Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Lord Dio]

Exactly what do you mean by that?

If by Top 16, his most recent one was Dreamhack Atlanta, which was only a few months ago.

A few months ago is what I mean by a while.
it felt like we haven't seen him at a big tournament as much as we used to.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

A few months ago is what I mean by a while.
it felt like we haven't seen him at a big tournament as much as we used to.

Also what do you mean by "hasn't been seen"? It kinda implies pretentiousness in a way.

 

[Nu~]

"Corrin is top 10" and "ZSS was always top 3" posts incoming

 

[Lord Dio]

Also what do you mean by "hasn't been seen"? It kinda implies pretentiousness in a way.

whoops nvm, august was two months ago
My memory sucks, I meant it felt like he hadn't gotten in a top 16 area in a while, was mistaken on that.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

We cannot about players we have not seen place at big tournaments without bringing up Marss

Because holy S*** his losers run performance . After being sent to losers in pools by Ally, he went to beat his past demon in Zack, beat Void again win the run back vs Ally, MVD, was the second player to 3-0 ZeRo in an upset. Then beat Cosmos who was also tearing the tournament up with upset after upset


Props to Marss for his performance today, I do hope he can start to more large competions again.

 

[Lord Dio]

"Corrin is top 10" and "ZSS was always top 3" posts incoming

On popular social media platforms? yeah. Here? no, not really.
The consensus is corrin's affirmed her high tier status and that zss is top 7-8, and definitely better than marth, ryu, and mewtwo.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Any other honourable mentions perhaps?

 

[Nu~]

On popular social media platforms? yeah. Here? no, not really.
The consensus is corrin's affirmed her high tier status and that zss is top 7-8, and definitely better than marth, ryu, and mewtwo.

My main point was that after a single tournament, ppl are already starting to make pretty big claims. May have used a bit too much hyperbole lol, but my purpose stands.

T's civil war run didn't "prove" that Link was a high tier char, so why is Cosmos' run being treated as such?

I just wanna see some actual discussion as to why corrin is definitely a high tier and why ZSS is definitely top 7 or w/e that doesn't involve such a definitive "this tourney proved it!!".

 

[The-Technique]

My main point was that after a single tournament, ppl are already starting to make pretty big claims. May have used a bit too much hyperbole lol, but my purpose stands.

T's civil war run didn't "prove" that Link was a high tier char, so why is Cosmos' run being treated as such?

I just wanna see some actual discussion as to why corrin is definitely a high tier and why ZSS is definitely top 7 or w/e that doesn't involve such a definitive "this tourney proved it!!".

Corrin already pulled off decent results and placings throughout 2017, as well as upsetting a few of top players like when Leo used her to beat Salem, or when Muj sent Dabuz to loser's in Smash Con. Corrin's situation isn't like Link's (though both top Links placed 9th at the last 2GG saga so it's not like they haven't done anything recently)

Cosmos has also placed just outside of top 8 throughout the last few majors he attended, it was really only a matter of time before Cosmos finally had a breakthrough. He's definitely not a rando like some view him as, considering he was formerly #2 in Texas, 3# in Ohio, and trains with Tweek and Nairo on a regular basis.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

So, another tournament in which Falcon did well
Inb4 it was a secondary falcon

Also for the first time since iirc January, Komorikiri is the highest placing Cloud in a USA tournament. Yesssss
Probably the highest result MVD has had to date.
Mr E hasn't been seen in big tournaments for a while, nice to see he did well (took out Tweek)
Apparently aba didn't win any games with bayo

It was a secondary one and he only won one game with the falcon in earlier pools.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well I think we can say ZSS is at least around the #7-9 mark. That she is not "overrated" or "carried by Nairo" as many of her detractors like to claim.

I think ZeRo nailed in when he talked about her in his most recent tier list video .

Yea she has quite a few bad MU's on paper. But sometimes ..that does not matter...when a ZSS has rage and an you makes one mistake ? allows the ZSS one opening to start something at then ..boom your stocks start evaporating away at early percents, no matter what character you use

 

[Lord Dio]

It was a secondary one and he only won one game with the falcon in earlier pools.

Inb4 it was a secondary falcon

still counts

 

[Nu~]

Corrin already pulled off decent results and placings throughout 2017, as well as upsetting a few of top players like when Leo used her to beat Salem, or when Muj sent Dabuz to loser's in Smash Con. Corrin's situation isn't like Link's (though both top Links placed 9th at the last 2GG saga so it's not like they haven't done anything recently)

Cosmos has also placed just outside of top 8 throughout the last few majors he attended, it was really only a matter of time before Cosmos finally had a breakthrough. He's definitely not a rando like some view him as, considering he was formerly #2 in Texas, 3# in Ohio, and trains with Tweek and Nairo on a regular basis.

