SHL not intended, pillaring not intended

IC- desyncs, uptilt anti-arial, nanapault, etc

Ness- jackets

Peach- float cancel

Luigi- Wavedash

And in addition to specific techs, each of these characters was not meant to be played in the style of how pros play them. If they were intended to be that way, the Sakurai and his crew must have some **** good foresight to predict every combo that would be useful in competitive play.

Hell, if they didn't include the A button in the how to play, would you say that was overpowered because it wasn't intended? That it is unfair to use it because other people are unaware of what it can do? I doubt it.

Look at this quote:

"I don't care if it was intentional, it wasn't meant to be exploited, and Luigi shouldn't be that fast. Your not suppose to be able to charge smash attacks while moving backwards without changing direction to then edge hog. I'm sorry, but that's not suppose to happen"

Look closer:

"I don't care if it was intentional"

"Your not suppose to"

What???

1) How do you know
2) Why do intentions matter?

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Intentions don't matter if you embrace modernist philosophy ^_^

 

[RDK]

Banned (6 Points)

What? Why, Dylan--why? Now the boards will be slow for another week.

whatever, the point is, as cool as wavedashing is, the way that advanced players use it clear were not intentional. That doesn't it mean it's bad, but still, it should be noted.

I'm going to have to side with the belief that despite the gamemaker's INTENTIONS, wavedashing does exist, and is in fact part of the game. They can have all the intentions in the world, but once they release their game, it's public business now.

 

[greenblob]

The "not intentional" argument doesn't work so well. Wavedashing is merely an unintended effect of the game's physics. Z-canceling was a pure glitch. And what happened to Z-canceling?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

wow i have never seen so much whining about a game that's not even out yet

at least you didn't threaten to kill anyone

oh wai-

 

[Doggalina]

The "not intentional" argument doesn't work so well. Wavedashing is merely an unintended effect of the game's physics. Z-canceling was a pure glitch. And what happened to Z-canceling?

You know what, I'm not sure if Z-canceling was a 100% glitch. Think about it, you Z-cancel in 64 with the Z button (which also shields). In Melee, you L-cancel with the L, R, or Z buttons (which all shield). I think the shield overrides landing lag somehow, even if the shield doesn't come out.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

You know what, I'm not sure if Z-canceling was a 100% glitch. Think about it, you Z-cancel in 64 with the Z button (which also shields). In Melee, you L-cancel with the L, R, or Z buttons (which all shield). I think the shield overrides landing lag somehow, even if the shield doesn't come out.

As far as I know, that IS what happened in SSB64... Then HAL Labs embraced it and animated it...

 

[greenblob]

You could Z-cancel with R, which grabs (but it puts up the shield too...).

 

[Revven]

I may not be able to do wavedashing but I do know someone who can (but just doesn't use it against me or anyone else, as he's being on the fair playing field with me). Now, whether WD was intentional or not doesn't really matter as it was found to be as a "glitch" so to speak with airdodging and landing on the ground. The same goes for wavelanding, all it really does it gets rid of the lag for landing on the ground and makes you slide a little because of your jump and the direction you moved the analoug stick.

Whether this'll be implemented into Brawl, I would have to guess it would appear in a new way/form. Sort of how Z-Canceling became L-Canceling. Since, the physics of this game will change, so will probably the glitches of the previous physics engine. It's possible they'll even be gone and some new physic glitches may appear.

Ahhh...but this is just my speculation. We'll see in due time.

 

[The Hypnotist]

The point is, the "it's in the game so it's fine" arugement is fine. The freeze glitch is fine!

 

[The Hypnotist]

lol you're so persistent.

Sorry I got mad at you before

OK fine, sakurai didn't intend luigi to wavedash backwards to edgehog while charging a smash. I guess... whatever..

happy?

and ya Im gonna be banned pretty soon by the looks of it. meh.

I'm happy! Hahaha, I'm not trying to make a huge deal out of nothing, I just hate it when someone knows I'm right, and they just can't admit it because they are afraid of contradicting themselves. It's ok to change you mind.

 

[The Hypnotist]

I'll give you that. But... how is that relevant? Most overpowered (or average, since all characters have pretty good techniques) were not intended, were they?

I saw an earlier post saying that it isn't fair for someone who doesn't now how to wavedash. WHOSE FAULT IS IT THAT THEY DON'T KNOW? Duh, it is unfair to have more knowledge of the game than someone else, however that generally falls under the "skill" umbrella. If it is so unfair that they have to look it up, then I guess my dedication to the game that helped me find this site should not be rewarded.

