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A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

Bowser King

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After reading what others say and through personal experience I'm inclined to say it's 50:50.

This match-up can go either 45:55 or 55:45 depending on the way the opponent plays. If bowser plays the way he usually does against character with projectiles, it can go 5:50.

I'll elaborate later....


-:bowser:Bowser King
 

phi1ny3

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True but a mis spaced FP is a fortress to the face after shielding the hitbox, punishable afterlag.

I think Hixxy covered the matchup very well on his own, albeit with bias on the matchup number. I'd say this could be neutral, at worst 55:45 Lucario.
Yes, but unless you're using FP out of jab, FP is only going to be used when your opponent uses his shield too much.
Also there were some inaccuracies in the summation (although it was pretty good). About aerial options offstage, usually are difficult to pull off against a lucario who actually uses fair and BAS/AS to fight off edgeguard/edgehog attempts. utilt in my experience for bowser is not nearly as good of an option as upB, it just seems too slow. Lucario's ftilt, utilt, and dair seem to be overlooked, as lucario's dair will stop usmash even after dair has been shielded (dair comes out faster), ftilt for lucario is actually pretty good against bowser, as it has great range (almost as much as fsmash), double hit, and I've seen it do some decent stuff against shield oriented strategy overall. Bowsers forget about lucario's utilt, this is like the new lucario chain, as at lower percents it chains rediculously well (about 30-40, give or take aerials afterwards), and just know that lucario has to stay semi defensive, (sort of balanced according to my playstyle thread), until he spots a weakness. Then, an offensive mindset is a must to keep damage and pressure, with the crazy fair chains that start off with grab, AAA, sometimes FP, or ftilt, then fairs and following with nair or dair usually. Another thing, AS/BAS is more than a spammy projectile/killer. Its slow moving property makes it a good control projectile, meaning that whether they shield or eat it doesn't matter much, it allows lucario to approach with the projectile while the character deals with getting closer to the "spamming" character, essentially, it provides cover fire as well as damage. I'd say 60:40 at worst, but it's certainly not neutral to me, still very close though. I settle for 60:40 lucario's favor, or 55:45 at most (and trust that I know what I'm talking about, I play against a really good Bowser. Shoutout to Kevvviiinnn!)
 

itsthebigfoot

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Yes, but unless you're using FP out of jab, FP is only going to be used when your opponent uses his shield too much.
Also there were some inaccuracies in the summation (although it was pretty good). About aerial options offstage, usually are difficult to pull off against a lucario who actually uses fair and BAS/AS to fight off edgeguard/edgehog attempts. utilt in my experience for bowser is not nearly as good of an option as upB, it just seems too slow. Lucario's ftilt, utilt, and dair seem to be overlooked, as lucario's dair will stop usmash even after dair has been shielded (dair comes out faster), ftilt for lucario is actually pretty good against bowser, as it has great range (almost as much as fsmash), double hit, and I've seen it do some decent stuff against shield oriented strategy overall. Bowsers forget about lucario's utilt, this is like the new lucario chain, as at lower percents it chains rediculously well (about 30-40, give or take aerials afterwards), and just know that lucario has to stay semi defensive, (sort of balanced according to my playstyle thread), until he spots a weakness. Then, an offensive mindset is a must to keep damage and pressure, with the crazy fair chains that start off with grab, AAA, sometimes FP, or ftilt, then fairs and following with nair or dair usually. Another thing, AS/BAS is more than a spammy projectile/killer. Its slow moving property makes it a good control projectile, meaning that whether they shield or eat it doesn't matter much, it allows lucario to approach with the projectile while the character deals with getting closer to the "spamming" character, essentially, it provides cover fire as well as damage. I'd say 60:40 at worst, but it's certainly not neutral to me, still very close though. I settle for 60:40 lucario's favor, or 55:45 at most (and trust that I know what I'm talking about, I play against a really good Bowser. Shoutout to Kevvviiinnn!)

utilt chains will do maybe 20 with good DI

bowser can tilt the projectiles and keep going, camping with them actually limits lucarios stage control, because he is stuck near the ledge while bowser controls the center.

and I've never heard of kevin, unless you are talking about kevin m, but i think he doesn't play bowser any more.

if he was good I'd probably have heard of him, especially if he was west coast.

