Legend of Zelda A Debate to the Past

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Nope, it has stuff related to the Gods.

 

[Spire]

The only mention of anything Hyrule in Termina are the Triforce carvings in Stone Tower Temple.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

Has anyone ever heard of the point/ remark on the TP skull kid? Some say his face looks like the moon from MM?!? I can also see that connection! Any thoughts?

 

[Phantom7]

Twili = Gerudo

After doing a bit of research, I have concluded that the Gerudo are, in fact, the ancestors of the Twili.

Before I elaborate on the Twili, though, I'd like to point something out.

Notice that the Gerudo emblem could possibly be the eyes of the Majora's Mask/Fused Shadow rotated and inverted horizontally. It's actually more obvious looking at the designs on Veran's shoulders plates:

(Possibly a Gerudo that was banished to the Twilight Realm?)

This is significant because, as we probably all know, the Majora's Mask and Fused Shadow are almost identical in design -

This leads me to this analogy:

Gerudo = Majora's Mask
Twili = Fused Shadow

Allow me to explain.

Arbiter's Grounds was a prison for thieves, built in the desert, supposedly where the Gerudos' Fortress once was (this could explain the ruins surrounding it). After the prisoners' terms were complete, they were sentenced to banishment through the Mirror of Twilight. It is logical to construct this prison in the desert at the precise location of the dwelling place of the tribe that was banished to the Twilight Realm. The fact that the Arbiter's Grounds and Gerudos' Fortress is mere speculation, but I can provide reasonable evidence - they are both about the same distance from Hyrule Castle in each game.

Not only is this evidence that the Gerudo was the banished tribe, just examine the appearance of the Twili compared to the Gerudo. Notice that they have similar body structure (tall and skinny), a Gerudo emblem is clearly visible on Zant's cloak, and Midna has red hair. And is it not a coincidence that Zant appears to be the only male?

But, there is the possibility that the Twili are actually the Sheikah...

Many have theorized that the Sheikah may be the Twili. It's interesting to note how similar the eye of truth looks to the designs on the Fused Shadow and Majora's Mask.

However, I find it more probable that since the Sheikah were extinct before OoT, long before the Mirror of Twilight was even constructed, they are not the creatures of the twilight. It's more likely that the Gerudo and Sheikah simply shared a common ancestor through black magic.

And that should conclude my theory. Thoughts, anyone?

 

[Ganonsburg]

We don't know the gender of the other Twili, so I wouldn't say that it's a very stable point to include in your theory.

I just noticed this, but take a look at the marking on Midna's right thigh, the upper one. I don't really know what to say about it other than it's reminding me of something else, and I can't really figure out what it is. I guess it just bears resemblance to other Zelda symbols, and not meant to reference anything in particular.

 

[Phantom7]

I pasted the Gerudo emblem directly in the center of the MM, without any scaling whatsoever, and this was the result...

 

[Spire]

I'd like to point out that in Zant's throne room, the platform that the throne sits on is lined by carvings of snakes. The Gerudo have a strong affiliation with snakes, given the statues in the Spirit Temple and the Arbiter's Grounds.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

We don't know the gender of the other Twili, so I wouldn't say that it's a very stable point to include in your theory.

Ture, but it could be a staple in Phantoms7's theory because even if the twili are ansestors of the gerudo they could of easly produced gentitic qualites that enable gender diversity (nessary in order to survive in a isolated state.) over many many years. After all acording to phantoms7's theory there ansestors not the same species.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

I think phantom is right about the point on zant being the only male. Think about it, he practically worships ganondorf, this is probably because he was the king of the gerudo before ganondorf came along(whyle he was in the twilight relm). Zant failed in obtaining the triforce and was most likely captured be the godesses during his failed invasion. So when ganondorf managed to actually get the triforce, this made zant very impressed, thus making him want to go as far as to worshiping him and follow his orders blindly.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

http://www.biology.iupui.edu/biocourses/n100/2k2endosymb.html

I say It is a mix of races. Just to mix mix it up (pun intended) but seriously I am going to say It is a sect (the ansetors I mean) of many races but mostly guardo and some shiekah (not all just a chunk.) and I say the exile of the of the ansetrial twili took place before OoT and that is where some of the Sheikah. I do not support all of my own theory, but I think it should have some thought.

