Legend of Zelda A Debate to the Past

[Ganonsburg]

Maybe you should say which pages it was debated on? That might be helpful.

EDIT: Maybe link to them in addition to saying it. So like, "Pages '1' to '8'", with the 'x' being a link and without '.

 

[shadowboii]

Upon the discussion about the inconsistency of the temple of time on the first page, my theory is this:

Since the temple of time is a sacred realm that is unaffected by time, the geographic location of master sword remains constant despite the shifts in geography due to the change in time.

The fun thing is, if this theory is true, the geographic theory behind Zelda needs to be changed. The maps within different games should not be based around Hyrule, but the location of the master sword.

 

[theunabletable]

Nothing has ever said that the ToT is a sacred realm that's unaffected by time...

Hell TP makes it clear that the ToT HAS been affected over time...

 

[Spire]

Nothing has ever said that the ToT is a sacred realm that's unaffected by time...

Hell TP makes it clear that the ToT HAS been affected over time...

The inside of it is different though. How does Link (TP), simply travel through time just by entering the doors to the temple? He does not have the Ocarina, so.. it seems as if the inside of the Temple is justified to a certain time period, perhaps that of Ocarina of Time? Given that when Link enters the ToT the Master Sword is not in its pedestal, it could signify that the time period that he has entered is during the 7-year lapse after Link pulled the Master Sword in OoT, because when else was the Master Sword not in its pedestal within the Temple?

This is bound to get at least one of you to say, "well Link (TP) pulled the Master Sword from its pedestal in the Sacred Grove, that's why it's not in the Temple of Time after he enters it," but remember, upon entering it, he is transported in time to the past, so drawing the Master Sword in the present should not effect the sword's status within the Temple. It would be totally conflicting if he took the Master Sword into the Temple of Time only to discover another Master Sword already in the pedestal. The Master Sword would have to have been sealed within the Sacred Realm along with the Hero of Time in order to make room for The Twilight Link to venture into the temple.

 

[shadowboii]

Nothing has ever said that the ToT is a sacred realm that's unaffected by time...

Hell TP makes it clear that the ToT HAS been affected over time...

Sorry, let me clarify. What I meant is that the master sword has the ability to repel the effects of time. ToT is only a shrine that the people built over the master sword to protect and honor the artifact.

As time goes on, the location of master sword changes. The people of Hyrule then builds new temples to honor the legendary artifact.

This can be seen in WW, where time began to flow after Link pulls out the master sword.

 

[theunabletable]

^Ohh that's what you meant...

Well I agree

 

[zaneebaslave]

I think we should start with a new "Debate to the Past" now. Hopefully with something that doesnt make me hate TP any more than I already do.

 

[Spire]

I think we should start with a new "Debate to the Past" now. Hopefully with something that doesnt make me hate TP any more than I already do.

I asked for ideas, but got none. I considered posting the end-all, be-all debate, but I'll save that for later. Since it's been a subject of much discussion lately, how about... *goes to edit OP*

The second debate is up!

(sorry Zaneeba)

 

[MattV1]

The Twili are the Twili, nothing more, nothing less. A combination of Hylians/Humans that were sent to the Arbiter's Grounds, banished to the Twilight Realm, and over years of breeding eventually became one common group of people. Living under the Twilight turned them into the Twili. Some maintained innate magical powers (possibly inherited from their ancestors, likely Hylians) and took up rulership, wtih special powers given (or possible, innate) to the ruler.

No Gerudo, no Zuna, Sheikah, or anything like that. The Twili are the Twili.

 

[zaneebaslave]

humans? There arent any humans in Zelda.

I feel that there is probably a lot of Sheikah in the Twili. The red eyes, the "eye" shapes on their architecture and clothes, and their supreme knowledge of magic and magical artifacts. The Twili are not "Just" the Twili, because that would be contradicting to the story in Twilight princess.

I mean, we all know that the Sheikah had a checkered past, riddled with torture and magical malpractice. Shadow and Twilight seemed to go hand-in-hand with the Sheikah throughout their lifetimes. Thats how I see it anyways.

 

[MattV1]

How do you know that the Sheikah had such a history? Torture? Magical malpractice? I don't remember hearing anything about that in Ocarina. So you're either playing a totally different game or referring to the manga, which, last time I checked, wasn't canon. Yes, there are torture devices in the Shadow Temple, but who's to say it was the Sheikah who used them?

And there are humans in Zelda. Here's a protip: Hylians have pointed ears. If they don't have pointed ears, that's a human. TWW is full of humans, as are the older games. The Twili are a result of humans/Hylians being sent to the Twilight Realm. There's no dark secret, no strange backstory connecting one of the "missing" races. The Twili are the Twili, nothing else.

