Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[my_T]

People please stop being so lazy/bad at interpreting results.

Mario is NOT doing well results wise. He has FOUR top level reps in Ally, ANTi, Zenyou, and Ron. Obviously he's going to have good results when you combine all the good placements among all four players.

Look at their results individually from the beginning of the year up until now and you will see that Ron is the only one that consistently place top 8/16, but his attendance is also very low so make of that what you will. Ally, ANTi, and Zenyous' results have been very inconsistent all year. On top of that Ron and ANTi use secondaries at pretty much every tournament they go to and have been doing so long before secondaries were common place in the meta.

Links to each individual players results:

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Ally

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Zenyou

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:ANTi

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Ron

With all of Ally, Zenyou, and ANTis' inconsistency, lets not forget what the common denominator here is...Mario

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Mario is NOT doing well results wise. He has FOUR top level reps in Ally, ANTi, Zenyou, and Ron. Obviously he's going to have good results when you combine all the good placements among all four players.

First off: your opinion, m8.

Second: 4 top level reps is honestly pretty good. This can help with the character's overall representation. Better than what characters like Fox can claim for.

Third: At least two of those players have won at least one large event this year (Ally: Greninja Saga, ANTi: GOML), whereas with Fox, Larry's only won Dreamhack Montreal.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

First off: your opinion, m8.

Second: 4 top level reps is honestly pretty good. This can help with the character's overall representation. Better than what characters like Fox can claim for.

Third: At least two of those players have won at least one large event this year (Ally: Greninja Saga, ANTi: GOML), whereas with Fox, Larry's only won Dreamhack Montreal.

Go look at the definition of an opinion
This is not an opinion. For how many top level reps Mario has and how good they are as players, Mario is not doing good.

Fox constantly places higher than Mario with only 2 notable reps, Larry is constantly in top 3 at just about every tournament he plays

Marth has also won a few notable events, does that mean he hasn't been doing well lately?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Go look at the definition of an opinion
This is not an opinion. For how many top level reps Mario has and how good they are as players, Mario is not doing good.

Fox constantly places higher than Mario with only 2 notable reps, Larry is constantly in top 3 at just about every tournament he plays

Marth has also won a few notable events, does that mean he hasn't been doing well lately?

Wow, you must have an incredibly rough definition of "doing well".

I honestly think he's doing just fine, and nothing you say will change my opinion.

Now why don't you just back off or come at me?!

 

[Nah]

I honestly think he's doing just fine, and nothing you say will change my opinion.

Now why don't you just back off or come at me?!

absolutely lovely way to engage in discussion right here

 

[Skeeter Mania]

absolutely lovely way to engage in discussion right here

Hey, don't take it too hard.

I'm just a bit feisty, that's all.

 

[Rizen]

According to Das Koopa's current scores, updated 9/25, Mario's doing alright.
Diddy Kong: 113.25
Bayonetta: 102.5
Cloud: 88
Sheik: 86
Fox: 85.25
Sonic: 83
Mario: 69.75
Rosalina & Luma: 42
Mewtwo: 39
Captain Falcon: 37.5
Zero Suit Samus: 36

Fox and Sonic are creating a gap though. I can't see Mario falling out of top tier but he's on the lower end. My thoughts on Mario.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think everyone here can develop a better counter-argument than "it's your opinion"

Nearly everything posted here is an opinion. Tell me something I don't know.

 

[Das Koopa]

I think it's fair to point out that Mario has a pretty low number of reps (or at least below average) compared to most top/high tier characters.

Fox constantly places higher than Mario with only 2 notable reps

Larry Lurr
NAKAT
Charliedaking
Light

honestly if we're lowering this to just "notable" then the number gets pretty significant, Fox is a very common character

Larry is constantly in top 3 at just about every tournament he plays

8-14 on this (8 in top 3 at super regionals/major, 14 not)

He's nowhere that consistent

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

|RK| How has playing void at big house changed your thoughts on the Kirby shiek matchup? Nice job taking a game off void btw!