 

[Spire]

You guys realize that SS might explain the Dark Interloper story, right? Let's wait and see.

 

[Phantom7]

You guys realize that SS might explain the Dark Interloper story, right? Let's wait and see.

I just posted that on the SS thread!!! Wow, Spire, you just read my mind.

 

[Spire]

I just posted that on the SS thread!!! Wow, Spire, you just read my mind.

Glad we're on the same page

 

[Phantom7]

About the Twili/Gerudo/Sheikah theory, after playing through the pre-City in the Sky section of TP, it seems nothing actually happened to the Sheikah except that they had stayed secreted in the Hidden Village until it was conquered by Bulblins. Maybe after Impa opened Kakariko to the public, the Sheikah went into hiding in what is now the Hidden Village but still aided the Royal Family? And maybe the ruins in front of the Bridge of Eldin are from the old Kakariko?

Then again, what about the possibility that the Hidden Village is the old Kakariko Village? Would that mean the Sheikah were actually destroyed?

 

[Spire]

Remember when Impa fled with Zelda in OoT on horseback to escape Ganondorf? Where exactly did they go? That's one question I kept asking when I played the game. I thought I would find their place of refuge at some point in the game, but I never did. I'm pretty sure the Hidden Village is where they went. As a secret Sheikah stronghold, it's a perfect place for Zelda to have learned the art of their people, perfecting the craft with the guise known as "Sheik".

 

[Phantom7]

That's a valid point. Agreed 100%. It appears that the Sheikah never actually did anything wrong, they were quite a peaceful clan. Perhaps Impa thought that Zelda would be safer there than anywhere else in Hyrule. If all of this is so, it's pretty unlikely they are the banished Twili.

Today while playing TP, I also really took notice of the fact that the Sky City of the Ooca was a Sheikah legend. The Ooca aided the Royal Family long ago (before OoT?), and the Sheikah recorded all of this down in the ancient Sky Book.

If the SS theory about the Dark Interloper story is accurate, do you think the Ooca and the Sheikah might feature significant roles in SS?

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

Is it possible you get to the hidden village, from the graveyard in kakariko? Maybe its an underground fortress?

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

That's a valid point. Agreed 100%. It appears that the Sheikah never actually did anything wrong, they were quite a peaceful clan. Perhaps Impa thought that Zelda would be safer there than anywhere else in Hyrule. If all of this is so, it's pretty unlikely they are the banished Twili.

Today while playing TP, I also really took notice of the fact that the Sky City of the Ooca was a Sheikah legend. The Ooca aided the Royal Family long ago (before OoT?), and the Sheikah recorded all of this down in the ancient Sky Book.

If the SS theory about the Dark Interloper story is accurate, do you think the Ooca and the Sheikah might feature significant roles in SS?

I acculy belive the occaa are NOT occaa back in the time SS is said to take place I belive that it will be the wind tribe or some varient of "Sky people", but that is just my theory.

 

[Phantom7]

I acculy belive the occaa are NOT occaa back in the time SS is said to take place I belive that it will be the wind tribe or some varient of "Sky people", but that is just my theory.

Do you believe it's possible that Sky beings evolved into the Ooca? That's possible, I would take that into account. Nonetheless, I do believe that the Ooca may have something to do with SkyLoft in SS.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Do you believe it's possible that Sky beings evolved into the Ooca? That's possible, I would take that into account. Nonetheless, I do believe that the Ooca may have something to do with SkyLoft in SS.

Yes, that is what I belive I posted it on the theory thread.

 

[Phantom7]

Well, looks like we'll have to wait and see who is in SkyLoft when we play the game.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Could of the Interloper War be part of the Impresining war ,I am not saying there the same thing there not, but timeframe wise could it have happend during the Impressioning war? this would also happen to help identify the dark interlopers regardless of the answer. ( I think so anyway)

 

[Phantom7]

Actually, during the Interloper "War" (even though no war seemed to take place), the magic that was used to invade the Sacred Realm was sealed somewhere, but the interlopers were not banished or imprisoned. What happened to them is yet to be revealed.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

.... So in theory could the magic the interlopers used to invade the sacred realm could have been used by ganon and friends during to the Impresioning war? Mabey the Dark Interlopers are a branch off the guardo but the main stream guardo? ( I belive Phantom 7 is correct in his theory. )

 

[Phantom7]

.... So in theory could the magic the interlopers used to invade the sacred realm could have been used by ganon and friends during to the Impresioning war? Mabey the Dark Interlopers are a branch off the guardo but the main stream guardo? ( I belive Phantom 7 is correct in his theory. )

The Imprisoning War mentioned in ALttP? I have no idea. That may not have anything to do with TP and definitely doesn't have anything to do with the Dark Interlopers, since the interlopers weren't actually banished (at that time anyway). I think that since Ganon and Aghanim were imprisoned sometime before, the Imprisoning War refers to the era in which they were imprisoned, which most likely takes place in a completely different timeline from TP and the OoT split timelines.

