Active Player Thread: Ones who does not have Triforce can't go in

[Judo777]

I feel as if I will never finish trying to learn Sheik.
Now this post is beside prediction skills and match up knowledge, but more on how to improve your Sheik.
This might only be useful for people that already know how to use Sheik/understand Sheik well.


#1 The Chain
For the love of Christ use that d*mn Chain!!!!!!!!!!!

Spoiler

sorry Lord.....

Anyways, it is a gigantic disjoint. AH! Seriously, you aren't using your heads.
You look at it and go:
"It takes like 21 frames to start up... that's like a whole second!"
Well of course you're not going to use it as an approach you dip sh*ts.

The idea is to out space and punish with it. Take into consideration what the foe is doing.
Look at their start up lag, hit box duration lag and ending lag.
Guess what, there aren't many attack that take under 21 frames to do completely. That and they have to east start up lag again to punish you.


#2 OMG, I can't believe no one use's DACUS to combo.

u-tilt> DACUS
d-tilt> DACUS
F-Throw> DACUS
Fair> DACUS
Nair 1> DACUS
Nair 2> DACUS
Nair 3> DACUS
Bair> DACUS

Look at that... there you have kill set ups and ways to like 31% to people.


#3 Please listen to me when I say that you need to Chain a LOT at high percents.
Constantly out space and use it.

The reason why is that the attack to knock you out of Chain are so limited it isn't even funny.
The attacks that do knock you out usually have small knock back.
Thus you are limiting their KO options to none (on most MU's).
You might survive and do more damage this way.


#4 Don't underestimate situational combo's.
If Sheik has something you need to learn it.
You might only use it 12 times a year, but that is 12 times that it worked.

For example the reverse chain ground lock.
That is practically a 0 - death if done correctly.


#5 Reduce your hurt box.
For example, Uair straightens you out vertically.
Bair straightens you out horizontally.
Needle Cancel curls you into a ball and brings your legs up (my personal favorite).

I am starting to use this a lot in my game:
SH> Needle Cancel (to avoid any attack from below)> Bair/Fair/Nair

I have used it to avoid Snakes f-tilt, it is really legit.


#6 Use Vanish, but don't over do it.
Vanish can be used like Chain, but if you dash and jump cancel Vanish you get a nice boost on the ground.
It can be used to punish their approaches and lag.
Make sure that they have lag while you are vulnerable.
After that if they try anything they just have to eat their lag and get hurt.

Remember to appear at RNDM places.




Well, those are some things that I am trying to do.
Thought some of you might be interested in reading it.

I think fair to DACUS is the only one of those that can combo.

 

[j0s3ph]

i practiced sheik vs ic's and the matchup is pretty fun

i'm learning how to not get grabbed and it's pretty ****

ic's are very sluggish on the offense compared to the likes of peach or mk

Yeah I played an IC as Sheik for the first time yesterday, as long as you don't get grabbed ICs are super easy to combo

 

[saviorslegacy]

I think fair to DACUS is the only one of those that can combo.

Me think you are wrong.
Fair, Nair and Bair have the same trajectory at different percents.
Fair is the best because it is at KO percents but the other two work just as well.
Well, actually Nair #2 works at like 110/120 I believe.

D-tilt and u-tilt are not guaranteed.

 

[choknater]

i would rather fair to ftilt, my friends

 

[saviorslegacy]

i would rather fair to ftilt, my friends

That is good and all but predicting a ledge wake and punishing it with weak Nair> rapid jabs is just as cool.

Actually the most awesome flashy combo that actually works is this:
f-tilt> foe air dodges> Nair> weak hit of Nair lands> USmash tipper

Pretty much AWESOME!

 

[choknater]

what if the foe doesn't air dodge savior

 

[thexsunrosered]

Usually you've gotta hyphen smash though o.o

 

[saviorslegacy]

what if the foe doesn't air dodge savior

They usually get ucustomed to what you put them through.
They will either air dodge or Nair/fast airial.

Usually you've gotta hyphen smash though o.o

This is also true.
If they attack usually their belly we be exposed rather soon.


If you play your cards right you should be able to USmash tipper them unless they jump.

 

[choknater]

savior, never think you can predict someone JUST BECAUSE you 'conditioned' them. You must always try to react to what they're doing rather than predicting. Prediction is rewarding, but almost always a gamble.

 

[Judo777]

Me think you are wrong.
Fair, Nair and Bair have the same trajectory at different percents.
Fair is the best because it is at KO percents but the other two work just as well.
Well, actually Nair #2 works at like 110/120 I believe.

