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A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

Kayzee

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The Filthy Monkey


Currently discussing matchup. Art is by lampii.


Bananas are serious business. Discuss.
That's going in my avatar for SURE! Lmfao I love this matchup thread.

Contributing to the topic, I'd say this match heavily favors Diddy Kong. I have trouble playing aggressively with some Bowsers because of Bowser's up B and in the case of Gen, I actually have to play very defensively and patiently, more so than usual. If Bowser gets a hold of Diddy's bananas, things get more difficult for Diddy.

Edit: If you have the choice, don't go to FD. (Duh)
 

Seagull Joe

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diddy owns bowser.matchup 35-65 diddy's favor.koopa hoppin can avoid banaas on ground but only if the diddy camps like an idiot.most will approach with glide tossed banana to a fair or dsmash.one of bowser's hardest matchups in my opinion.
 

MrEh

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MrEh, Still need your or Lord Bowser to link me those pics :p.
I'll get them to you by the end of today, If I remember...


Do you want a funny MK one? I just got a great idea. either that or D3, your choice.
Nah, I got enough pictures of them.


This matchup is pretty bad though. Bowser gets owned by bananas period. I do think he has an advantage of Norfair though, but that's only one stage...
 

B!squick

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Things don't necessarily get easier once get ahold of the 'naners as that just opens the door for UpB/Rocket Barrel Cancelling.

Diddy is like MK in alot of ways, wailling into you until they get the KO, though the flying has been replaced with those **** bananas. This match up seems to rely alot on stage choice, though the difference is akin the difference between dropping the soap in prison and telling your girlfriend you're willing to explore the different uses of cerntain "toys" as both have the possibility of a sore bottom and the same can said for stages.

I'd say a hopeful 35:65 in Diddy's favor
 

MrEh

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This looks pretty bad for Bowser actually.

Bananas suck, and on a minor note, it's hard to chaingrab with them littered around the stage. ><
 

B!squick

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You can always just Up Throw and work from there, right? Doesn't combo too well I think, but at least it should give you time to deal with the bananas. And whenever they try to throw out more that's usually a free hit at least.

And does anyone know of some good Bowser vs. Diddy vids I can look over? Everyone I've come across has Bowser winning except for one. >.> It seems to stem mostly from Diddy making a single mistake and Bowser capitalizing. Even in the vid where Bowser lost he had failed to take advantage of a mistake that would probably have given him the win. Perhaps we're over analyzing?
 

Nitrix

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The good news is that Diddy has a predictable recovery, so if you manage to get him off-stage, hes at your mercy.

Not really. Diddy has 2 ways of getting back to the stage, plus decent priority in the air and a spike.

You can always just Up Throw and work from there, right? Doesn't combo too well I think, but at least it should give you time to deal with the bananas. And whenever they try to throw out more that's usually a free hit at least.

Only stupid Diddys get punished when they bring bananas out.
 

MrEh

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Not really. Diddy has 2 ways of getting back to the stage, plus decent priority in the air and a spike.
That's' true. With good DI and his Monkey Flip, Diddy won't have to even use the Rockets to get back on the stage. He can just always aim for the upper corner of the stage, and just recover from there.

On the off chance that Diddy has to recover below the stage though, he can get gimped by fire, which is funny, but rare to happen.
 

Bowser King

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Not really. Diddy has 2 ways of getting back to the stage, plus decent priority in the air and a spike.
Even taking those things into account, bowser still has the advantage when diddy is at the bottom of the stage. Fire destroys diddy and Diddy's recovery is pretty predictable due to the charge.

Anyway, I think it's 65-35 Diddy

-:bowser:Bowser King
 

Liquid Gen

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After reviewing this thread, I've gotten a lot better in this matchup, mostly cause I took Ninjalink's advice on Diddy etc.

Take his banana's, he's dead basically. He cant really stop you of you catch them, cause you can still shield, to prevent a fair or dash attack.


But he still ***** you in the air, however, which is depressing.

But to win this matchup the least frustrating way, focus on his bananas and taking them, whether you even throw them at him or not. and if you throw them, keep them away; that's how you win.

