Active Player Thread: Ones who does not have Triforce can't go in

[-Mars-]

I wonder if DMG is aware that this isn't a very difficult tech chase considering the needle storm FORCES a get up.

Easiest tech chase you'll probably ever come across.

 

[Judo777]

Dair to grab no. I'm pretty sure the only real thing guaranteed for you guys would be either a free aerial or maybe if you were consistent enough, platform cancel an aerial so that you land on it with no lag from below and then try to grab. Still not sure if that would work, but 20+ frames is a lot to work with so that looks feasible.


If you are in the middle of FD, get grabbed, footstool, etc. You can DI the footstool and if necessary SDI the attacks to where Shiek cannot infinite you. Like from the center, you can move Wario all the way to either edge in like, 2-3 grabs. If you try Needles, you can reach it even faster.

Basically from the center, the most damage you can do if Wario is really doing what he needs to is like 20-25% or less or so. Basically, it's easier and probably worth it more to try and grab release Usmash for that damage instead of being forced to play a complicated Tech Chase that doesn't guarantee you anything or much assuming you have ideal conditions (center of the stage to start with).

i think he meant the pivot grab infinite cause weak bair stops forcing auto stand ups or rather it makes them stand up after a certain percent i think. However bair always hits u behind us i dont think u could di to the edge of the stage of we baired u away from the ledge.

 

[DMG]

Easiest tech chase? When Wario can force himself to the edge and you can't stop it? When he can DI in either direction after the footstool and if you guess wrong you more than likely will miss since Shiek moves not that fast horizontally in the air?

Trust me when I say there is a LOT for Shiek to consider and factor in this, even on the perfect stage like FD.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

^^^^

And this is why I'd rather fight a Wario straight, instead of worrying about an iffy infinite.

 

[DanGR]

Infinite or not it's free damage from a grab.

= I'm practicing it.

 

[-Mars-]

^ Somebody gets it.

 

[iLight]

i'm going to try to learn it but like dmg said its not that easy, though as far as a match up of perfect skill levels is considered this might make it a bit more even for sheik

 

[Judo777]

Easiest tech chase? When Wario can force himself to the edge and you can't stop it? When he can DI in either direction after the footstool and if you guess wrong you more than likely will miss since Shiek moves not that fast horizontally in the air?

Trust me when I say there is a LOT for Shiek to consider and factor in this, even on the perfect stage like FD.

When you say he can DI i assume you mean that he can control which direction he fall left or right. He only gets about half an inch difference from a left or right drift and im pretty sure he cant drift to the other side of sheik so it really doesnt matter which way you fall. If you are referring to the bair i suppose you can sdi away from us but thats only about another 4th inch difference. Lastly it only requires 2 needles to force a stand up so you cant sdi those too much either. I seriously doubt that you can make it to the edge very often especially since our other other choices from grab release have completely different responses that the wario should take so its kind of a guessing game. I think its worth doing but i wouldnt want to risk having to land a footstool.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I came back to check on my post and y'all are arguing over something I thought had been resolved for a while. Y'all are like a wheel. You GMAT get from one end to the other but all you are doing is the same thing. -_-
If I hadn't left I would probably almost have hit box dropping figured out.

Anyways, this is what I can remember about this footstool combo:

Because this is from a GR Wario cannot DI the release thus making a footstool 100% and easy.

The height in which an effective footstool can be pulled of at is adequate for true comboin into Bair.

The landing Bair can true combo into needles.

It forces a get up and thus another grab is garunteed.

DI is pointless if you can choose which direction to send Wario in by simply performing a small pivot before the footstool.

I prefer this combo as it is IMO more efective:
grab> gr> footstool> jab x2> regrab> repeat until f-tilt lock work and then end with a grab> pivot infinite> gr> usmash
Yes, I have used it in a match and I got it recorded. It was going into my combo video along with most of my other outlandish ideas that people said would never work/didn't listen too/ignored.


If you all want to improve Sheik look out how to use her present tools to reap larger advantages. She already has the stuff to be high tier and Tristan and I knew it. There are many things y'all need to look into. this combo is not one of them.

