Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[FullMoon]

I personally have always thought Greninja and Rosalina were evenly matched, but Dabuz putting it as even comes across as perplexing at least. Did he play any frogs lately that could have led to a change of opinion?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Can't Samus just B reverse Bomb or Charge Shot, then airdodge cancel tether to the ledge?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Can't Samus just B reverse Bomb or Charge Shot, then airdodge cancel tether to the ledge?

Technically any character with a tether can do something to turn around but it's still a committal action that can put you in some form of vulnerable lag.

ZSS doesn't care about that now does she?

 

[MH-Jin]

I think one thing that also gets forgotten about ZSS recovery is she can dip low on tether and flip jump to the other side of the stage (not applicable to every stage).

Most characters can't even dream of challenging that option except for maybe Bayonetta/Sheik/Marcina since they'd be able to make an edgeguard attempt and be able to recover back to stage. Another character who can possibly deflect this option would be Ness with pk thunder.

Plus when you're challenging ZSS flip kick, it can be dangerous due to her having a spike hitbox while you're both off stage. This was part of why beefy smash doods ranked her recovery the best in the game (not saying they're the end all be all... But just a reference)

For Gren-Rosa, greninja has some disjoints with his fair, f smash and ftilt to challenge Rosa and can get out of juggling situations with his side b. Plus his high mobilty would help him slip around Rosalina's defenses. To be honest though, I'm not hyper familiar with the matchup, however I can see why dabuz would call it even

 

[SSB ReVerb]

Venia and Dabuz didn't play in tournament at Xeno when he went like 2-3 weeks ago unfortunately, but I do remember Venia talking about how he managed to play a bunch of games with Dabuz in friendlies afterwards and made Dabuz realize a couple things. If i'm remembering correctly, Dabuz listed Rosalina - Greninja as even on his previous MU chart, but interesting to see he is still sure of this placement.

As for the MU itself, it all comes down to how Greninja can deal with luma and it just so happens that he has quite a few options for doing so. Greninja can tumble luma at 0 and send it flying with both Jabs, Dash Attack, and especially back air. He can crossup with bair and dash attack to make a little safer too. He can separate luma from Rosalina with a quick f-throw (which will toss Rosa away before luma can act) and then just uptilt bair luma for a kill. Rosalina also can struggle to get off the ledge without losing luma if done properly. If you do some chip damage with shurikens on luma, fair can be an easy and safe option to hitting away luma as well. Greninja has the ability to take care of luma and the speed to just do it over and over again. He doesn't have to deviate far from his normal gameplan to remove luma either. Rosalina can't run away from Greninja and she's bound to get pressured, especially when she's in the air with her slow air/fall speed which makes it easy for Greninja to juggle or catch her landings, especially without luma there to interrupt him.

Rosalina is also super light. Any hit confirms into up-smash for example or getting upthrown can eliminate her stocks quite early. Even just catching her trying to drift away or land with an uptilt upair or up-smash will do the trick as well. Rosa down-b doesn't quite shut down shurikens, and depending on the range it can be risky and lead to a free grab (which can end up with her losing luma) if it gets baited out when Greninja is too close because of his speed. Mixing in different shuriken timings, short hop shuriken to hit her tall frame over luma, b-reverses, and in general tricky movement will make it hard for her to gravitational pull EVERY shuriken, and any that hit luma just make it that much easier for fair to start launching it later.

Not to mention she's quite susceptible to hydropump and Greninja's edge-guarding when she's offstage. A good HP angle can scoop her up past the ledge and make her land with a lot of endlag where she is super vulnerable. On the flip side, disadvantage is annoying with Rosalina's ability to juggle and edge-guard but the multitude of recovery mixups Rosalina can't all cover at once and Greninja's good airspeed/high jump/HP mixups/stalls to help get around landing traps make it not as bad as you'd think, especially if luma isn't in play atm when she's trying to do so. It's a MU not seen too often at a higher level though outside of like Stroder vs Falln, Venia vs Utopian Ray, and the few Rosalina's like Tatuman that Elexiao & iStudying fight in Europe unfortunately.

 

[BSP]

Can I add something new to the table?

Dabuz just released his new Rosalina MU chart!

pic.twitter.com/hw0zcWLL0e

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) October 10, 2017

I think with MU optimization, could get to that 55:45 group. I find it hard to believe that he's as limited as and in the MU.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I think with MU optimization, could get to that 55:45 group. I find it hard to believe that he's as limited as and in the MU.