But yeah, I'll bunk my ratio to 65-35 Diddy.
 

MrEh

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Yeah, 65-35 sounds like the majority opinion right now.

I guess we'll get into deeper discussion after we get all the matchup ratios. The Diddy boards are kind of quiet I guess. Oh well....
 

Liquid Gen

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On to Lucario, I guess.

Firstly, Lucario can own you with spam lest you powershield it, all the time.

However, if you're playing an actually good 'cario, it's not really all that hard.

His little shfair-nair combos don't work on you, if you shield. His no lag nair is useless because we have Up B. This is a nice little advantage we have.

His recovery is bad, meaning our raw power will send him pretty far preventing a recovery if we edgehog or what have you.

I believe we have fairly standard grab releases on Lucario, if I remember correctly. Thus that is good.

But, if Lucario gets and aerial on us it usually means about 2-3 more are coming, since they're so fast. IF you sense an aerial approach immediately shield and punish him with Up B

Like I said Lucario can just spam us to death, but if we're half competent that shouldn't happen.

We're a big target for 'cario, so it shouldn't be too hard for him to get in some hits. He can also chaingrab us for a little while, though it shouldn't be too bad.

In this matchup, play safe with Up B, grab releases, jab, ftilt (it out ranges his iirc) and all your safe moves. Don't run into his Fsmashs or Upsmashes, though it might be hard since they reach the whole stage.


I'm leaning for 50/50.
 

ADHD

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diddy has a 80-20 to 70-30 advantage against bowser. bowser just gets camped like hell and he cannot avoid the bananas, plus he is a massive target. The only way bowser can win this is if diddy underestimates bowser, and bowser nails multiple grabs consistently. the only thing bowser has against diddy is bowser lives to 150% each stock unless diddy gimps him. I know how good bowser can be, I'm not underestimating him. The general matchup is just... severely in diddy's favor. up b if diddy dash attacks your shield like a moron.
 

Nitros14

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diddy has a 80-20 to 70-30 advantage against bowser. bowser just gets camped like hell and he cannot avoid the bananas, plus he is a massive target. The only way bowser can win this is if diddy underestimates bowser, and bowser nails multiple grabs consistently. the only thing bowser has against diddy is bowser lives to 150% each stock unless diddy gimps him. I know how good bowser can be, I'm not underestimating him. The general matchup is just... severely in diddy's favor. up b if diddy dash attacks your shield like a moron.
80-20 is how badly Dedede destroys Bowser. Diddy does not destroy Bowser like Dedede.
 

Liquid Gen

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Plus, you can catch bananas in the air, so bananas aren't as bad for Bowser as everyone thinks. I used to think that, then I started playing smart and I won.

So no, it is definitley not 80-20.
 

NinjaLink

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its not that bad trust me. Think of it like this. Diddy vs D3. Diddy has to put in alot of work for damage. Takes forever to kill. Bowser just cant CG.....unless he does the grab release one. 65-35.
 

Count

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65-35 is accurate. If diddy is smart, yes he owns bowser, but a few mistakes bowser punishing diddy can lead to a quick death for diddy, whereas bowser tends to live forever.
 

ADHD

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its not that bad trust me. Think of it like this. Diddy vs D3. Diddy has to put in alot of work for damage. Takes forever to kill. Bowser just cant CG.....unless he does the grab release one. 65-35.
Think of all the work bowser has to put in though too, i guess 65-35 is perfect then. I exaggerate... everything.
 

LinIsKorean

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I'd agree with 65:35. Although it's true that Bowser can navigate over bananas that are on the floor by Koopahopping, any Diddy that knows what they're doing can pick one up and throw it at him anyways.
 

ADHD

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I'd agree with 65:35. Although it's true that Bowser can navigate over bananas that are on the floor by Koopahopping, any Diddy that knows what they're doing can pick one up and throw it at him anyways.
Spamming peanuts charged/uncharged prevents koopa hopping over bananas. Diddy has absolutely no need to approach here.
 