 

[-Mars-]

Sheik doesn't have the tools to be A tier.

 

[<π]

>: (

 

[DMG]

I came back to check on my post and y'all are arguing over something I thought had been resolved for a while. Y'all are like a wheel. You GMAT get from one end to the other but all you are doing is the same thing. -_-
If I hadn't left I would probably almost have hit box dropping figured out.

Anyways, this is what I can remember about this footstool combo:

Because this is from a GR Wario cannot DI the release thus making a footstool 100% and easy.

You footstool Wario before he can move/airdodge/attack basically. That's worded better than he cannot DI the release lol.

The height in which an effective footstool can be pulled of at is adequate for true comboin into Bair.

Assuming you do the small footstool and fast fall correctly, yes. Otherwise no (it's to be expected that if you want to do the combo correctly, that you would have that part down, but you would be surprised how many people don't)

The landing Bair can true combo into needles.

It forces a get up and thus another grab is garunteed.

Actually it depends on when the needles hit Wario. There are parts in the animation where if he is hit with a needle, it doesn't actually guarantee that it "locks" him on the ground. It's entirely possible to do it too fast, or too slow, based on exactly how close you are to him and when you initiate the needle/s.

DI is pointless if you can choose which direction to send Wario in by simply performing a small pivot before the footstool.

WRONG! Regardless of the direction I pick, you still have to guess correctly and quickly. If you are too slow/guess wrong, you will either hit Wario with Bair but at a part that won't lock him after the needle/s (which is separate from the Needle/s hitting Wario in a different animation part too), or you will completely miss and he can do other actions.

Also, pivoting doesn't do a **** thing. I can still SDI and DI those same directions, and you still have to guess correctly, and EVEN then I can force myself to the edge.

I prefer this combo as it is IMO more efective:
grab> gr> footstool> jab x2> regrab> repeat until f-tilt lock work and then end with a grab> pivot infinite> gr> usmash
Yes, I have used it in a match and I got it recorded. It was going into my combo video along with most of my other outlandish ideas that people said would never work/didn't listen too/ignored.

This combo is bad, please don't make me point out why this is bad lol. Light, do you want to come explain to this gentlemen why this is bad?



If you all want to improve Sheik look out how to use her present tools to reap larger advantages. She already has the stuff to be high tier and Tristan and I knew it. There are many things y'all need to look into. this combo is not one of them.

She does not have the stuff to be high tier.

Sheik doesn't have the tools to be A tier.

She does not have the tools to be high tier.

 

[<π]

you can DI the second hit of jab so far its rediculous. most of the time your jab's are too fast to do it on reaction, but if you get predictable with it you can't count on not a guaranteed grab.

Also:
>: (

If falco is 3rd best sheik definitely has the tools to get A...

 

[-Mars-]

I love how non-west coast players aren't impressed with Falco lol.

 

[DMG]

I've been to West Coast. I've seen DEHF play in person.

Falco has a few things holding him back to be 3rd best sadly.

 

[Tristan_win]

Since I've made the claim "Sheik for high tier" my thoughts of Sheik haven't greatly changed but with that said though my thoughts of Sheik hasn't exactly grown either. I specialize in Sheik and since she's there I know some about Zelda but the entire tier list isn't made up of Sheik and Zelda's. Just because I know a **** ton about Sheik and have some interesting ideas that were ahead of there time (which being the cocky guy I am would continue to argue for) does not mean I could ever foresee something like pikachu buff decay chain grabs that can go all the way to 120%.

From what I've seen from Sheik currently though I know she's at least in B tier. From what I continue to think about what Sheik is capable of in the future will depend on how useful jack chain will be at the end of the day and how much someone can master Sheik great tools. Which could propel her into A tier and EVERYONE who thinks otherwise I will consider them ignorant until it is proven how useless the jack chain really is.

Right now though, a lot of Sheik user just need to get better as players if we want better more constant placements in tournaments.

 

[Zori]

dmg HARD trolling the sheik boards

 

[saviorslegacy]

As much as I would love to get into a nerd fight over Sheik I am not going too.
All I would do is waist my time because most people are to much of a stuck up biggot to listen to an ideas that conflict with their beliefs. That is one of the reasons why I left.