I'd argue Doc in 6:4 is questionable.
He has an easier time getting rid Luma then half of the cast with B-air, Up-Smash, Up-B, B-Throw and Tornado.
She's light as hell, so a good Down-Fair without Luma equal a very early kill, not mention Tornado ruins Rosa's recovery.

I would say this MU isn't developed enough but that's just Doc as a whole. lol

 

[BSP]

I'd argue Doc in 6:4 is questionable.
He has an easier time getting rid Luma then half of the cast with B-air, Up-Smash, Up-B, B-Throw and Tornado.
She's light as hell, so a good Down-Fair without Luma equal a very early kill, not mention Tornado ruins Rosa's recovery.

I would say this MU isn't developed enough but that's just Doc as a whole. lol

Probably. Let me not act like I'm some Doc expert and know enough about him to compare his tools to Pac-Man's in a match up.

 

[|RK|]

CaptainZack is restating his belief that Fox isn't bad vs Bayo, and the MU is likely even.

 

[Lord Dio]

CaptainZack is restating his belief that Fox isn't bad vs Bayo, and the MU is likely even.

does he give reasons for this belief?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I know this isn't the thread for twitter stuff like this and I don't mean to keep posting this stuff but uhhh.... (If you can't access the link, due to Mario's hurtbox lifting off the ground during dash start up he literally can dash over a grounded Banana) can any other character do this?

https://mobile.twitter.com/BeefySmashDoods/status/918107792401158146

 

[Lord Dio]

Apparently it's only Mario.....
which is weird, and makes me wonder how it could affect the mu, particularly in the case of the 2016 Ally-ZeRo rivalry.......

 

[TigerBizNiz]

Can I add something new to the table?

Dabuz just released his new Rosalina MU chart!

pic.twitter.com/hw0zcWLL0e

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) October 10, 2017

Rosa Ness 55:45 though? Not sure how I feel about that.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Rosa Ness 55:45 though? Not sure how I feel about that.

It took time for me to understand why Dabuz would have that opinion, but then I realized that Ness can very much contest with Rosalina on stage and can 2-frame her recovery for free with down smash.

 

[TigerBizNiz]

It took time for me to understand why Dabuz would have that opinion, but then I realized that Ness can very much contest with Rosalina on stage and can 2-frame her recovery for free with down smash.

True. But I remember when people brought up this discussion in FOW's stream months back. Aside from the obvious gravity pull his recovery, FOW said Rosa's jabs beat out alot of Ness's options and not to mention her up air is really good at making it hard for Ness to land (and I remember people saying Ness's disadvantage state isn't too good). 55:45 just seems too optimistic. 60:40 to 70:30 sound more like reasonable guesses. It's not like it's unwinnable or anything!

But hey, I don't play either character so..

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Apparently it's only Mario.....
which is weird, and makes me wonder how it could affect the mu, particularly in the case of the 2016 Ally-ZeRo rivalry.......

Diddy as well and who knows maybe others maybe you can replicate it with different dash timing, etc. the BSD look to be researching it. Though Zero has said he doesn't use Banana in that MU so it probably won't affect him much.

Rosa Ness 55:45 though? Not sure how I feel about that.

Dabuz has gone on record of thinking well about Ness as a character. As PK Bash pointed out that MU can be very well doable by Ness, Down B is not the only thing about that matchup. A few Ness mains also do believe the same as Dabuz on this MU. I personally don't think it's 55:45 but worse but I would be very interested to hear what Dabuz thinks about the MU it may change my view of it.

 

[PK Bash]

Rosa Ness 55:45 though? Not sure how I feel about that.

The crux of Rosa/Ness as I understand it – with a focus on the Ness angle obviously - Ness has some excellent tools for this matchup and it's closer to even then it would appear at first glance.

When Luma is around, Ness in neutral wants to stay in a rough sort of range on the ground where he can space dash attack safely and use PK Fire without being hit by a burst option from Rosa. It sounds stupid that Ness even has to use PK Fire in the neutral as much as he does and I guess it kind of is, but it works because Rosalina has to respect it a lot. It’s a good way to put damage on to Luma and sets up a wall which Ness can use to limit Rosalina’s options. If Luma (or Rosa) is caught in PK Fire, there is very little Rosalina can actually do and Ness can go to town on the Luma with relative impunity.

Another important dynamic is being able to space Ness well in the air. If Ness is going to jump, he needs to jump so that he can react to Jabs with a falling up air/nair or drift backwards to safety and block a dash attack. This usually means Ness has to rely on fullhops.

