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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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HoSmash4

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In :4cloud:'s case, his lack of ground pokes is made up by his ridiculous sword and foxtrot which lets him weave in and out so easily, hence why people compared his foxtrot when he was released to a melee dash dance. If you watch Tweek's gameplay lately it mainly consists of a lot of empty movement with foxtrots, PPs and crossups
:4mario: has shield, roll and grab and usmash. Thats all he needs lmao especially when his shorthop game is very strong for walling
:4zss: ground game is really weak offensively but defensively still top tier imo with f1 jab, fast ftilt/utilt and fast oos option in boost kick.
 
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NINTENDO Galaxy

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I'll go over Shulk's grounded moves.
  • Jab 1 is his fastest attack, coming out at frame 5
  • F-tilt, Up-tilt, and dash attack are great kill moves above 100%; they can kill earlier in Smash Art
  • Down tilt is Shulk's longest reaching tilt
  • F-smash hit 1 can clank with attacks so it can be bad to throw it out near opponents in close quarter combat
  • None of Shulk's grounded moves are safe on shield unless used in Buster Art due to increased shield stun.
 

Skeeter Mania

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Even after this Corrin is not top 15 and ZSS is not top 7-8 or whatever the hell you people spew out. ZSS is being carried by Nairo and Marss just had a lucky break. Some of the top players didn't even attend this event, MKLeo KEN and Larry all weren't there at all, if they were Marss definitely wouldn't have been as lucky as he was. As for Cosmos, this is going to be Dath all over again
Okay, first off, Larry was at the event, and LEO got disqualified.

Second, Cosmos has had a long streak of success at big tournaments, and this was a particularly big breakout for him. Even beyond that, just refer to posts by myself and @The_Technique above on this page.
 

Wintermelon43

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Even after this Corrin is not top 15 and ZSS is not top 7-8 or whatever the hell you people spew out. ZSS is being carried by Nairo and Marss just had a lucky break. Some of the top players didn't even attend this event, MKLeo KEN and Larry all weren't there at all, if they were Marss definitely wouldn't have been as lucky as he was. As for Cosmos, this is going to be Dath all over again
Larry must be a REALLY good player then, he got 7th without even attending!!!
 

Lord Dio

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Even after this Corrin is not top 15 and ZSS is not top 7-8 or whatever the hell you people spew out. ZSS is being carried by Nairo and Marss just had a lucky break. Some of the top players didn't even attend this event, MKLeo KEN and Larry all weren't there at all, if they were Marss definitely wouldn't have been as lucky as he was. As for Cosmos, this is going to be Dath all over again
*facepalms*
Larry got bodied by ZeRo in top 8 Losers. He was most definitely there.
You also seem to forget Marss has had a consistently goood record, being the only zss in top 8 of Civil War.
Let me run off a list I saw on twitter of everyone Marss ran through after losing to ally:
crazycolorz, xzax, dyr, captain zack, VoiD, ally, cosmos, MVD, and ZeRo.
When was the last time we saw on a Mewtwo, or Marth, or Ryu, go on such a big loser's run? Because zss has proven herself better than those characters numerous time, which puts her at top 7-9
 

Bigbomb2

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Got to say, Raito has been doing pretty well too. He's been hanging out in top 24-16 the past few huge events, which is pretty impressive for any character.
 

Ziodyne 21

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*facepalms*
Larry got bodied by ZeRo in top 8 Losers. He was most definitely there.
You also seem to forget Marss has had a consistently goood record, being the only zss in top 8 of Civil War.
Let me run off a list I saw on twitter of everyone Marss ran through after losing to ally:
crazycolorz, xzax, dyr, captain zack, VoiD, ally, cosmos, MVD, and ZeRo.
When was the last time we saw on a Mewtwo, or Marth, or Ryu, go on such a big loser's run? Because zss has proven herself better than those characters numerous time, which puts her at top 7-9

Speaking of ZSS losers runs. Don't forget about Nairo absolutely insane losers bracket run at Super Smash Con . After being upset by Ridae in pools. He went on a losers bracket rampage to win the she thing, including double-eliminating ZeRo in GF's . Only using Bowser sometimes vs MKLeo and ZeRo too


ZSS has had more restuls than the likes of Mario, Mewtwo,Marcina,Ryu and whoever else is considered around the lower half of top .