So let me put it to you this way DMG.
"Youre a ****ing moron. You have spent to much time twiddling your life away wig other pro nerds/morons that you have probably forgotten where your ***** is located."
Bite me

I have spent to much time researching Sheik to have someone try and argue with me when I try and end an arguement.
Now where is that ****ing 4 foot tall yellow skinned slit dyed man ***** who is suposed to profesionally troll this board for us?


Have I made it clear that I am not here to play a game yet?
All I wanted to do was talk to some freinds that I left behind. <3, Tristan, Mars, Stealth and maybe a few more are the people who I am reffering too.


I want to start a bet.
I bet that I get at least 2 infractions for this. I swear no motha ****er better erease this.

 

[DMG]

Dang.

I LOVE YOU TOO BRO!

 

[<π]

Dang.

You can have differences in ideals and still be cool with said person. DMG has always struck me as a pretty chill dude.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Dang.

I LOVE YOU TOO BRO!

**** love, all it does is set you up for heart ache.

 

[Judo777]

Oh man where do i freaking start?

DMG are u aware that bair always forces u to go behind sheik? Idk if a pivot is possible or not but if it is we can bair u the direction we want u to go or away from the ledge. However you do have a point that needles are extremely SDI able and u can get pretty far but i suppose if we did the pivot right it wouldnt matter. And u cant fall behind sheik so we throw out a bair after a footstool its gonna land unless we are just really dumb cause you only get maybe a half inch difference if we guess completely wrong which wouldnt matter. However im still not saying if this is very realistic or not but maybe.

Tristan chain jack really isnt that great i have done quite a bit of testing. Chain jack becomes a powerful move but it loses its trancendant priority and i have been outpiriotized by an oli fair when using chain jack before. When it gets out prioritized or clanked with the chain just goes away. It could be nice every now and then for surprise kos and maybe edge guarding but all in all dont get ur hopes up.

Saviors no freaking offense but (while you did find alot of useful stuff) you also found alot of pretty useless stuff so dont act like u were like the best thing that happened to the sheik boards. Also stop trolling man. But concerning what u said.... jab jab grab im sry is NOT a guarenteed thing the second jab is too sdi-able as <3 said. It does work most of the time but it can be escaped especially if thats all the wario is thinking about. Also depending on how stale the bair is if you didnt pivot to where u have a lareg portion of the stage he could drift to one side then sdi the bair to the same side then sdi the full needle storm and be off the stage at this point so you have to be careful and dont think its an auto win.

but hey what do i know? That is all.

 

[DanGR]

Tristan chain jack really isnt that great i have done quite a bit of testing. Chain jack becomes a powerful move but it loses its trancendant priority and i have been outpiriotized by an oli fair when using chain jack before. When it gets out prioritized or clanked with the chain just goes away. It could be nice every now and then for surprise kos and maybe edge guarding but all in all dont get ur hopes up.

Clashing? Even if you copy an aerial?

Now... Oli's aerials will clash cancel with Sheik's. So if you copy an aerial will the attack knock the pikmin away from Oli then hit him if it overlaps Olimar's hurtbox, or will Olimar's aerial actually NOT clash cancel and beat out the chain? O.o

edit:

Sheik isn't very tournament viable on her own. She's CPed too easily. (lolcgs)

She's a great surprise character to CP others with though, and seems to have some relatively awesome matchups against a lot of the common high/top tier tournament characters. (ex. Snake, imo)

With a strong secondary or main you can go far.

/IMO, because I really have to say this so no one gets offended. <.<

 

[saviorslegacy]

Judo, I doubt you are on the same page as Tristan when he talks about the jack.

Last time I was here jab x2> grab was legit.

 

[-dMT-]

Sheik isn't very tournament viable on her own. She's CPed too easily. (lolcgs)

She's a great surprise character to CP others with though, and seems to have some relatively awesome matchups against a lot of the common high/top tier tournament characters. (ex. Snake, imo)

With a strong secondary or main you can go far.

/IMO, because I really have to say this so no one gets offended. <.<

Agreed. Sheik works well together with MK as a main/secondary from what gathered.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Ah **** this.
You all do what you want. I don't care.

