Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Envoy of Chaos]

I haven't had a high opinion of Robin for a while now it will be interesting to see with all those Robins if she can pull through.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Got a list of how many players use each character? Like how many Marths, Lucinas, Ikes, Robins, Roys and Corrins? May as well count players who use more than one twice like Ke-Ya that you have listed there. Personally interested in how many Robins and Roys there are so far.

Roy I believe only has 3 like mains confirmed. Captain Levi, Ryo, and Shogi. Hyper can’t attend sadly.

 

[Lord Dio]

Is Hyper unable to go?
edit, frogged.

 

[TDK]

Does Ryo even use Roy? I was under the impression he's been solo Ike since like, March.

 

[Krysco]

I want at least one of those Robin's to do well so I can delude myself into believing that my main is worth something in the current meta. Also want at least one Roy to do well so the underdog I'm rooting for gets more results to hopefully and eventually get out of low tier. Damn shame that Hyper can't attend ):

 

[Skeeter Mania]

10-11 (Cosmos, Ryuga, Muj, Promaelia, Tsuna, YOC, Ke-Ya, Frozen, Mugi, Rameses, maybe MKLeo)
6 (Dath, Mr. ii, Ke-Ya, Athena, Mad Ice King, Matsudoku)
5 (MKLeo, Mr. E, Pugwest, Plastic Poptart, False)
4 (Ryo, Nojinko, San, Waldo)
3 (Kogarasuma, Mr. E, Plastic Poptart)
2 (Captain Levi, Shoghi)

There's still six hours yet, and with all the funds in the shop but not all on one player we'll probably see 1+ of these people also come:

Skorpio
VIBE
Earth
Vexx
TheFlow

So Hyper may not be funded in time?

 

[GS3K]

So Hyper may not be funded in time?

I think hyper mentioned on his twitter that he can't go or something like that

(edit- unless I'm getting him mixed up with a different hyper, if there is one)

 

[blackghost]

If Jigglypuff had a secret tech that for some reason only works on Cloud, Diddy and Bayo making her effectively counter them, but still loses any other matchup, would Jigglypuff be Top Tier?
Let that one sink a moment.

No but only because the smash 4 meta isn't like the other smash games at the top of it's tier list. If a character was discovered to have tech that hard countered the top 5 in melee they are effectively top tier. In smash 4 that won't carry a character

 

[The-Technique]

No but only because the smash 4 meta isn't like the other smash games at the top of it's tier list. If a character was discovered to have tech that hard countered the top 5 in melee they are effectively top tier. In smash 4 that won't carry a character

yeah it wouldnt help jigglypuff much when she gets destroyed by every other low/mid/high/top tier in this game

 

[ARISTOS]

10-11 (Cosmos, Ryuga, Muj, Promaelia, Tsuna, YOC, Ke-Ya, Frozen, Mugi, Rameses, maybe MKLeo)
6 (Dath, Mr. ii, Ke-Ya, Athena, Mad Ice King, Matsudoku)
5 (MKLeo, Mr. E, Pugwest, Plastic Poptart, False)
4 (Ryo, Nojinko, San, Waldo)
3 (Kogarasuma, Mr. E, Plastic Poptart)
2-3 (Captain Levi, Shoghi, maybe Ryo)

There's still six hours yet, and with all the funds in the shop but not all on one player we'll probably see 1+ of these people also come:

Skorpio
VIBE
Earth
Vexx
TheFlow

> More Lucina than Roy

Is life truly worth living

 

[Yonder]

> More Lucina than Roy

Is life truly worth living

More Robin than Roy, Lucina, AND Marth.

Those are some truely tipped scales.

This will be Robin's chance to change his fate, as he is teetering on the lower mid to low tier scale at the moment sadly. As one of my favorite characters to play, I hope one of the Robin players do something with him, don't let this be another ARMs saga where all the Mac's floundered at their own event.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I saw some talk on Bayonetta's Fair 1 string on Fox being called "inescapable".

This is true if you don't DI or SDI. If Fox SDI's downwards, he'll be able to drop low enough to avoid Fair 1.