Tru, tru. And I definitely don't doubt Cosmos' skill, that kid's a fiend.

But could we talk about Corrin's tools for a bit? Because every time I see this char do work I feel conflicted.

I see a character with SUPER dumb aerial buttons and anti air/landing tools held back by a rather predictable neutral. Due to having no ground pokes, Cosmos had to rely on tomahawks and short hop baits far more than most players.

That and the hyper reliance on using side B to punish bcause bad mobility stats.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Corrin already pulled off decent results and placings throughout 2017, as well as upsetting a few of top players like when Leo used her to beat Salem, or when Muj sent Dabuz to loser's in Smash Con. Corrin's situation isn't like Link's (though both top Links placed 9th at the last 2GG saga so it's not like they haven't done anything recently)

Cosmos has also placed just outside of top 8 throughout the last few majors he attended, it was really only a matter of time before Cosmos finally had a breakthrough. He's definitely not a rando like some view him as, considering he was formerly #2 in Texas, 3# in Ohio, and trains with Tweek and Nairo on a regular basis.

Trailing back a bit further in the year, Frozen placed 9th at Royal Flush with wins on ANTi and (coincidentally) Marss.

Simply put, Corrin is definitely not lacking in solid results these days.

EDIT: On another note, what's wrong with lack of grounded pokes?

 

[ARGHETH]

My main point was that after a single tournament, ppl are already starting to make pretty big claims. May have used a bit too much hyperbole lol, but my purpose stands.

T's civil war run didn't "prove" that Link was a high tier char, so why is Cosmos' run being treated as such?

I just wanna see some actual discussion as to why corrin is definitely a high tier and why ZSS is definitely top 7 or w/e that doesn't involve such a definitive "this tourney proved it!!".

Mainly because Corrin's been getting good results for a while now through Cosmos and Leo. This isn't like Link, where someone suddenly did well with a character at a major, because she's been getting high tier ish results for a while now. Ask people before this tournament where Corrin is, and most people would still have said high tier.

 

[Lord Dio]

On another note, what's wrong with lack of grounded pokes?

To quote Emblem Lord from a Mario discussion a while back, "Characters with bad ground buttons have no future"
'course, little bit of an exaggeration, but the main point should be there-necessary for their development.

 

[TDK]

It was a secondary one and he only won one game with the falcon in earlier pools.

Actually, he took two games off of Dyr with Falcon in top 32.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

To quote Emblem Lord from a Mario discussion a while back, "Characters with bad ground buttons have no future"
'course, little bit of an exaggeration, but the main point should be there-necessary for their development.

What about down tilt?

 

[Lord Dio]

What about down tilt?

not sure, this was a while back and I wasn't paying too much attention, just remember this bc Emblem Lord quotes

 

[Nu~]

What about down tilt?

Too much lag + not enough range.

 

[Minordeth]

Lmao, I don't know what tier Corrin is in, but she's a good character with enough busted **** to be relevant in the meta.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Actually, he took two games off of Dyr with Falcon in top 32.

Oh I did not know that. I remembered hearing him use it earlier on in bracket but I didn’t know he used it vs Dyr

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Lmao, I don't know what tier Corrin is in, but she's a good character with enough busted **** to be relevant in the meta.

well like with ZSS, she has some obvious flaws yes, but also has a ton of bonkers and jank stuff thst will always heep her top tier and relevant

 

[BSP]

What about down tilt?

Bad as a poke. Even Pac-Man can dash grab all of Corrin's tilts on block.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well when we talk about a character who does not have the best grounded moves. When you What about Cloud? I mean his ground normals are not "bad" but are not exactly amazing and can be punished if reacted. it does not matter when he is so damn stupid strong in the air.

How much time do the best Cloud players stay grounded when they are not charging limit?

 

[Lord Dio]

Well when we talk about a character who does not have the best grounded moves. When you What about Cloud? it does not matter when his air game is so bonkers.

How much time do the best Cloud players stay grounded when they are not charging limit?

ftilt spaced right is a decent poke, and the only grounded move clouds use intentionally as a poke. I'd say charging limit to other gounded moves is a 75:25 ratio tbh, though that's probably an exaggeration

 

[FeelMeUp]

Main issues with having mediocre to bad grounded pokes are:
-Lacking or nonexistent boxing game
-Terrible options for dealing with dash>shield mixups without committing to dash grab(and Corrin's grab game sucks, meaning there's no real reason to commit to jump before she does something)
-Trouble dealing with dash grabs without committing to a defensive option like spotdodge, roll or jump
It's not AS big of a deal for because he has a big ass disjoint with half a million safe on shield aerials and the ability to semi-consistently threaten shield breaks.
Every other character with these problems, like , is bound to suffer as the game ages.

