Legend of Zelda A Debate to the Past

[Spire]

Dude, you're missing the biggest part.

Ganondorf refers to the Twili as "your people". If he was banished along with the Gerudo during MM, then he would have sympathy for them because they would have been "his people". We know this: Ganondorf was banished to the Twilight Realm either during, or post-MM. Were the Twili already there? If so, then their ancestors had to have been banished before OoT, and since the Gerudo were present during OoT, that rules them out. If the Twili were not in the Twilight Realm when Ganondorf was banished there, then that's suggesting that the Gerudo were either banished there at the same time or after he was banished there, but given that scenario, he would have known that his people were those banished and would hold sympathy for them.

And again, for a race of women who birth one male every hundred years, how can they uphold a royal family? The Gerudo have not shown a sense of royalty in any of the games they've been present in.

 

[Masky]

And again, for a race of women who birth one male every hundred years, how can they uphold a royal family? The Gerudo have not shown a sense of royalty in any of the games they've been present in.

"Only one man is born every hundred years...Even though our laws say that lone male Gerudo must become King of the Gerudo, I'll never bow to such an evil man!" -Nabooru

 

[Phantom7]

Dude, you're missing the biggest part.

Ganondorf refers to the Twili as "your people". If he was banished along with the Gerudo during MM, then he would have sympathy for them because they would have been "his people". We know this: Ganondorf was banished to the Twilight Realm either during, or post-MM. Were the Twili already there? If so, then their ancestors had to have been banished before OoT, and since the Gerudo were present during OoT, that rules them out. If the Twili were not in the Twilight Realm when Ganondorf was banished there, then that's suggesting that the Gerudo were either banished there at the same time or after he was banished there, but given that scenario, he would have known that his people were those banished and would hold sympathy for them.

It's also possible that Ganondorf returned to Hyrule during pre-TP, was banished to the Twilight Realm at that time, and used the Twili to return to Hyrule again during mid-TP. Though this is only possible if Ganondorf was sealed in the Sacred Realm some time in the Child Timline, and the Twilight Realm is not the Sacred Realm.

But I actually find it more likely that Ganondorf led the Gerudo the conquer the Sacred Realm, but after receiving the Triforce of Power, he betrayed them. (In TP, it is stated that Ganondorf led a band of thieves in attempt to invade the Sacred Realm. This probably refers to the same event mentioned in the Dark Interlopers cutscene, and the Sacred Realm probably became the Twilight Realm once the Triforce was touched by Ganondorf's evil hands.) Realizing that the power of the gods was so powerful, he betrayed the Gerudo, (This is likely to be parallel to Ganondorf's betrayal of the Gerudo in OoT.) and during his speech, he refers to the power of the gods compared to the "petty magic" of the Gerudo. Also, since Ganondorf possessed the Triforce of Power, he appeared as a deity in the Twilight Realm, while the rest of them appeared as the Twili.

 

[Spire]

It's also possible that Ganondorf returned to Hyrule during pre-TP, was banished to the Twilight Realm at that time, and used the Twili to return to Hyrule again during mid-TP. Though this is only possible if Ganondorf was sealed in the Sacred Realm some time in the Child Timline, and the Twilight Realm is not the Sacred Realm.

But I actually find it more likely that Ganondorf led the Gerudo the conquer the Sacred Realm, but after receiving the Triforce of Power, he betrayed them. (In TP, it is stated that Ganondorf led a band of thieves in attempt to invade the Sacred Realm. This probably refers to the same event mentioned in the Dark Interlopers cutscene, and the Sacred Realm probably became the Twilight Realm once the Triforce was touched by Ganondorf's evil hands.) Realizing that the power of the gods was so powerful, he betrayed the Gerudo, (This is likely to be parallel to Ganondorf's betrayal of the Gerudo in OoT.) and during his speech, he refers to the power of the gods compared to the "petty magic" of the Gerudo. Also, since Ganondorf possessed the Triforce of Power, he appeared as a deity in the Twilight Realm, while the rest of them appeared as the Twili.