I play against a decent lucario (not amazing, places usually 17th/13th out of 100 or so out here, on par with socal randoms**********.) from time to time with bowser and it seems decently even, lucario has to get inside bowsers spacing and combo to be effective, but bowser does outrange him, and kos quite earlier/lives a lot longer

********** socal randoms are different than most randoms, in that some of them would be ranked anywhere else. we have 4 classes of random, 1st are actual randoms who suck and are ignored, 2nd come the 33rd-25th randoms, still not notable, but they're good enough to get top 12 in most regions, other than cali/nv and parts of atlantic north, these guys are about as good as the guys who get 7th/5th/occasionally4th/3rd in some of the easier states, they're decent but they usually have a big flaw like playing a really bad character (oats >.>) or lack of matchup knowledge vs a popular character. 3rd come the 17th-13th randoms (the lucario player's in this group) they occasionally upset top players out here, to put it in perspective, the best OR/CO/AZ player would probably fall into this grouping, i know this because those players place around 17th when they come out here (25th for the REALLY big ones). and finally, the "rotate onto the power ranking" randoms, these players will eat you, they aren't ranked simply because they're too many of them to be ranked, occasionally they will take a set on dsf, or win a major tournament (looking at you hall and larry), these are scary as hell. they would be in the top 8 anywhere else

the lucario falls into the 3rd grouping, still decent, not "good" yet since good has a shot at top 3 for a major regional.

so where would you place this "kevvviiinnn"

also, all you outsiders now know how ridiculously tough the brackets are out here. our randoms will eat you. If you don't believe me come out here and see for yourself, or ask someone who has.
 

Hixxy

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My match up ratio could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I did a decent job of covering the match up. I just put the number up to complete the post lol. My numbers were biased; I have experience against a really gay Lucario, and I got my number from how I usually fare against them (I'm not a good Bowser).
 

phi1ny3

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utilt chains will do maybe 20 with good DI

bowser can tilt the projectiles and keep going, camping with them actually limits lucarios stage control, because he is stuck near the ledge while bowser controls the center.

and I've never heard of kevin, unless you are talking about kevin m, but i think he doesn't play bowser any more.

if he was good I'd probably have heard of him, especially if he was west coast.

I play against a decent lucario (not amazing, places usually 17th/13th out of 100 or so out here, on par with socal randoms**********.) from time to time with bowser and it seems decently even, lucario has to get inside bowsers spacing and combo to be effective, but bowser does outrange him, and kos quite earlier/lives a lot longer

********** socal randoms are different than most randoms, in that some of them would be ranked anywhere else. we have 4 classes of random, 1st are actual randoms who suck and are ignored, 2nd come the 33rd-25th randoms, still not notable, but they're good enough to get top 12 in most regions, other than cali/nv and parts of atlantic north, these guys are about as good as the guys who get 7th/5th/occasionally4th/3rd in some of the easier states, they're decent but they usually have a big flaw like playing a really bad character (oats >.>) or lack of matchup knowledge vs a popular character. 3rd come the 17th-13th randoms (the lucario player's in this group) they occasionally upset top players out here, to put it in perspective, the best OR/CO/AZ player would probably fall into this grouping, i know this because those players place around 17th when they come out here (25th for the REALLY big ones). and finally, the "rotate onto the power ranking" randoms, these players will eat you, they aren't ranked simply because they're too many of them to be ranked, occasionally they will take a set on dsf, or win a major tournament (looking at you hall and larry), these are scary as hell. they would be in the top 8 anywhere else

the lucario falls into the 3rd grouping, still decent, not "good" yet since good has a shot at top 3 for a major regional.

so where would you place this "kevvviiinnn"

also, all you outsiders now know how ridiculously tough the brackets are out here. our randoms will eat you. If you don't believe me come out here and see for yourself, or ask someone who has.
1: I either didn't word it right, or it wasn't received right, because what I said is that lucario is not always going to sit away and camp with BAS spam. AS is used to get the opponent to respond to it instead of the lucario, limiting certain options. Like I said, it isn't to control stage (lucario is not very good at that), it controls character response. AS is slow enough to use it in conjunction with an approach option, like what M2 does in Melee to used uncharged Shadow Ball -> wavedash -> dtilt/ JCG to make approaching easier.
2: Utilt has followups, hence why I said give or take an aerial.
3: I don't have vids, but Kevin is on par with the Smash Twins and sometimes Eggz/Jem (who are good WA players), and according to the randoms rankings, I'm not one to speak for someone else, but he would probably fall into 3rd category. I wouldn't be the one to rank his performance though. The reason why he isn't heard of much is because he doesn't go to tourneys often.
4: Which lucario? I'm curious. :)
 

B!squick

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It's obvious it should be stickied. We're up to Char 10 and the current sticky is, what, Week 3 or something like that?

I'm sure if the mods don't give the Bowser board much thought, sadly. :/
 

lanky_gunner

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I think it should be a sticky when you provide the information for each match-up on the first post. I would like to know WHY Metaknight is what it is compared to say...Wario, or Snake, or whoever, like I've seen with most match-up threads.

WIth Lucario, I've never found it too hard with any character I use. Most Lucario players I've played against have heavy use of his B, aerials to space me off, and the Dair whenever they are too high to do anything.