 

[Minordeth]

Corrin and Cloud actually have similar safety on shield with their aerials, similarly massive hit boxes too. The main difference is that Cloud has all around stupid good mobility to make up for his lack of pokes. Corrin has a really good burst option and an excellent initial dash and thus dash to shield, but that's not really on near the same level as what Cloud has.

Now, if Corrin had Roy's dtilt, she'd be a shoe in for top 10 characters in the game easy.

...

In case you're wondering, if Cloud had Roy's dtilt, he'd be hands down busted.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Main issues with having mediocre to bad grounded pokes are:
-Lacking or nonexistent boxing game
-Terrible options for dealing with dash>shield mixups without committing to dash grab(and Corrin's grab game sucks, meaning there's no real reason to commit to jump before she does something)
-Trouble dealing with dash grabs without committing to a defensive option like spotdodge, roll or jump
It's not AS big of a deal for because he has a big *** disjoint with half a million safe on shield aerials and the ability to semi-consistently threaten shield breaks.
Every other character with these problems, like , is bound to suffer as the game ages.

Okay, how exactly do Mario and Ness suffer from this? Their main grounded tools aren't bad in the least.

 

[Minordeth]

Okay, how exactly do Mario and Ness suffer from this? Their main grounded tools aren't bad in the least.

So, in the context of the discussion about pokes (and really safety), Mario has no safe on shield ground buttons. Even Usmash is -13 on drop.

Ness has dtilt, but the lack of range prohibits it from being a good poking tool. Everything else that he has is unsafe.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Okay, how exactly do Mario and Ness suffer from this? Their main grounded tools aren't bad in the least.

Ness does not have great grounded tools, jab doesn't even connect properly without some damage, f-tilt exists, up tilt is only decent for combo extensions and his smash attacks are too slow to just throw out like you would a Roy tilt (Tipper Fsmash is safe on some characters thanks to high shield stun and traction but again too slow) Granted his D-Tilt is okay given it beats grabs but like the rest of his ground options they lack range, Ness' strength is his safe and strong aerials and dangerous grab game not his ground game.

Same thing with Mario, while I don't think this will be a deal breaker for them further on it definitely is one less option they have for mixups

 

[Minordeth]

Imma just take a moment for Cosmos' Corrin, which took out two of Corrin's bad MUs, by beating the best reps of those bad MUs. He took out the best Diddy, the best Bayo, and the (tied for 1st) best Sheik.

Like, world class wins here on unfavorable MUs.




Can someone do this with Roy now, please?

 

[Rizen]

Hasn't it been established 's high tier for a long time now? She has too many things going for her to be mid-tier even with unsafe pokes on shield. Her reach is disjointed and about what Marcina's is, with some even longer lance attacks. She's like a watered down Lucina with trick specials. The obvious thing that saves Corrin is the burst mobility of lance pin; it kills and she can choose the following kick direction. Dragon shot is also a versatile projectile because the powerful bite. All these things give her a good zoning game to make up for her poor footsies.

 

[The-Technique]

just realized, both GFs of Melee and Smash 4 were won by the "villains" and the underdog player getting body bagged. what an interesting tournament we've had

 

[R3D3MON]

just realized, both GFs of Melee and Smash 4 were won by the "villains" and the up-and-coming player getting body bagged. what an interesting tournament we've had

HBox isn't a villian lol

P.S. Plup wasn't body-bagged, wtf stop comparing the two games in a forced way.

 

[The-Technique]

HBox isn't a villian lol

that's why i placed it in quotations

i guess i should have worded it better, what i meant is that hbox isnt usually the favorite to win most of the time, same with dabuz, both crowds were quiet after they won

personally i respect both players, whoever wins the tournament worked hard to earn it

 

[Rizen]

and the underdog player getting body bagged.

They must not have watched enough 80s movies.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

that's why i placed it in quotations

i guess i should have worded it better, what i meant is that hbox isnt usually the favorite to win most of the time, same with dabuz, both crowds were quiet after they won

personally i respect both players, whoever wins the tournament worked hard to earn it

Perhaps to word it better, the winner of both sides also used a character widely disliked by each respective community.

 

[Michelaar]

EVEN THOUGH my main is low-tier, I am not gonna stop using my precious penguin.

 

[MERPIS]

Even after this Corrin is not top 15 and ZSS is not top 7-8 or whatever the hell you people spew out. ZSS is being carried by Nairo and Marss just had a lucky break. Some of the top players didn't even attend this event, MKLeo KEN and Larry all weren't there at all, if they were Marss definitely wouldn't have been as lucky as he was. As for Cosmos, this is going to be Dath all over again