Ness is able to get some mileage off of grabs even when Luma is around, but it is mostly a mixup and not the go-to since Ness can’t really do a Mario or Ike and use a throw hitbox to hit Luma away (dthrow has a hitbox but it does f.a.). What he can do is throw Rosalina up and then use the time while she slowly lands to address the Luma. Forward throw is used by some Ness, but in my opinion it’s worse unless Rosalina is sent far offstage, as it gives you less time to deal with Luma. The argument that it is optimal is that it puts Rosalina exactly where you need her to be (the corner/offstage). Which is great, but in my view, removing Luma is much more important at this stage.
What you don’t want to use is dthrow. Dthrow serves no purpose when Luma is around, throw combos do not work and Rosalina will reset to neutral too quickly.

Other tools Ness has to despatch Luma include Up Smash, pretty much every aerial, Down Smash, maybe Fsmash if you have time but you usually don’t, and sometimes jabs and ftilt/up tilt or PK Thunder if you’re on the ledge.
This gives us:
-Dash Attack
-PK Fire (which is so much better here in every way compared to other matchups)
-Back Air
-Up Air
-N-air
-Down Smash
-Up Smash
As the main anti-Luma tools. And most of them are really good at that job without compromising Ness unreasonably.
Obviously Rosalina can work around these options too but the main point is that Ness has got what he needs to play a sound neutral game vs Rosalina with Luma.

Once Ness has removed Luma, Ness’ real gameplan will kick into gear. Neutral is so much easier to play without Luma obviously, Rosalina is immediately limited in how she can contest Ness’ neutral tools. Ness now sets the pace and can open up Rosalina, bait or force reactions and get her into the corner or offstage using his standard neutral tools and his movement (mainly his initial dash and short hop stuff)

What a lot of Ness’ do wrong in the neutral is knock Rosalina away, then immediately go into shield when in fact, there is a very large window to hit Luma. Another common mistake is maintaining the wrong range and relying too much on shorthop aerials to remove Luma. They’re OK if they will send Luma miles away since all Rosa is going to get on Ness is a dash attack or dash grab, but people pick their moments badly. You don’t want to risk a dash grab if it’s going to send you offstage and force you to jump to get back, for example.

Offstage, Rosalina is basically dead. The aim is to use a move like PK Thunder to prevent an up B and force Rosalina into a Gravitational Pull (or Airdodge, or straight-up just falling) after she has used her jump, and then punish up B with the back hit of down smash (the window for which being very lenient because Rosalina pops above the ledge and lacks a hitbox on up B) to end the stock.
Simple yet effective.
If she does get back, transition to a ledgetrap - Ness is already on the stage, after all, and has some amazing ledgetrapping options which Rosa can do little to circumvent.

Disadvantage against Rosalina is pretty horrible and it isn’t just GP and up airs. Up airs are huge though. Because Rosa can float so low below Ness and use disjointed up airs it’s extremely difficult for Ness to get under Rosalina and get to the floor – ESPECIALLY if Luma is around to cover one side. Quite often, getting around it involves using an airdodge and drifting with the airdodge around Rosalina to try and get behind her, but this is only really effective if you read the up air. The key is only airdodging when Rosalina jumps, and not before.

Ledgetraps are strong against Ness, but Ness has one of the best anti-Luma tools for this situation in the game, in the form of PK Thunder. It’s not foolproof but it must be respected. If you can PKT Luma and send it offstage, dealing with the SoRo ledgetrap is… still hard but markedly easier.

GP gimps are stupid, but the amount of times I’ve seen Rosalina screw this up and die whilst Ness gets back is astounding. Also you need to be careful not to Pull PKT through Ness, because it will hit him and he can up B again. Ness does at least have more options to mix up his recovery vs Rosa than vice versa, where Ness can force a very specific recovery from Rosalina.

So hopefully that has cleared up Ness’ good tools for the matchup and might shed some light on why Dabuz has not listed it as a 7-3. Rosa with Luma screws Ness up and forces him to waste time in a matchup where one neutral loss can be the death of him. Yet he can play around the Luma super well and if he gets rid of it, Ness is going to set the tempo of neutral. Ness also only has to win neutral once or twice to end a stock… at least in theory. The matchup is always going to be in favour of Rosalina (and I would argue slightly more than 55:45) because greater ease of access than Ness to her (probably slightly stronger) advantage state, due to how Luma skews things. But the tides can change so rapidly in the matchup that it’s closer to even than it first appears.