 

[|RK|]

|RK| How has playing void at big house changed your thoughts on the Kirby shiek matchup? Nice job taking a game off void btw!

Lmao, thanks. Feel kinda bad, since I don't think I did anything *that* special, yet.

In either case, I feel like even w/ needles, slight disadvantage without covers it. In game 2, VoiD did the smartest thing - I banned triplats, so he picked SV and just... sat on the platform.

No reason to approach, as Kirby honestly can't do too much about it.

Game 3, he was reading my spacing, and had an excellent edgeguard (Final Cutter is legit trash, never forget), but it wasn't anything that Sheik the character did that was overpowering.

I don't have too much to add otherwise, tbh - the MU is fine. VoiD is godlike. So on lol

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Why do we think notable players are the only mains of said characters? I forgot, does Das Koopa's rankings count pools players?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Why do we think notable players are the only mains of said characters? I forgot, does Das Koopa's rankings count pools players?

Only those that end up placing high.

Category 1 = Top 4 counted (1-4 Points)
Category 2 = Top 8 counted (1-6 Points)
Category 3 = Top 16 counted (1-8 Points)
Category 4 = Top 32 Counted (3-12 Points)
Category 5 = Top 64 Counted (5-16 Points)

 

[TDK]

So, I've been keeping track of how many times each character has made top 8 in doubles majors. Here's my results so far:

Spoiler

Cloud tier: (209)
~~~~~~~120-point gap~~~~~~~
A Tier (80-89): (89) (88)
B Tier: (70-79): (78) (70)
~~~~~~~30-point gap~~~~~~~~
D Tier (30-39): (39) (38) (35) (34) (32) (31)
E Tier (20-29): (29) (28) (27) (26) (24) (23) (22)
F Tier (10-19): (19) (14) (13) (11) (10)
G Tier (1-9): (9) (8) (6) (5) (4) (3) (2) (1)

The following characters have not placed top 8 at any doubles major:

So doubles is really centralized. Mostly around Cloud, but four other characters also have significantly more points than any other. What do you guys think?

 

[|RK|]

So, I've been keeping track of how many times each character has made top 8 in doubles majors. Here's my results so far:

Spoiler

Cloud tier: (209)
~~~~~~~120-point gap~~~~~~~
A Tier (80-89): (89) (88)
B Tier: (70-79): (78) (70)
~~~~~~~30-point gap~~~~~~~~
D Tier (30-39): (39) (38) (35) (34) (32) (31)
E Tier (20-29): (29) (28) (27) (26) (24) (23) (22)
F Tier (10-19): (19) (14) (13) (11) (10)
G Tier (1-9): (9) (8) (6) (5) (4) (3) (2) (1)

The following characters have not placed top 8 at any doubles major:

So doubles is really centralized. Mostly around Cloud, but four other characters also have significantly more points than any other. What do you guys think?

Well, NAKAT just used Jiggs in his match against Tweek & ANTi (offstream)... And they won that game

 

[Yonder]

So, I've been keeping track of how many times each character has made top 8 in doubles majors. Here's my results so far:

Spoiler

Cloud tier: (209)
~~~~~~~120-point gap~~~~~~~
A Tier (80-89): (89) (88)
B Tier: (70-79): (78) (70)
~~~~~~~30-point gap~~~~~~~~
D Tier (30-39): (39) (38) (35) (34) (32) (31)
E Tier (20-29): (29) (28) (27) (26) (24) (23) (22)
F Tier (10-19): (19) (14) (13) (11) (10)
G Tier (1-9): (9) (8) (6) (5) (4) (3) (2) (1)

The following characters have not placed top 8 at any doubles major:

So doubles is really centralized. Mostly around Cloud, but four other characters also have significantly more points than any other. What do you guys think?

Interesting how far Mewtwo drops compared to all the other top tiers in doubles. People really don't want to risk his weight in that environment I guess. And his 1 on 1 strings plus footstool combo are way less effective.