Oh..and for any people who will say that ZSS needs to be used with secondaries to win anything..
Look at how many of the best Cloud users alao use secondaries when their Cloud is not working for them.

Tweek will use DK
Komo will use Sonic
MKLeo will use Corrin/Marth/MK

So I guess Cloud is overrated and not top tier as Well?
 
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Heracr055

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Even after this Corrin is not top 15 and ZSS is not top 7-8 or whatever the hell you people spew out. ZSS is being carried by Nairo and Marss just had a lucky break. Some of the top players didn't even attend this event, MKLeo KEN and Larry all weren't there at all, if they were Marss definitely wouldn't have been as lucky as he was. As for Cosmos, this is going to be Dath all over again
Corrin's been achieving good results even before this tournament, so I don't see how you can be comparing Cosmos to Dath (especially considering Corrin is high tier).
Not to mention that ZSS is such a relevant character since her weaknesses and poor MUs are essentially invalidated by her explosive tools.
It's no accident that Nairo, Marss, Anti and Luhtie have been pulling off major wins and upsets with this character (who I personally consider 6th on the tier list)
 
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RonNewcomb

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But could we talk about Corrin's tools for a bit? Because every time I see this char do work I feel conflicted.

I see a character with SUPER dumb aerial buttons and anti air/landing tools held back by a rather predictable neutral. Due to having no ground pokes, Cosmos had to rely on tomahawks and short hop baits far more than most players.

That and the hyper reliance on using side B to punish bcause bad mobility stats.
Cloud also came to my mind immediately. Having a good ground game isn't a prerequisite in a platform fighter. See also Little Mac as an example of the converse.

And there's nothing wrong with relying on a punish move that's both safe and kills easily.

What about down tilt?
It's a combo-starter, not a poke. Unlike Bayo & Mewtwo's d-tilt, which is both.
Hasn't it been established :4corrinf:'s high tier for a long time now? She has too many things going for her to be mid-tier even with unsafe pokes on shield. Her reach is disjointed and about what Marcina's is, with some even longer lance attacks. She's like a watered down Lucina with trick specials. The obvious thing that saves Corrin is the burst mobility of lance pin; it kills and she can choose the following kick direction. Dragon shot is also a versatile projectile because the powerful bite. All these things give her a good zoning game to make up for her poor footsies.
The only argument for her being mid-tier was the poor base mobility, particularly after the nerf. But pin & projectile tend to cover for that. Oh, and the 4-hit sword combos when she finally does catch you.

I'll go over Shulk's grounded moves.
  • Jab 1 is his fastest attack, coming out at frame 5
  • F-tilt, Up-tilt, and dash attack are great kill moves above 100%; they can kill earlier in Smash Art
  • Down tilt is Shulk's longest reaching tilt
  • F-smash hit 1 can clank with attacks so it can be bad to throw it out near opponents in close quarter combat
  • None of Shulk's grounded moves are safe on shield unless used in Buster Art due to increased shield stun.
Shulk makes me sad. Spends the whole fight flinging around an apparently very heavy pool noodle whilst pressing the B button more times that Duck Hunt, only for his opponent to casually walk up to him, powershield, then juggle and tech chase him for the rest of his stock cause he can't escape except by jumping.

You'd think if anyone had good ground pokes it'd be him, but nooooooo.
 

Laken64

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Hasn't it been established :4corrinf:'s high tier for a long time now? She has too many things going for her to be mid-tier even with unsafe pokes on shield. Her reach is disjointed and about what Marcina's is, with some even longer lance attacks. She's like a watered down Lucina with trick specials. The obvious thing that saves Corrin is the burst mobility of lance pin; it kills and she can choose the following kick direction. Dragon shot is also a versatile projectile because the powerful bite. All these things give her a good zoning game to make up for her poor footsies.
Corrin has some pretty good footsies, she has an amazing initial dash and a good extended dash dance. You can see Cosmos bait a reaction with a extended dash dance and then punish with tipper pin which is broke AF lol (rage up air is a close second)
Also to answer your question on Corrin's worst mus :4sheik: is considered the worst by FAR and considered her only 6-4 mu with :4fox::4bayonetta::4diddy::4mewtwo: :4cloud2:as our other slightly losing mus.