 

[zaneebaslave]

Gerudos are apparently human. Honestly, no. There are no humans in Zelda. A sheikah man lived where the well is in Kakariko village, in which case it was the same man who made the Lens of Truth. In the well, beneath where his house used to be, is a treasure trove of torture devices and death. And there, among the torture chambers and the death is his magic treasure, the Lens of Truth. Not only that, but the gate shutting the Shadow Temple has a Sheikah symbol on it. Why would a place so chock full of evil have a symbol of the sheikah on it? Hylians are not known to use magic. Probably the most used magic for a Hylian is in potions and "fortunetelling." It is the Gerudos and Sheikah who are more well endowed with magic. Did you forget the story of Tp and the backstory of the Twili? The Dark interlopers build a magical item to try to break into the Sacred Realm. When it fails, they are sent to the Twilight Realm. It's not magical hylians or magical (lol) humans. It is someone who knows how to use magic, and how to use magic well. And that easily points to the Sheikah.

 

[Spire]

There are humans in Zelda, which is why Link is so profound as a Hylian in OoT.

But Matt, the Twili were distinctly said to descend from the "Dark Interlopers", members of an ancient tribe. The Hylians and humans are still flourishing in TP, so they aren't an ancient tribe. Who's missing from TP? Sheikah and Gerudo. The only (and only potential) Sheikah and Gerudo in TP are Impaz, Madame Fanadi, Ganondorf, and Telma. As seen in The Hidden Village, the Sheikah have practically died out. The Gerudo on the other hand seem to have integrated into Hylian culture, with Telma being the prime example.

So what tribe do the Dark Interlopers come from? We have seen dark magic practiced by both the Gerudo and Sheikah in the past, as the former have deliberately performed it (Koume, Kotake, Ganondorf), and the latter worship shadows. Considering the Sheikah as the candidates for the Twili, let's look at the evidence:
- the tribe worships shadow
- the Sheikah eye symbol is found on both the Fused Shadow and the throne of the Twilight Palace
- seeing as how much 'fate' plays into the Zeldaverse, it makes sense that a tribe who worships shadow would be expelled into a world of shadow to BECOME shadow
- the tale of the Dark Interlopers seeking the Triforce in an age when no one else knew of the Triforce but the Hylians; wouldn't it make sense that the Sheikah, the guardians of the Hylian and the Triforce, might seek it out?

Now let's look at Gerudo evidence:
- Zant's robe has the Gerudo symbol

That's it. Now let's look at Hylian evidence:
- o_o uhhh...

It was not an entire tribe that was banished, rather a few members, and if the hallucination/story that Lanayru told us is true, then it was four members, as we saw the three Dark Link clones of Link. Now let's jump to Four Swords Adventures. There was a mirror (the same that appeared in ALttP) that transports one to the Dark World, and in FSA, created four Dark Links. This mirror seems conceptually synonymous with the Mirror of Twilight, thus further supporting that there were four Dark Interlopers.

 

[MattV1]

The Mirror creates far more than four Shadow Links, as seen in the final fight with them on the Dark Cloud in which they will spawn forever. I think people take Lanayru's vision too literally. It shows three Dark Links, and even still, three people are not nearly enough to support and develop into an entire race of people. What's stopping the Dark Tribe from having been an offshoot of Hylians or humans that were banished from the main society?

As for Zant wearing the Gerudo symbol, so do Onox and Veran, and neither of them appear to be Gerudo at all (Hell, Veran resembles a Twili, and we never do see much of Onox). Perhaps the presence of the symobol on their armor represents their allegiance to Twinrova, much how Zant's could represent his alliegence to Ganon.

We know that the Sheikah had pretty much died out by the time of Ocarina, so saying they're gone save for Impaz in TP is pretty irrelevant (I could argue that Renado is a Sheikah, but he lacks red eyes I believe). There's Fanadi, so a few remaining Sheikah may be in hiding, but still not enough. It's implied in Ocarina many of the Sheikah died in the Civil War prior to King of Hyrule united all the races, and Impaz even says that the Sheikah died out over time due to "prolonged wars."

Barring Ganondorf and his surrogate mothers, none of the Gerudo were shown to have had any magical prowess. The source of Ganondorf's power stems from being, well Ganondorf, and the other two are witches, pretty self-explanatory. How then, would a race of people with not innate magical abilities become the Dark Interlopers, nevermind create the Fused Shadow? Ganon also refers to the ancient Twili magic as "weak", and even calls the Twili themselves weak. Why would he speak of his own people that way, and surely Ganon of all people would know if the Twili were once Gerudo (a race of all female that can't even procreate without Hylian men).

It just seems to me, there's a lot of evidence against the Gerudo just by looking at the facts.

-Gerudo have no innate magical abilities.
-Why would Ganondorf refer to his own people and magic as weak?
-How could a race of all-females procreate within the confines of the Twilight Realm without any men? (It's directly stated in Ocarina that they have guards as boyfriends).

There is more evidence for the Sheikah, this is true, however I just doubt that the race of people sworn and dedicated to protecting and serving the Royal Family would have tried to claim the Triforce for their own. The Eye Symbol appears literally everywhere, on walls, signs, statues, clothes, items, weapons, even the broken ship that makes up Ganon's lair in the Forsaken Fortress. Eyes are common elements in the Zelda series: the Sheikah symbol, Agahnim wears an eye symbol, Veran wears an eye symbol, and Vaati's symbol is an eye (fitting, considering his Wind God form).