How are we supposed to know what was intended and what wasn't? If you can guess that WDing is overpowered

Fox- drillshine combo not intended, pretty much none of his shine stuff was.

Falco- SHL not intended, pillaring not intended

IC- desyncs, uptilt anti-arial, nanapault, etc

Ness- jackets

Peach- float cancel

Luigi- Wavedash

And in addition to specific techs, each of these characters was not meant to be played in the style of how pros play them. If they were intended to be that way, the Sakurai and his crew must have some **** good foresight to predict every combo that would be useful in competitive play.

Hell, if they didn't include the A button in the how to play, would you say that was overpowered because it wasn't intended? That it is unfair to use it because other people are unaware of what it can do? I doubt it.

Look at this quote:

"I don't care if it was intentional, it wasn't meant to be exploited, and Luigi shouldn't be that fast. Your not suppose to be able to charge smash attacks while moving backwards without changing direction to then edge hog. I'm sorry, but that's not suppose to happen"

Look closer:

"I don't care if it was intentional"

"Your not suppose to"

What???

1) How do you know
2) Why do intentions matter?

Very good points. However play a level 9 Ice Climbers, and you'll see de-synching. And as great as FCing is (I'm a Peach) it's not as crazy as moving backwards without changing directions while attacking into an egde hog.

As far as "How do I know" the intentions. I don't. But do you honestly beilive that they expected people to "the long wding thing I'm tired of typing..."?

 

[Tank McCannon]

The point is, the "it's in the game so it's fine" arugement is fine. The freeze glitch is fine!

Yeah, but we can explain why wavedashing happens. Intentional or not, it makes sense, the freeze glitch does not.

 

[Heflito]

What it all comes down to is this, it's a new game and things are bound to change. Even if Sakurai doesn't embrace Wavedashing, or some of the other "glitch tech" and 'fixes' them, the game will still present new ways to play as well as new advanced techniques which I for one am looking forward to exploring.

Also on a side note Demon machinE, I respect your desicion to not play Brawl if WDing isn't in it as that is a very important feature and understandably it might ruin the game for you, but when someone is boycotting something it generally means that they are tring to hinder or stop it til' they have they're way. (i.e: the bus boycotte back in Rosa Parks' day and such) to avoid such a harsh response you should have just said you weren't going to play it instead of impling an attack against HAL with the word 'Boycotte', even if that wasn't your intent.

(I didn't read all 68 pages so if the above issue was properly adressed already I apologize)

 

[The Hypnotist]

Yeah, but we can explain why wavedashing happens. Intentional or not, it makes sense, the freeze glitch does not.

We can explain how wavedashing happens, ture. However we can explain why the Freeze Glitch happens. It's somewhat over powered, period.

 

[psicicle]

It is a useful tech, but all the characters can do it. It is analogous to SHFFLing, in that some characters have crappy WDs and some have crappy SHFFLs.

Not all characters can freeze glitch.

Also now I have pi to 2 decimal places times 100 as my post count

edit: I went back and realised that I was arguing against something that nobody said

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

"people, this is clearly a joke account. there is no way someone can be this stupid. just ignore it"

Does making posts like this make you feel as though you've accomplished something?

Anywho.

So here are the basic arguments:

1. We don't need wavedashing, but it helps us.

I still stand by my point, if pros don't this advanced technique, to hell with it. It looks stupid, it's too difficult for beginners to get used too, isn't balanced among the different characters, and ruins my controller!

2. Wavedashing was found by the developers before hand but was left in.

I honestly believe they couldn't have anticipated the impact this technique had on the gameplay, which is why it's still in the game.

