Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[MERPIS]

i'm assuming you havent played much marvel becuase that's just not true. she's way too fair to be a marvel character. snake,mk, and ic in brawl are all marvel characters elite marvel characters dont have holes at any range.

any news on when the tier list will be updated?

Oh no she isn't.

EDIT: Get Zero out of here

 

[Skeeter Mania]

When comparing Luigi and Mario, you should always talk about Luigi's FAir.

Besides combos, it's really not that great.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Besides combos, it's really not that great.

care to explain?

 

[TDK]

I wouldn't bother with him. He does nothing but troll/make salt posts.

 

[MERPIS]

Besides combos, it's really not that great.

he's talking about you

 

[Yonder]

Besides combos, it's really not that great.

What do you want Luigi's fair to do? Kill? Spike? Make you a sandwich? It does it's purpose by damage racking, which is what Luigi's main pull is. Just watching Elegant with Luigi shows that Luigi is probably the best damage racker in the game along with Bayo and Sonic. It's crazy.

 

[The-Technique]

Gonna study the ish out of Leo's sets, the way he takes apart Bayonetta with Marth is simply a work of art.

 

[Yonder]

Gonna study the ish out of Leo's sets, the way he takes apart Bayonetta with Marth is simply a work of art.

I'd watch his MK vs Diddy too. Both his winning sets vs Zero involved his MK literally eating the monkey's brain with how one sided it has been.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

What do you want Luigi's fair to do? Kill? Spike? Make you a sandwich? It does it's purpose by damage racking, which is what Luigi's main pull is. Just watching Elegant with Luigi shows that Luigi is probably the best damage racker in the game along with Bayo and Sonic. It's crazy.

The damage per hit on the move is a measly 8%, the lowest of Luigi's aerials.

I wouldn't bother with him. He does nothing but troll/make salt posts.

Gee, thanks, m8.

 

[Deleted member]

Luigi actually has a good match up against Fox, which I believe. An explanation would be nice.

 

[TDK]

2GG Championship Finale (20 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: MKLeo
2nd: ZeRo
3rd: Salem
4th: Dabuz
5th: Elegant
5th: KEN
7th: VoiD
7th: Abadango

9th: Nairo
9th: Ally
11th: T
11th: Samsora
11th: Captain Zack
11th: Komorikiri
11th: WaDi
11th: Tweek
11th: Shuton
11th: Kirihara
11th: Larry Lurr
11th: Fatality

 

[Yonder]

The damage per hit on the move is a measly 8%, the lowest of Luigi's aerials.



Gee, thanks, m8.

It also chains the best of all his aerials, Elegant regularly gets 3 in a row, taking the opponent off stage. You're guaranteed 2 out of a d throw at early percents. It's a chaining move, not a standalone. Basically all of Luigi's moves can chain into other ones...hard to think of a move used by him just by itself. F smash and b/f throw are the only ones I can think of that don't really have follow-ups

 

[The-Technique]

The damage per hit on the move is a measly 8%, the lowest of Luigi's aerials.

Yeah what a crummy move, imagine having a fast rising aerial that autocancels almost instantly and only combos into itself and other moves, must suck being characters like Sheik and Diddy.

 

[ARGHETH]

And Side B cost Zero the victory...again.

 

[The-Technique]

And Side B cost Zero the victory...again.

I would say his nerves cost him the victory, and the fact that Leo fell out of Zero's game-winning up smash. Leo himself stated he was very lucky that he fell out of that move and was able to correctly guess Zero's air dodge at the most pivotal moment.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

It also chains the best of all his aerials, Elegant regularly gets 3 in a row, taking the opponent off stage. You're guaranteed 2 out of a d throw at early percents. It's a chaining move, not a standalone. Basically all of Luigi's moves can chain into other ones...hard to think of a move used by him just by itself. F smash and b/f throw are the only ones I can think of that don't really have follow-ups

Reread my first comment, m8.

 

[Deleted member]

Is anyone going to talk about Meta Knight? I mean dash attack - up air - up b is a very good stock sealer. Rage can make it kill at even low percents depending on the stage. No wonder MKLeo likes to use dash attack when it comes to Meta Knight. ( MKLeo killed Mr. R at 42% with the follow up one time! ) MKLeo's Meta Knight is fun to watch in my personal opinion.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

This tournament re ignited my hope in this games future thanks to amazing players like ZeRo, MKleo, and Elegant. Thank you 2GG for providing a great end of the year finale, and may this game prosper.