As for the mirror thing, well not only are the Dark Mirror and Mirror of Twilight two very different objects (Hell, the former is a pocket mirror), but they also have two very different functions. The Mirror of Twilight is a portal between Hyrule and the Twilight Realm. The Dark Mirror leads to the Dark World, an almost "pocket dimension" existing within Hyrule itself, and can be used to create dark clones of people. Of course I'm getting off topic with this, so I digress...



There is evidence for the Sheikah to be the Twili, I won't doubt that, and I won't support it either. Hylians CAN use magic, this is even stated in A Link to the Past, "Hylians are born with magic-infused blood, giving them psychic powers." Link himself is living testament that Hylians can use magic, considering his powers were innate in A Link to the Past, as well as Wind Waker, where the magic meter fills after getting the first magical item. Considering we see the presence of both Gerudo and Sheikah symbols, it's safe for me to just assume Nintendo likes reusing those designs. Or, as I said in my original post, the Twili are a combined race of the Dark Interlopers and other dangerous crimminals that were sentenced to the Twilight Realm. This could include Hylians, normal humans, Gerudo, and Sheikah. Generations and generations of living under the twilight and in-breeding led to the creation of a new, twisted-looking race. The Twili.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Hm. I think the point about the Gerudo is rather valid. How does a group of female-only-save-for-one-guy 's suddenly create a culture with (we're assuming; we don't know how many guys or girls there are, but considering Midna probably had a father and that Zant is a guy...) multiple guys? Or how does it even keep going? Though, we forgot to mention that the Twili share the Gerudo's orange hair.

The Gerudo are dependent on other races for their survival. But eventually their blood will get diluted enough that they aren't a separate tribe, barring magic or divine intervention. I think the reason why the Gerudo aren't in TP is because they simply had to move in with the Hylians because there was little to distinguish the Gerudos from the Hylians (and humans). So it looks like the Gerudo were on a timer of sorts, only destined to go so long before fading away. Why would the goddesses banish a group that was going to fail anyway? I'll come back to this in a minute.

I think the Sheikah explanation is very likely. However, why would a group of people so disciplined and devoted to the Royal Family suddenly have a desire to rise up against Hyrule? Yes, there are individuals who have their own ideas, but how could the others who are so devoted to the Royal Family allow the individuals to get under the radar? Maybe it was just a mistake, maybe it wasn't. This is point 2.

Thirdly, the Twili show some characteristics of other magic-heavy tribes. The magic-heavy tribes share characteristics between themselves, such as symbols, magic, hidden ( yet broken and tormented) pasts. I think they (the magic-heavy tribes) all came from a mother tribe, the tribe the Dark Interlopers came from. I'm going to steal the "Zelda's Babel" idea for a second....

Okay, perhaps there was, originally, one tribe of magic. More powerful than the Sheikah, Gerudo, and Twili (and whatever other tribes we've seen that may be candidates). They know they're powerful. They're not as unified as the smaller tribes, however. They all have a darker nature about them (in mentality, or skin, or both). Some delve into darker magic, others use their magic intuition to hurt others and steal from them. Some use their powers to help people, even though they can't fully cover up their dark nature. They are left unwatched by the goddesses, spirits, and neighboring tribes. They learn the secrets of the land and become extremely powerful.

Now, a few individuals who had been looking into the darker magic decide that they want even more power, so they look for the ultimate power, the Triforce. These individuals gather some people from their smaller tribe and seek it out. They build themselves a weapon to strengthen their magic and help them look for the Triforce. Story of the DI.

The goddesses see this and realize that this one tribe is too powerful together. So they split the tribe up, roughly according to the smaller factions the tribe had already developed. The goddesses also tweaked the tribe some in terms of physical, mental, and magical capabilities so that even the new tribes couldn't rebuild themselves completely. The darker tribe was sent to the Twilight Realm, and the Twili were formed. The Thieves were sent to the desert to become physically darker and isolated, so that they couldn't steal from others so easily. They were also given a self-termination mechanism: Only one guy every 100 years. They became the Gerudo. The nicer group was probably altered the least, but were given an ugly temple filled with evil to remind them of their scarred past and banished cousins. Behold the Sheikah.

Each group took the customs of the mother tribe, and each focused a bit more on different customs. We see that each of the tribes we know have similar qualities, but nothing very concrete.

Also, it may be that the Ikana were also a tribe from the Mother tribe, who were banished to Termina. However, it may be that the goddesses did not tamper with the Ikana too much because the goddesses did not like Termina (Termina had forsaken their goddesses). The Ikana prospered for a time and did their own deeds in Termina, even constructing their own weapons for a possible re-attempt at the Triforce (giant's mask, Majora's Mask possibly, the Stone Tower). After a time they were destroyed, possibly because the goddesses realized that their dislike for Termina was not worth having a bunch of magical beings running around destroying everything.