If you want a good example of how Ness can play neutral against Rosalina with Luma, S1 is probably the Ness with the best neutral vs the character. https://youtu.be/TJclpYCsIfM?t=2m39s (starts at game 2; Tatuman went Falcon game 1) I feel S1 could sometimes be getting more out of advantage state but the way he plays the neutral (with or without Luma), and his decision-making in neutral, is second to none as far as I’m concerned and I love that he focuses on getting Luma out of there.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Hippieslayer
When you corrected my post, how do you think I should have re-worded my question without sounding crazy and mean?

Uh something like "not to imply x just wondering" I guess? Don't worry about it my reply was probably overaggressive I totally misinterpreted your intent.

 

[|RK|]

does he give reasons for this belief?

Basically, he says Fox does better than Rosa in the Bayo MU.

He agrees with someone else saying Fox's momentum makes the MU really volatile. His damage off of one neutral exchange is also better than Rosa against Bayo. He said it was hell pre-patch and a year ago when Bayo's innovated faster than others adapted.

And then:

While they are pretty detrimental to fox they actually have counter play. Sdi the fair string up and you don't get faired into the blastzone

— CaptainZack (@CaptainZack_) October 11, 2017

 

[blackghost]

bayo counterplay seems to have truly arrived. now we can actually begin to assess her mu chart and results will not be inflated anymore. i think we are all in for some surprises long term.

 

[Bigbomb2]

I guess blowing T away at Civil War convinced Dabuz that Link is booty in the MU lol. I know T has sets off Kirihara though. Pretty sure that MU changes wildly based on how both players play.

 

[TigerBizNiz]

The crux of Rosa/Ness as I understand it – with a focus on the Ness angle obviously - Ness has some excellent tools for this matchup and it's closer to even then it would appear at first glance.

When Luma is around, Ness in neutral wants to stay in a rough sort of range on the ground where he can space dash attack safely and use PK Fire without being hit by a burst option from Rosa. It sounds stupid that Ness even has to use PK Fire in the neutral as much as he does and I guess it kind of is, but it works because Rosalina has to respect it a lot. It’s a good way to put damage on to Luma and sets up a wall which Ness can use to limit Rosalina’s options. If Luma (or Rosa) is caught in PK Fire, there is very little Rosalina can actually do and Ness can go to town on the Luma with relative impunity.

Another important dynamic is being able to space Ness well in the air. If Ness is going to jump, he needs to jump so that he can react to Jabs with a falling up air/nair or drift backwards to safety and block a dash attack. This usually means Ness has to rely on fullhops.

Ness is able to get some mileage off of grabs even when Luma is around, but it is mostly a mixup and not the go-to since Ness can’t really do a Mario or Ike and use a throw hitbox to hit Luma away (dthrow has a hitbox but it does f.a.). What he can do is throw Rosalina up and then use the time while she slowly lands to address the Luma. Forward throw is used by some Ness, but in my opinion it’s worse unless Rosalina is sent far offstage, as it gives you less time to deal with Luma. The argument that it is optimal is that it puts Rosalina exactly where you need her to be (the corner/offstage). Which is great, but in my view, removing Luma is much more important at this stage.
What you don’t want to use is dthrow. Dthrow serves no purpose when Luma is around, throw combos do not work and Rosalina will reset to neutral too quickly.

Other tools Ness has to despatch Luma include Up Smash, pretty much every aerial, Down Smash, maybe Fsmash if you have time but you usually don’t, and sometimes jabs and ftilt/up tilt or PK Thunder if you’re on the ledge.
This gives us:
-Dash Attack
-PK Fire (which is so much better here in every way compared to other matchups)
-Back Air
-Up Air
-N-air
-Down Smash
-Up Smash
As the main anti-Luma tools. And most of them are really good at that job without compromising Ness unreasonably.
Obviously Rosalina can work around these options too but the main point is that Ness has got what he needs to play a sound neutral game vs Rosalina with Luma.

Once Ness has removed Luma, Ness’ real gameplan will kick into gear. Neutral is so much easier to play without Luma obviously, Rosalina is immediately limited in how she can contest Ness’ neutral tools. Ness now sets the pace and can open up Rosalina, bait or force reactions and get her into the corner or offstage using his standard neutral tools and his movement (mainly his initial dash and short hop stuff)

What a lot of Ness’ do wrong in the neutral is knock Rosalina away, then immediately go into shield when in fact, there is a very large window to hit Luma. Another common mistake is maintaining the wrong range and relying too much on shorthop aerials to remove Luma. They’re OK if they will send Luma miles away since all Rosa is going to get on Ness is a dash attack or dash grab, but people pick their moments badly. You don’t want to risk a dash grab if it’s going to send you offstage and force you to jump to get back, for example.