Also 4 man rr pools is a horrible format please change that

 

[MercuryPenny]

the only thing meta knight doesn't have is a top-level solomain.

if that ever changes, then meta knight could potentially end up bottom of top tier, at least in my opinion.

 

[Heracr055]

I won't lie: I'm a little bit disappointed with Salem's placement. He got worked super hard in his set vs Leo. My investment in the tourney dropped off after his elimination.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I won't lie: I'm a little bit disappointed with Salem's placement. He got worked super hard in his set vs Leo. My investment in the tourney dropped off after his elimination.

I can honestly say that you are the only one to feel this way.

 

[Goombo]

Completely excluding the facts that Leo is a super likable and respectful guy and that his Marth is the most beautiful thing that ever happened to Smash 4.


I'm just thankful for every tournament that he wins because at some point top players have to start thinking that actually using perfect pivots in play might be a good idea.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Leo never got taken off the top and lived to 200%, he punished Salem for regrabbing the ledge, he punished Bayo's landing lag, he punished bad airdodges, and he attempted to edgeguard her and keep her at the ledge.
Instead of playing as safe as possible and dying at 30 from one rage punish, he pressured her at mid range and never gave her the chance to make any big punishes
It looked unnatural watching him shut her down when she gives other top players so much trouble, hopefully people start to emulate his playstyle

 

[|RK|]

Leo never got taken off the top and lived to 200%, he punished Salem for regrabbing the ledge, he punished Bayo's landing lag, he punished bad airdodges, and he attempted to edgeguard her and keep her at the ledge.
Instead of playing as safe as possible and dying at 30 from one rage punish, he pressured her at mid range and never gave her the chance to make any big punishes
It looked unnatural watching him shut her down when she gives other top players so much trouble, hopefully people start to emulate his playstyle

Big thing people miss is that Bayo shouldn't be killing early often. Can she deal damage? Sure, but she should be killing at fair percents, which is the more important thing.

 

[Bigbomb2]

2GG Championship Finale (20 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: MKLeo
2nd: ZeRo
3rd: Salem
4th: Dabuz
5th: Elegant
5th: KEN
7th: VoiD
7th: Abadango

9th: Nairo
9th: Ally
11th: T
11th: Samsora
11th: Captain Zack
11th: Komorikiri
11th: WaDi
11th: Tweek
11th: Shuton
11th: Kirihara
11th: Larry Lurr
11th: Fatality

At the end of the day, the championship had some overall nice character diversity. I'm most looking forward to how T and Elegant further improve next year. T's gameplay saw a much more patient approach finally and Elegant already went from one of the best Luigi's to THE best Luigi and easy top 20 player. Hype tournament

 

[Browny]

Sheik is as close as we have to broken without real, tangible weaknesses

If only Sheik had some sort of weakness we could determine, some number that we could apply to a certain trait of hers, perhaps we could actually come up with a reason why Sheik has only had 1 really good result in over an entire year...

It turns out that when the win condition for this game is to KO your opponent, being bad KO'ing keeps you out of top-tier results.

 

[|RK|]

If only Sheik had some sort of weakness we could determine, some number that we could apply to a certain trait of hers, perhaps we could actually come up with a reason why Sheik has only had 1 really good result in over an entire year...

It turns out that when the win condition for this game is to KO your opponent, being bad KO'ing keeps you out of top-tier results.

Sheik would be broken if the metagame were Stamina mode. As it stands, while her strengths would be amazing in a traditional fighting game, they aren't so great when you need knockback to kill. As you said.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Don't forget Sheik's very fragile she needs her speed and oppressive neutral and advantage at the trade off of sometimes struggling really hard to get a kill and being easy to kill her self.

 

[Tizio Random]

So, after yesterday's tournament, what's the opinion of the vs match up? Leo dominated Salem and Marth seems incredibly consistent against Bayo: consistent follow-ups, can edgeguard her with counter and well-timed fairs and tipper kills can reliably punish her landings. I can possibly see Marth (and Lucina) as her only bad match ups.

Also, nice character diversity, Meta Knight and the Luigi especially, I think these characters have cemented their high tier placings by now.

 

[Das Koopa]

My impression is that characters that can punish landings with really hard combo sequences have a decent edge vs. Bayo. Leo has been successful with a number of characters that have heavily disjointed upairs and really hard punishes on whiffed air dodges/witch times.