It's then up to the Bayonetta to notice this and use Nair to knock him as far as she can, otherwise Fox can then recover (and still can after Nair in some cases but that's still going to be an edgeguard attempt for Bayonetta).

Edit: just a disclaimer, this is still a good option on Fox and is a real threat to him. I'm merely correcting a minor mistake.

 

[verbatim]

I've also literally see someone SDI up and out of it as Fox. Not that that's easy, but it isn't inescapable.

 

[blackghost]

I saw some talk on Bayonetta's Fair 1 string on Fox being called "inescapable".

This is true if you don't DI or SDI. If Fox SDI's downwards, he'll be able to drop low enough to avoid Fair 1.

It's then up to the Bayonetta to notice this and use Nair to knock him as far as she can, otherwise Fox can then recover (and still can after Nair in some cases but that's still going to be an edgeguard attempt for Bayonetta).

Edit: just a disclaimer, this is still a good option on Fox and is a real threat to him. I'm merely correcting a minor mistake.

People should also stop running straight to the set of Salem vs Larry (which happened a while back) when talking about this matchup. The sets at gtx were a much better demonstration of how the matchup is today in the meta.
Bayo cannot for fox to approach (no bullet arts at .5 percent don't do anything). Bayo is slower, worse normals and has no defensive options to escape fox strings herself. Before anyone says it: wutch time is not a defensive option. Witch time is a hard read agianst a good player. She also effectively doesn't have an airdodge at low and mid percents.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Fox still has to space out lasers and not get caught shooting too close to her, what is that compared to her projectiles in terms of range?

 

[Aaron1997]

https://smash.gg/tournament/little-big-house-3/attendees

Don't forget that the pre TBH7 Local Little Big House is tonight

Notable's

Ally
Salem
Abadango
Zinoto
Ned
Mistake
Darkshad
Tyroy
Elexiao
MattyG
Ryuga
Frozen
Sinji
Blacktwins
Pugwest
Raffi-X
8Bitman
Ozone
Hungrybox

 

[Illuminose]

blackghost bayo takes fox strings the same as everyone else, except that she has good options to escape resets without burning her jump or air dodging. this limits fox's ability to extend his combos beyond guaranteed damage. furthermore, fox isn't exactly capable of forcing bayo to approach, either. she isn't really threatened by lasers because she can punish fox for lasers from a pretty decent range and easily avoid them without shielding or putting herself in a disadvantageous position. he can dance around bayo with movement, granted, but that's more of bait and punish rather than forcing an approach, which is the same thing bayo is basically trying to do.

i don't disagree that the bayo fox we're seeing (very back and forth) is a decent representation of what would we should see, at least in terms of neutral play and such. the big thing that is lacking, though, is the lethal punish game that pushes the matchup toward a solid advantage for bayo. fair strings are definitely that much of a game changer in the mu because they aren't too difficult to start up and kill fox at basically any percent. if we're seeing that the matchup looks pretty close without utilizing fair strings and is agreed to be a slight advantage for bayonetta, it stands to reason that the addition of such absurd, lethal punishes would push the matchup toward a solid advantage for bayo.

now, sdi conversation. for starters, it is very hard to sdi fair to any meaningful extent. it only has 5 frames of hitlag and no extra sdi or hitlag multiplier. based on my understanding, this means that you have to get an sdi input within those 5 frames to even get any sdi. based on talking with one of my friends who is a bayo main and also what captain zack has said, sdi up can work vs fair strings if you do manage to get the sdi inputs. sdi down doesn't really have any merit that i know of against bayo fair strings Bowserboy3 unless you have a good source on that. the flaw with sdi up (if you manage to get it, still hard) is that it can be covered by up b, which leads into fair for a decent percent range or just hits them far enough that it's hard to recover. fair strings are very hard to escape, and the way you can technically escape can be covered on reaction with an option that leads to death anyways.