The Zuna also built great magical weapons. However, I haven't played FSA, so I can't comment too much on them. They may have been another faction.

This can also tie into Ganon's jab at the Twili. As sister tribes, the Gerudo and Twili (at least, those who remember the split) probably feel hostile towards each other. Namely, the Gerudo are probably more hateful and the Twili more submissive. So Ganon was simply talking down in the hateful-competitive way his tribe raised him to be.

This still doesn't explain where the Sheikah went (maybe they too had a self-termination mechanism), nor why the sages would send Ganon into the Twilight Realm (maybe they had hoped the Twili would recognize a Gerudo and destroy him themselves due to a want of revenge). There's probably a ton of holes in this, but it's an idea that popped into my head that I wanted to share.

 

[MattV1]

Very interesting Zelda Babel theory. Really liked it up to the Ikana bits.

The Zuna, from FSA, aren't very humanoid at all. They have green skin, don't look like traditional humans, and seem to have a strong life of isolate, living so far out in the Desert of Doubt. Plus, it's never said in FSA that they created the Trident of Power, they just build the Pyramid around it to protect it.

Going back to the fall of the Sheikah, as I said and as Impaz says, I would imagine they just died out due to wars and the like. By the time Ocarina rolls around there are few left, and Sheik dubbing herself, ":survivor of the Sheikah" seems to imply there isn't much left of the group. You have Impa(z), the stray person here or there (Fanadi) but overall the race is pretty much doomed due to living in such low numbers.


"Dark Tribe" is used a lot in Zelda. A "Dark Tribe" created Majora's Mask. A "Dark Tribe" was banished into the Dark World that exists beyond the Mirror of Darkness. The Interlopers come from a "Dark Tribe." Dark Tribe could easily just be a phrase used to encompass any group of people that go against the will of the Goddesses, hence why the Sheikah are never called a "Dark Tribe." It's a matter of perspective. It's possible, although unlikley in my mind, that the same "Dark Tribe" mentioned in all those stories is the same, but I think if that were Nintendo's intention they would have mentioned a name for them by now, or made it clear it's supposed to be one group.



As for Ganon being sent into the Twilight Realm, it's possible the Sages never even quite understood what the Twilight Relam was. Perhaps they didn't understand that all the past criminals that had been sent away had survived over the years. Whatever the case may be, they did it out of desperation. They couldn't kill Ganondorf after the divine prank and sending him to the Twilight Realm was the safest option. Plus, I don't think they ever anticipated somebody would be able to escape once sentenced there.

 

[Phantom7]

I think the Twili could be both the Gerudo and the Sheikah. Zant wears the Gerudo emblem on his cloak, which leads me to believe that Zant, Midna, and the similar-looking Twili evolved from the Gerudo. The Sheikah may have evolved into the Shadow Beasts, but then again, I may be speculating a bit too much.

It could also be solely Gerudos, since the Sheikah disappeared before OoT, while the Gerudo were present in Hyrule. It is likely that the Sheikah were either destroyed or banished in some other manner. However, the Fused Shadow is extremely similar to the Majora's Mask, which is theoretically parallel to some Sheikah hex...

It could also be theorized that the Sheikah were somehow banished to the Twilight Realm before OoT occurred. Or it could just be some tribe we don't know about, but I doubt that...

I'm actually beginning to think that the Twilight Realm is parallel to the Sacred Realm, but like an opposite dimension, much like Heaven and Hell, or even similar to Hyrule and Termina.

 

[Ganonsburg]

I'm pretty sure the Shadow Beasts are just Twili transformed by Zant. I recall Midna saying that when you first encounter a Twili in the Twilight Realm.

 

[Spire]

I'd firstly like to say: bravo to you guys. Posts very, very well written. I've some oppositional thoughts on the matter myself..

The Fused Shadow was not a weapon created and used by the Dark Interlopers, rather a congealed product of the Goddesses sealing the dark magic after banishing them to the Twilight Realm; it was created as a by-product. Immediately afterwards, it was split into four pieces to be hidden in: the forest, Death Mountain, Lake Hylia, and the Twilight Realm. Why hide one piece in the Twilight Realm? Because if all four could be located in Hyrule, then the Fused Shadow could be reforged and used once again against the Royal Family in another attempt to steal the Triforce. By isolating one piece in the disparate Twilight Realm, thy effectively prevented this threat from ever arising until Ganondorf was banished there and hence, provided Zant the power to invade Hyrule with Twilight.

On the note of the Gerudo: I hardly, if at all support them being the Dark Interlopers. I was simply stating that it's a common belief that they may have had some sort of involvement, and was furthermore pointing out symbolic references. However, the presence of snakes lining the platform that the throne in the Twilight Palace sits upon and on the front of the Fused Shadow may suggest a connection to the Gerudo, since they have an affinity for snakes given the appearance of the Goddess of Sand.