Theoretically, the Dark Interlopers were probably the Gerudo because the interlopers used the same magic used by the Fused Shadows, and theoretically, the Twili were the Gerudo.

 

[Spire]

Actually, during the Interloper "War" (even though no war seemed to take place), the magic that was used to invade the Sacred Realm was sealed somewhere, but the interlopers were not banished or imprisoned. What happened to them is yet to be revealed.

The interlopers were sealed within the Twilight Realm and over the years, became the Twili people. How did you forget that?

 

[Phantom7]

The interlopers were sealed within the Twilight Realm and over the years, became the Twili people. How did you forget that?

Hang on, I have a new theory. This cutscene actually occurs in the Child Timeline, when Link is warped back to his childhood and in Termina. This is directly parallel to the events that take place in Termina:

Fused Shadow conquers Hyrule = Majora's Mask conquers Termina.
The Interlopers invade the Sacred Realm = Skullkid invades the Moon.
The 4 Light Spirits awaken to seal the Interlopers = The 4 Giants awaken to return the moon to the sky

Apparently, this has nothing to do with SS. In that case, the SS story is new and was not planned during the development of any past games.

And according to this theory, the Gerudo are highly likely to be the Interlopers.

Here's the TP Interloper cutscene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mXRBvXQO1w

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Hang on, I have a new theory. This cutscene actually occurs in the Child Timeline, when Link is warped back to his childhood and in Termina. This is directly parallel to the events that take place in Termina:

Fused Shadow conquers Hyrule = Majora's Mask conquers Termina.
The Interlopers invade the Sacred Realm = Skullkid invades the Moon.
The 4 Light Spirits awaken to seal the Interlopers = The 4 Giants awaken to return the moon to the sky

Apparently, this has nothing to do with SS. In that case, the SS story is new and was not planned during the development of any past games.

And according to this theory, the Gerudo are highly likely to be the Interlopers.

Here's the TP Interloper cutscene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mXRBvXQO1w

I disagree with alot of this post. Majora's mask= Fused shadow as termina counter part along with light spirts = termina's giant also termina counter part I can agree with. I think the cutseen was purely metephorical in terms of who It showed as what. Though you are most likely right about guardo = twili , I Strongly disagree with your cutseen theory.

 

[Phantom7]

I disagree with alot of this post. Majora's mask= Fused shadow as termina counter part along with light spirts = termina's giant also termina counter part I can agree with. I think the cutseen was purely metephorical in terms of who It showed as what. Though you are most likely right about guardo = twili , I Strongly disagree with your cutseen theory.

That's impossible. Lanayru is specifically referring to an event. The images Link is imagining are metaphorical, though.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

I think the cutseen was purely metephorical in terms of who It showed as what.

That's impossible. Lanayru is specifically referring to an event. The images Link is imagining are metaphorical, though.

Yes that is what I meant that the images where metaphorical however I thought you meant that it used to repersent the hero of time link with hero of twilight link yet I belive link was repersenting a civilian not a hero in the flash back. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Spire]

I'm ending the Twili debate. We are never going to come to a consensus because there is just too little evidence to draw a conclusion from. Thoughts for a new debate?

 

[Phantom7]

Too little evidence? I'm almost positive that the Gerudo are the Twili. All of the Sheikah lore that depicts they are anything but assistants to the Royal Family has thrown us off IMO.

I have an idea: Is there a connection between Rauru and Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule?

 

[Spire]

Too little evidence? I'm almost positive that the Gerudo are the Twili. All of the Sheikah lore that depicts they are anything but assistants to the Royal Family has thrown us off IMO.

It's all just wishful thinking man. I think it's a debate we should return to after Skyward Sword comes out because it may provide more evidence.