Compared to Bayo who barely has a lead on the others in singles (and i think Diddy has dethroned her a few times recently there), Cloud is more than doubling everyone's performance. That does warrent some kind of clause, all the evidence lines up. I don't care what it is, but it needs to be acknowledged and discussed how dominant Cloud is in doubles.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

it needs to be acknowledged and discussed how dominant Cloud is in singles.

You mean "doubles", right?

 

[LordShade67]

Interesting how far Mewtwo drops compared to all the other top tiers in doubles. People really don't want to risk his weight in that environment I guess. And his 1 on 1 strings plus footstool combo are way less effective.

Another part of it is the fact that he's tall.Tall frame + second lightest in the game is a pretty bad combo. I don't know how WaDi does it...

 

[Yonder]

You mean "doubles", right?

Yes...doubles...*shifty eyes*

Joking, yeah doubles. Thanks for catching that.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Cloud isn't just dominant in doubles, according to the results put up he's almost centralized the doubles game to such an extent that the only way to beat him in a doubles format is to pick cloud yourself (in a general sense), we once put up a forum post asking whether double cloud should be banned with a poll to boot. Instead of going with only one Cloud per team the majority of voters said we should just ban Cloud in doubles outright.
I can see why too, an overcentralizing character limits if not outright blocks character diversity which actually is a fairly big deal in sm4sh, I mean we see a ton of characters make top 8 in locals, regionals, and super majors in singles. Is there as much of a character diversity in doubles?

 

[RonNewcomb]

So, I've been keeping track of how many times each character has made top 8 in doubles majors. Here's my results so far:

Spoiler

Cloud tier: (209)
~~~~~~~120-point gap~~~~~~~
A Tier (80-89): (89) (88)
B Tier: (70-79): (78) (70)
~~~~~~~30-point gap~~~~~~~~
D Tier (30-39): (39) (38) (35) (34) (32) (31)
E Tier (20-29): (29) (28) (27) (26) (24) (23) (22)
F Tier (10-19): (19) (14) (13) (11) (10)
G Tier (1-9): (9) (8) (6) (5) (4) (3) (2) (1)

The following characters have not placed top 8 at any doubles major:

So doubles is really centralized. Mostly around Cloud, but four other characters also have significantly more points than any other. What do you guys think?

IMHO, just ban him completely in doubles. If he were rare in singles it would be different, but he has plenty of exposure there so he certainly won't be missed.

 

[Lord Dio]

Reminder that we have a thread dedicated to doubles Cloud discussion (that could use some activity :D )

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Yeah mewtwo definitely suffers in doubles his tall wide frame and feather weight makes friendly fire that more dangerous, he needs space to operate and you have too much going on in doubles. Shadow Ball is less threatening since you have to watch for your teammates and he doesn't have the best set of combo throws (FThrow's shadow balls get in the way, Dthrow works but requires you to be close to your teammates, His strength is definitely in singles

 

[R3D3MON]

So, I've been keeping track of how many times each character has made top 8 in doubles majors. Here's my results so far:

Spoiler

Cloud tier: (209)
~~~~~~~120-point gap~~~~~~~
A Tier (80-89): (89) (88)
B Tier: (70-79): (78) (70)
~~~~~~~30-point gap~~~~~~~~
D Tier (30-39): (39) (38) (35) (34) (32) (31)
E Tier (20-29): (29) (28) (27) (26) (24) (23) (22)
F Tier (10-19): (19) (14) (13) (11) (10)
G Tier (1-9): (9) (8) (6) (5) (4) (3) (2) (1)

The following characters have not placed top 8 at any doubles major:

So doubles is really centralized. Mostly around Cloud, but four other characters also have significantly more points than any other. What do you guys think?

Nothing really wrong with a centralized meta. Do people actually know what the word "meta" means??