ZSS is being carried by Nairo and Marss just had a lucky break.
Because bumping into Zero in losers is considered a lucky break. Note that this is the first time he has taken a set of Zero EVER, in a 3-0 fashion on the best player in the world in his character's worst mu which is worldly considered 6-4. Let that sink in.

As for Cosmos, this is going to be Dath all over again
Several things wrong with that:
Shine wasn't even as stacked as TBH7
The biggest win Dath had was Larry, where as Cosmos beat Zero, Void, Salem, 2 top 3 players and void is basically back in top 10 at this point.
And the final most important point: Robin is a much worse character with bad mus at the top lv unlike corrin who has a decent top tier mu spread all across the board.
The only argument for her being mid-tier was the poor base mobility, particularly after the nerf.
The moblity nerf literally changed nothing about corrin's gameplay, you wouldn't even notice unless you really intensively look and compare the two and even then it wasn't that bad look at this:
(lol the thumbnail)

Also I'm actually going to do a quick write up on pin today (though i promised that like 3 months ago lol) seeing Cosmos amazing preformance at TBH7 and FE saga coming up so stay tuned for that ;)
EDIT: ok so not today but this week lol
 
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Envoy of Chaos

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Speaking of ZSS losers runs. Don't forget about Nairo absolutely insane losers bracket run at Super Smash Con . After being upset by Ridae in pools. He went on a losers bracket rampage to win the she thing, including double-eliminating ZeRo in GF's . Only using Bowser sometimes vs MKLeo and ZeRo too


ZSS has had more restuls than the likes of Mario, Mewtwo,Marcina,Ryu and whoever else is considered around the lower half of top .

Oh..and for any people who will say that ZSS needs to be used with secondaries to win anything..
Look at how many of the best Cloud users alao use secondaries when their Cloud is not working for them.

Tweek will use DK
Komo will use Sonic
MKLeo will use Corrin/Marth/MK

So I guess Cloud is overrated and not top tier as Well?
Though it's more likely for comfortablity or player counterpicking (I personally wouldn't want to use Cloud against ZeRo for example he has shown many times incredible proficiency at that MU) you do bring up a interesting point with these top Cloud a character who is as solo viable as solo viable gets have secondaries they rely on often when Cloud isn't cutting it. Probably nothing worth looking into but it is something that caught my attention, being the most common character next to Mario doesn't help as everyone should know that MU but still.
 

|RK|

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Then what exactly IS a poke?
A poke is a safe, non-committal move that can be used in footsies.

As said, Mewtwo's dtilt is a good example of a combo starter and a poke.

Marth dtilt is just a poke, but doesn't combo into anything.

Corrin's dtilt is just a combo starter, but not a poke.
 

Das Koopa

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REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I SPOT INACCURACIES

Even after this Corrin is not top 15
At this point, when people say "X character is top X" and "X character isn't top X", you're going to need to list the characters that you believe are superior. What 15 characters are better than Corrin? I can think of 11, but how is there this much brazen confidence that the other four couldn't be shuffled around? I'd rank Ryu at 10th-11th, but is that so surefire that maybe he's overrated to some extent and perhaps Corrin is more reliably consistent?

Corrin has been doing well for a while and now we have a definitive high level performance that roughly matches Elegant's run in terms of significance, and plenty of people argue Luigi is top 15 with his CQC and combo game.


and ZSS is not top 7-8 or whatever the hell you people spew out. ZSS is being carried by Nairo and Marss just had a lucky break. Some of the top players didn't even attend this event, MKLeo KEN and Larry all weren't there at all, if they were Marss definitely wouldn't have been as lucky as he was.
"oops I have Captain Zack"

"oops I have the same guy that beat me in pools"

"oops I have three of the best Diddy players in the world, one of my character's worst matchups"

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""lucky""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

How do you even know, anyway? If he didn't meet ZeRo in bracket you would've just said "LUL ZeRo would've destroyed him". We have no idea what would've happened with KEN, Larry, or Leo. He's beaten Leo before and Larry multiple times and we have no record to judge KEN vs. Marss off of past the fact that KEN runs relatively even with Nairo.