 

[Phantom7]

But who else could it possibly be? Ganondorf, being a Gerudo himself, has been banished multiple times throughout the series, and the Gerudo have always been referred to as thieves. They're the only actual evil tribe within Hyrule.

 

[Spire]

But who else could it possibly be? Ganondorf, being a Gerudo himself, has been banished multiple times throughout the series, and the Gerudo have always been referred to as thieves. They're the only actual evil tribe within Hyrule.

I'll add the Gerudo to the OP then, but we still need to revisit this after SS comes out.

 

[Phantom7]

I'll add the Gerudo to the OP then, but we still need to revisit this after SS comes out.

I agree, we should, but I have a strong feeling SS is going to explain more about the Gerudos' origin than their extinction.

However, there is still the possibility that SS might introduce another tribe that could be the Twili. Somehow, I doubt that, though.

 

[Spire]

I agree, we should, but I have a strong feeling SS is going to explain more about the Gerudos' origin than their extinction.

If SS chronicles the land before it became known as Hyrule (which was when the Hylians established their rule over it), then it may be home to the warring Gerudo, Sheikah, Goron, Zora, and whatever other tribes.

I have a feeling though that the Twili were another tribe perhaps from this time who were banished. Only time will tell.

 

[Phantom7]

I've always thought that the Twili banishment occurred at the same time as MM, based on the TP Dark Interloper cutscene, but of course, it's only a theory. If this was the case, it would probably have to be the Gerudo.

I think the Sheikah were probably chased off to the Hidden Village during the Great Hylian War but still aided the Royal Family.

I hope the Sheikah make a significant appearance in SS. This may be the only game where the Sheikah tribe could be present.

 

[Spire]

I've always thought that the Twili banishment occurred at the same time as MM, based on the TP Dark Interloper cutscene, but of course, it's only a theory. If this was the case, it would probably have to be the Gerudo.

I think the Sheikah were probably chased off to the Hidden Village during the Great Hylian War but still aided the Royal Family.

I hope the Sheikah make a significant appearance in SS. This may be the only game where the Sheikah tribe could be present.

I'm quoting this from Zelda Wiki:

For a long time, the land of Hyrule lived in peace and prosperity after its creation by the Golden Goddesses; Din, Nayru, and Farore. After the goddesses were finished with Hyrule, they created another parallel world known as the Sacred Realm.[1] Before departing the realm, the Golden Goddesses left behind the three golden triangles filled with their power, these three triangles when put together would become a larger triangle known as the Triforce.

The Triforce granted the wishes of those who touched it, and granted the one who touched it nearly limitless power. However, the goddesses wished to keep the power out of evil, and so if the one who touched the Triforce was unrighteous, the Triforce would split into three, leaving the one who touched it with the piece representing the force the one believed in most. The other two parts would be given to those destined, these two bearing the mark of the Triforce on their hands.[2]

The legend spread across Hyrule, causing a great war over the location of the Sacred Realm.[3] During this war, the tribe skilled in dark magic known only as the Dark Interlopers attempted to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm and establish their power using the Fused Shadow. This prompted the intervention of the Light Spirits which sealed the Interlopers in the Twilight Realm.[4] [5] They also sealed away the great magic those individuals had mastered,[5] and splintered it, so it became the fragments of the Fused Shadow hidden in the temples of Hyrule.

The descendants of the Interlopers became the Twili, doomed to live as mere shadows in the Twilight. [6]

It is unknown whether this is the same war as the Imprisoning War or the Hyrulean Civil War mentioned as the backstory for Ocarina of Time.

For all we know, Ganondorf may have led the Gerudo (the interlopers) to attack Hyrule while Link was in Termina, but was stopped by the Light Spirits and banished, thus why he was preserved as a deity-like figure in the Twilight Realm.

