A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[Bowser King]

That's not even close to the angle of approach...

Exactly.

We don't klaw hop right on top of you.

-Bowser King

 

[asob4]

olimar camps from mid-range, not long range
jab -> grab range is where we camp, not across FD

if not usmash, then we can upB the claw
and running usmash is obsolete apparently?

 

[Maniclysane]

You don't know what your talking about, at all.

Lol, Skank has his **** down. Don't tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Bowser doesn't have enough answers for Olimars moves for this to really be Even. I'd say its 35:65 Olimar, because we have answers to whatever you throw at us.

Bowser Klaw hop's to avoid pivot grab: We usmash
Bowser does fortress to kill our pikim: We keep throwing them
Bowser tries to kill us: We WAC

Theres not much Bowser can do against a competent Olimar.

 

[MrEh]

if not usmash, then we can upB the claw

Possibility.

and running usmash is obsolete apparently?

Will you be doing this while we're infinite jumping everywhere?

Bowser Klaw hop's to avoid pivot grab: We usmash
Bowser tries to kill us: We WAC

Klaw beats Usmash and obviously beats the WAC.

 

[asob4]

we actually spam usmash like no tomorrow :3

 

[Flayl]

olimar camps from mid-range, not long range
jab -> grab range is where we camp, not across FD

if not usmash, then we can upB the claw
and running usmash is obsolete apparently?

Now you're contradicting yourself. Saying "we out-range and camp you" and then saying you only camp inside grab range is ridiculous. Either you're way underestimating bowser's range (which you probably are) or think Olimar's grab range is half the length of FD...

You can UpB if you're not in lag, that's correct. It'll be the Bowser's job to predict if he should airdodge into a jab or fortress or use the klaw.

You do realize running usmash moves your character, not just the smash, right? If Bowser's coming in the right angle, you'll get caught either way.

 

[DanGR]

Guys, guys, guys. Just wait 'til someone can post some vids with a good Bowser playing with a good Olimar. Hypothetical arguments don't get you anywhere. Besides, it's just a couple numbers. We know Olimar has a solid advantage. that's what's important.

"Well, if you do this, I'll do that."
"We counter that with this though."
"But you forgot about this!"
"That won't help you against this..."
=Pointless

Anyone play any good players that use the other character? I've never fought a good bowser.

 

[asob4]

you're underestimating olimar's range apparently

no matter what you may think, you're not going to out range olimar, especially his grab or fsmash

SH upB auto cancels into anything

you do realize that oli has a tiny hurtbox, and gets a decent slide from his running usmash?
utilt also beats that angle of approach

<333 dan, i'm gettin worked up over nothin

 

[Flayl]

Guys, guys, guys. Just wait 'til someone can post some vids with a good Bowser playing with a good Olimar. Hypothetical arguments don't get you anywhere. Besides, it's just a couple numbers. We know Olimar has a solid advantage. that's what's important.

"Well, if you do this, I'll do that."
"We counter that with this though."
"But you forgot about this!"
"That won't help you against this..."
=Pointless

Then why come here and say you have an advantage with no proof at all? I think Olimar has the advantage (not as much as some of you would like to believe), but stifling discussion after you already said "we own bowser" is hypocritical.

 

[MrEh]

"Well, if you do this, I'll do that."
"We counter that with this though."
"But you forgot about this!"
"That won't help you against this..."
=Pointless

Theorycraft is so fun to watch, but it's so useless to discuss.

It's definately clear that Olimar has an advantage, 40-60 minimum. The real question is if he does any better then that. It might be 35-65, but not lower IMO.


As for that Olimar/Bowser video I posted before, that was clearly a joke, but that guy in the video actually has a good Olimar. That was the first fight that he ever had to fight a Bowser, so had no idea how to fight him. There are no recent videos of me and him playing though...

Then why come here and say you have an advantage with no proof at all? I think Olimar has the advantage (not as much as some of you would like to believe), but stifling discussion after you already said "we own bowser" is hypocritical.

Easy there. Let's be civil...

utilt also beats that angle of approach

Klaw.

 

[Flayl]

Utilt? Utilt doesn't even come close. Seriously what the ****...

 

[asob4]

utilt beats peach's, fox's, and wario's dair, you honestly think it won't work?

 

[MrEh]

utilt beats peach's, fox's, and wario's dair, you honestly think it won't work?

Peach's, Fox's and Wario's Dair is not the same thing as the Klaw.

 

[asob4]

you're klaw hopping to an attack no? or are you just jumping around for no reason at all?