What about Choco, anyway? He hasn't attended stateside in years, but he's done very well in Japan this year with a pretty consistent number of big wins and top 8s. He PGR'd without any US attendance (something entirely unique to him on PGRv3) and would probably do really well stateside if he happened to attend. He has one conversion from beating Leo at UJM, but sure, it's just Nairo carrying the well-established top tier lmfao

All three have been good for several years but something something "carrying this **** character that can convert and kill you at 20% off a grab". What? There's nothing placing her below Fox, Sonic, Rosa, etc. She's at least as good as those characters based on her track record/kit and I don't understand the long term insistence on her supposedly not being top 8.

What did ZSS do wrong to be graded along the same lines as downwind characters like Mario & Mewtwo who've struggled for months to maintain their 2016 peaks?

As for Cosmos, this is going to be Dath all over again
Corrin is more or less established as a much better character than Robin is at this point to the extent that some believe she goes even (or even slightly wins) vs. Bayonetta. Robin never had any perception like this, and Dath never went on a run this significant. His bottom placements aren't as poor as Dath's and he lives in a region more conducive to expanding growth.[/spoiler][/spoiler]
 
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Ziodyne 21

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I think ZeRo himself taked about ZSS's state in the top tiet meta when he talked about her in his most recent tier list video .

Yes she has some notable flaws she has quite a few bad MU's on paper.

But sometimes that does not matter, when a ZSS has rage and you then makes one mistake or bad play, allow a good ZSS one opening to start something at then BOOM! your current stock is gone at shocking early percent.. no matter what character you are
 
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ArnoldPalmer

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One of biggest reasons a slow dash speed is so bad is because it leaves you vulnerable to getting spaced out and camped out with projectiles, but Corrin solves the issue with a frame 8 dash to shield, a disjoint of his own, and good burst mobility. Is there actually a matchup where his run speed is a big issue?
 

Yonder

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Larry Lurr posted this interesting video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_NLEZptLv8

Basically, he makes a good point in why Luigi has little representation outside Elegant/Concon. The reason why his meta isn't explored enough to become a true top tier.

Mashing.

Without it, Luigi becomes a mediocre mid tier. It is so important to mash jumpless cyclone to edgeguard and recover with. Eithit jumpless, Luigi is going to be gimped very easily, miss very early stocks offstage, and won't get the spike hitbox if you use the 1st jump most of the time (still not 100% sure how it's determined, but I believe you have to save your jump for the 'drop' effect).

That mashing but is just so demanding for most people, about 12-16 times/second. I guess there are ways to bypass it a bit, most effectively mapping special to 2 buttons myself (but then I compromise my control schemes with other characters, and it messes up my muscle memory switching all the time). I can see why people wouldn't want to pick up Luigi because of it as a counterpick. No other character in the game requires that amount of mashing. That could be a physical limitation thing too, to hit the button so fast. You have to have strong triceps to get the mash with one button. Tbh, both Elegant and Concon are fit fellows.

And the underrated buff throughout all the Luigi nerfs is that increased dair spike hitbox. Fast fall that move offstage on linear recoveries, you'll get it more often then you think (just about 100% guaranteed on Falcon. Being such a fast move with 0 cooldown, there's little risk in trying). Put that in tandem with jumpless cyclone and it's easy to see why Luigi is so potent offstage.

But who knows, maybe the problem isn't as bad as I think? The last three Luigi I versed online could jumpless cyclone.
I can't. I'm a sham

Tl;Dr, Learn to mash with Luigi or he isn't viable outside of locals.


Edit: Fun fact a lot of people don't know about Luigi: Excluding specials, he has the overall best start up data in the game. That's why he's such a crazy boxer up close!
 
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Nah

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One of biggest reasons a slow dash speed is so bad is because it leaves you vulnerable to getting spaced out and camped out with projectiles, but Corrin solves the issue with a frame 8 dash to shield, a disjoint of his own, and good burst mobility. Is there actually a matchup where his run speed is a big issue?
:4cloud::4fox::4sheik:



....while I'm here though, just to add on to the whole pokes thing, numbers are nice:

Marth Dtilt: 6 frames of startup, 16 of endlag, -3/-2 on shield drop
Mewtwo Dtilt: 5 frames of startup, 14 of endlag, -3 on shield drop
Corrin Dtilt: 4 frames of startup, 25 of endlag, -12 on shield drop

Also, fun fact: Robin's Dtilt has comparable frame data and shield safety to Marcina's. Too bad bronze sword is a goddamn butter knife.

oh and btw, this spreadsheet is really nice (it's where I got the above numbers from), and if you don't have it bookmarked or saved somewhere you should do that

like right now
 
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Kofu

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Larry Lurr posted this interesting video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_NLEZptLv8

Basically, he makes a good point in why Luigi has little representation outside Elegant/Concon. The reason why his meta isn't explored enough to become a true top tier.

