Legend of Zelda A Debate to the Past

[AngryMoblyn1881]

Actually, the Kokiri evolved into monkeys for two reasons: A) They evolved into Koroks in the parallel timeline, and B) to adapt to the overgrown forested region (like the Koroks adapted to the Great Sea by developing hovering abilities and becoming light and hollow).

But isnt it possible that most of them became skull kids?

 

[zaneebaslave]

I still dont understand why Zoras would evolve into birds when they could easily just evolve the ability to breathe in salt water a lot easier then to evolve into birds. And I dont know why Kokiri would "devolve" into monkeys. It's stupid. really really stupid.

 

[Phantom7]

But isnt it possible that most of them became skull kids?

No. Two reasons: 1) They didn't become Skullkids on the other timeline. Instead they evolved into Koroks, and 2) Kokiri do not become Skullkids. This is purely based on speculation, but I think Hylian children (except Link since he was accepted by the Deku Tree) become Skulkids. And Kokiri that leave the forest into Hyrule Field become Stalchildren.

I still dont understand why Zoras would evolve into birds when they could easily just evolve the ability to breathe in salt water a lot easier then to evolve into birds. And I dont know why Kokiri would "devolve" into monkeys. It's stupid. really really stupid.

I don't know why Zoras evolved into Rito, either, but the Kokiri didn't "devolve" just because in our world, humans evolved from monkey-related animals. The Kokiri aren't exactly human; they're much more like elves. They evolved to adapt to the overgrown forest environment. They no longer needed human intelligence.

 

[Ganonsburg]

As far as the Zoras evolving, it's likely that it was caused by the goddesses to prevent them finding Hyrule beneath the water. At least, that's the best reason I can think of.

 

[theunabletable]

I think that Miyamoto said that it was about 100 years. So... you know.

That interview was MISTRANSLATED (I've said this like 4 times now...).

It got RETRANSLATED by Jacensolo of LA forums and it's actually supposed to be SEVERAL HUNDRED years.

 

[SkylerOcon]

That interview was MISTRANSLATED (I've said this like 4 times now...).

It got RETRANSLATED by Jacensolo of LA forums and it's actually supposed to be SEVERAL HUNDRED years.

Link to the retranslation?

 

[theunabletable]

Gimme a few minutes to find it...

Gah I think it's somewhere in this thread: http://forums.legendsalliance.com/topic/14202-translation-of-japanese-game-texts/

In one of the 1527 replies... lol

It might take a little longer to find it...

 

[Phantom7]

As far as the Zoras evolving, it's likely that it was caused by the goddesses to prevent them finding Hyrule beneath the water. At least, that's the best reason I can think of.

That sounds like a decently plausible reason. Besides, flying is way more efficient for travel than swimming in an ocean as large as the Great Sea.

Also, it is several hundred years between OoT and WW. It must be, because enough time passed for civilizations to develop on the remaining islands.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

No. Two reasons: 1) They didn't become Skullkids on the other timeline. Instead they evolved into Koroks, and 2) Kokiri do not become Skullkids. This is purely based on speculation, but I think Hylian children (except Link since he was accepted by the Deku Tree) become Skulkids. And Kokiri that leave the forest into Hyrule Field become Stalchildren.



I don't know why Zoras evolved into Rito, either, but the Kokiri didn't "devolve" just because in our world, humans evolved from monkey-related animals. The Kokiri aren't exactly human; they're much more like elves. They evolved to adapt to the overgrown forest environment. They no longer needed human intelligence.

I still dont see wehy it isnt possible for the monkeys of terminia to come over to hyrule.

 

[Phantom7]

I still dont see wehy it isnt possible for the monkeys of terminia to come over to hyrule.