 

[Flayl]

you're klaw hopping to an attack no? or are you just jumping around for no reason at all?

I'll bite: The klaw itself is an attack.

 

[MrEh]

you're klaw hopping to an attack no? or are you just jumping around for no reason at all?

When you use the Klaw to hop around, you don't use the Klaw at the top of your jump. You use it right before you hit the ground. It can easily grab Olimar's Utilt.

More theorycraft... ><

 

[Flayl]

When you use the Klaw to hop around, you don't use the Klaw at the top of your jump. You use it right before you hit the ground. It can easily grab Olimar's Utilt.

More theorycraft... ><

To clarify, it works in a wide angle, the most advantageous one being 45º, normally. That's why UpB is a good countermeasure but Utilt and USmash aren't.

 

[asob4]

I'll bite: The klaw itself is an attack.

hehe
10 chars

i'm done theory crafting for one day

 

[Flayl]

I have a picture request for Peach: See if there's a deviantart of Peach imitating this

 

[MrEh]

I have a picture request for Peach: See if there's a deviantart of Peach imitating this

No More Heroes.

I can try.

 

[DanGR]

Then why come here and say you have an advantage with no proof at all? I think Olimar has the advantage (not as much as some of you would like to believe), but stifling discussion after you already said "we own bowser" is hypocritical.

I thought it was quite obvious that Olimar has a sizable advantage.

I posted what I just did because it's clear that both sides disagree and the discussion is now devolving into both sides bringing up hypothetical situations. That's pointless discussion. It doesn't lead anywhere. >_>

Can we agree on the facts? I'll bring up some points.

1.) Olimar forces bowser to approach through pikmin spam.

-While it doesn't reach very far when standing, shorthopped pikmin throws do reach far enough to pressure Bowser into either hitting the pikmin off or approaching Olimar.
-Bowser doesn't have any attacks than can be used to kill pikmin WHILE being safe from Olimar's shieldgrabs, fsmashes, and grabs.
-I don't know the specifics, but I'm pretty sure than Bowser's jab will not knock off pikmin that are on his head. When pikmin are shorthopped, they will land on his head most of the time.
-Combine the pressure of latched pikmin and purple pikmin (knockback), and Bowser has to approach. He can't sit back and kill pikmin efficiently.

2.) Olimar outranges Bowser.

-Fsmashes, grabs, and pivotgrabs outrange all Bowser's ground attacks.
-He can get by the grabs through klaw jumping, but that doesn't stop fsmashes. He can get over them, but it's unrealistic to say that he'll jump over every single fsmash.
-Regardless of how predictable it is, is does help Bowser mobility wise.

Can we agree?

Edit: btw, I'm theory crafting. I have seen several Bowser videos of the best bowsers, so I'm at least aware of what he's capable of.

 

[Hobobloke]

Wow theres been so much drama over the Olimar discussion I'd say its either 65-35 or 60-40 in Olimars favour, no more no less.

 

[B!squick]

I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkICH94s0Ho

*shrug*

 

[Bowser King]

1.) Olimar forces bowser to approach through pikmin spam.

Agreed.

-While it doesn't reach very far when standing, shorthopped pikmin throws do reach far enough to pressure Bowser into either hitting the pikmin off or approaching Olimar.
-Bowser doesn't have any attacks than can be used to kill pikmin WHILE being safe from Olimar's shieldgrabs, fsmashes, and grabs.

lolwut?
If your camping range=your grab range then your camping is going to get blown out of the water. Olimars grab range is big but not THAT big. You'd get destroyed if you camped that close. If you moved further with your camping (which would be a smart choice) you contradict your 2nd statement on how you'd fsmash us. You don't have the time to fsmash us. We don't stand there after hitting your pikmin and go

"Hey look olimars running at us, let's keep swipin these pikmin!!!"

Anyway, I think this discribes the current discussion really well=

-Bowser King

 

[Flayl]

I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkICH94s0Ho

*shrug*

This video is a pretty good demonstration of how Bowser should play. I know both parties involved made mistakes, so do we all, but Bowser's game plan is there. You'll notice how he stays away from Olimar's dash grab range, and jumps when he goes on the offensive, using either a klaw or an airdodge to a fortress, mixing in the occasional firebreath.

On a side note Pirate ship is really gay.