Assumptions assumptions.
a) There is absolutely nothing suggesting that Ganondorf returned to Hyrule twice.
b) There is absolutely nothing suggesting that the Twilight Realm is the Sacred Realm even though I want it to be.

The most plausible ways I can see this working out is as follows:
During or post Majora's Mask, Ganondorf leads the Gerudo to attack Hyrule in pursuit of the Sacred Realm and the Triforce, but fails because the Master Sword is still in place, therefore the doorway to the Sacred Realm is indefinitely closed. Ganondorf is sentenced to execution, but by that 'divine prank', he receives the Triforce of Power at the last second, kills the Water Sage and is banished into the Sacred Realm. With his evil power, he corrupts the realm into Twilight and so the Gerudo who are then banished there with him become the Twili.

Though this is quite a long stretch and really bends some hard facts presented by the game.

 

[Phantom7]

a) There is absolutely nothing suggesting that Ganondorf returned to Hyrule twice.

Well, it was just a theory I thought of, so I thought I'd say something about that. Although, admittedly, it's not that likely.

b) There is absolutely nothing suggesting that the Twilight Realm is the Sacred Realm even though I want it to be.

Remember the Sheikah legend that if one with an evil heart touches the Triforce the Sacred Realm becomes full of evil? I've always thought that that was what the Twilight Realm represents.

The most plausible ways I can see this working out is as follows:
During or post Majora's Mask, Ganondorf leads the Gerudo to attack Hyrule in pursuit of the Sacred Realm and the Triforce, but fails because the Master Sword is still in place, therefore the doorway to the Sacred Realm is indefinitely closed. Ganondorf is sentenced to execution, but by that 'divine prank', he receives the Triforce of Power at the last second, kills the Water Sage and is banished into the Sacred Realm. With his evil power, he corrupts the realm into Twilight and so the Gerudo who are then banished there with him become the Twili.

Though this is quite a long stretch and really bends some hard facts presented by the game.

Hmmm, that sort of sums up what I think happened. But the problem is that there is no cause for the 'divine prank' in which Ganondorf is given the Triforce of Power.

 

[Ganonsburg]

I think we agreed somewhat that the divine prank was caused by Ganon having the ToP on the other side of the timeline, which caused it to be owed to him on the other side.

 

[Masky]

The most plausible ways I can see this working out is as follows:
During or post Majora's Mask, Ganondorf leads the Gerudo to attack Hyrule in pursuit of the Sacred Realm and the Triforce, but fails because the Master Sword is still in place, therefore the doorway to the Sacred Realm is indefinitely closed. Ganondorf is sentenced to execution, but by that 'divine prank', he receives the Triforce of Power at the last second, kills the Water Sage and is banished into the Sacred Realm. With his evil power, he corrupts the realm into Twilight and so the Gerudo who are then banished there with him become the Twili.

Though this is quite a long stretch and really bends some hard facts presented by the game.

I always just assumed Ganon was executed because Link told Zelda to execute him after he travels back in time. That would seem to be the simplest explanation, since no one says anything about Ganon trying to attack Hyrule. Also, the Twili are definitely descendents the "ancient tribe", right? You already explained how the Twili can't be the Gerudo...

 

[Phantom7]

I always just assumed Ganon was executed because Link told Zelda to execute him after he travels back in time. That would seem to be the simplest explanation, since no one says anything about Ganon trying to attack Hyrule. Also, the Twili are definitely descendents the "ancient tribe", right? You already explained how the Twili can't be the Gerudo...

I think the Gerudo would be considered ancient by the time TP occurs. This is hundreds of years after OoT, not just 100 years.

EDIT: Actually, it's very likely that Ganondorf, leading the Gerudo, did, in fact, attempt to invade the Sacred Realm, and they are the Dark Interlopers.