Seeing as how the Fused Shadow was split into four pieces, is comprised of four "horns", and Lanayru's tale depicts four Dark Interlopers, it certainly seems like there were only four of them. Now interestingly enough, Termina is based on four, and as a land that opposes Hyrule in just about every regard, particularly the Stone Tower Temple and its phallic and sexually offensive architecture towards the Triforce, and the temple's involvement and coherence with Majora's Mask, a lot of pieces seem to line up here...

Let's consider this.. Majora's Mask is said to have been found by an ancient tribe and used for its dark magic and hexes for evil purposes. Within the context of MM (at the time of its release), it was natural to assume that the ancient tribe were the fabled Ikana people. The story/game progresses in a particular fashion: we experience the Humans/Hylians, the Deku, the Gorons, the Zora, the Gerudo, and then... the absence of a race. Just like in OoT, we experienced the Kokiri, the Deku, the Humans/Hylians, the Gorons, the Zora, the Gerudo, and then the all-but-Impa, missing Sheikah.

The Sheikah and the Ikana seem to be counterparts. Both lived in canyons, both had villages with a music box-related house connected to the water supply, both had wells, both had graveyards, and both were connected to the dead. It's no doubt that they are geographical and cultural counterparts. And even more so, both the Sheikah and the Ikana are missing ca. OoT/MM save one or two people. The Ikana may definitely have built Stone Tower Temple.

______________________________

So imagine this scenario: four Ikana discover Majora's Mask and take it to Hyrule. Using its power, they try to take the Triforce, but the Goddesses and the Light Spirits intervene and seal the power used by Majora's Mask into the Fused Shadow. The four Ikana are banished to the Twilight Realm, the Fused Shadow split in four, and Majora's Mask sent back to Termina to protect Hyrule. The four Dark Interlopers evolve and develop through many generations into the Twili race. The Ikana in Termina find out about the failure of their brethren to steal the Triforce and in spite of the three Goddesses of Hyrule and the Triforce itself, built a blasphemous monumental temple (as seen in the depictions of the Triforce within it).

Though, the legend of Majora's Mask is passed on through people of Hyrule. Many, many years later, the Happy Mask Salesman hears of it, and as a mask collector, decides to seek it out. He travels to the fabled Termina (surely if the Terminans know of Hyrule ever-so-slightly, so too might some Hyruleans) in search of the mask. Eventually he finds it, and as he's returning to Hyrule, is intercepted by Skull Kid, Tatl, and Tael, who steals the mask and uses it for mischief. And so spell the events of Majora's Mask. Link eventually defeats the Mask itself, bringing an end to its existence, though remnants of it remain in Hyrule. A century or so later, a new Link is born into the legend of Twilight Princess. His job is to bring together Majora's Mask's remnants (The Fused Shadow) to defeat Ganondorf, but as proven in the past, the Triforce overpowers Majora's Mask, hence, why Ganondorf is able to simply crush the Fused Shadow. Ganondorf effectively erases Majora's remaining power from existence, but is ultimately overpowered himself by the other two pieces of the Triforce.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

I belive that the shadow temple maybe the main hub to the twilight relm, and bongo bongo is somewhat guarding the gate way. Much like serberus guarding hell. I loved that old thread about bongo bongo, awsome read

BTW, isnt it wierd how there is four pices to collect of the fused shadow? I seem to remember every other zelda game ( appart from MM) you collect three things. So isnt it interesting TP being the near sequel (or closest) to MM? So this brings me back once again to the theory of because link changed termina`s future, It also either (belive either I dont care) 1. it changed the past aswell hence hyrule is changed. Or 2. changed because they are parallel so theefor they MUST have a simaler outcome.

 

[Ganonsburg]

My bad about the Fused Shadow being a weapon. We could just say that because the Fused Shadows sealed the Interloper's power, the Ikana made Majora's Mask with a similar design as a reference to the power and as a way of saying "We hope to one day be as powerful as we once were."

 

[Spire]

My bad about the Fused Shadow being a weapon. We could just say that because the Fused Shadows sealed the Interloper's power, the Ikana made Majora's Mask with a similar design as a reference to the power and as a way of saying "We hope to one day be as powerful as we once were."

Hehe, well it has never been stated that anyone made Majora's Mask either. As seen with the end of the game, after Majora's Wrath is vanquished, the mask remains, revealing that the entity Majora within is separate from the Mask itself. The mask held the phantom Majora who corrupts and controls any who wear the mask; kind of like a parasite of such (which can closely be compared to Phantom Bellum).

The tale of Majora's Mask states (taken from Zelda Wiki):

The salesman explains that the mask is an ancient artifact that was used by an ancient tribe for its bewitching rituals, but the mask's wicked power became so great that it was sealed away to prevent a great catastrophe. However, since the ancient tribe vanished, no one accurately knows the true nature of its power. The salesman fears of the great devastation that could befall Termina if the mask is not taken back from the Skull Kid.