 

[BSP]

Outside of grab (Which I've had go through someone only to eat a smash attack so many times), his aerials don't align with his physics. Like, at all. They feel like bad aerials strapped to Rosalina in terms of physics. His aerials still have uses, but they feel like they were meant for a character that moves faster in the air. I also don't feel like he has a clear game plan beyond "Annoy the opponent until they figure out your tricks".

I'd love to learn more about Pac, if you have the time.

Spoiler: Aerials

You aren’t wrong when you say his aerials feel like discount version of other characters’ (except Fair). That being said, they still have a use like you said.

Fair is fast at F5 with decent range and great FAF of 26. The move starts off as a poke that leaves the opponent with frame advantage, but gradually turns into one of Pac’s best moves imo.

Until your opponent is at the % where Fair gives Pac-Man enough frame advantage to combo into Nair, he’s better off using Fair as a relatively safe poke, an OOS punish if nothing else will work, or a gimping tool offstage (you can frame trap airdodges easily with this move).

Once Fair -> Nair is online, Fair leads to about 14% every time you can connect with it. Then eventually you hit the % range where Fair -> Fair becomes a thing. At that point, the move becomes amazing since you can drag people across the stage or drag them towards the blastzone and then try to gimp them. Fair -> Fair -> Uair also isn’t hard to pull off on people as you’re falling with them.

At around 120%+, Fair starts confirming into Key, giving Pac a pretty low commitment kill confirm.

At 100%+, Fair can also force the untechable spin once it puts the opponent into tumble, which can net KOs with Apple or landing with them and Usmashing them. It’s a pretty great aerial overall imo, but Pac has to be aware of what he’s capable of with the opponent’s current %.

Uair is a poor man's Falcon Uair. You use it in the same exact fashion except you don’t land into people with it because it’s not nearly as safe. It does 10% and can combo into itself pretty easily once you start hitting higher %s. Landing a falling or rising SH Uair can easily chain into two more once the opponent is sufficiently damaged. It maintains its strength throughout its arc, so aiming to hit opponents with the back hit is a good idea to get the best followups. It also slightly moves Pac-Man upwards when he performs the move, letting him do some quirky things like fast fall earlier than he could normally or drop through a platform, uair, and then land back on the platform he dropped through. It’s important to note Pac can SH Uair -> another UAir or Nair before he lands. I’m not sure if he can Fair before he hits the ground, I haven’t tried. Regardless, the reason I mention this is because the move is good at anti airing because of this.

Bair is meh. It has decent range and does good damage, but has slowish startup for a brawler Bair (F9 while Mario Bros have F6 bairs. Ike’s is faster than Pac’s XD). It’s good for walling, combo’ing at mid-mid high %, and is Pac’s meatiest aerial hitbox to contest opponents with. It’s not safe on block though, being -8 on drop at best. People give it more respect than they should.

Dair…It’s good for killing Luma and forcing the opponent into the air when they’re at low % since it has high base knockback (something pac lacks generally), but this move tends to be outclassed by something else 9 times out of 10. It’s a decent landing mixup and Pac can do ledge hop Dair and land with no lag, but the move is still situational at best.

Nair is up there with the best of them. It’s F3 (combo breaker), does 10%, lingers for a bit (although the later hitboxes are smaller than Pac-Man’s hurtbox), is a good combo finisher and safe on most of the cast’s shield if done properly, and can kill. It gives Pac a great OOS answer to anything that isn’t spaced well, which is important considering Pac-Man can force people to jump. I think its use is pretty straightforward.

I wouldn't turn down an air speed buff for Pac-Man but I've always felt fine when using his aerial kit with his physics (and I play Mario too for comparison). Pac-Man's floatiness helps him with his Fair chains and the low base knockbacks means the opponent stays close to him until they're really damaged. Outside of Dair being pretty bad, I think they range from ok to great.

Spoiler: Gameplan

As for his gameplan, it varies depending on the MU. Pac-Man is kinda complicated, but at the same time I think he actually has a clear plan when going into a specific MU. As of late, when I play MUs I’ve begun to think about what the opponent wants to do and how Pac-Man’s tools can stop them from being successful / play around their strategy. I think the idea is best illustrated through example.