Mashing.

Without it, Luigi becomes a mediocre mid tier. It is so important to mash jumpless cyclone to edgeguard and recover with. Eithit jumpless, Luigi is going to be gimped very easily, miss very early stocks offstage, and won't get the spike hitbox if you use the 1st jump most of the time (still not 100% sure how it's determined, but I believe you have to save your jump for the 'drop' effect).

That mashing but is just so demanding for most people, about 12-16 times/second. I guess there are ways to bypass it a bit, most effectively mapping special to 2 buttons myself (but then I compromise my control schemes with other characters, and it messes up my muscle memory switching all the time). I can see why people wouldn't want to pick up Luigi because of it as a counterpick. No other character in the game requires that amount of mashing. That could be a physical limitation thing too, to hit the button so fast. You have to have strong triceps to get the mash with one button. Tbh, both Elegant and Concon are fit fellows.

And the underrated buff throughout all the Luigi nerfs is that increased dair spike hitbox. Fast fall that move offstage on linear recoveries, you'll get it more often then you think (just about 100% guaranteed on Falcon. Being such a fast move with 0 cooldown, there's little risk in trying). Put that in tandem with jumpless cyclone and it's easy to see why Luigi is so potent offstage.

But who knows, maybe the problem isn't as bad as I think? The last three Luigi I versed online could jumpless cyclone.
I can't. I'm a sham

Tl;Dr, Learn to mash with Luigi or he isn't viable outside of locals.


Edit: Fun fact a lot of people don't know about Luigi: Excluding specials, he has the overall best start up data in the game. That's why he's such a crazy boxer up close!
I've had the same idea for a while but never posted it here. Jumpless Cyclone is absolutely essential for a top Luigi.
 

Skeeter Mania

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Maybe someone should play more Domination or Pokey Pummel.

That's how I practice button mashing (having a record of around 6 second in the latter).

Which leads me to another subtopic: do you think playing Mario Party button mashing mini games can translate well into performing jumpless Cyclones?
 
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Lavani

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and won't get the spike hitbox if you use the 1st jump most of the time (still not 100% sure how it's determined, but I believe you have to save your jump for the 'drop' effect).
Cyclone's multihits are autolinks. If you're moving down, they're launched down. If you're moving up, they'll be launched up as well. Essentially, you need to fall on them then rise quickly enough to not hit them again to spike with it.
 

Heracr055

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If we're really talking about mashing: Just Do It like Nike.

Looking forward to a Winners & Losers post if someone is going to make one. As well as updated character scores
 

ElectricBlade

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Main issues with having mediocre to bad grounded pokes are:
-Lacking or nonexistent boxing game
-Terrible options for dealing with dash>shield mixups without committing to dash grab(and Corrin's grab game sucks, meaning there's no real reason to commit to jump before she does something)
-Trouble dealing with dash grabs without committing to a defensive option like spotdodge, roll or jump
It's not AS big of a deal for :4cloud: because he has a big *** disjoint with half a million safe on shield aerials and the ability to semi-consistently threaten shield breaks.
Every other character with these problems, like :4jigglypuff::4mario::4ness::4peach::4shulk::4zss:, is bound to suffer as the game ages.

Two questions for you.

1. What are the mix ups associated with dash>shield?
2. How can Cloud threaten shield breaks? I think I already know but I wanna know it from you.
 

Lord Dio

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Two questions for you.

1. What are the mix ups associated with dash>shield?
2. How can Cloud threaten shield breaks? I think I already know but I wanna know it from you.
bair pressure and some ftilt pressure, both versions of Cross Slash do insane amounts of shield damage, as does f smash, though the latter two are easy to punish.
 

Bowserboy3

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Is...

Is that you Witch Twist?...