Let's focus on what's more realistic, shall we? Kokiri evolved into Koroks in the WW timeline, so for events on either side of the timeline to remain parallel, the Kokiri must have evolved into monkeys in the TP timeline. Also, everything in Termina is a complete mirror image of Hyrule. Nothing can enter or leave, except Skullkid, Tael, Tatl, and the Hero of Time. It's a lot like entering a portal into a mirror, where the entire universe is backwards.

 

[zaneebaslave]

We know there are monkeys in Zelda. In the understood Timeline, monkeys even predate TP. That means, the TP monkeys are probably... just monkeys. I'll try not to debunk the theory of the kokiri turning into these monkeys (Though it ***** my childhood and shows nintendo's gross negligence of Zelda lore), but why would the designers go the way of the monkey if there are already monkeys in the Zeldaverse?

Honestly, I'm grasping at straws here. I hate this **** theory, and it will probably make me hate TP even more since they killed one of my favorite things in Zelda. I had always thought that the Kokiri were probably just somewhere else entirely with the Great Deku tree somewhere deep in the far reaches of the woods. Now, they're these hideously designed monkeys living in a dead tree, stealing baby cradles and getting locked in cages. It sucks, honestly.

 

[Phantom7]

We know there are monkeys in Zelda. In the understood Timeline, monkeys even predate TP. That means, the TP monkeys are probably... just monkeys. I'll try not to debunk the theory of the kokiri turning into these monkeys (Though it ***** my childhood and shows nintendo's gross negligence of Zelda lore), but why would the designers go the way of the monkey if there are already monkeys in the Zeldaverse?

Honestly, I'm grasping at straws here. I hate this **** theory, and it will probably make me hate TP even more since they killed one of my favorite things in Zelda. I had always thought that the Kokiri were probably just somewhere else entirely with the Great Deku tree somewhere deep in the far reaches of the woods. Now, they're these hideously designed monkeys living in a dead tree, stealing baby cradles and getting locked in cages. It sucks, honestly.

I don't really like that, either, but it was necessary. They had the right idea, but they just did it wrong. I would have liked to see a village of part-Minish-Kokiri-Korok creatures living deep in the woods as the Kokiri evolution, but they went with uncreative little monkeys. *Sigh*...

 

[Spire]

Well, it's not proven that the Kokiri transformed into the monkeys. That's a theory (that I believe I actually started in the online Zelda community from first posting it on Zelda wiki, then it widespreading across all the forums), not a Nintendo-confirmation. But yeah, you're convinced that it's the truth because it's a **** good theory.

@ Phantom - My longtime desired look of the Kokiri would be exactly that - a hybrid between the Minish, Kokiri, and Korok. It'd just be splendid.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

For those who believe in Zelda evolution: I just realized that if you believe that the Kokiri, Zoras, etc. evolved within the time span a few hundred years, it's contradictory to say that the Deku Sprout could not have grown in the same amount of time.

Also remember that enough time passes between OoT and WW/TP for Hyrule to completely flood and for new civilizations to begin on the remaining islands. I think it makes perfect sense that the Deku Sprout is dead.

BUT, if the worlds are mirror imaged, then how do you explain the geographical flaw. Terminia is round and hyrule..... well isnt

 

[Ganonsburg]

They aren't mirror imaged, they're parallel worlds. You can share characteristics with someone without being an exact clone of them (ie siblings, non-identical twins).

 

[Spire]

BUT, if the worlds are mirror imaged, then how do you explain the geographical flaw. Terminia is round and hyrule..... well isnt

Let's review the shapes of the worlds in Zelda:

Hyrule ca. LoZ/AoL takes on an oblong shape.
Hyrule ca. ALttP is square.
Koholint Island ca. LA is square.
Hyrule ca. OoT takes on a different oblong shape.
Termina ca. MM is relatively circular, but still branches out in different forms.
Labrynna/Holodrum ca. OoX are square.
Hyrule ca. WW is flooded (The Great Sea), but square.
Hyrule ca. FS/FSA is instanced and does not have a proper overworld.
Hyrule ca. TMC is square.
Hyrule ca. TP is ridiculously oblong.
The Great Sea ca. PH is rectangular, split into four quadrants.
New Hyrule ca. ST is rectangular, split into four quadrants.