Let’s take Luigi for example. Off the top of my head, here are some attributes of the MU:

• Luigi wants to grab Pac-Man and do massive damage from grab combos.
• Luigi outboxes Pac-Man at any range except point blank, but they're about even in range for normals. Pac-Man's definitely has a larger effective range though, though it depends on the fruit he's holding.
• Luigi has a fireball to help control neutral space and condition responses but is generally unable to force an approach without the lead.
• His cyclone spike is super deadly offstage.
• Luigi has average-ish dash speed but very poor air speed and falling speed.
• His recovery is a pretty linear and susceptible to being interrupted

…and so on. Now with stuff like that in mind, I take a look at Pac-Man’s tools and see if he has a response to the things.

Corresponding to the order listed above.

• Pac-Man is pretty good at playing anti grab. Specifically, his trampoline shuts down grounded approaches completely for a short time (meaning the person approaching can't grab). To minimize Luigi’s biggest damage racking tool, Pac-Man should be using the trampoline a lot in the MU.
• Unless Pac-Man is on top of Luigi, Pac-Man will lose a button war. With that in mind, Pac-Man should try to stay right outside of dash grab range or farther if possible.
• Luigi’s fireballs travel slowly and are easy to react to being shot. Pac-Man can pellet heal off of them easily, and a pellet sitting on the ground blocks grounded fireballs that Luigi throws. Hydrant can block two of these, then a third will launch it. Along with these options, Apple’s, Strawberry’s, and Bell's trajectories allow them to travel over fireballs and still hit Luigi, with the former having KO power. Key will cut through them and still hit Luigi as long as the fireball isn’t fresh.
• Luigi has nothing to force an approach and Pac-Man has better mobility than him, so Pac-Man gets to control the pace of the battle.
• If Pac-Man chooses to recover low, he should make sure that if he gets cyclone spiked, the trampoline is right under him to save him. Ideally Pac-Man’s recovery is flexible enough to avoid the situation entirely and recovering low should be done with caution.
• Luigi is slow, meaning he has a very difficult time catching up to Pac-Man. Trampoline can be used liberally since Luigi is unlikely to be able to punish a miss. Pac-Man may give up stage control with a miss, but even when cornered he can be in a strong position with an obstacle set up. Since Luigi falls slowly, Pac-Man should also consider anti air’ing him with his massively disjointed Utilt, forcing Luigi to land into his shield in order to trampoline him OOS, or catch landings with his disjointed smash attacks.
• With such a slow recovery, Pac-Man (IMO) is better off jumping offstage to try to intercept Luigi’s return. Pac-Man can recover from as deep as Luigi can, so Luigi can’t simply wait Pac-Man’s edge guard attempt out. Bair and power pellet > missile, and the fruits will stop it dead in its tracks. Rising cyclone has a ton of lag that’s punishable with an aerial or potentially an aerial power pellet.

And so on and so forth. Then you execute the plan, see how it goes, and adjust when stuff doesn’t work or keep doing it if it continues to work.

Notice that the bullet points I listed are, for the most part, facts about each character and not "tricks". Pac-Man gets called out a lot for tricks (for good reason) but he also has actual tools that work regardless of whether or not the opponent is fully aware of them. I think using him in a "tools vs tools" method is strongest, but that's just me. I hope my Luigi example spelled out a bit of a gameplan that doesn't rely on tricking Luigi or anything.

Also as an aside, Pac-Man can always make sure his fruit can't be turned against him. It may be inconvenient at times, but stolen fruit is always the Pac-Man player's fault.

For the record I think he's mid tier ish. He's got very clear flaws but I think his kit works well enough to allow him to compete...as long as he plays the MU correctly.