Nah, it's cool when ZSS does things *eyesemoji*

22447239_1848440058507336_1909172942_n.jpg


Anyhow, I am so pleased with Marss for his run over the weekend. So what if he "got lucky" because the likes of Leo and Larry weren't there (edit; which is a lie apparently). He 3-0'd the best player in the f*cking world, in an arguable losing MU. That's more of a statement than anything else.

It still makes me laugh how people still think ZSS isn't top 10, or at the very least, is a character on the lower end of high tier. Like, what more does she need to do? She has stupid KO combos, Smash 4 jank (rage boost kick) amazing mobility and recovery, fantastic disadvantage state, one of THE most successful characters in top level play, over all patches... don't start with the "carried by a few players" jank. We can say much the same for the majority of the top tiers at top level play (and that's mainly because of how diverse and balanced the game is overall, but that's by the by).

This character is still busted. The sooner people wise up to this, the better.

Also props to Dabuz for winning another event with Rosalina. Another more slept on character these days (albeit to a far lesser extent to ZSS).
 
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ArnoldPalmer

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Is...

Is that you Witch Twist?...

Nah, it's cool when ZSS does things *eyesemoji*
The difference is the risk:reward ratio is extremely skewed in Bayonetta's favor
Don't get me wrong, boost kick is an amazing option, but it still punishable, the opponent can still fall out of it, and you can still live to a remarkably high percent if you don't get hit with it at the ledge

ZSS has also had a year and a half longer than Bayo to progress her meta. Where will the game be in another year?
 
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Routa

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I will just quickly point out that Boost Kick is bad OoS kill move due to bad hitbox placement (covers only small area in front of her) and you can fall from it. Only suggested to use when you are 110% sure that you can land it and kill with it. Add to that how easy it is to punish whiffed Boost Kick and you can see why it is bad OoS option.

edit: got :4greninja:ed
 
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Skeeter Mania

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I will just quickly point out that Boost Kick is bad OoS kill move due to bad hitbox placement (covers only small area in front of her) and you can fall from it. Only suggested to use when you are 110% sure that you can land it and kill with it. Add to that how easy it is to punish whiffed Boost Kick and you can see why it is bad OoS option.

edit: got :4greninja:ed
From what I've seen, this was only due to rage. Mars was able to land multiple Boost Kicks OoS.
 

Bowserboy3

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The difference is the risk:reward ratio is extremely skewed in Bayonetta's favor
Don't get me wrong, boost kick is an amazing option, but it still punishable, the opponent can still fall out of it, and you can still live to a remarkably high percent if you don't get hit with it at the ledge

ZSS has also had a year and a half longer than Bayo to progress her meta. Where will the game be in another year?
Good points for sure,

though the post was just a joke (at least the bit before the image) about the hitbox.
 
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|RK|

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Envoy of Chaos

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Doesn't Nojinko do this regularly?
Dunno I've heard of him but I've never went to see his SDI examples, I figured this was possible given I've fallen out of badly spaced Up air before with normal DI but if it's this consistent as they say then this would eliminate one of Shiek's common kill setups. I'm not a shiek expert so I can't speculate but I know this can't be good for her
 

Heracr055

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The difference is the risk:reward ratio is extremely skewed in Bayonetta's favor
Don't get me wrong, boost kick is an amazing option, but it still punishable, the opponent can still fall out of it, and you can still live to a remarkably high percent if you don't get hit with it at the ledge

ZSS has also had a year and a half longer than Bayo to progress her meta. Where will the game be in another year?
Just a small nitpick about meta progression:
The meta changes whenever a new character or patch drops that has an impact on a character's viability (Marth and Bowser come to mind). When ZSS got nerfed it essentially soft reset what she would be capable of. So most things pre-Bayo shouldn't hold water, especially considering what a significant impact Bayo and some other DLC made to the meta.
I hope this makes sense!
 
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ARISTOS

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Okay so while I feel like was or should already been known I think it's worth posting. Their is a video in the comments. If this is really a thing how badly does it affect Shiek? If your unable to view the link it's been discovered (or rediscovered) that you can SDI out of Shiek's up air very easily.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MVG_Salem/status/916865560335536134
In all the Ftilt into Uair vids I saw the Sheik was just barely catching their opponent with the tip of Uair, so it could be a bit easier to break out of the move during the gaps.