3. Wave dashing is in the game, whether or not it was intentional or not is not important.

I refuse to believe that wave dashing is intended because of how poorly it was implemented. Some characters that clearly do not need it (Marth) have incredibly good wave dashing, vs. characters that could benefit from it (Zelda).
second of all, there are all kinds of little glitches in this game which pros thrive upon. the laziness of the developers of melee proved to be another flaw of the games, anyone can pick up marth or sheik and totally **** anyone in 'low tiers'. Also, another culprit is the edge hogging problem. When one is holding onto the edge, and hits L or R, they roll off. Anyone who is unlucky enough to attempt to recover during this time will plummet to their death. This will most likely be fixed in brawl because of how ridiculous it is. It's in melee, pros use it to their advantage. And, with a little hope that the game testers are doing their job, it will be no more.

and other stupid little glitches in the game that 'pros' thrive on. no matter how you look at it, the best player will be able to utilize every little broken feature that gives every little bit of advantage to its full effect.


conclusion~in the end i hope the development team does their best to select which 'glitches' to keep and which to remove. personally i find WDing stupid, it ruins the feel of the game.

then again, it could still be in, but 'fixed' some how. in some of the movies, you can clearly see characters like meta knight 'dashing' behind their enemies (another character does this, forget who). perhaps it will be nicely moderated to prevent abuse of it.

the point of brawl is to provide a new experience. if all we worry about is how similar it is going to be compared to melee, then we are just going to be very unhappy with it with the direction its going.. (not that i mind )

 

[Testament27]

wavedashing is a flaw in the physics of melee....and personally...id like to see it stay in melee.


Brawl= no wavedash ftw

 

[NES n00b]

We can explain how wavedashing happens, ture. However we can explain why the Freeze Glitch happens. It's somewhat over powered, period.

Ok, defined overpowered. If everyone can do it, it can't ruin the balance of the game too much. It does not make the game unwinnalbe to people who don't wavedash (look at Ken a couple years back).

So please just define.

 

[RDK]

Here we go again. *cracks knuckles*

So here are the basic arguments:

1. We don't need wavedashing, but it helps us.

I still stand by my point, if pros don't this advanced technique, to hell with it. It looks stupid, it's too difficult for beginners to get used too, isn't balanced among the different characters, and ruins my controller!

...okay. That one doesn't even count--it was posted by that 1337Marth guy, who currently has a relevent post counter of approximately negative twenty three.

2. Wavedashing was found by the developers before hand but was left in.

I honestly believe they couldn't have anticipated the impact this technique had on the gameplay, which is why it's still in the game.

You're calling Sakurai and the developers idiots if you think they wouldn't have realized how extra frames of invincibility caused by a simple combination of buttons would effect the gameplay. Come on--you didn't even try very hard on that argument.

3. Wave dashing is in the game, whether or not it was intentional or not is not important.

I refuse to believe that wave dashing is intended because of how poorly it was implemented. Some characters that clearly do not need it (Marth) have incredibly good wave dashing, vs. characters that could benefit from it (Zelda).
second of all, there are all kinds of little glitches in this game which pros thrive upon. the laziness of the developers of melee proved to be another flaw of the games, anyone can pick up marth or sheik and totally **** anyone in 'low tiers'. Also, another culprit is the edge hogging problem. When one is holding onto the edge, and hits L or R, they roll off. Anyone who is unlucky enough to attempt to recover during this time will plummet to their death. This will most likely be fixed in brawl because of how ridiculous it is. It's in melee, pros use it to their advantage. And, with a little hope that the game testers are doing their job, it will be no more.

Everything said here is just an excuse NOT to take the time to bring your game to the next level. A good gamer doesn't ***** about "cheap" techniques, etc. He learns how to overcome them and uses them to the best ability.

 

[Red Exodus]

Since this is a joke [I think] then I'll just refer to you to prevent confusion [I assume you're playing devil advocate or something =/]

3. Wave dashing is in the game, whether or not it was intentional or not is not important.

I refuse to believe that wave dashing is intended because of how poorly it was implemented. Some characters that clearly do not need it (Marth) have incredibly good wave dashing, vs. characters that could benefit from it (Zelda).
second of all, there are all kinds of little glitches in this game which pros thrive upon. the laziness of the developers of melee proved to be another flaw of the games, anyone can pick up marth or sheik and totally **** anyone in 'low tiers'. Also, another culprit is the edge hogging problem. When one is holding onto the edge, and hits L or R, they roll off. Anyone who is unlucky enough to attempt to recover during this time will plummet to their death. This will most likely be fixed in brawl because of how ridiculous it is. It's in melee, pros use it to their advantage. And, with a little hope that the game testers are doing their job, it will be no more.

and other stupid little glitches in the game that 'pros' thrive on. no matter how you look at it, the best player will be able to utilize every little broken feature that gives every little bit of advantage to its full effect.