As pointed out before, Impaz says that the Sheikah died out from constant warring, not from banishment to the Twilight Realm. We know that the Ikana 'disappeared' (or died out) as evidenced from Majora's Mask, but how? It's interesting how similar the architecture of the Twilight Realm is to Stone Tower Temple: a focus on stacked blocks and vertical alignment. Both the ancestors of the Twili and the Ikana are said to have disappeared centuries before OoT/MM, perhaps even at the same time. Since speculation of the Sheikah is highly supported in regards to the ancestors of the Twili, perhaps it is even wiser to look for the Sheikah's Terminan counterparts, especially given their past. The counterparts in Termina often lead opposite roles to those of Hyrule, so if the Sheikah of Hyrule protected the Triforce, then perhaps the Ikana of Termina sought after the Triforce, invading Hyrule to do so. Using Majora's Mask, they ought to have the power to claim the gold, but they failed, and so Majora's Mask was cast back into Termina. The Ikana recognized that it had controlled their people to attack Hyrule to steal the Triforce but failed, and as a subsequence, these very members of the Ikana tribe were banished forever to the Twilight Realm. The remaining Ikana shunned the Goddesses and the Triforce for this action and built the Stone Tower Temple out of blaspheme, only to recognize that Majora's Mask was the true culprit, so they disposed of it.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Oy, I really need to refresh my Zelda knowledge. It doesn't help that I've only played roughly 1/2 of the games. I'm in the middle of MM, just about to beat the Great Bay Temple, so hopefully I'll get a bit more insight in the next few days on Majora's Mask.

I think it would help if we had a general idea of when what happened, because right now I'm not sure when some events happened in relation to others. Such as which happened first, MM's creation/conception or the Stone Tower's? When did certain groups of people die out? Things like that. I think agreeing on things like that would help give us an idea of not only who these people were, but their motive (if they had another motivation in relation to events from other games). Or maybe there is a general timeline to these things and I just need to get to the next temple already...

EDIT: I also wanted to clarify that I didn't say that the Sheikah were banished to the Twilight Realm. It seemed that you may have been directing that toward me, although that may have just been because you were addressing me in the paragraph prior. But it's still a good point, and I like how you drew the comparison of Sheikah duties:Ikana possible attempts::Hyrule:Termina. It's much simpler than my idea, and simplicity is often closer to the truth.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

As pointed out before, Impaz says that the Sheikah died out from constant warring, not from banishment to the Twilight Realm. We know that the Ikana 'disappeared' (or died out) as evidenced from Majora's Mask, but how? It's interesting how similar the architecture of the Twilight Realm is to Stone Tower Temple: a focus on stacked blocks and vertical alignment. Both the ancestors of the Twili and the Ikana are said to have disappeared centuries before OoT/MM, perhaps even at the same time. Since speculation of the Sheikah is highly supported in regards to the ancestors of the Twili, perhaps it is even wiser to look for the Sheikah's Terminan counterparts, especially given their past. The counterparts in Termina often lead opposite roles to those of Hyrule, so if the Sheikah of Hyrule protected the Triforce, then perhaps the Ikana of Termina sought after the Triforce, invading Hyrule to do so. Using Majora's Mask, they ought to have the power to claim the gold, but they failed, and so Majora's Mask was cast back into Termina. The Ikana recognized that it had controlled their people to attack Hyrule to steal the Triforce but failed, and as a subsequence, these very members of the Ikana tribe were banished forever to the Twilight Realm. The remaining Ikana shunned the Goddesses and the Triforce for this action and built the Stone Tower Temple out of blaspheme, only to recognize that Majora's Mask was the true culprit, so they disposed of it.

Is it not possible it was the ikana were the ones the shiekah were waring with? Is not also said that, twili are a race of hylians that have used magic for there own greed/desire?

 

[Spire]

Is it not possible it was the ikana were the ones the shiekah were waring with? Is not also said that, twili are a race of hylians that have used magic for there own greed/desire?

Yeah, this is entirely possible. The thought kind of crossed my mind while writing that, but I completely forgot to include it. Good job man

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

Yeah, this is entirely possible. The thought kind of crossed my mind while writing that, but I completely forgot to include it. Good job man

Thank you

I have noticed some wierd things in the windwaker game that look like thay should have no reason to be there like this

I think this was on ganondorfs door, wich means...... Well I dont exactly know, so I was wondering if anyone else knew?onfused . There is also a shiekah symbol on the back of zelda's robe in TP

BTW If the twili are what the game said they arw, how could they be shiekah? It states that they are HYLIANS , not shiekah, so isnt that a big hole in our logic xD

 

[zaneebaslave]

Well, the sheikah symbol on the back of Zelda's robe was a shout-out to Sheik from OoT. It was said that Sheik was actually going to be in TP, but was later taken out. Sheik from SSBB was created to look like how Sheik was supposed to look like in TP (At least, thats what i heard. Shut me up if I'm wrong)

But as for that symbol over Ganondorf's door (I assume thats a picture from the Forsaken Fortress) I dont know. It's an interesting find, to say the least.