Off the top of my head it seems like it would be a bit harder if Sheik is hitting the move in the middle of the hitbox
 

|RK|

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In all the Ftilt into Uair vids I saw the Sheik was just barely catching their opponent with the tip of Uair, so it could be a bit easier to break out of the move during the gaps.

Off the top of my head it seems like it would be a bit harder if Sheik is hitting the move in the middle of the hitbox
Maybe, maybe not. I know Greninja's uair is possible to escape consistently, and Sheik uair has a higher SDI multiplier.
 

Minordeth

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Amazing.

*Video shows in-depth how to shut down most Bayo options, including Witch Twist, with SDI*
People: it's not practical, she can still do stuff, it looked tough even in the video!

*Video shows someone SDI'ing out of Sheik Uair*
People: Sheik's dead.
 

|RK|

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Amazing.

*Video shows in-depth how to shut down most Bayo options, including Witch Twist, with SDI*
People: it's not practical, she can still do stuff, it looked tough even in the video!

*Video shows someone SDI'ing out of Sheik Uair*
People: Sheik's dead.
To be fair, it makes a sense to have a different approach here. While - at least from what I've been told - you can SDI in a manner that ensures Bayo can never kill you from a conversion, people will still get caught since they have to react to everything perfectly. Bayo can also mix up how she gets to the end goal.

Comparatively, Sheik is already struggling due to a lack of kill options. Uair conversion s are how she gets a good number of kills. You take that away, and then what? She doesn't have a strong bair, or a stock cap throw, and barely has good Smash attacks.
 

Vyrnx

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It's completely possible for a ZSS player to remove any "risk" involved in landing boost kick OOS. This is the case for any character's OOS option if the player knows they have a frame advantage, knows their move will connect, etc, there is no guessing involved. Something I argued over in the past (and something I was wrong about) was that Link's up b oos isn't really that good because "what if the Link player misses and is stuck in endlag"... If an opponent misspaces a move (sometimes even slightly), then the situation is easily reactable for the player in shield and they can be guaranteed a punish. If not, then they won't use the move. There never actually has to be guessing (or risk) involved, especially the more the player knows about frame data. The same incorrect argument over Link's up b oos is often applied to other up B's like Super Jump Punch, Screw Attack, and Boost Kick, that these options OOS are "overrated" because if the player misses, they will be punished. This argument completely hinges on the theory that the player will miss these moves, which is a scenario that can be avoided. A player can guarantee that options OOS will hit.

Still, a key difference between Witch Twist and Boost Kick oos is that Witch Twist can be used somewhat liberally in situations where it isn't guaranteed, and if the Bayo player guesses right and catches an extended hurtbox, a poor approach, an opponent jumping over them, then it works out well for her; if the Bayo guesses wrong, she can be punished but not very hard. Witch Twist oos is a flexible option even if shield itself is a constraining defensive option. This is in contrast to Boost Kick, Screw Attack, etc, where the use of the move is generally reserved to where it's guaranteed it will hit.

These are still some of the best oos options in the game. Boost Kick and Super Jump Punch are the only moves that combine that much speed, range, and kill power into an oos option. With Boost Kick's range and startup, basically any misspaced move on ZSS's shield is guaranteed to be punished, and this translates to kills at generously low percents.

There's a bit more to it than that, though. If ZSS catches an opponent at the edge of Boost Kick's first hit, then whether the move connects effectively becomes a 50:50. If ZSS wins the 50:50, then she deals 16 damage and potentially kills you (an example: in the picture Bowserboy posted, Marss won the 50:50 and killed ZeRo). If she loses, the opponent pops out of the move and flies above ZSS while in hitstun, which means that the opponent gains almost nothing off of winning the 50:50 other than not taking damage and not getting killed. The real ratio in play is reward:no reward. If ZSS catches you closer into the Boost Kick, the opponent is forced to take more hits of the move and thus DI becomes increasingly reactable until it's guaranteed.

If the ZSS has high rage (like 130+ or so), an opponent can DI away on the Boost Kick oos and: a) if the character is a lightweight, they are guaranteed to fly out of the move and won't be able to punish ZSS. b) if the character is a midweight, they are guaranteed to pop out of the move and will be able to kill ZSS (this happened at one point in the Marss ZeRo set) c) if the opponent is a heavyweight, the same 50:50 scenario as before applies. A ZSS with rage should rarely go for Boost Kick OOS.