The geography is very unimportant in Zelda, as it changes from game to game simply to fit the bounds of the engine that the game is designed with. Pixels are square, so multiply them ten-thousandfold and you get a square-shaped land, just as the design of a molecule is incredibly similar to a solar system.

Termina is not a perfect mirror of Hyrule, it's simply an alternative world to Hyrule and in some ways, may be viewed on an equal level of both Labrynna and Holodrum (OoX, who just like MM, shares many identical characters with OoT and MM).

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

They aren't mirror imaged, they're parallel worlds. You can share characteristics with someone without being an exact clone of them (ie siblings, non-identical twins).

But I dont see how thay can have a twin of everything but the geographical topic.

 

[Spire]

But I dont see how thay can have a twin of everything but the geographical topic.

They don't have a twin of everything. There are no confirmed equivalents for: Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Skull Kid, Saria, Impa, Epona, Jabu Jabu, The Deku Tree, The Goron Elder, Goron Elder's Son, Deku King, Deku Butler, Deku Princess, Mikau, Japas, Tijo, Evan, "them", and I'm sure quite a few more that don't come to mind.

Though I just realized...

We never see the King or Queen of Hyrule in OoT, but they have suggested equivalents:

Which are Mayor Dotour and Madame Aroma. And of course, we know they have a son, Kafei, which conceptually is actually Zelda's equivalent as strange as that is. Remember, there are conceptual equivalents between the games that don't visually resemble one another, like Darunia and Darmani, or the Sheikah and the Ikana. There is a difference between them. Just thought I'd point that out.

Oh, and as for geography/locations:
Hyrule Castle/Town = Clock Town
Hyrule Field = Termina Field
Lost Woods = Woods of Mystery
Kokiri Forest = Deku Palace
Kakariko Village = Ikana Canyon
Death Mountain = Woodfall (volcano)
Zora's River = Great Bay
Zora's Domain = Zora Hall
Gerudo Fortress = Pirate's Fortress

 

[Ganonsburg]

I wasn't saying that there's a twin of everything. I was saying that you can share similarities without being an exact clone of the other thing. Twins are a real-world example of this, as are virtually any sibling. They share virtually the same DNA and even many character traits, but they aren't exactly the same in every way. Their looks slightly differ, and some of their character traits are different. Also, they have two completely different lives.

So similar, but not congruent. That's all I'm saying.

 

[zaneebaslave]

Why does Ingo have 3 different counterparts in Majora's Mask? The world... may never know.

 

[Spire]

Let's draw a verdict

So about the Forest Temple... What do you guys think? In a short, simple answer, what is your position on the topic at hand?

 

[zaneebaslave]

So about the Forest Temple... What do you guys think? In a short, simple answer, what is your position on the topic at hand?

I hate it with all my heart... but it's a good theory, which seems to have no evidence against it... so, i guess it's true. But just so you know, I hate Twilight Princess.

 

[Phantom7]

So about the Forest Temple... What do you guys think? In a short, simple answer, what is your position on the topic at hand?

It is half Deku Sprout, half Deku Tree remains, with the center chasm dividing the two.

 

[Ganonsburg]

I'd say it's most certainly one or two deku trees. Maybe the Deku Tree and it's Scrub, or maybe two that we haven't heard of, or a combination. But I don't think the Fused Shadows would be placed in just any tree. I'm really sure if I want to think any more specifically than that.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

I wasn't saying that there's a twin of everything. I was saying that you can share similarities without being an exact clone of the other thing. Twins are a real-world example of this, as are virtually any sibling. They share virtually the same DNA and even many character traits, but they aren't exactly the same in every way. Their looks slightly differ, and some of their character traits are different. Also, they have two completely different lives.