D-tilt and u-tilt are not guaranteed.

If it's not going to kill them you shouldnt stale ur best kill move especially at higher percents.

 

[Zankoku]

They usually get ucustomed to what you put them through.
They will either air dodge or Nair/fast airial.

Or they will jump, B reversal, Up+B (if applicable), or glide (if applicable).

If you're only fishing for them going in one direction you'll never "condition" them to do anything. And if it's any sort of good player they'll realize that no matter how much you might predict their other stuff, air-dodging is still one of the worst options available in almost every situation.

 

[saviorslegacy]

savior, never think you can predict someone JUST BECAUSE you 'conditioned' them. You must always try to react to what they're doing rather than predicting. Prediction is rewarding, but almost always a gamble.

You have a choice.
You can stand there and wait for the air dodge. You don't have to jump into the fray.

The smartest thing we be to pull out your shield since you can be punished right at the time they can escape.
That way you will power shield anything. If they do air dodge then jump out of your shield.

If it's not going to kill them you shouldnt stale ur best kill move especially at higher percents.

You have 3 choices.

#1 Pray that you are able to land a USmash tipper at low percents.

#2 Use USmash as a combo tool at all percents for an easy 31%. When used in a combo the combo may only have 2, 3 or 4 moves in it, but it will still do around 50%.

#3 Use a little bit of each and use rapid jabs to refresh yourself.


I prefer #3.
Use normal f-tilt and such combo's at low percents while mixing in USmash.
If you were able to f-tilt lock a character for 40%ish then try to avoid using USmash.
If you miss the opportunity to kill with f-tilt> USmash (FU) then try to find other kill possibilities soon.
Like chasing with Nair or putting them onto a platform.
Now that they are at higher percents try to get them to the ledge and rapid jab. It will prefresh everything and should put them around 130%. Play smart with Needle's and Chain as usual.

After 90% you should always be watching out for DACUS tipper chances.
However, if they are at 130 or so Nair is your best kill option.
Attempt to either Nair them while they are over the ledge, Nair OoS or just run up to them and FH Nair.
At higher percents people will usually pull up their shields. If not hopefully Nair will clank.
Either way you can DI away. Also Needle's will help any attempt to punish.

Or they will jump, B reversal, Up+B (if applicable), or glide (if applicable).

If you're only fishing for them going in one direction you'll never "condition" them to do anything. And if it's any sort of good player they'll realize that no matter how much you might predict their other stuff, air-dodging is still one of the worst options available in almost every situation.

I just say play with your options and know every situational combo.

Very few things are legit, you have to take into consideration what they will do and what they have done.
Hopefull you will be able to react fast enough to do something w/o getting slapped.

 

[Zankoku]

You will never be able to punish everything on reaction. That's why prediction is prediction. Yes, predicting correctly will give you some amazing benefits. No, you will never be even close to 100% on your predictions against any competent player.

 

[Judo777]

You have a choice.
You can stand there and wait for the air dodge. You don't have to jump into the fray.

The smartest thing we be to pull out your shield since you can be punished right at the time they can escape.
That way you will power shield anything. If they do air dodge then jump out of your shield.

You have 3 choices.

#1 Pray that you are able to land a USmash tipper at low percents.

#2 Use USmash as a combo tool at all percents for an easy 31%. When used in a combo the combo may only have 2, 3 or 4 moves in it, but it will still do around 50%.

#3 Use a little bit of each and use rapid jabs to refresh yourself.


I prefer #3.
Use normal f-tilt and such combo's at low percents while mixing in USmash.
If you were able to f-tilt lock a character for 40%ish then try to avoid using USmash.
If you miss the opportunity to kill with f-tilt> USmash (FU) then try to find other kill possibilities soon.
Like chasing with Nair or putting them onto a platform.
Now that they are at higher percents try to get them to the ledge and rapid jab. It will prefresh everything and should put them around 130%. Play smart with Needle's and Chain as usual.

After 90% you should always be watching out for DACUS tipper chances.
However, if they are at 130 or so Nair is your best kill option.
Attempt to either Nair them while they are over the ledge, Nair OoS or just run up to them and FH Nair.
At higher percents people will usually pull up their shields. If not hopefully Nair will clank.
Either way you can DI away. Also Needle's will help any attempt to punish.

I just say play with your options and know every situational combo.