Though prior to OoT we know there was the Hyrulean Civil War, in which the races fought over dominion of the Triforce. This sounds very similar to the Interloper War, so they may be the same. Here's the Ganondorf execution scene:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BVYggDnaJgY&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1?color1=0xe1600f&amp;color2=0xfebd01"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BVYggDnaJgY&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1?color1=0xe1600f&amp;color2=0xfebd01" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

It explains that he—skilled in dark magic—led a band of thieves to steal the Triforce, but was stopped and banished to the Twilight Realm. Here's what Ganon says at the end of the game:

[collapse=Ganon speech]

[/collapse]
So what can we gather from these quotes?
1. "Absolute Power" belongs to the Hylian race only. Therefore the Dark Interlopers were most definitely not Hylian as brought up earlier in this thread.
2. Ganondorf refers to the Twili as "your people", not his own. If the Gerudo had been banished along with Ganondorf then he would have referred to them as his own, but they have different roots.
3. He points out that their people defied the Gods, which was a mistake because he recognizes that it's impossible to truly defy them.

Now here's the cut scene before the battle with Zant:

[collapse=Zant speech]

[/collapse]
He speaks about their people having a royal family and their leader having great magic power. That is not possible with the Gerudo race. Firstly, the Gerudo's are traditionally led by their male patriarch born every hundred years. The Twili's leader is Midna, a female. Zant believes that he's supposed to be said leader and because he isn't, turns to a 'god' for help. It's the same case as Skull Kid. Two whiny little brats turning to an empowering evil to help them with their personal agendas.

Also in the execution video, the sages speak of an "ancient tribe", which means just that: a tribe from long ago, erased from history as they were erased from the physical realm. The Gerudo are missing from Twilight Princess, but not because they were banished. Without a male to procreate with, they are going to die out. On top of that, TP takes place at least a century after OoT, which gives this small band of people plenty of time to assimilate into the rest of the people of Hyrule. In TP, the humanoid tribes have seemingly all merged, showing how under the banner of a unified kingdom, a century or so can effect how people view one another. Rather than living disparate lives, they've all come together.

 

[Phantom7]

For all we know, Ganondorf may have led the Gerudo (the interlopers) to attack Hyrule while Link was in Termina, but was stopped by the Light Spirits and banished, thus why he was preserved as a deity-like figure in the Twilight Realm.

Now this sounds plausible. I definitely agree.

Though prior to OoT we know there was the Hyrulean Civil War, in which the races fought over dominion of the Triforce. This sounds very similar to the Interloper War, so they may be the same.

Except that it could have definitely happened in Hyrule during the MM time period, since theoretically (and actually quite obviously), the Fused Shadows are parallel to Majora's Mask, and the Light Spirits are parallel to the Four Giants. Besides, it is understood that no one invaded the Sacred Realm until Ganondorf attempted to do so in OoT.

He speaks about their people having a royal family and their leader having great magic power. That is not possible with the Gerudo race.

"Their people" as in the Twili, obviously, likely referring to Midna's rule, not the original tribe that existed long before he was even born.

Firstly, the Gerudo's are traditionally led by their male patriarch born every hundred years. The Twili's leader is Midna, a female. Zant believes that he's supposed to be said leader

Ever wondered why he is supposed to be the leader? Because that is the traditional Gerudo government - a male ruler.

and because he isn't, turns to a 'god' for help. It's the same case as Skull Kid. Two whiny little brats turning to an empowering evil to help them with their personal agendas.

This, I find plausible.

Also in the execution video, the sages speak of an "ancient tribe", which means just that: a tribe from long ago, erased from history as they were erased from the physical realm.

Hundreds of years after OoT is definitely history, and by the time TP occurs, the Gerudos are a few pages back in the book.

The Gerudo are missing from Twilight Princess, but not because they were banished. Without a male to procreate with, they are going to die out.

Now you're looking too far into this. Don't forget that Nabooru partook in Ganondorf's banishment at the end of OoT, so surely she wasn't expecting the race to die out. Besides, is every female going to mate with the single male every 100 years?

On top of that, TP takes place at least a century after OoT, which gives this small band of people plenty of time to assimilate into the rest of the people of Hyrule. In TP, the humanoid tribes have seemingly all merged, showing how under the banner of a unified kingdom, a century or so can effect how people view one another. Rather than living disparate lives, they've all come together.

I don't find this likely, honestly. It's far more likely to be a single clan, particularly the one that's always referred to as "thieves".

EDIT: Also, in Ganondorf's speech, he's definitely referring to the Twili. Note the word "void", not "kingdom" or "desert". Also, Ganondorf used the Twili to escape the Twilight Realm, so that's what he means by saying "their anguish was my nourishment".

EDIT 2: And by absolute power, he's referring to the Triforce, as opposed to the weaker magic of the Twili.