 

[Maniclysane]

Agreed.
lolwut?
If your camping range=your grab range then your camping is going to get blown out of the water. Olimars grab range is big but not THAT big. You'd get destroyed if you camped that close. -Bowser King

The point isn't how our grab range is huge, but it's big, long, and it's fast. If we miss with our grab, we can just lead into anything else. It's hard to avoid.
Sorry if I mangled up your font and color while cutting down your quote. :X

 

[asob4]

i did some testing earlier and it seems bowser has no real answer to latched pikmin
i tried everything and the best was nair

 

[Flayl]

... Jab or fortress, it's really not that hard.

 

[DanGR]

lolwut?
If your camping range=your grab range then your camping is going to get blown out of the water. Olimars grab range is big but not THAT big. You'd get destroyed if you camped that close. If you moved further with your camping (which would be a smart choice) you contradict your 2nd statement on how you'd fsmash us. You don't have the time to fsmash us. We don't stand there after hitting your pikmin and go

"Hey look olimars running at us, let's keep swipin these pikmin!!!"

Anyway, I think this discribes the current discussion really well=

-Bowser King

Olimar's camp range should be about a white grab and a half away. It's enough of a distance for Olimar to be able to space a pivotgrab or fsmash when the Olimar player sees the Bowser begin to approach. At the same time, it's a short enough distance for Olimar to punish anything other than jabs with a quick grab or a pikmin pluck canceled fsmash or DPCed fsmash if the attack used to kill the pikmin has about as much lag as an uptilt or maybe ftilt.

Jabs can't deal with all pikmin though. There are multiple latch spots on Bowser. If the pikmin are latched to Bowser's head (which will happen often because it's more efficient to short hop throw), you'll likely have to uptilt or upair if you want to knock them off. You knock them off, we punish. You don't knock them off, you get eaten up. This forces Bowser to try and approach. Also, you've got to factor in the purples as a threat. They apply good pressure as well.

In short, jabs can deal with some pikmin, but not all of them. Bowser can't sit back and kill pikmin like some characters can. He's a big target without a whole lot of mobility and quick pikmin killing attacks. He's forced to approach.

 

[MrEh]

I'm seriously loving this thread now. ^^

If you guys want to know, I think it's 40-60. So in short, decent advantage to Olimar.

 

[asob4]

... Jab or fortress, it's really not that hard.

what do you think i tried most -_-
i did several latch areas and jab/upB failed A LOT

 

[TKD]

7 to 3 Olimar =)

 

[Hixxy]

we actually spam usmash like no tomorrow :3

Bowser's Fair, Bair, Dair, and Nair go through Usmash. Utilt out prioritizes them, however. Fair, Bair, and Side B are aerials that out range both Usmash and Utilt. The only time that it's imperative to knock off latched Pikmin is if there are several latched on and/or if there is a white Pikmin. The low percent combo that Olimar with a latched white Pikmin puts Bowser in killing percents.

I would also like to add that Olimar both out camps and out ranges Bowser (Olimar's grab is roughly equal to Bowser's Ftilt, and I'm not sure about Olimar's Fsmash). From my small experience with the match up, Bowser has to get inside and then keep up pressure; if Olimar has a decent amount of stage control, Bowser is in a bad position. Olimar is one of Bowser's worst match ups in my opinion.

 

[asob4]

TKD called it <333


if you think gettin the latches off doesn't matter, then you'll be at 150 before you realize it, white or not

 

[Hixxy]

TKD called it <333


if you think gettin the latches off doesn't matter, then you'll be at 150 before you realize it, white or not

If that's directed to me, I consider imperative to be worth taking an attack for.

 

[asob4]

the whole point of olimar is to not let your opponent gef close

we're not going to stand there throwing pikmin as you come to us
toss is lagless and leads to everything
so take the latch damage, but don't expect a free hit

 

[B!squick]

Does DownB out prioritize Olimar's options? It'd be fun to try to mind game that. xD Esspecially if you can set it up just right to cancel it.

 

[Hylian]

Enjoy your sticky.

 

[Hobobloke]

Thankyou oh great one for bestowing us with stickys, now just sticky my Q&A one

I'd also like to thank you MrEh for inspiring me to watch Italian Spiderman.

 

[Hixxy]

the whole point of olimar is to not let your opponent gef close

we're not going to stand there throwing pikmin as you come to us
toss is lagless and leads to everything
so take the latch damage, but don't expect a free hit

You misunderstood me again. I was saying that it's in Bowser's favor to take a Fsmash/grab/etc. in order to remove a white Pikmin or several colored Pikmin. That might not be true at 0% with Olimar's (Dthrow>Fsmash>Dthrow>Fsmash>Dthrow>Usmash?) combo, though.