Very few things are legit, you have to take into consideration what they will do and what they have done.
Hopefull you will be able to react fast enough to do something w/o getting slapped.

I always say you should never use upsmash above 30% because you need upsmash to be unstale by 90% and needles are only one move that do almost 20% so u need 8 other moves to unstale them and at high levels of play rapid jabs is no longer safe especially against better characters. You really really do not want to miss your ftilt upsmash window cause its very small and if you miss ur chance u get to deal about 60 more dmg before you can kill them without gimping or doing a good bait into an upsmash. Ftilt to upsmash is a great tool you dont want to miss ur chance.

Also unless they are very close to the edge Nair shouldnt be killing at 130.

 

[saviorslegacy]

You will never be able to punish everything on reaction. That's why prediction is prediction. Yes, predicting correctly will give you some amazing benefits. No, you will never be even close to 100% on your predictions against any competent player.

I know, but I can do my best.

I always say you should never use upsmash above 30% because you need upsmash to be unstale by 90% and needles are only one move that do almost 20% so u need 8 other moves to unstale them and at high levels of play rapid jabs is no longer safe especially against better characters. You really really do not want to miss your ftilt upsmash window cause its very small and if you miss ur chance u get to deal about 60 more dmg before you can kill them without gimping or doing a good bait into an upsmash. Ftilt to upsmash is a great tool you dont want to miss ur chance.

Also unless they are very close to the edge Nair shouldnt be killing at 130.

Rapid jabs unstale USmash.
Also, rapid jabs are good what are you talking about?
They are fast, disjointed, low ending lag, send them almost no where and can be used to semi combo.

You are underestimating them.


BTW, look at the kill percents on Nair at the ledge.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248776
Near the center it may not kill most people at 130%, but they set themselves up for a gimp because they are so far out there.
A Fair, Nair, Bair, Needle, Chain or Vanish will do them in. You also have the option of edge hogging.

 

[<π]

rapid jabs =/= safe.

just jab short->jab short. orr pummel or something. ftilt. rapid jabs are rarely a better option espeacially agianst good characters.

 

[-Mars-]

I agree. Rapid jabs aren't useful for much of anything and are rarely safe.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Fine then.
If I get overly punished for using them then I'll stop.
Until then... I'll continue using them.

 

[<π]

good plan. discover stuff for yourself. if it works for you awesome but when it doesn't don't force it too.

 

[saviorslegacy]

when it doesn't don't force it too.

Then go with plan B.
Find a new rout to make USmash fresh.

 

[Bsrk_]

Or you could just learn to read your opponent and use what is available to you_ Usmash is sometimes all but too predictable_ Even by finding a way to freshen it quicker, your chances of landing it repeatedly may not be as great_

Rapid jabs is not a good option and usually means you overstepped 2 jabs>?_ Only rarely will this move prove useful such as locking your opponent on the edge for a setup_ Your options will always vary depending on your opponent and character choice_ On tougher opponents you will most often get punished for rapid jabbing_

 

[Zankoku]

I just played like two hours of Sheik vs Diddy

I think the matchup might be only 55-45 Diddy's favor... it's still annoying as **** though.

 

[thexsunrosered]

you guys know you can rapid jab lock against the outside of the tree on PS1? The person eventually goes into a bounce animation type thing and cant get out and have a forced get up when it changes back to the neutral stage. Just to let you know o.o

 

[rathy Aro]

badnewsbear is going to load the one match i saved of me vs razer from Phase 3 in dallas from a week ago soon. We didn't save the second which was way closer on FD, i'll probably ask for some input because there were a bunch of instances where i felt like i was hitting him but instead my hitbox just floated right through him. Bear says its probably because he buffers spot dodge, which is hard to beat =/

*waits...*

On another note, people who live close to NYC better be at poly brawl. I'll need to figure out my own way there.... I'll do it.... somehow. /ninja

 

[choknater]

i learned to ftilt fair ftilt fair rinse and repeat from armada

soooooooooooo good

 

[Dcold]

*waits...*

On another note, people who live close to NYC better be at poly brawl. I'll need to figure out my own way there.... I'll do it.... somehow. /ninja

I can't go D: That weekend is busy and very busy especially around that area [very shoppy]. I'll see the other NY Sheiks some other time [You know who you are ]

 

[-dMT-]

i learned to ftilt fair ftilt fair rinse and repeat from armada

soooooooooooo good

I think that was the first combo I ever did in Brawl. Was a Sheik main in Melee so I used Sheik when I got my hands on japanese brawl immediately. O man I remember doing the swan combo on Falcos back in those days when everyone was a newb except Lucario players lmao

 

[saviorslegacy]

I think that was the first combo I ever did in Brawl. Was a Sheik main in Melee so I used Sheik when I got my hands on japanese brawl immediately. O man I remember doing the swan combo on Falcos back in those days when everyone was a newb except Lucario players lmao

I was a Pit main for a while. So the first person I was, was Pit.
So my first combo was like Fair> AR.
I switched to Sheik about 1 year ago.