 

[Lord Dio]

Yeah, actually. It's done EVO style which means this is all hypothetical round 2 pool stuff, again:

Spoiler

Note: 4 people from each of these pools makes it into top 32, two in winners and two in losers. The bracket itself looks like this:

Spoiler

View attachment 133002

With that out of the way, onto the pools:
L201: Fatality vs Cosmos and ZeRo vs Umeki is the projected winners finals. I find it strange that Umeki is seeded so highly, honestly. I can't tell you the last notable thing he's done internationally, and I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that he'll lose to MattyG in semis, leading to ZeRo vs MattyG for half of this finals. I can't see ZeRo getting upset by either of them or Dragon , but I think Cosmos vs Fatality could go either way, even if Fatality's seeded to come out on top.. Pretty standard. The only other wildcard here is Slenderman , who could upset Tyrant if Tyrant loses to Fatality.

'd but these things take a while to write up. Enjoy.

Important update: Fatality is staying home. Something involving flight and room troubles and how changing it is too expensive.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Remember guys, Witch Time isn't a defensive option.

 

[TDK]

Raffi-X 2-1 Ally

 

[Minordeth]

Quick post: fwiw, Illuminose , Zack used to think that Fox/Bayo was unwinnable for Fox, but as of late July that "fox bayo is hardly bayo favor if at all and bayo does really well vs dk."

He states this for a variety of reasons, acknowledging Fair strings, but giving weight to Bayo's inability to effectively do shield cross ups which she "thrives" on in other match ups, has a hard time getting off the ledge versus him, gets juggled hard, and is easily whiff punished.

 

[TDK]

The Little Big House 3 (143 Entrants) (Michigan)

1st: Mistake
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Raffi-X
4th: Blacktwins
5th: DarkShad
5th: Tyroy
7th: Salem
7th: Ned
9th: 8BitMan
9th: Gackt
9th: Umeki
9th: Ozone
13th: Ally
13th: Nero
13th: Smasher1001
13th: Light

 

[Game7a1]

The Little Big House 3 (143 Entrants) (Michigan?)

1st: Mistake
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Raffi-X
4th: Blacktwins
5th: DarkShad
5th: Tyroy
7th: Salem
7th: Ned
9th: 8BitMan
9th: Gackt
9th: Umeki
9th: Ozone
13th: Ally
13th: Nero
13th: Smasher1001
13th: Light

TLBH3 was in Michigan.
Abadongo also took games with .

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The Little Big House 3 (143 Entrants) (Michigan)

1st: Mistake
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Raffi-X
4th: Blacktwins
5th: DarkShad
5th: Tyroy
7th: Salem
7th: Ned
9th: 8BitMan
9th: Gackt
9th: Umeki
9th: Ozone
13th: Ally
13th: Nero
13th: Smasher1001
13th: Light

Also Salem was using ZSS, not Normal Samus. I don't think I saw him use Bayo at all on stream

 

[T4ylor]

Ziodyne 21 I believe one of the casters mentioned seeing him play Samus as he passed the setup, perhaps he used both? He does have an amazing Samus after all

 

[Yonder]

The Little Big House 3 (143 Entrants) (Michigan)

1st: Mistake
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Raffi-X
4th: Blacktwins
5th: DarkShad
5th: Tyroy
7th: Salem
7th: Ned
9th: 8BitMan
9th: Gackt
9th: Umeki
9th: Ozone
13th: Ally
13th: Nero
13th: Smasher1001
13th: Light

Ally is really in a bit of a funk lately. I would have said Aba but at least he got 2nd here. Mario himself isn't doing too hot...what gives? I see him dropping, but not out of top tier. Yet.

Nice to see ROB putting in work, I think he's underrated myself, depending on how campy people are willing to play as him...does t hurt he has a kill confirm and weight to utilize with rage.

Kind of seems like Bowser/DK in that right, except he's arguably slower and his confirm isn't as good in exchange for a better neutral/less prone to camping.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

KEN, Shuton, and Kiriharaare coming to FE Saga!

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Aaron1997 Can we stop putting Hungrybox as a notable for smash4? Maybe he would get decent results with puff if he would invest as much time in smash4 as with meele but not like he does now and he doesn't need to in the first place.

blackghost
What is the best way to get out of fair strings? Like with any char.