Offstage, Rosalina is basically dead. The aim is to use a move like PK Thunder to prevent an up B and force Rosalina into a Gravitational Pull (or Airdodge, or straight-up just falling) after she has used her jump, and then punish up B with the back hit of down smash (the window for which being very lenient because Rosalina pops above the ledge and lacks a hitbox on up B) to end the stock.
Simple yet effective.
If she does get back, transition to a ledgetrap - Ness is already on the stage, after all, and has some amazing ledgetrapping options which Rosa can do little to circumvent.

Disadvantage against Rosalina is pretty horrible and it isn’t just GP and up airs. Up airs are huge though. Because Rosa can float so low below Ness and use disjointed up airs it’s extremely difficult for Ness to get under Rosalina and get to the floor – ESPECIALLY if Luma is around to cover one side. Quite often, getting around it involves using an airdodge and drifting with the airdodge around Rosalina to try and get behind her, but this is only really effective if you read the up air. The key is only airdodging when Rosalina jumps, and not before.

Ledgetraps are strong against Ness, but Ness has one of the best anti-Luma tools for this situation in the game, in the form of PK Thunder. It’s not foolproof but it must be respected. If you can PKT Luma and send it offstage, dealing with the SoRo ledgetrap is… still hard but markedly easier.

GP gimps are stupid, but the amount of times I’ve seen Rosalina screw this up and die whilst Ness gets back is astounding. Also you need to be careful not to Pull PKT through Ness, because it will hit him and he can up B again. Ness does at least have more options to mix up his recovery vs Rosa than vice versa, where Ness can force a very specific recovery from Rosalina.

So hopefully that has cleared up Ness’ good tools for the matchup and might shed some light on why Dabuz has not listed it as a 7-3. Rosa with Luma screws Ness up and forces him to waste time in a matchup where one neutral loss can be the death of him. Yet he can play around the Luma super well and if he gets rid of it, Ness is going to set the tempo of neutral. Ness also only has to win neutral once or twice to end a stock… at least in theory. The matchup is always going to be in favour of Rosalina (and I would argue slightly more than 55:45) because greater ease of access than Ness to her (probably slightly stronger) advantage state, due to how Luma skews things. But the tides can change so rapidly in the matchup that it’s closer to even than it first appears.

If you want a good example of how Ness can play neutral against Rosalina with Luma, S1 is probably the Ness with the best neutral vs the character. https://youtu.be/TJclpYCsIfM?t=2m39s (starts at game 2; Tatuman went Falcon game 1) I feel S1 could sometimes be getting more out of advantage state but the way he plays the neutral (with or without Luma), and his decision-making in neutral, is second to none as far as I’m concerned and I love that he focuses on getting Luma out of there.

Good points! I have actually been noticing lately that Ness players have gotten alot better at the mu and not getting bodied as badly as they used to. (Though I still think it's a solid 60:40. Not bad, still doable). I might be a tad bias towards Rosa though. I think she's 5th best right now and didn't think she deserved to get dropped down on the current tier list to begin with.

I still don't understand why Dabuz has Rosa Fox at "even or Fox favor" though. Does Fox have some undiscovered tools lately to deal with Luma that I haven't heard of? I've played this mu on and off for the past year and I gotta say.. it's a pain in the ***!!! Most Fox players have it at either even and in Rosa's favor. I'm just sitting here trying to figure out how Fox deals with Luma in neutral for him to have the possibility of winning that mu.

 

[Jaguar360]

Good points! I have actually been noticing lately that Ness players have gotten alot better at the mu and not getting bodied as badly as they used to. (Though I still think it's a solid 60:40. Not bad, still doable). I might be a tad bias towards Rosa though. I think she's 5th best right now and didn't think she deserved to get dropped down on the current tier list to begin with.

I still don't understand why Dabuz has Rosa Fox at "even or Fox favor" though. Does Fox have some undiscovered tools lately to deal with Luma that I haven't heard of? I've played this mu on and off for the past year and I gotta say.. it's a pain in the ***!!! Most Fox players have it at either even and in Rosa's favor. I'm just sitting here trying to figure out how Fox deals with Luma in neutral for him to have the possibility of winning that mu.