EDIT 2: Okay, I think I've just figured out something extremely important. Ocarina Ending and Credits - Skip ahead to about 8:50. It appears that when Zelda warped Link back to the Child timeline, the Sacred Realm was left open with the Master Sword still there! Navi escapes through the back window, and Link exits the Temple of Time to go search for her. While Link is in Termina, Ganondorf and the Gerudo invade the Sacred Realm, causing it to become the Twilight Realm, and are eventually banished there, after the awakening of the Light Spirits.

 

[Spire]

Dude, even 1,000 years ago in our world isn't considered ancient by most standards.

@ your EDIT 2: There is no evidence suggesting the Sacred Realm is open in the CT. That blue light signifies Zelda warping Link back in time and with the Master Sword in the pedestal, it is most definitely CLOSED.

 

[Phantom7]

Dude, even 1,000 years ago in our world isn't considered ancient by most standards.

You're looking too deep into it, "ancient" doesn't necessarily mean thousands of years in Zelda. OoT is about as ancient as it gets in the Zelda series so far, besides SS (which doesn't apply here anyway).

@ your EDIT 2: There is no evidence suggesting the Sacred Realm is open in the CT. That blue light signifies Zelda warping Link back in time and with the Master Sword in the pedestal, it is most definitely CLOSED.

Ah, good point, only the Hero of Time can actually pull the Master Sword. However, it is still significant that the Door of Time was left open because that allows the Dark Interlopers (Ganondorf, accompanied by the Gerudos IMO) to attempt to pull the Master Sword and invade the Sacred Realm. But when the attempt fails, the Light Spirits banish the DI to the Twilight Realm (It seems as though since the Sacred Realm is closed, the Twilight Realm =/= Sacred Realm).

Could this also mean that the Temple of Time was moved to a hidden location in the Lost Woods where only the Hero chosen by the gods could reach it? And that is why the Temple of Time is in the Sacred Grove in TP?

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Could this also mean that the Temple of Time was moved to a hidden location in the Lost Woods where only the Hero chosen by the gods could reach it? And that is why the Temple of Time is in the Sacred Grove in TP?

Or the castle moved take your pick. (this would be a very annoying debate right here.)

 

[Spire]

The castle and town were never destroyed in the CT so why they would move is a complete mystery. It's also situated to the north of southern Hyrule Field which easily could be the field we played in OoT since it is the general shape of that Hyrule Field and has paths to the forest region, Kakariko/Death Mountain, and Lake Hylia. The path to the absent Gerudo Valley has either been erased or retconned as it seems Gerudo's Fortress was remade as the base of the Arbiter's Grounds.

The only logical thing to assume is that either the Temple of Time was moved or simply retconned to connect with ALttP.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

The castle and town were never destroyed in the CT so why they would move is a complete mystery. It's also situated to the north of southern Hyrule Field which easily could be the field we played in OoT since it is the general shape of that Hyrule Field and has paths to the forest region, Kakariko/Death Mountain, and Lake Hylia. The path to the absent Gerudo Valley has either been erased or retconned as it seems Gerudo's Fortress was remade as the base of the Arbiter's Grounds.

The only logical thing to assume is that either the Temple of Time was moved or simply retconned to connect with ALttP.

Ever sense I started to get into time line theory I have always presumed there is an unknown zelda game between TP and MM. Yes you are right, there is no evidence of castle town being destroyed but there also is no evidence of the triforce being separated on the start of the Oot Child time line, but we all know that it is separated in TP. I say the "which moved castle town or temple of time debate" is annoying because it can truly be argued both ways.

 

[Spire]

So let's clear this up...

In the CT, the Sacred Realm is either:
• intact as it has not been invaded by Ganondorf.
• corrupted into the Twilight Realm after Ganondorf was sealed within it with the Triforce of Power.