B!squick

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Lucario boards came up with 60:40.

I would say you really dont need to be able to worry about the firebreath edgeguarding too much, it should be possible to curve under the flame and sweetspot the edge without getting hit. The only time the flame really helps is when you take a more direct approach to getting back on the stage.

I am assuming though that his firebreath and Charizards are similar (I like to mess around with Charizard).


Also on this matchup, I would expect stages like Delfino Plaza and Halberd would work very nicely for Lucario, they give you a chance to approach Bowser from below where he really is not at all prepared to defend.


Actually, take him to Norfair. Being able to snap to all those ledges is very nice to make approaching him from below extremely safe.
Wait, it get's better.

In my experience, Norfair is scary for bowser. Use it!
Of course, when told Bowser+Norfair=win...

I guess my mindgames give a multiplier bonus to my lucario on Norfair then, cuz he always falls sucker to the lava, and I can camp him so well there.
But MrEh set them straight. Also, here's what I found actually enlightening:

Lucario's ground game is outclassed by Bowser's ground game, so Lucario is at a disadvantage on the ground once he can't spam Aura Sphere. Lucario's air game is much better than Bowser's, but this isn't much of a problem since Bowser's ground game is better than Lucario's aerial game, so Lucario must be careful. Lucario's approach options are mostly limited to aerials and grabbing since Bowser's Ftilt will out prioritize and out range virtually everything that Lucario has other than Fsmash and Aura Sphere. Bowser can get around Aura Sphere by shield dashing/walking and Infinite Jumping with his Side B.

Lucario has a chain grab on Bowser at low percents, but with proper DI Bowser should be able to escape before 30%, which is not as bad for Bowser as it is for other characters thanks to his heavy weight.
With good DI, Lucario should live to ~120% and Bowser should live to ~160%. Bowser also has a ground release chain grab on Lucario that lasts until Lucario jump breaks or Bowser stops grabbing. Ground releases also lead into inescapable Dtilt that kill ~100% on the ledge of most stages or Side B which is ~19% in addition to whatever pummel damage was accumulated.

Bowser gimps Lucario better than Lucario gimps Bowser. Bowser's Neutral B can gimp or rack up quite a bit of damage [if Lucario tries to DI through it] should Bowser come from below the stage or use his aerials if Lucario comes from the side: His Nair has a long lasting hit box that will hit Lucario if he tries to Up B through it and his multi hit Dair (it's ~11 hits total, I believe) is also long lasting and has a downward trajectory for the last hit. Bowser doesn't have a good answer to Lucario that is recovering high above the stage other than attempting a Uair which, can kill Lucario at ~70%.

Lucario can hit Bowser with Aura Spheres and aerials if Bowser comes in high or from the side, but Lucario doesn't have a real option against Bowser's recovery below the stage other than ledge hogging. Note: Bowser can use his Down B to quickly reach the ledge from above the stage. This can be beat out by properly spaced aerials and Aura Sphere, but it's fast, deals ~20% should you trade hits or miss the timing, and is very safe since it ledge cancels.

Bowser's out of shield options are terrific and can punish virtually anything that Lucario has. If inputted correctly, Up B out of shield has no vulnerable frames before the high priority hit box comes out (it clanks with Snake's Ftilt) Bowser can while using Up B once the hit box comes out, and he can use this to punish spot dodges, rolls, and resetting his position. Neutral B fires flames that are similar to Charizards, but they are wider and hence edge guard Extreme Speed better than Charizard's Neutral B. It is a good idea to DI away and, if the Bowser unwisely keeps up the flame (most good Bowsers will stop their flame once you DI to the end of their range), use Double Team.

Side B is a good move that deals good damage (~19%), can be used to Bowsercide, kills at high percents, and can be used with the Infinite Second Jump Recovery to constantly have a second jump while on stage without needing to land. Note: Bowser can kill with a Bowsercide and survive it on some map transitions such as the Help Ghost on Yoshi's Island or the transitions to a stage with water on Delfino. Down B has two hits when grounded: The rising hit which deals little damage, has almost no knock back growth, and leads into the aerial hit. The aerial Down B is the same as the second hit of the Down B. It deals good damage (20%) and the grounded Down B is one of Bowser's best kill moves and will kill ~80%. The grounded Down B can be air dodged if hit by the rising hit.

