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Legend of Zelda A Debate to the Past

AngryMoblyn1881

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
330
Hmm, I reread everything. I'm going to hold my breath until SS comes out. If it fails to provide another race for which the Twili could be descendents of, then the Gerudo it is.
I also highly agree with this decision. SS (being supposedly the first in the time line of games) MUST prove something us fans no little of, in nearly everygame we have heard tales from long ago, and they always turn out to be quite the mysterious tales about something you cant quite put your finger on. If nintendo do this game right, and base it round history of hyrule(and not just about wii motion plus!) It should give us a lot of useful evidence for us fans theorys and suggestions.

P.S thank you for the briefings guys! :D
 

Hesitate71

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 21, 2011
Messages
2
I think that windwaker had happened between MM and TP. While Link was gone in Termina, the g
 

Hesitate71

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 21, 2011
Messages
2
The gods had flooded Hyrule because Ganon had attacked and no help was coming, because link was in Termina...and when the goddesses flooded Hyrule everything got moved because of the fast tides and currents and that could explain the difference between the maps of OoT and TP.
 

AngryMoblyn1881

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
330
I can't wait until SS comes out and completely ignores all of this.
Haha i can totally see that happening. It is worrying me how much thought they are pouring in to the wii's controll scheme. Dont get me wrong but i play zelda almost purely for the story line i could care less how "smooth" the wii controls are. Im counting on this game to solve many debates we have had in this forum. But it doesnt seem to be going that way. :scared:
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
I really don't see "gerudo = interlopers" as being probable, the sheikah either but I'm surprised a few people have pushed the gerudo theory so hard. ganondorf's own words contradict both the idea of the twili being his people, and the idea that they were sent to the twilight realm at a similar time, which they would have been if the interloper war was what took place on the child timeline following the events of OoT. the interloper myth also states that the goddesses sealed the invaders power, but ganon's execution shows that he has the triforce of power right up until he is banished to twilight. the gerudo also have not really been portrayed as powerful magic users except ganon, koume, and kotake, and nothing like the fused shadow has been shown either. it also contradicts the ending of OoT which shows the gerudo also celebrating ganondorfs defeat, it is never explicitly stated that ganondorf invaded hyrule with the full support of the gerudo to begin with, and his right hand woman was plotting to rebel against him even during the child portion of the game. it has far too many holes, and the triforce is split between that time and TP, so I believe the interloper war must predate OoT, or is one HELL of a retcon even by nintendo's standards

a few other things this made me think of

a) the interlopers could just be a story meant to teach a moral, it may not be literal history. the myth as told by lanayru makes no mention of the twili being banished, this is a detail added later by midna, which could indicate a larger degree of ambiguity surrounding these events

b) ganondorf, koume, and kotake, in addition to being the magic users, also have different skin than the rest of the gerudo. dark green where other gerudo could be seen as something similar to south american or middle eastern people. maaaaaybe they aren't gerudo at all and there are no gerudo males period? mother of all retcons if this ever pans out
 

Jar.

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 6, 2011
Messages
46
Location
Katy, Texas
b) ganondorf, koume, and kotake, in addition to being the magic users, also have different skin than the rest of the gerudo. dark green where other gerudo could be seen as something similar to south american or middle eastern people. maaaaaybe they aren't gerudo at all and there are no gerudo males period? mother of all retcons if this ever pans out
No, that can't be right. Nabooru specifically says that "the Gerudo race consists only of women. Only one man is born every hundred years... Even though our laws say that lone male Gerudo must become King of the Gerudo, I'll never bow to such an evil man!" in OoT.
For more proof, a Gossip Stone in OoT says "They say that the horse Ganondorf rides is a solid black Gerudo stallion." How would he get a Gerudo horse if he wasn't Gerudo himself?

Ganondorf is definitely Gerudo, but I'm not sure about Kotake and Koume. They might just be the matriarchs of the Gerudo race.
 

AngryMoblyn1881

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
330
Some say that K & K are ganondorf's mothers (how ever that works ._.). But they are most deffinatly gerudo. I can tell you this simply based on there fused form. Together, they create what seems to be a very typical gerudo lady. But what also seems notable about the entity is her clothing is very much like that of the twilis garb. hmmm.
 

Jar.

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 6, 2011
Messages
46
Location
Katy, Texas
I found this in Zeldapedia. Pretty interesting stuff.