My guess on Fox would be that he's a very oppressive character at the ledge and at juggling, which are the two areas where Rosalina struggles the most. The fact that she's so light and has such a large hurtbox to see hit with a bunch of up airs and back airs from Fox in disadvantage, means that she has to win neutral and maintain advantage so long before Fox kills her in a juggle/ledge trap. Similar reasons at to why Cloud would do well against Rosa but without the disjoints and as much Luma pressure.

 

[|RK|]

Good points! I have actually been noticing lately that Ness players have gotten alot better at the mu and not getting bodied as badly as they used to. (Though I still think it's a solid 60:40. Not bad, still doable). I might be a tad bias towards Rosa though. I think she's 5th best right now and didn't think she deserved to get dropped down on the current tier list to begin with.

I still don't understand why Dabuz has Rosa Fox at "even or Fox favor" though. Does Fox have some undiscovered tools lately to deal with Luma that I haven't heard of? I've played this mu on and off for the past year and I gotta say.. it's a pain in the ***!!! Most Fox players have it at either even and in Rosa's favor. I'm just sitting here trying to figure out how Fox deals with Luma in neutral for him to have the possibility of winning that mu.

I can make a couple of guesses.

1) Rosa has one of the worst disadvantage state of any top tier. Fox has one of the best advantage states.

2) Fox's speed makes neutral a little harder for Rosa, Luma or no. You can't react to every possible mixup a good Fox player will throw at you.

3) Once you've failed to appropriately stop one approach, sit back and enjoy 1).

There may be other things there, but that's my *guess*.

 

[Scot B]

Luigi as a character is showing what he is truly capable of now more than ever before. The way I look at it is Luigi got balanced, not nerfed. If you go back and look at the last changes they made to him you will see they buffed his down air and Up B hitboxes, but made his down throw work more like other characters. This indirectly buffed his combo game and created a new low percent death combo (Poke combo). Although he is harder to play now, he rewards good execution unlike any other character in the game. He is nowhere near optimized and has a ton of room to grow.

All it takes is one person to show just how good a character can be, be patient and do not give up on who you play!

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Rosa has the worst disadvantage state of any top tier. Fox has one of the best.

How is this for the latter? He's pathetically easy to combo and has an extremely linear recovery with a long-lasting charge hitbox on his Up B which makes it extremely gimpable any time he's forced to use it.

 

[|RK|]

How is this for the latter? He's pathetically easy to combo and has an extremely linear recovery with a long-lasting charge hitbox on his Up B which makes it extremely gimpable any time he's forced to use it.

WHOOPS! I MISSED WORDS

I meant to say Fox has an incredible advantage state and Rosa's disadvantage is trash. Apologies.

 

[TigerBizNiz]

My guess on Fox would be that he's a very oppressive character at the ledge and at juggling, which are the two areas where Rosalina struggles the most. The fact that she's so light and has such a large hurtbox to see hit with a bunch of up airs and back airs from Fox in disadvantage, means that she has to win neutral and maintain advantage so long before Fox kills her in a juggle/ledge trap. Similar reasons at to why Cloud would do well against Rosa but without the disjoints and as much Luma pressure.

This reply is to both Jaguar & RK (I don't feel like multi-quoting)

I'm definitely aware of Fox's juggles and ledge traps on Rosa (trust me, I try to take advantage of them the chances I get!). I do feel that Rosa kinda balances this out by being able to juggle him back with her up airs and ledge traps of her own. Rosa reads Fox's side B recovery, down tilt. Rosa reads Fox's up B recovery, free down air spike. If Fox manages to grab the ledge, Luma can jab next to the ledge making hard for Fox to get back on the stage. I think Fox Rosa is even in terms of advantage/disadvantage state.

Neutral, though, is where I'm torn at. In my experience, I've just always struggled to get past Luma in neutral. Most Rosa players usually stay grounded in neutral with Luma well spaced in front of them and wait for me to make the approach. Lasers won't force Rosa to approach for obvious reasons. Bairs, Ftilts, and Uptilts don't knockback Luma. Full jabs and smash attack can work on Luma, but you will get punished by Rosa. Fthrow on Rosa can work as it knocks back Luma, but that's if you can get a grab on Rosa. Dash attack can work too, but Fox's dash attack suppose to be a punish move, not an approach option. Overall, the neutral is what keeps me from thinking Fox wins this mu. Luma is the wild card basically.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Dabuz had a discussion recently with the Rosalina discord to try and theory craft ways to make the Fox MU more bearable in his eyes. He had a few complaints about it.