You know, I am starting to believe that the Gerudo were the ancestors. Because the Lanayru sequence described the Dark Interlopers so vaguely (only for Lanayru's story to be further fleshed out during the Sage sequence post-Arbiter's Grounds), it certainly seems like Ganondorf and the Gerudo (and perhaps any other followers he had) were the Dark Interlopers. It also helps explain why Ganondorf knew of the Fused Shadow and its potential as a weapon. Because the Dark World in ALttP is described as a land of endless twilight, and with TP being so incredibly similar to ALttP in almost every regard, the Twilight Realm certainly seems like the spiritual successor to the Dark World, so perhaps they are one in the same. After all, to travel between the two, Link must use a mirror and both transform him into an animal.

After all, a lot of ALttP's terminology has been retconned with later games, such as the "seven wise men" being changed to the "seven sages".

I am willing to believe that Ganondorf, the Gerudo, and any other followers of his were the Dark Interlopers. With the presence of snakes in both Gerudo and Twili architecture, this certainly seems plausible. On top of that, the Gerudo Fortress/Arbiter's Grounds have been completely abandoned by the tribe, and since you travel through the ruins before the Sage scene, this sequence of the game seems to be designed in such a manner to suggest that the Gerudo are absent because they were the ancient tribe. On top of that, the Gerudo are not mentioned in TP, so only prior knowledge of the tribe (from OoT) helps fill in the blank. In TP, we are only provided with "the ancient tribe", and since the Gerudo are entirely missing, it's heavily assumed that they were this tribe. Now, the Kokiri and Sheikah are almost entirely missing too, but that's besides the point.

 

[Ganonsburg]

And the fact that the Arbitor's Grounds is the house of the mirror that allows access to the TR/SR/DW, it may be that the Gerudo's Fortress was specifically used not only because it's hard to get to in almost every possible way but also in spite of the Gerudo.

Also, it may be that the Sages preferred killing Ganon to sending him with the Gerudo because they knew he would find his way back. But when he turned around and killed one of their own, they had to resort to sending him away. That, and they probably also saw him as too big of a threat anyway.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

I thought the twilight realm and the sacred realm are two different dimensions.

 

[Ganonsburg]

I thought the twilight realm and the sacred realm are two different dimensions.

Uh...try reading the last few posts? We're taking an educated guess that they might be the same. Read Spire's post.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

If Spire is correct that means in the CT Ganon was sealed twice not once, and that TP came before Alttp. Scene he killed his followers in the sealing war. I am just going to throw this out there what if TP comes later than what most of us theorize that would have an impact on how this debate results, would it not?

 

[Spire]

ALttP's backstory says that Ganondorf led a band of thieves into the Sacred Realm in pursuit of the Triforce. Out of his sheer greed, he murdered all of them and took the Triforce for himself. Using its power, he corrupted the Sacred Realm into his own world: the Dark World, but as a side effect, the power transformed him into the pig-beast Ganon. Using his new influence, he amassed an army of minions; greedy, treacherous, and wicked men who entered the Dark World were transformed into Moblins and served Ganon. He began an invasion on the Light World but the Knights of Hyrule and the Seven Sages fought him back. The Sages hoped a hero would rise and wield the Master Sword to vanquish Ganon, but to no avail did one come. Almost all of the Knights sacrificed their lives to stop Ganon, but not in vain as they had bided the Sages enough time to seal Ganon within the Dark World. In ALttP you play as Link, a descendent of one of the surviving knights (perhaps the only surviving knight) and you must slay Ganon once and for all.

Perhaps that knight who survived was the Hero's Shade, or as theorized, the Hero of Time. Perhaps OoT was not the Imprisoning War, but rather the Interloper War that we learn of in TP. Perhaps after MM, Link returns to Hyrule, becomes a knight, and rises to help defeat Ganondorf as he breaks into the Sacred Realm and steals the Triforce. In this battle, Link pushes Ganondorf into the Sacred Realm and with his might, corrupts it into the Twilight Realm. Perhaps after defeating Ganondorf in TP, his soul returns to the Twilight Realm (Sacred Realm/Dark World). Remember in TP, Ganon's true form (so to speak) was that of a giant, fiery head? That is his god form. Perhaps when he was defeated in TP, this form—his soul—was sent back into the Twilight Realm, which is why Midna shattered the mirror so he could never return to Hyrule. Just as he assumed a physical form in TP, so too could he later on in the future as the pig beast Ganon during the events of ALttP.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

actually that theory makes a lot of scene, however there are two things that bug me.
If ganon killed all of his followers how did the twili evolution take place if the guardo are dead?
The second one is not really important but what if Alttp ganon and TP ganon are different ganons?