"It is said in the game that the Twili descended from the Interlopers, though the race of these interlopers is never revealed. All of the following are reasonable candidates since none of them are ever seen in game (thus supporting the story that they were banished) and that there are some physical or cultural similarities.
Sheikah
The main similarities are with the Sheikah, as both are described as wielders of Dark magic, have red irises and dwell in the shadows (even being referred to as 'the shadow folk'). Also the symbol of the Sheikah, a stylized eye with a teardrop, is present on both Zant's throne and on the back of the Fused Shadows. The version on Zant's throne appears several times throughout the Twilight and on the black walls separating the parts of Hyrule covered in Twilight from the rest of it. Notably, in the Twili version of the eye is smaller and rounder, and missing the three-triangled eyebrow. The Sheikah becoming the Interlopers may be the event that caused them to either pledge their loyalty to the Royal Family or be banished.
Ancient Ones
Another race called the Ancient Ones, though not featured in the series and is only briefly mentioned in The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, are those that used Majora's Mask in their 'hexing rituals'. There are many similarities between the Twili and Majora's Mask itself, which implies that the Twili could be the same race. The similarities involve some shapes featured on Majora's Mask being present on Midna's helmet, the Fused Shadow (the eye especially). Zant's behavior is very similar to creatures specific to Majora's Mask and the Mask itself, such as Zant screeching in a similar fashion to Majora's Mask, being a sympathetic villain much like Skull Kid who wore the Mask. During the mention of those who used the Mask, the Happy Mask Salesman mentions that the mask was hidden in shadows, and the Twilight Realm is sometimes called "The Realm of Shadows". Also, the entrance to the Stone Tower Temple in Majora's Mask appears to be a large face with it's tongue sticking out. Zant's helmet also resembles a face with it's tongue out, which would lead to the belief that the ones who built the tower (sometimes believed to be the same race as the ones who made the mask) could be the Twili (possibly also connecting to the Garo, based on one of their undead spirits being found in the tower). However, as it is implied that Termina, the land in which the events of Majora's Mask take place, is in another realm entirely, it is unlikely that they would be the same specific people, though it is still possible that they are of the same species.
Gerudo
Another possibility is that at least a portion of the Gerudo tribe were the ones who gained the mysterious power of the Fused Shadows and were cast into the Twilight Realm. Midna's story that the Twili race were originally a tribe of thieves, her mention that the Twili's ancestors "lost their king to greed", and why the entrance to the Twilight Realm is located in the Gerudo Desert, though it is extremely difficult to reconcile with Midna's complete unfamiliarity with Ganondorf. As for appearance, Midna does have the classic red-orange hair of the Gerudo and her true form is tall and slender, just as the Gerudo women once were. Also, there is a Gerudo pattern and converted Gerudo symbol on the front of Zant's robe, which he wore even before his encounter with Ganondorf, whom he worshiped as a god. Gerudo also worship Ganondorf as a god, which a Gossip Stone tells Link.
Other
Finally, there remains the possibility that the Interlopers were not of any one race or tribe, but were a cult of people made up of several different races and cultures. Evidence to support this is Lanayru's vision where Link kills his closest friend to seek after the Triforce, only to become an Interloper himself. It can be interpreted that several people throughout Hyrule betrayed their fellow countrymen to obtain the Triforce and eventually united as the Interlopers. Once sealed in the Twilight Realm, the long-term effect of the Twilight on them could have transformed them into one single race, and may explain the large differences in appearance that some Twili have from others."

I think the ancient ones are another possibility, seems reasonable.
 

AngryMoblyn1881

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
330
I found this in Zeldapedia. Pretty interesting stuff.


"It is said in the game that the Twili descended from the Interlopers, though the race of these interlopers is never revealed. All of the following are reasonable candidates since none of them are ever seen in game (thus supporting the story that they were banished) and that there are some physical or cultural similarities.
Sheikah
The main similarities are with the Sheikah, as both are described as wielders of Dark magic, have red irises and dwell in the shadows (even being referred to as 'the shadow folk'). Also the symbol of the Sheikah, a stylized eye with a teardrop, is present on both Zant's throne and on the back of the Fused Shadows. The version on Zant's throne appears several times throughout the Twilight and on the black walls separating the parts of Hyrule covered in Twilight from the rest of it. Notably, in the Twili version of the eye is smaller and rounder, and missing the three-triangled eyebrow. The Sheikah becoming the Interlopers may be the event that caused them to either pledge their loyalty to the Royal Family or be banished.
Ancient Ones
Another race called the Ancient Ones, though not featured in the series and is only briefly mentioned in The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, are those that used Majora's Mask in their 'hexing rituals'. There are many similarities between the Twili and Majora's Mask itself, which implies that the Twili could be the same race. The similarities involve some shapes featured on Majora's Mask being present on Midna's helmet, the Fused Shadow (the eye especially). Zant's behavior is very similar to creatures specific to Majora's Mask and the Mask itself, such as Zant screeching in a similar fashion to Majora's Mask, being a sympathetic villain much like Skull Kid who wore the Mask. During the mention of those who used the Mask, the Happy Mask Salesman mentions that the mask was hidden in shadows, and the Twilight Realm is sometimes called "The Realm of Shadows". Also, the entrance to the Stone Tower Temple in Majora's Mask appears to be a large face with it's tongue sticking out. Zant's helmet also resembles a face with it's tongue out, which would lead to the belief that the ones who built the tower (sometimes believed to be the same race as the ones who made the mask) could be the Twili (possibly also connecting to the Garo, based on one of their undead spirits being found in the tower). However, as it is implied that Termina, the land in which the events of Majora's Mask take place, is in another realm entirely, it is unlikely that they would be the same specific people, though it is still possible that they are of the same species.
Gerudo
Another possibility is that at least a portion of the Gerudo tribe were the ones who gained the mysterious power of the Fused Shadows and were cast into the Twilight Realm. Midna's story that the Twili race were originally a tribe of thieves, her mention that the Twili's ancestors "lost their king to greed", and why the entrance to the Twilight Realm is located in the Gerudo Desert, though it is extremely difficult to reconcile with Midna's complete unfamiliarity with Ganondorf. As for appearance, Midna does have the classic red-orange hair of the Gerudo and her true form is tall and slender, just as the Gerudo women once were. Also, there is a Gerudo pattern and converted Gerudo symbol on the front of Zant's robe, which he wore even before his encounter with Ganondorf, whom he worshiped as a god. Gerudo also worship Ganondorf as a god, which a Gossip Stone tells Link.
Other
Finally, there remains the possibility that the Interlopers were not of any one race or tribe, but were a cult of people made up of several different races and cultures. Evidence to support this is Lanayru's vision where Link kills his closest friend to seek after the Triforce, only to become an Interloper himself. It can be interpreted that several people throughout Hyrule betrayed their fellow countrymen to obtain the Triforce and eventually united as the Interlopers. Once sealed in the Twilight Realm, the long-term effect of the Twilight on them could have transformed them into one single race, and may explain the large differences in appearance that some Twili have from others."

I think the ancient ones are another possibility, seems reasonable.
Im pretty sure we established that the ancient ones are the twili, and or dark interlopers...
 
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