Give the yellow ***** my regards.

 

[-dMT-]

Saviors. Chill out dude. No one is attacking you, so no need to get all defensive. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion which is based on their own unique experiences. Talk alone can seldom effect a great change in a person's ideas unless they weren't very confident in their ideas to begin with.

That being said, a variety in input from a variety of people with many unique, valuable experiences of their own being shared here is a valuable thing. The best we can all do is take what everyone says for what it is, question it if we have doubts, look into it, and share our thoughts. There is no need to make an argument out of this or take it on a personal level.

Also, the proving grounds for anything are not the forums, but actual matches against fellow experienced smashers.

 

[Judo777]

Clashing? Even if you copy an aerial?

Now... Oli's aerials will clash cancel with Sheik's. So if you copy an aerial will the attack knock the pikmin away from Oli then hit him if it overlaps Olimar's hurtbox, or will Olimar's aerial actually NOT clash cancel and beat out the chain? O.o

edit:

Sheik isn't very tournament viable on her own. She's CPed too easily. (lolcgs)

She's a great surprise character to CP others with though, and seems to have some relatively awesome matchups against a lot of the common high/top tier tournament characters. (ex. Snake, imo)

With a strong secondary or main you can go far.

/IMO, because I really have to say this so no one gets offended. <.<

Yea i tried a bair against oli and he faired the chain and it canceled out the hit box. The other issue is even more so than the sh chain the hitbox is much less active and therefore you can only throw out the hit box every like 8 frames or so (just a rough estimate). Also i am like 90% sure that we have tested and that chain jacketed hitboxes stale which is why if i chain jack a fsmash (which only jacks the strong hit) i have to hit you with like 16 to kill you. I suppose one of the last draw backs is you dont really know if u jacketed it properly. I mean could listen but if ur opponent is doing anything at all like jumping its really hard to hear the differences.

Saviors if I'm not on the same page as tristan please elaborate so i can try and help.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Hit box dropping and jacking multiple hit boxes.
I had that in the copy of the Diary that I gave to Mars.

 

[-dMT-]

On a happy side not. TFS Episode 11 finally!

 

[☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆]

Wtf @ppl not being impressed with falco

 

[<π]

I think he is talking about DIing needles, it isn't really common knowledge but you can DI needles ridiculously far.
You can influence the direction of your fall during the toad stool I don't know how far he can move, but I doubt it is far enough for sheik not to be able to follow it up on reaction.
Falco isn't a bad character, but I feel like people don't understand the weight of his weakness.

 

[iLight]

aka read and punish him like a *****!

 

[-Mars-]

Um if i'm reading some posts correctly then some people are making racist statements? Correct me if i'm wrong but that is completely uncalled for and really silly.

Falco's top 5 in this game. He's not 3rd because Diddy is, but I don't see him being worse than Wario, Icies, or Marth so yea.

Sheik isn't A tier, she's middle of B at best. Call me ignorant.

 

[Zankoku]

saviorslegacy, if you want to be banned, you should've just asked.

Just sayin'.

 

[Judo777]

Um if i'm reading some posts correctly then some people are making racist statements? Correct me if i'm wrong but that is completely uncalled for and really silly.

Falco's top 5 in this game. He's not 3rd because Diddy is, but I don't see him being worse than Wario, Icies, or Marth so yea.

Sheik isn't A tier, she's middle of B at best. Call me ignorant.

Falco is amazing. Falco is easily the most well rounded character in the game. He can do absolutely everything. He has outstanding camp game. Solid ground game, decent air game and tons and tons of tools. Outside of having the best non item projectile in the game behind bananas and its arguable that it is better. He got the best spike in the game and a chain grab that combos into the spike. He has solid pokes, probably some of the highest priority that isnt disjointed (maybe under like peach) and omg the best and most annpying jab flurry period. Plus hes got probably the third best DACUS and a good DA that combos into upsmash. Falcos main draw back is his poor recovery but falcos have ways to make it harder on u to gimp him. Also he can have some kill issues but much less than alot of other characters. I honestly think hes better than wario but its real close.