 

[|RK|]

Ally is really in a bit of a funk lately. I would have said Aba but at least he got 2nd here. Mario himself isn't doing too hot...what gives? I see him dropping, but not out of top tier. Yet.

Nice to see ROB putting in work, I think he's underrated myself, depending on how campy people are willing to play as him...does t hurt he has a kill confirm and weight to utilize with rage.

Kind of seems like Bowser/DK in that right, except he's arguably slower and his confirm isn't as good in exchange for a better neutral/less prone to camping.

Possibly because he also has a billion secondaries, but even in the MUs he plays Mario in, ANTi is looking like the best Mario currently. Ally can still bring it back, ofc.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Ally is really in a bit of a funk lately. I would have said Aba but at least he got 2nd here. Mario himself isn't doing too hot...what gives? I see him dropping, but not out of top tier. Yet.

Nice to see ROB putting in work, I think he's underrated myself, depending on how campy people are willing to play as him...does t hurt he has a kill confirm and weight to utilize with rage.

Kind of seems like Bowser/DK in that right, except he's arguably slower and his confirm isn't as good in exchange for a better neutral/less prone to camping.

ANTi and Zenyou both placed highly at GTX to make up for Ally's underperformance, though.

 

[the king of murder]

Ally is really in a bit of a funk lately. I would have said Aba but at least he got 2nd here. Mario himself isn't doing too hot...what gives? I see him dropping, but not out of top tier. Yet.

The above posters already mentioned it but I want to go into a bit more detail

Only wanting to use Ally as way to determine Marios viability is pretty shortsighted. Ron got 2nd at a stacked sumabato only losing to Aki. ANTi got 5th at GT-X and won Goml(going mostly Mario at both) and Zenyou 13th at GT-X. Ally also got 5th at Shine 4th at Pax.

Mario is doing fine results wise and only not doing "hot" because Ally is in a slump right now. It doesnt help that Ally loses in MUs that are perfectly winnable for Mario. It becomes more apparent that this is more of a player problem and that Mario is still a very strong character so this "Mario is bad now" stigma is blowing it way out of propotion. Other Marios are slowly catching up though.

Side note: Despite Ally being in a slump right now, he still maintains a positive record against the top Clouds like Tweek(who is close to his prime) and Komorikiri. Anti also beat Tweeks Cloud recently and overcame Leos as well at PAX. I also made a post of how Ally has a positive record against the general top Cloud player (Tweek, Ned, Komo, Blacktwins ect....) I wonder how many times Mario has to beat the top Clouds to prove that this MU really isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. It should be at worst even.

 

[Minordeth]

Ally has two problems right now, and I say both of these with the disclaimer that I love watching the man play:

1. He spent the last three years rarely practicing. This games meta is slow and conservative, and to be fair, he hasn't had a reason to need to practice in much of any capacity. He has been able to rely on his excellent fundamentals and instincts to carry him.

But, we are now slowly crossing that breaking point where the meta is getting to the place where more in depth skill is required. Top players can't simply rely on their characters tools alone to carry them. They need to know more to succeed. The Bayo mains are feeling this hard as the meta adapts to their characters tools. It's been a faster adaptation than the meta's adaptation to Diddy as well.

Look at Zero, it's really only recently that he has learned how to fight Bayo. It cost him Evo, and that's a tough pill. But judging by his last set with Salem, he is crystallizing that plan to the point where Salem looked lost at times.

Basically, Ally needs to practice more. He needs to study more. He needs to reach a new skill level. But honestly, he may not want to. He has stated he needs to do other things when he is not at tourney, just like Mango.

I like watching him play quite a bit, so I hope he either picks up the secondary he needs, or starts to accelerate his knowledge.

2. Mario has a glaring hole in his game plan: speed to make up for his lack of range. I've said this before, as have other posters, but Mario is going to struggle. He has extended tools to help, but nothing is going to make up for the fact that some MUs are going to only get rougher as the meta (slowly) develops.

 

[TDK]

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-big-house-7-discussion-thread.450532/

The big house starts in an hour, so here's the thread for it.