So similar, but not congruent. That's all I'm saying.

But Thay then cant be parallel! For example, parallel usualy is a mathamatical term for 2 straight lines that will never meet. Terminia and hyrule are basicly squggly lines. So a better term would be roughly parallel but not completly. In some ways conjoined like with the tingle thing how is he in windwaker aswell? Wich would point back to one of you saying that only skull kid and link can go through the portal! They cant be parallel if 2 DIFFERENT characters have the same name. Sooooooo tingl MUST have gone through the portal to hyrule. Wich makes it perfectly possible that the monkeys in TP are the ones from Terminia.

P.S My verdict is the same deku and scrub= forest temple

sorry to go so of track with the terminia thing

 

[Phantom7]

But Thay then cant be parallel! For example, parallel usualy is a mathamatical term for 2 straight lines that will never meet. Terminia and hyrule are basicly squggly lines. So a better term would be roughly parallel but not completly. In some ways conjoined like with the tingle thing how is he in windwaker aswell? Wich would point back to one of you saying that only skull kid and link can go through the portal! They cant be parallel if 2 DIFFERENT characters have the same name. Sooooooo tingl MUST have gone through the portal to hyrule. Wich makes it perfectly possible that the monkeys in TP are the ones from Terminia.

P.S My verdict is the same deku and scrub= forest temple

sorry to go so of track with the terminia thing

No, they're not parallel in EVERY SINGLE LAST POSSIBLE WAY, but they're generally like mirror-worlds. And no, it's more likely that the monkeys in TP evolved from the Kokiri since the Kokiri no longer exist, and the monkeys' habitat is roughly in/around the Forest Temple, as we have theorized to be the remains of the Deku Sprout/Tree. As we know it, people/living beings don't travel back and forth through the portal, including Tingle and the monkeys. I actually think the Ocarina of Time is the portal, so Link, Tatl, Tael, and Skullkid were able to travel from Hyrule to Termina, but only Link could travel back.

Btw, it's Termina, not Terminia.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

No, they're not parallel in EVERY SINGLE LAST POSSIBLE WAY, but they're generally like mirror-worlds. And no, it's more likely that the monkeys in TP evolved from the Kokiri since the Kokiri no longer exist, and the monkeys' habitat is roughly in/around the Forest Temple, as we have theorized to be the remains of the Deku Sprout/Tree. As we know it, people/living beings don't travel back and forth through the portal, including Tingle and the monkeys. I actually think the Ocarina of Time is the portal, so Link, Tatl, Tael, and Skullkid were able to travel from Hyrule to Termina, but only Link could travel back.

Btw, it's Termina, not Terminia.

I also belive that the monkeys are kokiri, but I was just pointing out other suggestions for debate sake

 

[Phantom7]

I also belive that the monkeys are kokiri, but I was just pointing out other suggestions for debate sake

Oh, okay. But be careful; it really sounded like you actually believed that "suggestion".

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

Oh, okay. But be careful; it really sounded like you actually believed that "suggestion".

Alrighty

But here is something to think about, do you remember the lumberjack twins in alttp? Many ppl think they look like kokiri, and I just might belive that, but following my timeline alttp comes after OoT (adult timeline) meaning TP is on the other side, so if TP`s monkeys are kokiri, then what happened to the kokiri on the other side of the timeline (alttp)? My theory is that they just found out that they COULD leave the forest so they might have just gone back to hyrule castle but some kept there clothing from the forest. Any other suggestions? Also lumberjack in japanise is kokiri! It practicaly sells its self there is no way that is a coincidence. But what I want to know is where are the rest of them? and that is where my theory came in.

=

 

[Spire]

Really, I think the true Zelda canon begins with Ocarina of Time, because since then, every game afterwards has been based off of it somehow. LoZ, AoL, ALttP, and LA all seem to be these 'demos' in the Zeldaverse for the true beginning with OoT.