1. He finds the speed of Fox makes it extremely difficult to actually wall Fox out. Fox's moves also are particularly good at launching Luma when they are hit so it's bad to get hit even once.

2. Rosa seems to lack good Non committal options for stopping a Fox jumping in with AC Dair or SH Nair. He says his jump ins are pretty much unreactable.

3. Once Rosa is in disadvantage he really can't think of ways to escape. Recovering if extremely difficuylt, landing is extremely difficult, and getting off of the ledge is difficult.

Those were some of his bigger complaints about the MU. Granted he did find a few answers to some of these, but he thinks optimization will come from pushing the advantage like other commenters above said. He thinks disadvantage doesn't have much advancement to be made at least for now.

 

[TigerBizNiz]

Has Dabuz discussed stage picks in his discussion? Fox could always jump over Luma, but if she's under a platform (Battlefield for example) that gives her time to punish Fox's above approach options. That leaves Fox to either dash attack through Luma or just run in and fthrow her. I mean, they do take stage counter picks in account to mu discussions, right? Now admittedly, Fox does benefit with platforms (seriously, Fox with platforms in advantage state make him godlike!). It's more so the neutral state between them that's has me scratching my head at that placement (and neutral is VERY important in this game).

But on the topic of Fox eliminating Luma, here's a small sample of My Smash Corner briefly mentioning it. Play around 6:14 -6:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEIHfqCb1a0

(I actually forgot about dair lol, learning something new every day!)

But hey, I might be more inexperienced in the mu than I thought I was and may need to explore it more. MUs, in general, are changing as the meta game grows! Fox players are even debating whether or not if Fox still loses the Kirby mu or not!

 

[TDK]

FE Saga pools are out! 3 advance per pool, one in winners and two in losers. "FE Warriors" indicates notable FE character mains who aren't slated to make it out.

B1: MKLeo vs Rich Brown , Vinnie in losers
FE Warriors: Mugi
B2: Nairo vs Locus , Nicko in losers
FE Warriors: Muj , Mad Ice King
B3: Salem vs Xzax , Stroder in losers
FE Warriors: Promaelia , Nojinko , Ike Tyson
B4: Larry Lurr vs Ryuga , False in losers
FE Warriors: Waldo
B5: Tweek vs Earth , Eon in losers
FE Warriors: Rameses
B6: KEN vs 6WX , Ac in losers
FE Warriors: Yura , Kogarasuma , Athena
B7: VoiD vs Javi , Ryo in losers
FE Warriors: Mr. ii
B8: Komorikiri vs JK , Pugwest in losers
FE Warriors: None

C1: Mistake vs NAKAT , Tyrant in losers
FE Warriors: None
C2: Kirihara vs Falln , Captain Levi in losrs
FE Warriors: None
C3: Cosmos vs Static Manny , San in losers
FE Warriors: Plastic Poptart
C4: Elegant vs Mr. E , Ke-ya in losers
FE Warriors: Tsunayoshi
C5: Shuton vs Charliedaking , Bedgar in losers
FE Warriors: None
C6: ANTi vs Zenyou , YOC in losers
FE Warriors: None
C7: WaDi vs Samsora , K9Sbruce in losers
FE Warriors: VeXx
C8: Captain Zack vs Abadango , TLTC in losers
FE Warriors: Dath , SM , Shoghi

Interestingly, with neither ZeRo, Ally, or Dabuz in attendance, someone new gets a guaraunteed qualification into the 2GG circuit. My money's on Leo.

 

[Galaxeon]

FE Saga pools are out! 3 advance per pool, one in winners and two in losers. "FE Warriors" indicates notable FE character mains who aren't slated to make it out.

B6: KEN vs 6WX
B7: VoiD vs Javi

C2: Kirihara vs Falln

C6: ANTi vs Zenyou
C8: Captain Zack vs Abadango

... It's like they did it on purpose. All those team-kills are just super painful to see. In that aspect, this is one of the worst initial seedings we've seen so far, isn't it?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

... It's like they did it on purpose. All those team-kills are just super painful to see. In that aspect, this is one of the worst initial seedings we've seen so far, isn't it?

At least the team kills are not for the characters promoted by the saga . Unlike the saga for a certian ninja frog

 

[TDK]

At least the team kills are not for the characters promoted by the saga . Unlike the saga for a certian ninja frog

It's still annoying, especially when some of these characters have their only notable reps in attendance having to teamkill each other.