 

[FeelMeUp]

Nothing really wrong with a centralized meta. Do people actually know what the word "meta" means??

there is absolutely something wrong with our current state of OVERcentralization

 

[Myollnir]

Bayonetta's F-air1 string on Fox isn't escapable. When you see people "SDIing", it's the Bayo player either getting the wrong F-air1 hitbox or just missing by doing F-air2. Or just wrong %.
That death combo allows her to do well at the match-up (slight win), otherwise Fox would win that, he's pretty good against Bayonetta, especially in juggle situations where he can abuse BW really hard.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Just going to post this here since it’s a huge upset and it’s already in the tournament thread.

Cosmos3-0 ZeRo

 

[Frihetsanka]

Just going to post this here since it’s a huge upset and it’s already in the tournament thread.

Cosmos3-0 ZeRo

ZeRo's most recent tier list put Corrin in #27 (actually #29 since he put Lucina/Marth and Donkey Kong/Bowser together). Will she be top 20 next time, I wonder?

The #13 placement in the official tier list is starting to look more and more realistic.

 

[Rizen]

Corrin's good. I remember in CEO MKLeo's Cloud lost to Salem's Bayo so Leo went Corrin and beat him. Then Leo might have beaten ZeRo with Corrin if not for an SD in GFs.

What MUs does Corrin lose?

 

[ARGHETH]

Corrin's good. I remember in CEO MKLeo's Cloud lost to Salem's Bayo so Leo went Corrin and beat him. Then Leo might have beaten ZeRo with Corrin if not for an SD in GFs.

What MUs does Corrin lose?

Cloud, Sheik, Fox, and Diddy, mainly. They're losing but not unwinnable, though, which is why stuff like this happens. They lose other MUs, but they're not as notable.

 

[Nah]

Just going to post this here since it’s a huge upset and it’s already in the tournament thread.

Cosmos3-0 ZeRo

Whoa....really? Do they have this set uploaded for us to watch (and if so please provide link), or do we need to wait a bit?

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Whoa....really? Do they have this set uploaded for us to watch (and if so please provide link), or do we need to wait a bit?

https://youtu.be/7zTEUWPt4qo

 

[Game7a1]

Whoa....really? Do they have this set uploaded for us to watch (and if so please provide link), or do we need to wait a bit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zTEUWPt4qo
Here you go.
EDIT: Ninja'd.

 

[Lord Dio]

For those not watching stream or the thread, Frostbite 2018 just got announced.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I am thinking this Tourament might possibly do to Dabuz. However, Cosmos haa a good chance to beat Salem and then Dabuz That is a possibiliy all the upsets he has been getting..and both Salem and Dabuz have had issues with Corrin in the past..Or if ZeRo can go unto full losers bracket run mode

 

[Lord Dio]

Isn't corrin a struggle for rosa?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrrm well Cosmos beat Salem, who thinks Cosmos can go even further?

 

[TDK]

The Big House 7 (512 Entrants) (Michigan)

1st: Dabuz
2nd: Marss
3rd: Cosmos
4th: ZeRo
5th: MVD
5th: Salem
7th: Ally
7th: Larry Lurr
9th: Komorikiri
9th: Mr. R
9th: VoiD
9th: Nairo
13th: Mr. E
13th: Captain Zack
13th: Raito
13th: Zinoto
17th: MattyG
17th: Tweek
17th: Abadango
17th: Dyr
17th: Tyroy
17th: Gackt
17th: Light
17th: Javi
25th: Ned
25th: NAKAT
25th: Mistake
25th: Lagnel
25th: Xzax
25th: ESAM
25th: Ryuga
25th: Blacktwins

 

[Lord Dio]

So, another tournament in which Falcon did well
Inb4 it was a secondary falcon

Also for the first time since iirc January, Komorikiri is the highest placing Cloud in a USA tournament. Yesssss
Probably the highest result MVD has had to date.
Mr E hasn't been seen in big tournaments for a while, nice to see he did well (took out Tweek)
Apparently aba didn't win any games with bayo

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Mr E hasn't been seen in big tournaments for a while

Exactly what do you mean by that?

If by Top 16, his most recent one was Dreamhack Atlanta, which was only a few months ago.