So much in ALttP has been retconned in many ways. For instance:
1. Two lumberjacks appear in ALttP, named Kokiri in Japanese — they inspired the Kokiri race in OoT (which basically retcons the lumberjacks completely).

2. There was a boy who danced and played a flute on a tree stump in a forest grove — he inspired the Skull Kids in OoT.

3. The creatures in the Desert of Mystery have the prefix of Geld, which is a mistranslation or abomination of Gerudo, but there are no present members of the Gerudo tribe. Since ALttP comes after OoT, this is what seems happened: The Gerudo ca. OoT lived near the Haunted Wasteland, but sometime between then and TP, they moved to the Desert Colossus and rebuilt their fortress at its base, transforming the Spirit Temple into the Arbiter's Grounds. Come TP, the Gerudo had actually died out, but Hyrule now recognized the Haunted Wasteland as the "Gerudo Desert". Years later in ALttP, it lost this name to the "Desert of Mystery", but the creatures found there adopted the name "Gerudo" (non-canonically "Geld"), such as Geldman (Gerudoman), and Geldarm (Gerudoarm). Geld as a prefix works better admittedly.

4. The Seven Wise Men inspired the Seven Sages in OoT (another retcon).

And there are many, many more. What happened was that Nintendo made OoT as a prequel-remake of ALttP. It was first designed to be a 3D remake of ALttP and it retained a lot from that (such as the general design of Hyrule), but then became a prequel based off of minimal background info from ALttP, particularly and almost entirely its intro.

 

[Phantom7]

Really, I think the true Zelda canon begins with Ocarina of Time, because since then, every game afterwards has been based off of it somehow. LoZ, AoL, ALttP, and LA all seem to be these 'demos' in the Zeldaverse for the true beginning with OoT.

So much in ALttP has been retconned in many ways. For instance:
1. Two lumberjacks appear in ALttP, named Kokiri in Japanese — they inspired the Kokiri race in OoT (which basically retcons the lumberjacks completely).

2. There was a boy who danced and played a flute on a tree stump in a forest grove — he inspired the Skull Kids in OoT.

3. The creatures in the Desert of Mystery have the prefix of Geld, which is a mistranslation or abomination of Gerudo, but there are no present members of the Gerudo tribe. Since ALttP comes after OoT, this is what seems happened: The Gerudo ca. OoT lived near the Haunted Wasteland, but sometime between then and TP, they moved to the Desert Colossus and rebuilt their fortress at its base, transforming the Spirit Temple into the Arbiter's Grounds. Come TP, the Gerudo had actually died out, but Hyrule now recognized the Haunted Wasteland as the "Gerudo Desert". Years later in ALttP, it lost this name to the "Desert of Mystery", but the creatures found there adopted the name "Gerudo" (non-canonically "Geld"), such as Geldman (Gerudoman), and Geldarm (Gerudoarm). Geld as a prefix works better admittedly.

4. The Seven Wise Men inspired the Seven Sages in OoT (another retcon).

And there are many, many more. What happened was that Nintendo made OoT as a prequel-remake of ALttP. It was first designed to be a 3D remake of ALttP and it retained a lot from that (such as the general design of Hyrule), but then became a prequel based off of minimal background info from ALttP, particularly and almost entirely its intro.

I'm actually beginning to believe that the timeline consists of only this:

-------MM---TP
OoT{
--------------WW/PH---ST

The remaining games may just be like parallel worlds, in which the major characters and elements are present, but there is no logical timeline placing for the games. Like Miyamoto said, LA can go anywhere, and LoZ, AoL, ALttP, TMC, FS/FSA, and OoX probably weren't created to fit a timeline, either.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

Really, I think the true Zelda canon begins with Ocarina of Time, because since then, every game afterwards has been based off of it somehow. LoZ, AoL, ALttP, and LA all seem to be these 'demos' in the Zeldaverse for the true beginning with OoT.