 

[Spire]

actually that theory makes a lot of scene, however there are two things that bug me.
If ganon killed all of his followers how did the twili evolution take place if the guardo are dead?
The second one is not really important but what if Alttp ganon and TP ganon are different ganons?

Answer 1: Yeah I thought about that. I don't know how to explain this issue.
Answer 2: There actually may very well be two Ganons. We know two backstories: that explained in OoT/TP/WW, and the one explained in FSA. ALttP's Ganon may be either one of these. LoZ Ganon, who knows. OoX Ganon, who knows.

 

[LLDL]

I'm not even sure if Twilight ganon is a continuation of wind waker ganondorf and i dont think that that one is one in the same as the original ocarina of time ganondorf.

 

[Spire]

I'm not even sure if Twilight ganon is a continuation of wind waker ganondorf and i dont think that that one is one in the same as the original ocarina of time ganondorf.

TP and WW Ganon are the same as OoT Ganon. They exist in parallel timelines.

 

[Kingdom Come]

I really dislike how Nintendo is "forcing" a timeline now.

Er, that's what it seems like to me. At first it used to be just speculation, but now the last 2 home console Zelda's (WW n TP) had it jammed in there. WW pulled it off and I thought that's fine good game, good story just don't force the Timeline. Then comes TP a good game, not so good story, if this had nothing to do with OoT this would probably been a really good story. Same with WW.

 

[MattV1]

I really dislike how Nintendo is "forcing" a timeline now.

Er, that's what it seems like to me. At first it used to be just speculation, but now the last 2 home console Zelda's (WW n TP) had it jammed in there. WW pulled it off and I thought that's fine good game, good story just don't force the Timeline. Then comes TP a good game, not so good story, if this had nothing to do with OoT this would probably been a really good story. Same with WW.

I'm not angry so much at "forced timeline", moreso that they only seem capable of building off of Ocarina at this point. One direct sequel, two distant sequels, two sequels to one of the sequels, and games that were developed to be "before Ocarina" (FS, and by extension, TMC), and it looks like Skyward might be doing the same thing by building into Ocarina.

It's just bad to do, and believe or not, there are people out there who've never played Ocarina. A friend of mine at school said Twilight was his first Zelda, and some things got by him. It wasn't until I made him play Ocarina that he realize the significance of the Triforce marks and things like that.

 

[libertyernie]

Does FS reference OoT, and if sow, how? It seems like it would be more connected to LttP, but I've never played it, so I don't know.

 

[Spire]

Does FS reference OoT, and if sow, how? It seems like it would be more connected to LttP, but I've never played it, so I don't know.

FS in no way references OoT. FSA may if only by small connections like the presence of the Gerudo. During development of FSA, the Master Sword was to be included along with various other ALttP/OoT-like elements, but Miyamoto made sure the team changed them to fit with the FS lore, perhaps as a means of segregating the developing arc from past games. The end result was a suggestive prequel to ALttP and because we know OoT is also an ALttP precursor, FSA either takes place between the two or before OoT. Furthermore, since it's majorily agreed upon that ALttP takes place on the CT after TP, then FSA may occur either between MM and TP or between TP and ALttP. So we have:

• SS → TMC → FS/FSA → OoT/MM → TP → ALttP
• SS → TMC → OoT/MM → FS/FSA → TP → ALttP
• SS → TMC → OoT/MM → TP → FS/FSA → ALttP

This excludes the Adult Timeline entirely for conserving space.