I've found with Bowser, the best way to play a Lucario is as basic as dodging and shielding. Then go in with Fair's, Bair's, something like that. Lucario's air game is pretty decent, but if you can predict what Lucario is doing, you can easily outdo him in the air.
 

Hobobloke

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JayDeth we don't get any mods so they don't notice, but if its in the title when they come to close a thread or something they might sticky it.

colbusman dont rush MrEh on the summarys he'll get to them. If you really want to know look through the thread, we discussed MK first.
 

phi1ny3

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I have 2 decent funny pics of lucario's matchup picture for right now:

this one is by San Renard I think.

and this one is by Sage Lee
 

lanky_gunner

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colbusman dont rush MrEh on the summarys he'll get to them. If you really want to know look through the thread, we discussed MK first.
I'm not saying he should get it done NOW, I'm saying it'll look more formal and professional if there was one. I've seen the other sticky, and that one doesn't even have short descriptions either. All the more to actually set it up as soon as we can. What some of us could do is send our own summaries reading through these posts to MrEh so he can get them up quicker. I've seen threads do this before. But the problem we have facing us is getting it stickied.

If I was a mod here though, I'd have this stickied in an instant.
 

phi1ny3

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I'll concede to 55:45 Lucario's favor, I just find that Lucario's options seem less inhibited to Bowser's, despite Bowser having solid kill moves and good pressure game (especially on platforms). I also think Lucario does better on certain CP stages than the other way, but I'll agree that the matchup is enough based on who has better skill more than character design.
 

Milln

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you forgot to mention that lucario gets gimped. seriously, i lost count of how many times run off fairs have gotten me 60% ko's on lucario
I was gonna wait until we officially got a new picture, but statements like the above irk me.

Play Lucarios that use their brain when they ExtremeSpeed.
Also how can you have lost count, but still come up with an accurate percentage?
 

MrEh

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Not a lot of discussion going on, but that's to be expected. It's Bowser after all. :p

So what odds are we agreeing on? 45-55? Remember, it's up to you guys, not me.
 

Milln

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due to how easy Lucario is to gimp once hes off the stage :p.
..... You are ignorant and either don't play Lucarios that know how to recover properly, or have never played a Lucario player at all and don't understand the character.
 

Blistering Speed

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Agreed, Lucario isn't nearly 'Easy to gimp'. I would say it's a possibility however, but not something to be relied upon in the matchup. Trust me I've tried, run off F Air doesn't work against a smart Lucario, his options are great.
 

MrEh

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I'm just going to go with the middleground and call it a 45-55, Lucario's advantage. We need to move on, probably to Olimar.

Chart updates might take awhile, since Mmac is experiencing computer troubles.
 

Maniclysane

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Lol I think the matchup it 65:35 Olimar. He ***** hard.

He can pivot grab you all day, and since Bowser is big and heavy we can easily dthrow-fair all day, along with blue bthrow to edgehog. We can spike you out of your upb, which helps a lot. nair is great because Bowser is so huge. Our fair is useless, though, lol. Bowsers fair out spaces ours so hard.

What can Bowser do out of a grab release on Olimar?
 

Maniclysane

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Klaw hopping > Pivot grab? **** that's big. Sorry about the fortress comment, I thought it worked the same was as Donkey Kong's upb.

I'm pretty sure Olimar's uair, usmash and nair will **** you hard if you Klaw hop too much. Just choose Olimar in training mode and see how huge his hitboxes are.

Oh lol I just realized fortress beats out Pikmin camping. 40:60 sounds about right. xD
 

Jim Morrison

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****ing Olimar. N-airing Olimar is winning Olimar :(. Most Olimars don't use N-air nearly enough. Olimar can camp all day, and red pikmin are not affected by fire. Grabbing also sucks. At lower than 10% it's U-throw > U-smash > U-air which does a nice 35% or something like that. With Pikmin latched on, Fortress. SH F-air can not hit him, so I don't really see how approaching trough air would be any help, except for not getting grabbed. It seems approaching Olimar is the toughest thing to do. Or just stay out of his grab range and shoot fire :p
 

Maniclysane

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****ing Olimar. N-airing Olimar is winning Olimar :(
Psst. Nair's hitbox is the same as his hurtbox. If you keep your spacing you can outrange it with almost any move.


Anyway I don't know if this is a matchup that's easier on paper, or is harder on paper. It's starting to confuse me. If any Bowsers play wifi I would be glad to play them. I'm pretty rusty though @_@
 

Jim Morrison

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N-air still is Olimars most annoying aerial to me, basicly because it knocks up, in the air, where you DONT want to be, and it's annoying to be hit multiple times :/. Perhaps you could SDI out, but I'm unsure. N-air isn't used much anyway, it's just more of a personal hatred against N-air.
 
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