 

[MattV1]

Like I said, I think Nintendo just likes reusing the cool designs they come up with. Just slap the Sheikah symbol all over the place, same for the Gerudo. Why not, right? >_>

 

[zaneebaslave]

It's like the gerudo symbol that shows up on the blicks in every temple:

(Symbol from OoT version 1.0)

As goron's sole trade is the bombflowers, Gerudo's trade is in large stone blocks. They might have a block factory somewhere around here somewhere.

 

[Spire]

BTW If the twili are what the game said they arw, how could they be shiekah? It states that they are HYLIANS , not shiekah, so isnt that a big hole in our logic xD

What states that? Nothing states that.

Well, the sheikah symbol on the back of Zelda's robe was a shout-out to Sheik from OoT. It was said that Sheik was actually going to be in TP, but was later taken out. Sheik from SSBB was created to look like how Sheik was supposed to look like in TP (At least, thats what i heard. Shut me up if I'm wrong)

Sakurai said that on the Brawl Dojo, so yes, you're right. If they had added Sheik, TP would be even more of an OoT remake.

Like I said, I think Nintendo just likes reusing the cool designs they come up with. Just slap the Sheikah symbol all over the place, same for the Gerudo. Why not, right? >_>

The Gerudo symbol has proved to be more of a Ganondorf-related obstacle sign than that of the actual Gerudo. Blocks have it, Onox and Veran have it, yet they don't seem to be Gerudo. The Gerudo did not build the blocks that are in the Deku Tree, etc, I believe the symbols are on them simply to signify treachery, and with Ganon as the head of all that is treacherous, ther you have it.

OR it could be the block trade as Zaneeba put it.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

What states that? Nothing states that.

Sakurai said that on the Brawl Dojo, so yes, you're right. If they had added Sheik, TP would be even more of an OoT remake.

The Gerudo symbol has proved to be more of a Ganondorf-related obstacle sign than that of the actual Gerudo. Blocks have it, Onox and Veran have it, yet they don't seem to be Gerudo. The Gerudo did not build the blocks that are in the Deku Tree, etc, I believe the symbols are on them simply to signify treachery, and with Ganon as the head of all that is treacherous, ther you have it.

OR it could be the block trade as Zaneeba put it.

Yes, exactly the same sort of thing happens in MM with the puzzle bricks aswell,they all have the majora's mask on them. They were probably put in there by ganondorf/ skull kid to let you know its there doing.

BTW those blocks that have the gerudo symbol brought a thought to my attention, The gerudo symbol is the pakistan symbol backwards and slightly different. Isnt that wierd?

Lastly @Spire VI, IT says the legend of the twili somewhare along the lines of tp's gameplay. It says HYLIANS that use magic wrongly. But thinking back, it might have been the hylian with the afro in the forest exit that says it. Wich could very well mean it is a legend of twili that only hylians now, and it is wrong.

 

[Creo]

@ Everyone who believes the Gerudo could be the Twili people(if this hasn't been said):
Well, to start, the Gerudo's are a female only tribe, with the only male (born every 1,000 years) being Ganondorf, and then Link becoming approved, as stated in Ocarina of time.
So the fact that they are all males besides Midna (you can CLEARLY tell male/female apart), that would prove that Gerudo = Twili people wrong.

@ AngryMoblyn1881:
Ganondorf has nothing to do with Majora's Mask at all, but believing Skull Kid applied the symbol to the things in temples and the like is believable (considering there wasn't any problems UNTIL Skull Kid came along).

Oh, and the symbol on the last page (on Ganondorfs door)...it reminds me of the Lens of Truth. . .anyone?

 

[Beware the Jabberwocky]

Well, yes. I mean, the Lens of Truth was made by the Sheikah, theoretically.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

@ Everyone who believes the Gerudo could be the Twili people(if this hasn't been said):
Well, to start, the Gerudo's are a female only tribe, with the only male (born every 1,000 years) being Ganondorf, and then Link becoming approved, as stated in Ocarina of time.
So the fact that they are all males besides Midna (you can CLEARLY tell male/female apart), that would prove that Gerudo = Twili people wrong.

@ AngryMoblyn1881:
Ganondorf has nothing to do with Majora's Mask at all, but believing Skull Kid applied the symbol to the things in temples and the like is believable (considering there wasn't any problems UNTIL Skull Kid came along).

Oh, and the symbol on the last page (on Ganondorfs door)...it reminds me of the Lens of Truth. . .anyone?

I dont recall saying he has anything to do with the events. What I was MEANING to say was there is a relationship, between the moving blocks in the dungeon puzzles.

Moon=ganondorf's symbol
Mask= skull kid's symbol

BTW if you would all watch this video I have found, I think it will make a lot of sence, and I cant really find any faults in it. : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n--UKEZ3-rk

_________________________

 

[Spire]

I dont recall saying he has anything to do with the events. What I was MEANING to say was there is a relationship, between the moving blocks in the dungeon puzzles.