Simple answer for you. Don't play against pros. You won't see any of this stuff if you fight noobs so stop trying to ruin for competitive smashers especially since it doesn't affect you.

conclusion~in the end i hope the development team does their best to select which 'glitches' to keep and which to remove. personally i find WDing stupid, it ruins the feel of the game.

then again, it could still be in, but 'fixed' some how. in some of the movies, you can clearly see characters like meta knight 'dashing' behind their enemies (another character does this, forget who). perhaps it will be nicely moderated to prevent abuse of it.

the point of brawl is to provide a new experience. if all we worry about is how similar it is going to be compared to melee, then we are just going to be very unhappy with it with the direction its going.. (not that i mind )

How do you know what the game is supposed to feel like? Did Sakurai walk over to your house and discuss it with you?

I like games that have different feels at different levels, games that are fresh cut and dried die a lot faster.

 

[Takalth]

Also, another culprit is the edge hogging problem. When one is holding onto the edge, and hits L or R, they roll off. Anyone who is unlucky enough to attempt to recover during this time will plummet to their death. This will most likely be fixed in brawl because of how ridiculous it is.

We know for sure that edge hogging is a glitch because there's a separate score after the battle for characters who edge hogged. Typically, when a glitch or unintended feature is found in a game by the developers or testers, they give players extra points for using it.

 

[Tank McCannon]

We can explain how wavedashing happens, ture. However we can explain why the Freeze Glitch happens. It's somewhat over powered, period.

Really? Please explain. I'm not trying to be a smart ***, I just want to know.

For wavedashing, you gain speed when you airdodge, so when you hit the ground at an angle, you slide. It's the same concept as running and jumping on a hardwood floor just wearing socks. That's how I explain wavedashing.

Please explain how the freeze glitch works and how it makes sense.

 

[psicicle]

"3. Wave dashing is in the game, whether or not it was intentional or not is not important.

I refuse to believe that wave dashing is intended because of how poorly it was implemented. Some characters that clearly do not need it (Marth) have incredibly good wave dashing, vs. characters that could benefit from it (Zelda).
second of all, there are all kinds of little glitches in this game which pros thrive upon. the laziness of the developers of melee proved to be another flaw of the games, anyone can pick up marth or sheik and totally **** anyone in 'low tiers'. Also, another culprit is the edge hogging problem. When one is holding onto the edge, and hits L or R, they roll off. Anyone who is unlucky enough to attempt to recover during this time will plummet to their death. This will most likely be fixed in brawl because of how ridiculous it is. It's in melee, pros use it to their advantage. And, with a little hope that the game testers are doing their job, it will be no more.

and other stupid little glitches in the game that 'pros' thrive on. no matter how you look at it, the best player will be able to utilize every little broken feature that gives every little bit of advantage to its full effect.


conclusion~in the end i hope the development team does their best to select which 'glitches' to keep and which to remove. personally i find WDing stupid, it ruins the feel of the game.

then again, it could still be in, but 'fixed' some how. in some of the movies, you can clearly see characters like meta knight 'dashing' behind their enemies (another character does this, forget who). perhaps it will be nicely moderated to prevent abuse of it.

the point of brawl is to provide a new experience. if all we worry about is how similar it is going to be compared to melee, then we are just going to be very unhappy with it with the direction its going.. (not that i mind )"

You didn't even address the point, all you said was that it was unintended without saying how it is important.

"no matter how you look at it, the best player will be able to utilize every little broken feature that gives every little bit of advantage to its full effect."

That is because they play to win.

Man I'm sick of people using the A button, it ruins the whole feel of the game! It's so broken man u know sum1 who doesn't play with the A button is never going to beat someone who does play with the A button period so its broken I don't want it to be in brawl /sarcasm

"anyone can pick up marth or sheik and totally **** anyone in 'low tiers'"

I'm guessing from the other parts of your post that you don't use "cheap" tactics such as spacing or whatever, and if you are being serious about this... well I obviously can't play you in person but I really think that I could beat you with any "low tier" that you choose for me. Pichu, mewtwo, anyone, even though I don't usually play as them. I regularly play people who have "picked up" marth or shiek who have not had much time to play with them, and they play so badly that even when I use a low tier character, 2v1, I end up winning a lot. Of course, I can't tell anybody's skill over the internet but I feel that playing to win > not playing to win.

 

[Teben]

It's not even a flaw in the physics of the game...it's the physics working as intended, which incidentally lead to an unpredictable "advanced technique."