Even though most of his moves are kill moves, some Bowser's save their Dtilts as kill moves since it can easily be performed out of a ground release and has a gimpy trajectory that will hurt Lucario on maps that have sides large enough to allow horizontal gimping (if Bowser hits you with a Dtilt at the ledge at ~60%+, landing a Fair will put Lucario too far out to recover). Utilt has very high priority and range and kills about as well as Snake's as Utilt; don't underestimate it and be careful if approaching Bowser from behind, as the hit box covers above and behind him for a ~120 degree angle. Bowser's first jab hit combos into the second hit and both hits deal ~5% for ~10% total. The jab starts fast, and while the range is shorter than his Ftilt, it still rivals many other characters' Ftilts.

Fsmash is easy to avoid but shouldn't be underestimated, as it can definitely be landed. The Fsmash is made of 2 hits: When Bowser begins to move forward (his abdomen area is the hit box) and his head once he begins to slam forward. The head is the main concern for knock back and the tip of the attack (his horns) is a sour spot that has smaller, completely vertical knock back as opposed to the normally diagonal knock back. Usmash hits twice: Upward and then downward. The Usmash kills better than Utilt when sweet spotted, but on the ground Utilt is the bigger killer and doesn't need to be directly under Lucario. The sweet spot is the center spike on Bowser's back at the apex of his jump during the attack. Dsmash is the smash attack that can be expected, as it can punish spot dodges and rolls as well as incorrect recoveries. Dsmash can be DId out of depending on when and where in the Dsmash you were drawn in. The final of the seven hits hold the knock back. All three smashes kill at mid to high percents even with good DI: Fsmash kills at ~80%, sweet spotted Usmash kills at ~100%, and a full Dsmash (all 7 hits) kills at ~110%.

Bowser's aerials are telegraphed, but don't make the mistake that they are easily avoided because of it. Bowser can bait air dodges just like everyone else. Fair is a good move for gimping off stage due to being one of his faster aerials with decent forward range with decent damage. Bair also does decent damage with decent range and is also a kill move. Bair will outright kill at ~90% off the ledge, so be careful when he is jumping backward to you. Uair is a spectacular kill move that will kill Lucario virtually anywhere on most stages from ~80%+. Dair will not be seen very often and can be DId out of. Don't take it lightly, though; it deals 20%+ damage if you don't DI it and has a deceptive landing hit that knocks Lucario far enough back at all percents to make it safe. It also is for shield damage and should be watched out for after a shielded Fsmash. Nair has a long lasting hit box that is Bowser's body during the attack. It doesn't deal as much damage or knock back as his Fair and Bair, but it still works as a good edge guarding aerial.

Lucario does not want to take Bowser to Norfair as the only character that Bowser shouldn't take there is Meta Knight, as that is one Meta Knight's best stages. A good stage against Bowser would be Jungle Japes. The ceiling helps Lucario survive and the terrain is much better for Lucario than it is for Bowser, although it doesn't allow for as much Aura Sphere spamming. A good neutral map is Yoshi's island since Bowser can't gimp you very well thanks to the large area for wall clinging. Dream Cruise is also a good idea since it will keep Bowser in the air with Lucario, although Lucario doesn't really have good options of Aura Sphere. Make sure to ban Corneria, as the survivability should have Lucario living to ~90% and Bowser to ~140% and Bowser's Uair kills at early to mid percents (50%+) which is viable against Lucario when he above Bowser, particularly at the fin.

In my opinion the Bowser-Lucario match up is 40-60 in Lucario's favor.
Personally, having looked through the topic, I wanna say 55:45 simply for peice of mind.
 

B!squick

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Yeah, for Bowser vs Lucario. We unofficially started on Lucario the previous page. Sorry if you thought I was refering to something else. ^.^;

Also, you have the best sig ever. That was beastly match with M2K.
 