So much in ALttP has been retconned in many ways. For instance:
1. Two lumberjacks appear in ALttP, named Kokiri in Japanese — they inspired the Kokiri race in OoT (which basically retcons the lumberjacks completely).

2. There was a boy who danced and played a flute on a tree stump in a forest grove — he inspired the Skull Kids in OoT.

3. The creatures in the Desert of Mystery have the prefix of Geld, which is a mistranslation or abomination of Gerudo, but there are no present members of the Gerudo tribe. Since ALttP comes after OoT, this is what seems happened: The Gerudo ca. OoT lived near the Haunted Wasteland, but sometime between then and TP, they moved to the Desert Colossus and rebuilt their fortress at its base, transforming the Spirit Temple into the Arbiter's Grounds. Come TP, the Gerudo had actually died out, but Hyrule now recognized the Haunted Wasteland as the "Gerudo Desert". Years later in ALttP, it lost this name to the "Desert of Mystery", but the creatures found there adopted the name "Gerudo" (non-canonically "Geld"), such as Geldman (Gerudoman), and Geldarm (Gerudoarm). Geld as a prefix works better admittedly.

4. The Seven Wise Men inspired the Seven Sages in OoT (another retcon).

And there are many, many more. What happened was that Nintendo made OoT as a prequel-remake of ALttP. It was first designed to be a 3D remake of ALttP and it retained a lot from that (such as the general design of Hyrule), but then became a prequel based off of minimal background info from ALttP, particularly and almost entirely its intro.

I see what your getting at but whaqt I dont get is how only two twins are seen as kokiri where a re the rest of them?

 

[Spire]

I'm actually beginning to believe that the timeline consists of only this:

-------MM---TP
OoT{
--------------WW/PH---ST

The remaining games may just be like parallel worlds, in which the major characters and elements are present, but there is no logical timeline placing for the games. Like Miyamoto said, LA can go anywhere, and LoZ, AoL, ALttP, TMC, FS/FSA, and OoX probably weren't created to fit a timeline, either.

Yeah, that's really the only defined timeline. Every other game is, as you said, may just be like parallel worlds.

Or, there are multiple timelines based around OoT, such as the classic one:

OoT -> LoZ/AoL -> ALttP/LA

I see what your getting at but whaqt I dont get is how only two twins are seen as kokiri where a re the rest of them?

Well that's just it..

It was a SNES game. It was limited in capabilities and Hyrule was relatively small. In its retcon OoT, they explored the lore so much more, developing and adding more races such as the Gorons and the civilized Zora. Realize what happened with the Kokiri though. The Japanese first put to kokiri in the game as simple lumberjacks. They weren't a race of a forest children, they were just two lumberjacks. Come OoT, they took the 'kokiri' and made a whole new concept out of them.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

Yeah, that's really the only defined timeline. Every other game is, as you said, may just be like parallel worlds.

Or, there are multiple timelines based around OoT, such as the classic one:

OoT -> LoZ/AoL -> ALttP/LA


Well that's just it..

It was a SNES game. It was limited in capabilities and Hyrule was relatively small. In its retcon OoT, they explored the lore so much more, developing and adding more races such as the Gorons and the civilized Zora. Realize what happened with the Kokiri though. The Japanese first put to kokiri in the game as simple lumberjacks. They weren't a race of a forest children, they were just two lumberjacks. Come OoT, they took the 'kokiri' and made a whole new concept out of them.

but what I am saying is that ALTTP comes after OoT in the adult timeline so how do you explain that in timeline form? Like what is the most logical explonation

 

[Ganonsburg]

He's saying that in ALttP the lumberjacks were simply named Kokiri. They're normal people who are called kokiri. In games, they may have heard the legend of the forest people and named themselves after them (like how you have Nike, which is named after a Greek goddess).

That's how I interpret it anyway.