Saviors saying u have it written down doesnt mean anything to me lol. What do you know about the chain jacket? If there is something that we don't know then tell us. If you're not going to then don't bring it up. Not trying to sound like a jerk its just sometimes u frustrate me with saying things and then not telling us why u say them.

 

[clowsui]

<3 what is falco's weakness?

i'm very interested in seeing what you think because every person seems to think falco has a HUGE weakness other than his vertical recovery for some reason or another until they think about it and realize falco is a pretty solid character IN THE CURRENT POPULAR RULESET (i.e. hyperconservative)

 

[saviorslegacy]

saviorslegacy, if you want to be banned, you should've just asked.

Just sayin'.

Duely noted.

Saviors saying u have it written down doesnt mean anything to me lol. What do you know about the chain jacket? If there is something that we don't know then tell us. If you're not going to then don't bring it up. Not trying to sound like a jerk its just sometimes u frustrate me with saying things and then not telling us why u say them.

One of the reasons why I would not tell you guys stuff was because I was in the middle of researching something and someone would bring something and I would use what I was researching to try and fix the problem or to try and patch up her damaging system.
The problem was if I released only half of my work it would just get met with a bunch of challenges that I did not want to deal with. So I just basically said, "jus cause".

I stopped researching it and I NEVER plan on continuing, so I guess I can tell you what I do know.

I have jacketed two moves at the same time before. I believe it was FSmash and Bair. It resulted in a make shift black hole. It knocked the foe out and then the Bair knocked them back in only to be followed up by another FSmash. After that they escaped. However, they took like 35% in the process.
I was in training so it never got record and I was UNABLE to replicate it. In other words I got seriously pissed off.

I also had a hit box fall off of the chain ONCE. I was fighting a CPU Captain Falcon and practicing the spacing of the chain. I was trying to get a good feel for where to throw it out. Since CF has short range attacks I thought he would be a good subject to test on.
Some how I hit him with an USmash from the other side of the stage. I knew what it was just because I saw the effects. I had also just jacketed a USmash in that area around 20 seconds ago.
Sadly the time was at like 6 minutes and I have NEVER been able to replicate it.

I have done a few more things along this line and much to my frustration I have had the same results.
This game is far from finished in its development.
Anyways, y'all can take a crack at it if you want. I originally didn't tell ya because I wanted to find it and get the credit for all of the work that I put into it, but IDC anymore.
If any of you do figure it out please do PM me because I am very interested to see where this goes.


The only other thing that I didn't tell you guys was that you can make a Needle stay in an area. It will not move and it will not disappear (to my knowledge). I don't know how to do that freaking thing either.

God Smash is annoying. You find something and you can't freakin replicate it.
**** Sakurai for putting that stupid time limit in. It is as annoying as all get out.

 

[iLight]

Falco<MK
Falco<Snake
Falco<Diddy
Falco<Wario
Falco<D3
Falco>Marth
Falco>ROB
Falco>IC's
Falco>G&W

Falco is of course not as good as MK/Snake/Diddy
Falco is less than wario because wario's air camping/dodge/punish game too good
Falco is less than D3 because D3 can chain grab more people not to mention chain grab them harder and he lives alot longer/has more consistent kill moves
Falco is better than marth because he has lasers+chain grab+better priority
Falco is better than rob because he has a better projectile game + better priority + easier spike
Falco is better than IC's because his metagame isn't as linear and much stronger
Falco is better than G&W because he has lasers+better priority

 

[-Mars-]

Falco's biggest weakness in the current metagame imo is planking.

His recovery is average.....it's not terrible. I would even go so far to say as his recovery is superior to Sheik's. Last month I was at a tournament with both DEHF and SK and I saw them get gimped maybe twice combined and it was both by Tyrant.

Killing is not an issue considering the majority of his moveset is compltely safe and he has no problem zoning you and racking gdamage until 180 when an ftilt or dtilt will kill lol.

If you remove MK from this game i think Falco would be the best or second best character.

With MK banned the tier list would be

1. Diddy/Falco
2. Diddy/Falco
3. Snake
4. Marth
5. DDD
6. Wario