If you recall, canceling was an entirely UNINTENDED aspect of Street Fighter II. Look where that took fighting games. It's pretty much fundamental for 2D fighters at this point.

Maybe WD's need to instead be explored further and implemented in a new, balance-concerning way. But, also, I've really never witnessed someone using WD's to the extent that I felt it was completely unfair.

 

[greenblob]

So here are the basic arguments:

You forgot one of the most important arguments: Z-canceling -> L-canceling.

And edgehogging was intended. You actually get points for edgehogging.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

It's not even a flaw in the physics of the game...it's the physics working as intended, which incidentally lead to an unpredictable "advanced technique."

If you recall, canceling was an entirely UNINTENDED aspect of Street Fighter II. Look where that took fighting games. It's pretty much fundamental for 2D fighters at this point.

Maybe WD's need to instead be explored further and implemented in a new, balance-concerning way. But, also, I've really never witnessed someone using WD's to the extent that I felt it was completely unfair.

i agree with you my friend as well so wd is not broken in my standerds and acctually i have fairly good players who do not wd at all so yeah.

 

[MookieRah]

I would argue back here more, but it's gotten ridiculous. It's like whenever we come to a consensus for anything new scrubs come in and start repeating the same argument that we had debated 3 times now.

All the stuff against wavedashing is silly and usually from the standpoint of "I don't like it and my friends don't either, so lets get rid of it." or "I want Brawl to be different from melee for the sake of being different." The only person to build a decent argument for it not to be in was Jumanji, and even he was able to see the competitive side of things as well.

 

[RDK]

All the stuff against wavedashing is silly and usually from the standpoint of "I don't like it and my friends don't either, so lets get rid of it." or "I want Brawl to be different from melee for the sake of being different." The only person to build a decent argument for it not to be in was Jumanji, and even he was able to see the competitive side of things as well.

...well, that's why they're scrubs. Actually, the mods should probably close this one down...you're right; there's really nothing we haven't covered, and we just keep getting scrubs that continue to argue things we've already gone over...

 

[Takeshi245]

...well, that's why they're scrubs. Actually, the mods should probably close this one down...you're right; there's really nothing we haven't covered, and we just keep getting scrubs that continue to argue things we've already gone over...

They just keep coming and coming. Why argue about something you want to get rid of if you don't even want to use it?

 

[RDK]

Wasn't arguing...I was just agreeing with Mookie...

Merely stating that this topic's been beat to a pulp.

 

[Takeshi245]

Wasn't arguing...I was just agreeing with Mookie...

Merely stating that this topic's been beat to a pulp.

I wasn't directing it at you.

 

[thesage]

Mabye somebody should make a superpost and just link to it when a new "one" comes aboard. Really there should be ones for:
Tiers (I'm a Ness main, they do exist but not to the point most people think <read: the people who don't go to tournaments>)
Wavedashing
L-cancelling
Using the c-stick
Using the Z button for air attacks (Yes, I've actually encountered this....)

 

[RDK]

Lol, sorry then Takeshi...

I'm doing like five things at once and I didn't read that well enough...

 

[Breakfast]

The c-stick should have been used for more special moves......maybe too complicated
All that L-**** sucks
Ness isn't my main..........I......don't really have one
But I'm Ness as much as I am anyone and he's awsome
I especially love fighting noobs with him cause they don't know how to be Ness so they don't know how to fight him.....It's hilarious

 

[Aeramis]

Keep L canceling needs to stay!
Short hopping and Fast falling should be in it for sure!
Edgehopping needs to stay!
More DI would be nice.
Wavedashing and Dashdancing are great for mindgames/style which I really hope they will keep.
Link's fast Spin Attack out of shield better stay!!!
Link's Bomb planting and Bomb jump are fun so I hope it stays.
Mainly as long as I still got my shffls I will be happy.
Link4Life

 

[Zodiac]

Once upon a time, for my birthday my friend helped me buy half of melee, I bought the other half and we played, I played it for years to come and demolished all who opposed me as raining smash champion. and then one day, I got a Nintendo power magazine, not like any other but one that featured an article on Smash world. and Smash world fourms. and... wavedashing. I came to SWF, and the game I had become board with was suddenly renewed with a whole new field to explore, advanced techniqes and the competitive smash scene!
yes I hope the advanced techs stay, I know that L-cancling and the like will stay, but while its likley theres no assurance that wavedashing will stay.