Moon=ganondorf's symbol
Mask= skull kid's symbol

BTW if you would all watch this video I have found, I think it will make a lot of sence, and I cant really find any faults in it. : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n--UKEZ3-rk

Yeah, no immediately recognizable flaws in that video. Seeing as how the Twilight Realm is composed of a seemingly infinite sky dotted with floating rocks, the Moon from Majora's Mask would not be out of place.

Also, don't manually post your sig in posts. Add the image to your sig via the User CP, but make sure everything you post is longer than the sig's length, or you will receive infractions for the signature violation rule.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

Yeah, no immediately recognizable flaws in that video. Seeing as how the Twilight Realm is composed of a seemingly infinite sky dotted with floating rocks, the Moon from Majora's Mask would not be out of place.

Also, don't manually post your sig in posts. Add the image to your sig via the User CP, but make sure everything you post is longer than the sig's length, or you will receive infractions for the signature violation rule.

Alright, still a bit of a noob .

Also, one of the main reasons I posted the vid here is because of the moon thing, how it goes all pixplated at the end (like in TP when teleporting). My theory on this is, Simpaly stating back to my older theory, on how Link changed hyrule because of the events of MM.

 

[P.G.T Manik]

Oh the Twili!!! Well I haven't looked at what other people have said so I will just state my opinion.

Well, the first thing I would like to note is how only Midna and Zant look different from the rest of the Twili. Also, they do mention that the Twili are a race that were sealed away long ago. Now I did see that video up there before, and think that yes, it does have to do with Majora's Mask. The first thing that we can say is that they might be all different races, but all did something that got them into the Twilight Realm. One way you could think is that they are an older race of Gerudo because Zant is the only one that looks different, and he is obviously a male. Now we can speculate that he is a male Gerudo gone Twilight, and that it had something else to do with the changing, but no proof to back that up. Now why would Midna be different? My thought it that she had something to do with Majora as in the creature behind the mask for the reasons in that video. Another speculation could be that if they are an older race of Gerudo, Midna could have been banished for using the Mask. This is an odd way to think, but most of Zelda Debates come down to speculation. One last point I would like to make is the Twilight Realm. I have an extremely odd speculation that it could have something to do with the Shadow Temple. Now that would make sense too; the darkest temple in the game full of evil stuff would be a gateway or connected to the Twilight Realm. So it could be that the Twili are Gerudo of a much older race and could possible be connected with the Shadow Temple. This is my opinion so please respect it.

~Manik

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

Oh the Twili!!! Well I haven't looked at what other people have said so I will just state my opinion.

Well, the first thing I would like to note is how only Midna and Zant look different from the rest of the Twili. Also, they do mention that the Twili are a race that were sealed away long ago. Now I did see that video up there before, and think that yes, it does have to do with Majora's Mask. The first thing that we can say is that they might be all different races, but all did something that got them into the Twilight Realm. One way you could think is that they are an older race of Gerudo because Zant is the only one that looks different, and he is obviously a male. Now we can speculate that he is a male Gerudo gone Twilight, and that it had something else to do with the changing, but no proof to back that up. Now why would Midna be different? My thought it that she had something to do with Majora as in the creature behind the mask for the reasons in that video. Another speculation could be that if they are an older race of Gerudo, Midna could have been banished for using the Mask. This is an odd way to think, but most of Zelda Debates come down to speculation. One last point I would like to make is the Twilight Realm. I have an extremely odd speculation that it could have something to do with the Shadow Temple. Now that would make sense too; the darkest temple in the game full of evil stuff would be a gateway or connected to the Twilight Realm. So it could be that the Twili are Gerudo of a much older race and could possible be connected with the Shadow Temple. This is my opinion so please respect it.

~Manik

That is a good point, but you know it doesnt have to be an older race of gerudo. What I am thinking is that zant is the old ganondorf. Get it? You see, boys are born in the gerudo tribe every 1000 years so He might have been the old leader, befor the coming of ol` dorf

 

[Spire]

Every 100 years [1]. Ganondorf was perhaps around 30-40 years old in OoT, so that would mean another Gerudo male should be born 60-70 years after OoT and MM in both the Adult and Child Timelines. The Twili are a people able to reproduce normally, so they are not afflicted with the Gerudo curse. Though it is interesting that Zant, a bearer of an abstracted version of the Gerudo symbol would be born to this tribe and happen to become affiliated with Ganondorf, a Gerudo male.

 

[P.G.T Manik]

Does it actually say in the game that he is 30-40 years old? Not trying to prove anything, but I want information from the games to back up my theories. Back to Ganondorf; if you think about one of my other theories, that they are an older breed of Gerudo, then the possibly could reproduce. I also can not remember if, in TP, they say the Twili can reproduce normally. If they can, they we would have to speculate for that.

I am not sure if anyone has said this before but there is another theory I could support. The Twili were the group that created Majora's Mask and got themselves locked up in the Twilight Realm by the Goddesses. This would mean that they have ONLY been Twili, but possibly looking different than they do now. It is something that is really simple, but that could just be it. Either one of these speculations could be right but we won't know unless a new game comes out *cough* Zelda Wii *cough* and makes some sense of it.

~Manik