 

[Spire]

but what I am saying is that ALTTP comes after OoT in the adult timeline so how do you explain that in timeline form? Like what is the most logical explonation

You believe that it comes after OoT in the Adult Timeline, while I believe it comes in the Child Timeline. I can tell you why I don't believe it comes in the Adult Timeline:

- The placement of the Master Sword in ALttP is synonymous with TP, whereas in the Adult Timeline, it is stuck in petrified Ganondorf's head at the bottom of the sea.

- The sages in ALttP are described as "old wise men", not "One Hylian male, one Hylian female, one Kokiri female, one Goron male, one Zora female, one Sheikah female, and one Gerudo female". The sages in TP were shown as "old wise men". The OoT sages were carried on in legend into WW and beyond, including the Adventure of Link, where towns were specifically named after them. These sages were never awakened in the Child Timeline, hence their absence in TP.

- The Seven Maidens in ALttP are Hylian descendants of the "old wise men" sages. How could a Kokiri, Goron, Zora, and Gerudo have Hylian descendants?

- The mere presence of Kakariko Village, Death Mountain, the Lost Woods, Lake Hylia, and as we discussed recently, the Gerudo Desert as the Desert of Mystery all signify ALttP taking place in Old Hyrule rather than New Hyrule. In fact, that was the intended purpose at the time of both it and OoT's creation. Though you could argue LoZ/AoL's placement also because they were intended to be prequels to ALttP, inherently basing them in Old Hyrule also, but there's enough evidence to relocate them into the Child Timeline.

Alright gotta eat dinner. We'll continue to discuss this.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

You believe that it comes after OoT in the Adult Timeline, while I believe it comes in the Child Timeline. I can tell you why I don't believe it comes in the Adult Timeline:

- The placement of the Master Sword in ALttP is synonymous with TP, whereas in the Adult Timeline, it is stuck in petrified Ganondorf's head at the bottom of the sea.

- The sages in ALttP are described as "old wise men", not "One Hylian male, one Hylian female, one Kokiri female, one Goron male, one Zora female, one Sheikah female, and one Gerudo female". The sages in TP were shown as "old wise men". The OoT sages were carried on in legend into WW and beyond, including the Adventure of Link, where towns were specifically named after them. These sages were never awakened in the Child Timeline, hence their absence in TP.

- The Seven Maidens in ALttP are Hylian descendants of the "old wise men" sages. How could a Kokiri, Goron, Zora, and Gerudo have Hylian descendants?

- The mere presence of Kakariko Village, Death Mountain, the Lost Woods, Lake Hylia, and as we discussed recently, the Gerudo Desert as the Desert of Mystery all signify ALttP taking place in Old Hyrule rather than New Hyrule. In fact, that was the intended purpose at the time of both it and OoT's creation. Though you could argue LoZ/AoL's placement also because they were intended to be prequels to ALttP, inherently basing them in Old Hyrule also, but there's enough evidence to relocate them into the Child Timeline.

Alright gotta eat dinner. We'll continue to discuss this.

lol, ok

So what you are saying is that the kokiri are wiped out instead of monkeys, and these lumberjacks are actuall hylians that have heard of the kokiri legend?

 

[Spire]

lol, ok

So what you are saying is that the kokiri are wiped out instead of monkeys, and these lumberjacks are actuall hylians that have heard of the kokiri legend?

I believe that the Kokiri became the monkeys ca. TP. To note, I just looked it up and lumberjack in Japanese is actually "Kikori", which is an anagram of Kokiri. I believe simply that the lumberjacks were inspiration for the Kokiri but have no canon relation to them whatsoever. They are a few men in green clothing and caps, but are not Kokiri.

I think we can wrap up the first debate now and move on to another, yes?

 

[Ganonsburg]

I'm ready for something else. Haha. Something that may end up more conclusively.

 

[Spire]

I've archived the first debate session in the OP and am working on a new prompt now, unless you've any ideas.