The FE cast mains not being balanced out throughout the pools especially well also bugs me.

 

[Lord Dio]

The FE cast mains not being balanced out throughout the pools especially well also bugs me.

sorry, I'm lost, can you explain?

Tbh I'd rather have character teamkills than FE teamkills, which of course WILL happen because there's so many FE characters here.

 

[The-Technique]

Mr. ii is actually attending? It's been ages since he competed here, and he eliminated Nairo that time. Excited to see how far he makes it

 

[Yonder]

FE Saga pools are out! 3 advance per pool, one in winners and two in losers. "FE Warriors" indicates notable FE character mains who aren't slated to make it out.

B1: MKLeo vs Rich Brown , Vinnie in losers
FE Warriors: Mugi
B2: Nairo vs Locus , Nicko in losers
FE Warriors: Muj , Mad Ice King
B3: Salem vs Xzax , Stroder in losers
FE Warriors: Promaelia , Nojinko
B4: Larry Lurr vs Ryuga , False in losers
FE Warriors: Waldo
B5: Tweek vs Earth , Eon in losers
FE Warriors: Rameses
B6: KEN vs 6WX , Ac in losers
FE Warriors: Yura , Kogarasuma , Athena
B7: VoiD vs Javi , Ryo in losers
FE Warriors: Mr. ii
B8: Komorikiri vs JK , Pugwest in losers
FE Warriors: None

C1: Mistake vs NAKAT , Tyrant in losers
FE Warriors: None
C2: Kirihara vs Falln , Captain Levi in losrs
FE Warriors: None
C3: Cosmos vs Static Manny :4sonic, San in losers
FE Warriors: Plastic Poptart
C4: Elegant vs Mr. E , Ke-ya in losers
FE Warriors: Tsunayoshi
C5: Shuton vs Charliedaking , Bedgar in losers
FE Warriors: None
C6: ANTi vs Zenyou , YOC in losers
FE Warriors: None
C7: WaDi vs Samsora , K9Sbruce in losers
FE Warriors: VeXx
C8: Captain Zack vs Abadango , TLTC in losers
FE Warriors: Dath , SM , Shoghi

Interestingly, with neither ZeRo, Ally, or Dabuz in attendance, someone new gets a guaraunteed qualification into the 2GG circuit. My money's on Leo.

Maybe Elegant will retain his hot streak, considering GTX was basically anyone's to win between him and Leo. C4 is basically free for him. Most of the heaviest hitters are in B bracket. I can't see elegant losing to anyone in all of C bracket except for maybe Wadi or Abadango because Luigi doesn't have a great track record vs Mewtwo. I could see Wadi giving Elegant trouble more than Aba. The Rosas can be problematic too.

 

[Minordeth]

Cosmos vs San is gonna be really interesting. I haven't really seen the Ike/Corrin MU at the top level, so I'm intrigued. Neither of them can poke or counter poke each other on the ground, but Ike probably has a better ground game due to his better jab coupled with his semi-grappler follow ups.

Both have booty landing options, though, although Ike can probably mix it up against Corrin a little better with his greater horizontal movement with Side B.

Corrin can combo Ike for days, but has to be careful with dash to shield mixups since Ike has a potent grab game which he can also kill with.

I'd have to check hitboxes to see who outranges who.

I'd probably give the edge to Corrin, because 17% DFS and tipper pin shenanigans, but Ike can eruption Corrin free, so...

As for the player MU... Cosmos needs to reeeeallllyyy study how San plays, because the man autopilots way less than most and his trap game is potent. SGK got rolled because she didn't know what to do, and San capitalized on that. You can't really roll Ike for free unless you are Loser's Bracket Larry.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Neither of them can poke or counter poke each other on the ground

Ike's down tilt is pretty good, m8.

 

[Minordeth]

Ike's down tilt is pretty good, m8.

I know.

It's not a poke, though.

You asked what a poke was before, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you didn't read the answers to that question.

Ike's dtilt functions much like a launcher. Pivot dtilt is super good for catching dash-ins, but Corrin's initial dash is short and fast, that it doesn't take much to bait dtilt. If she does, then she can punish with instapin since Ike's dtilt is -8. Even if Corrin is slow and Ike shields the pin, he can't do much about it, so staying in pin range for any large amount of time is a bad idea for Ike. It sets up too much for Corrin.