Stylistically, Marss is very liberal with Boost Kick oos. He uses it more like a Bayo would use Witch Twist--guessing when an opponent will extend a hurtbox, pick the wrong defensive option--he uses it banking on guessing right and landing the move, whether the opponent is even at kill percent or not. He uses it even when he has enough rage that the move stops working as well, I guess hoping that the opponent won't react fast enough to DI the move away.

Through all of 2016, Nairo and Marss' playstyles were sort of converging, until around late 2016 to early 2017, Nairo and Marss both used grounded boost kick a lot and got probably at least a third of their kills with the move. I'd say around Frostbite their styles began to diverge again, and now Nairo uses Boost Kick pretty much when it's guaranteed, and Marss uses it more than he ever has.


----------------------


Here's an interesting thing I noticed about ZSS jank. For a really brief explanation, there are two ways an aerial Boost Kick can jank you--the variant where the ZSS connects Hit 1 from slightly below, and the variant where the ZSS bypasses Hit 2, connects from slightly below, and the opponent flies out of the middle hits. There are actually subvariants of the latter scenario though, where connecting with hits 2-5 kills earlier than connecting 2-4 < connecting 2-3 < grazing with hit 2 only. Each of these Boost Kick variations changes naturally with how far the preceding uair sends the opponent, so each of these variations has its own kill percent range (I was interested in this because I kept seeing Sheik's dying to non-rage jank on normal ceiling stages, not just T&C).

Basically, even with 0 rage, ZSS has an almost continuous percent range where she can kill Sheik off of a grab. For an idea of what I mean, here are the rough kill percent ranges for each variant on FD (no rage), and the percent ranges listed where a kill isn't posssible is in parentheses:

28-31% -- Kill variant 1
(31-34%) -- The second uair of the ladder can only combo into a third uair, not up b.
(34-42%) -- Traditional ladder combo connects for 29%
40-43% -- Kill variant 2.1
46-47% -- Kill variant 2.2
49-54% -- Kill variant 2.3
58-61% -- Kill variant 2.4
Then beyond that, percent ranges for dthrow bair and uair.

This is why sometimes a ZSS will seemingly randomly kill a character off the top where you wouldn't expect her to, and with variations of DI from the opponent shifting percent ranges up and down and the percent ranges weird gaps, a grab on Sheik on FD from ~40-60+/-5 (and the percent range for Kill variant 1) potentially but pretty much randomly (scenarios that it would be crazy hard for either the ZSS or Sheik to account for) can lead to kills.

However, the closer the Sheik is relative to the ceiling when she gets grabbed makes these patches of percent ranges completely continuous--the gaps are no longer there at all. This means getting grabbed on a platform, getting grabbed when Lylat is tilted up, and getting grabbed on T&C period during this range will certainly lead to death. This is true for at least M2, Rosa, and Bayo (when she doesn't fall out lol), and I've seen it happen to other characters like Diddy as well (it would definitely be a much lower probability of happening to a character with Diddy physics however because the above kill percent ranges would narrow further).
Sheik ZSS is what a volatile MU really looks like.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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To be fair, it makes a sense to have a different approach here. While - at least from what I've been told - you can SDI in a manner that ensures Bayo can never kill you from a conversion, people will still get caught since they have to react to everything perfectly. Bayo can also mix up how she gets to the end goal.

Comparatively, Sheik is already struggling due to a lack of kill options. Uair conversion s are how she gets a good number of kills. You take that away, and then what? She doesn't have a strong bair, or a stock cap throw, and barely has good Smash attacks.

Yea I have been noticing for a while that Sheiks is still getting good results, but more and more I see top Sheiks struggling more and more to characters that Sheik has far better neutral than, but lacks the clutch factors and explosive ways to take stocks much earlier than Sheik can.

I.E :4dk::4zss::4bayonetta::4ryu: and even :4corrinf:just at TBH7

Diddy is similar in that he has a top-tier neutral but not many options to take stocks early. The difference though is Diddy has much easier and lets face it.. more consistient kill setups and moves than Sheik

Sheik losing one of her few consistient kill options could be a major blow to her
 
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