Combine it with Leo being really proactive (giving Salem as little room as possible without falling into WT much) and it just looks like a recipe for success. Probably a combination of juggling + playstyle + basics of fighting Bayo (good SDI/DI/not throwing out too many attacks/etc)

 

[NotLiquid]

I think it might lean slight advantage toward Marth but it's a matchup they're both forced to play patiently since they both capitalize on hard punishes, particularly when either character is above the other - plus it's worth remembering that MKLeo quickly backtracked on counterpicking Marth against Aba, and I don't think all those Witch Times was the sole reason. I'm tempted to speculate this is a match up that might be better for Lucina to be honest, mainly because Witch Twist is Bayonetta's best burst option which she wants to be up close for, and that by proxy has the benefit of denying Marth a tipper. An errant hit with Lucina is much more of an overall risk for Bayonetta to deal with.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Bayonetta vs. Marth is a matchup I've always been saying it's even. However, please don't forget this MU is also a bit of a pain in the ass for the Marcina player as well, since you're going to have to be way more careful with how you use your moves and use way more movement baits and grabs instead to get around some of her stuff.
Marcina are good at catching landings so that's a huge plus they have in the MU. We also juggle Bayo very well while killing her extremely early, and she's especially susceptible to fall for most of our combos and KO confirms. Too bad literally every single thing I listed goes for Bayo as well. Marcina is easy to keep in the air and Marcina is easy to be caught in landings. Marcina gets juggled very easily and they're rather susceptible for falling for some of Bayo's shenanigans because of their physics and they can die early. I'm surprised Salem was never getting big damage going on Leo; sure his SDI was great but it wasn't just SDI. A lot of times he'd just straight up flub or miss the combo, like throwing a move the wrong way entirely.
Also, frankly, like I said earlier, looking at his match against Komo where he used Cloud in this MU, frankly if he really wanted he could use Cloud in this MU for just as good effect if not better. So if Marcina somehow beats Bayo (which I believe they don't) they Cloud should too.

 

[PK Bash]

If we're looking at this matchup then we should also remember Aba taking that game off MKLeo's Marth too. I'm kind of curious to see what people think about that. I wonder what exactly was going on there. Was Leo playing the matchup worse that game or was Aba playing it better than Salem? Maybe a bit of both? And how much of it was player vs player? Would Leo have stayed on Marth if that was game 1? It's a very interesting anomalous result for Leo in this matchup and it's worth remembering it happened.

 

[|RK|]

That's 3 different characters Leo uses to success against Bayo, for the record. Corrin, Cloud, and Marth. And it seems like whenever an opponent is prepared for one, he pulls out the other.

It makes it hard to determine MU ratios, but I think it makes Bayo's weaker points more obvious. Any character that doesn't care about her range does better against her in the neutral. Any character that punishes hard gets another point. Good grab game, yet another point.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why ZSS vs Bayo succckkkssss

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

Yeah, I'm starting to feel like it's not a coincidence, sword characters (Marcina/Cloud/Corrin in particular) all do decent vs Bayonetta because they all have a lot of things in common that work well vs her. I think Marth was a fine pick tbh (might have been even more convincing if Leo walked more lol).

First, having anything grounded that out spaces or can challenge Bayonetta's one safe good grounded option in d-tilt is nice to have. Disjoints in general work because they can both out-space her d-tilt and, more often than not, they have an option for good anti-airing (which is important to have vs Bayo; especially w/ her high short hop) and can actually challenge her big hitboxes.

Second, a lot of the sword characters have decent grab games and Marth even has a kill throw. They can shark platforms to dissuade Bayo from platform camping, and the sword/counter can also challenge Bayonetta offstage to edge-guard which is a feat not too many characters are able to do well.

And finally, they all have good ledge trapping. Bayo's like to retreat to the ledge a lot to not have to deal w/ lag after burning specials, but if she traps herself there vs characters good in that situation, it can be rough.

I feel like Marth might even do the best out of all 3 tbh. Cloud can get carried to the edge by regular Bayonetta combos and gimped, his grab game isn't as potent either. Corrin also lacking in ground-game with her tilts being unsafe, and pin while good, can sacrifice stage control and can be risky vs Bayonetta.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The reason they do well vs her is quite clear. Button vs button she loses clean. So now she can't just throw out those really solid buttons. She can't swap hands in neutral anymore, like vs many other characters. They all excel at trapping landings and make her edge play somewhat of a liability. It all really starts with the fact that she loses the close range battle.