 

[blackghost]

Aba finnally has a real bayo. It's taken a while.
sleepy_Nex sdi down or up hard. Even What character do you play? It knowing your individual character's options can save you.
So has it been established aggressive bayo is a better rises than passive bayo on account of mu chart being better and bayo not being able to force an approach from large portions of the cast?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Aba finnally has a real bayo. It's taken a while.
sleepy_Nex sdi down or up hard. Even What character do you play? It knowing your individual character's options can save you.
So has it been established aggressive bayo is a better rises than passive bayo on account of mu chart being better and bayo not being able to force an approach from large portions of the cast?

Real Bayonetta? What do you mean by that?

 

[Bigbomb2]

He probably means that Aba hasn't figured out the trues ins and outs of playing Bayo to her current meta standard, until recently. Basically, his assimilation into being a Bayo co-main is complete.

 

[BSP]

2. Mario has a glaring hole in his game plan: speed to make up for his lack of range. I've said this before, as have other posters, but Mario is going to struggle. He has extended tools to help, but nothing is going to make up for the fact that some MUs are going to only get rougher as the meta (slowly) develops.

About a year ago, I remember I had to argue with people about Mario not being fast. I'm glad people are realizing his mobility is a bit limited.

As for Ally, his lack of optimized punish game is really starting to show and he needs to fix it if he wants to keep up. Not too long ago we would've expected Ally to take something like little big house for free. Hopefully he can get back up there.

 

[Minordeth]

About a year ago, I remember I had to argue with people about Mario not being fast. I'm glad people are realizing his mobility is a bit limited.

As for Ally, his lack of optimized punish game is really starting to show and he needs to fix it if he wants to keep up. Not too long ago we would've expected Ally to take something like little big house for free. Hopefully he can get back up there.

Yeah, I mean, Mario has a pretty big thing going for him: The Grab™. If he gets it, he can get that big damage, but since The Grab™ is getting harder to score, he needs to really make the most of it. Dark Wizzy is probably right that extended footstool combos are the way to go. I don't agree with him that Mario footstool combos + FLUDD = top 5, but Mario does need something to keep him in the game.

Getting 30 or 40 off of the BnB combos isn't enough when Sheik can get 50, Fox can vortex, Bayo can Bayo, Mewtwo can go full Swiss Army Knife, Rosa can Luma, and his own brother can get 80 off a grab on freaking Cloud. Not to mention the Hulk/Macho Man Randy Savage tag team in Bowser and DK, and the other high/top tiers with over the top tools with their instakill pins and tippers and ladders.


...


Oh. And Sonic. He... goes fast?

 

[chaos11011]

But then every japanese Duckhunt loses to Kirihara. Always.
GP might not be the one pivotal tool one would imagine (DH isn't projectile heavy anyway), but with that evidence and a bit of personal experience, it doesn't seem to be a favorable matchup for Duckhunt at all.

First of all, I'd like to apologize for replying to a post about a week back.

Second, Duck Hunts lose to Kirihara because of the inability to land (without Can, Duck Hunt has one of the worst disadvantage states in the game, and UAir is disjointed, so it ignores it) and how easily Rosa can gimp DH. I usually hate the "gimp" argument for DH, as it's extremely overrated, but Rosa is one of the few characters who can consistently cover every single option the dog hs off stage.

DH is no slouch in the MU tho. The neutral is about neck and neck, and I've even sometimes give props to DH for being better at it than Rosa at times. His ability to remove Luma with absolute ease is often shrugged off when people talk about this MU. In fact Raito didn't even use one of the most effective ways to eliminate Luma: If you FAir both Rosa and Luma at the same time, you can land on Luma and UTilt -> Nair it before Rosa can punish you. You give up a bit of stage control as you've forced to retreat with NAir, but it does a good job KOing Luma as long as you're 1/4 distance from the stage.

Disadvantage is extremely rough and it bleeds the most in this MU. I do think the match up is ultimately in Rosa's favor, but a lot of Rosalina's belittle the dog's ability to put in the work.