MrEh

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You guys can talk about both Lucario and Diddy right now really.

We haven't really started on Lucario though, not until Mmac gives me a chart update. So talk away, no matter. I think we've all agreed on a 65-35 anyway.
 

MrEh

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Since Mmac is having internet troubles and can't update the chart until he fixes it, we mind as well just start on Lucario. (we were doing that anyway)

Lucario



I can't say an more then what I already said in the Lucario boards a few months ago. (I still think it's 45-55 though, not 40-60)
 

Milln

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I'm here for one reason: I demand(read: Request) that a we get a better Lucario picture than the one that has been procured under the pretense that it is old, boring, and overused.
 

phi1ny3

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I second that notion, and u used my quotes out of context a bit, lol.

Curse you, spin doctors!

On FP chain, yes, you can wiggle out of it, but it's crazy pushing, plus lucarios have known this for some time, so we usually only do 1 or 2, then follow up with fair chains or ftilt, sometimes into another FP grab even.

And now I've seen what happens when you don't get lucky with Norfair, the only advantage is camping on this, otherwise, Bowser's stage control is very good on this (he hogs up the platforms, you know?).

Oh, and on bowser uair? Yes, at first it really started to hurt me, but once I got used to seeing its clues of starting, it hardly ever connected.
 

itsthebigfoot

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you can wiggle out kinda easily >.> just mash like you should be

lucario gets ***** on ground release, but bowser can't do anything on air release, so if your timing is go it's a definite plus
 

phi1ny3

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you can wiggle out kinda easily >.> just mash like you should be

lucario gets ***** on ground release, but bowser can't do anything on air release, so if your timing is go it's a definite plus
Like I said though, a smart Lucario will do one, maybe two, before switching it up with ftilt, fair, or dash grab, and then they can reset to FP again as long as you are in the 40% range and they didn't use an attack that knocked you too far.

And FP isn't that bad of a grab, it does good damage at high percents (14 per grab), sets up nicely into fair, ftilt, dash grab, and possibly dash -> jab (which also sets up nicely). Plus, it extends lucario's mediocre horizontal grab range by about double the range (even though we found out that lucario has good vertical grabbing properties, which explains why dash grab is a viable solution out of FP grab).
 

Samuelson

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This matchup is more even then people probably think. Bowser is big, heavy and can kill early if you get hit by something stupid. He can break a lot of our combo's with Up B OoS. His Dtilt kills about as early as Wolf's Dsmash IIRC. Plus if you don't jump break then Bowser will own you. Dair is not that safe in this matchup since he can Up B OoS. Lucario's saving grace in this match is that he can camp Bowser like crazy and AS pretty much ***** Bowser since he's such a huge target and is kind of slow...

If you play super gay then this match up is probably 60:40 in Lucario's favor but if you're like me and like to play aggressive then it might be 50:50 or 55:45 in Bowsers favor.
 

phi1ny3

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This matchup is more even then people probably think. Bowser is big, heavy and can kill early if you get hit by something stupid. He can break a lot of our combo's with Up B OoS. His Dtilt kills about as early as Wolf's Dsmash IIRC. Plus if you don't jump break then Bowser will own you. Dair is not that safe in this matchup since he can Up B OoS. Lucario's saving grace in this match is that he can camp Bowser like crazy and AS pretty much ***** Bowser since he's such a huge target and is kind of slow...

If you play super gay then this match up is probably 60:40 in Lucario's favor but if you're like me and like to play aggressive then it might be 50:50 or 55:45 in Bowsers favor.
Actually, in my experience, if you space dair right, whirling fortress doesn't hit you much. Also, you don't want to telegraph dair or get too close with dair. A useful tilt I've found for lucario against bowser is ftilt.
 

Blistering Speed

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True but a mis spaced FP is a fortress to the face after shielding the hitbox, punishable afterlag.

I think Hixxy covered the matchup very well on his own, albeit with bias on the matchup number. I'd say this could be neutral, at worst 55:45 Lucario.
 
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