 

[MH-Jin]

Bayonetta vs. Marth is a matchup I've always been saying it's even. However, please don't forget this MU is also a bit of a pain in the *** for the Marcina player as well, since you're going to have to be way more careful with how you use your moves and use way more movement baits and grabs instead to get around some of her stuff.
Marcina are good at catching landings so that's a huge plus they have in the MU. We also juggle Bayo very well while killing her extremely early, and she's especially susceptible to fall for most of our combos and KO confirms. Too bad literally every single thing I listed goes for Bayo as well. Marcina is easy to keep in the air and Marcina is easy to be caught in landings. Marcina gets juggled very easily and they're rather susceptible for falling for some of Bayo's shenanigans because of their physics and they can die early. I'm surprised Salem was never getting big damage going on Leo; sure his SDI was great but it wasn't just SDI. A lot of times he'd just straight up flub or miss the combo, like throwing a move the wrong way entirely.
Also, frankly, like I said earlier, looking at his match against Komo where he used Cloud in this MU, frankly if he really wanted he could use Cloud in this MU for just as good effect if not better. So if Marcina somehow beats Bayo (which I believe they don't) they Cloud should too.

The thing with Cloud though is he can get easily edgeguarded/gimped by Bayo. Marcina isway less susceptible to that with their way safer recovery. Plus they have a way better ground game with their walk, jab and tilts along with an upb combo breaker (though situational).

Edgeguarding we've seen Marcinas edgeguard Bayo using counter and being able to outrange bayo's hitboxes with their aerials.

It's probably at max slight advantage for Marcina since they don't have the best disadvantage state, lack of landing options and being able to get juggled easily

If we're looking at this matchup then we should also remember Aba taking that game off MKLeo's Marth too. I'm kind of curious to see what people think about that. I wonder what exactly was going on there. Was Leo playing the matchup worse that game or was Aba playing it better than Salem? Maybe a bit of both? And how much of it was player vs player? Would Leo have stayed on Marth if that was game 1? It's a very interesting anomalous result for Leo in this matchup and it's worth remembering it happened.

Abadango did use a lot of witch timing and did a lot more shorter/simpler combos. He even tweeted stating that he knew leo is a better player and that he'd have to use more witch time to be able to win against him. So it's more playing against the player rather than the character.
https://twitter.com/LG_Abadango/status/937558732011053056

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I think seeing what makes Marth and the sword characters do so well against bayo, and seeing how Leo won against Salem should give us an idea on how we should play against bayos, instead of just thinking it's just exclusive to those characters entirely.

"But it is only due to the specific attributes of the sword characters that allow them to go head to head with bayo (disjoints to catch landings and beat her Button to button)!"

"ZSS doesn't have the accessible grab game to punish her, nor the range to beat her button!"

"Mario and X character are too slow to punish her landings!"

Yes yes yes, you obviously can't do exactly what sword characters do, but you can orientate your play style to mimic certain things about them to make the MU easier. For example, Zard is fat and is a combo Big Mac for bayo. But, he does have surprisingly running speed with an intangible UTilt and Usmash (insert obvious anti-air). He also has a good grab game to punish her with. Flamethrower is disjointed, so can be used for ledge trapping. Beating Dtilt will be vastly more tricky however.

Mario is too slow to consistently catch her landings, but Usmash tho, grab game tho, and well-spaced and timed Bairs tho to beat her buttons. Instead of being Mario and rushing her down for the grabs, play more like Marth and space her out with Bairs and fireballs here and there. Play a little more passive.

ZSS can beat out bayo's aerials with Zair and anti air her with Utilts if I'm not mistaken (won't talk much about her, don't know ZSS like that ‍)

I may be repeating what's been said, and you all thought of this to improve your games and whatnot, but for those that don't think of relativity and play style elasticity, try this out. Play more like Marth with your bowser or whoever.

Somebody let me know if I'm not saying anything new.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

It is also the fact where Salems more neutral focused and passive approach to playing Bayo can come back to bite him. Bayo cannot win vs Marcina that way, so it likey better to just go ham in the MU try to be the agressor and try to abuse the more jank things about Bayo such as WT like how Aba did vs MKLeo's Marth

I think is a similar reaaon why Salem has failed to win vs Dabuz until recently and almost lost Kirahara too. Rosa also has the buttons to beat Bayo in neutral like Marcina does

 

[Deleted member]

Judging from the posts, is Bayonetta's overall gamestyle getting slightly worse? She is the best character in the game still.