 

[firelord767]

I know this is a little bit out there, but what if ALttP and TP existed in two separate timelines? I mean, remember the Deku Tree's Succession? The short little Korok dudes planted trees for millions of years while link ran away and met that ocean king and did stuff with some train and all that, Hyrule dried up. Link was reincarnated there and then the seal on the Four Sword broke in both timelines, making Four Swords happen in TP's timeline and FSA happen on the other end. Then AlTTP happened a few years, maybe hundreds, after FSA. Note how Gerudo thieves are present in FSA.

Though this is PROBABLY wrong.

 

[libertyernie]

I still find it funny that TP is in the "child timeline" and WW in the "adult timeline." It's like how the Toronto Blue Jays are in the "American League."

 

[Spire]

I still find it funny that TP is in the "child timeline" and WW in the "adult timeline." It's like how the Toronto Blue Jays are in the "American League."

lol awesome comparison.

Yeah, I've always found this peculiar. Then again, the fans are the ones who dub them as "child" and "adult" timelines. When I was first getting into timeline discussion back in early '08, I thought they were reversed for this exact reason. Also, up until I learned about TP's actual placement (and it being parallel to WW), I thought that WW's intro describing the hero "being absent from Hyrule" was because he had traveled to Termina. Anyways, back to the discussion at hand...

 

[ZIO]

It's interesting how all these wars and battles that are explained to you as some sort of tale, could really have been just a simple Link v Ganon taken so far out of context, as legends tend to do.

 

[MattV1]

The reason for the names "Child" and "Adult" timelines are simply because of the endings they follow. TWW follows the results of the "Adult Link's" timeline, with him killing Ganon and all that stuff. MM and TP follow from "Child Link" after he went back in time and closed the Door of Time, preventing Adult Link's future from happening.

 

[painlord k11]

i dont play much link games and iv never beat any of them accept 4 swords 2 times in 1 player and im beating it with a friend in co op which is awsome fun. 4 swords is probably the easyiest link game. I'v also played zelda 1, link to the past and orcarina of time but never beated them lol.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

So did we ever come to a full conclusion (or near) about who the twili are? Forgive me on asking such a stupid question, but I have been a way for the past month on vaction,with no internet.

 

[Masky]

So did we ever come to a full conclusion (or near) about who the twili are? Forgive me on asking such a stupid question, but I have been a way for the past month on vaction,with no internet.

they're the descendents of the Dark Interlopers who (long ago) were sealed in the Twilight Dimension by the Godesses

 

[Phantom7]

So did we ever come to a full conclusion (or near) about who the twili are? Forgive me on asking such a stupid question, but I have been a way for the past month on vaction,with no internet.

To be more specific, it's pretty much agreed that the Twili were once the Gerudos, who, along with Ganondorf, once attempted to invade the Sacred Realm. As punishment, they were banished to the antithesis of Hyrule, the Twilight Realm.

 

[Spire]

Now wait a minute, did I not provide enough evidence to suggest that they aren't Gerudo, rather a tribe predating OoT?

 

[Phantom7]

Now wait a minute, did I not provide enough evidence to suggest that they aren't Gerudo, rather a tribe predating OoT?

And where exactly is this evidence? You said yourself that the order in which the player is introduced to the story of the Interlopers in TP suggests that the Gerudo is the banished tribe.

If the Twili is a tribe predating OoT, then what, exactly, happened to the Gerudo?

 

[Spire]

Hmm, I reread everything. I'm going to hold my breath until SS comes out. If it fails to provide another race for which the Twili could be descendents of, then the Gerudo it is.

 

[Phantom7]

Hmm, I reread everything. I'm going to hold my breath until SS comes out. If it fails to provide another race for which the Twili could be descendents of, then the Gerudo it is.

I agree with this. Just keep in mind, I'm not saying that there can't possibly be another race that the Twili could have been, but to me it makes the most sense that the Gerudo became the Twili.