That is because all you need to be good with Lucario when everyone else are n00bs is Dair.

 

[choknater]

what is the swan combo again? is that ftilt footstool bair needles reset usmash?

 

[Zankoku]

No, that's innocentroad's footstool combo.

 

[iLight]

swan combo = f-tilt fair f-tilt fair (decayed f-tilt)

 

[saviorslegacy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn5tuTxpwIY = Swan Combo

But yeah, Unknown is right. It NEEDS to be decayed or you can't do it correctly.
Sheik can do some AMAZING things with decay. lol (Well, amazing compared to the rest of the cast.)

 

[choknater]

ohhh ok thanks guys

 

[<π]

um.............

swan is DI out able but do it when you can, really good damage.

fair/bair->full needle force get up->usmash

get on it NOW I'll risk decaying usmash for all that damage espeacially on like snake and d3 and crap. SO~ much damage off both hits of usmash.

 

[Judo777]

Then go with plan B.
Find a new rout to make USmash fresh.

That why i say dont use it above 30% because with needles storm doing 18% you dont have that many moves you can do within that small window from 30%-90% to unstale ur usmash especially if you plan on throwing needles. If throw one needle storm that lands then 42% to do 8 moves which is hard

 

[saviorslegacy]

um.............

swan is DI out able but do it when you can, really good damage.

fair/bair->full needle force get up->usmash

get on it NOW I'll risk decaying usmash for all that damage espeacially on like snake and d3 and crap. SO~ much damage off both hits of usmash.

Yes we know.

I HATE YOU <3!!!!!!!!!!
That was mine yo thief
I already have kill percents of some people. I stopped working on it but here's what I got.

Meta Knight

Strong Nair= 40%
Nair second stage= 110%
Sweet Spot Bair= 34%
Strong Bair= 50%
weak Bair= 94%
Fair=57%

Snake

Strong Nair= 50%
Nair second stage= 130%
Sweet Spot Bair= 42%
Strong Bair= 62%
weak Bair= 105%
Fair= 69%

Fair always puts them into KO percents for f-tilt> USmash.
However, I have learned how to make this a KO set up by using f-tilt. However, I am going to keep that to myself as well.
Yesterday I recorded around 3 hours of replays (I had a whole lot). Some of that is is where the Wii sat idle, but that is still a whole lot.
I have a few other combo's like this that I plan on putting in that video.

ps I set up a Reverse Chain Ground Lock the other day.... BUT FAILED to follow through!!!!!!

My 0 - death is a failure...... owell
If I play a match and tell the person to platform camp I should eventually get a set up.....

 

[-dMT-]

So... I'm seriously considering a MM against Ally tomorrow, at Poly Brawl.

vs Snake, any advice anyone can give me so i can look into it NOW!

 

[Dcold]

Try to get SV or FD as your starting stage, needle camp, don't try to juggle him because e will pull nades, stay away, if you win, ban halberd, if you lose cp RC gogogogogo

 

[<π]

You can DI and/or tech out of all that SL, and reverse chain lock isn't a true lock.

you can smash DI out really fast.

if the situation arises use it. but you can look at the percents and just expect it.

 

[stealth3654]

Definitely chose FD when you can. Easier to needle camp and juggle. If he tries pulling out a nade while you are juggling him, just grab him as he is landing and use up/back throw to get him back in the air (since they don't blow up nades). Rainbow Cruise is actually not a bad stage for Snake. The walls are smaller, making it easier for Snake to get an up tilt kill or a forward tilt kill. Also, Snake can just C4 himself if he needs help to recover.

One thing I found that is kinda funny is: If Snake needles to C4 himself when recovering and he is close to the stage, jump next to him so that the C4 sticks you you. Then jump back to the ledge. If you are not going to make it to the ledge before the C4 explodes, air dodge or use it to help you recover. If you are going to make it, use the invincibility frames to negate the C4 damage and knock back.