Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[TigerBizNiz]

Honestly, I'm just stoked for the mere fact we have 3 players in top 48. As a person who plays Ike quite alot on the side, that warms my heart. I've had many people discussing about whether or not Ike should be considered a low tier instead of where he's at now. Hopefully this sheds some light that Ike still has some level of relevancy in the meta and he's not falling off anytime soon! San and Ryo have been inactive for such a long period of time from majors. Hopefully they showcase more of what Ike is capable of as well as other Ike players who are on the rise!

But yea, I'm sadden about not making it out of pools as well. There's definitely going to be talks about his position in the current meta. It's a shame cuz I actually like his concept as a character!

 

[The-Technique]

Honestly, I'm just stoked for the mere fact we have 3 players in top 48. As a person who plays Ike quite alot on the side, that warms my heart. I've had many people discussing about whether or not Ike should be considered a low tier instead of where he's at now. Hopefully this sheds some light that Ike still has some level of relevancy in the meta and he's not falling off anytime soon! San and Ryo have been inactive for such a long period of time from majors. Hopefully they showcase more of what Ike is capable of as well as other Ike players who are on the rise!

But yea, I'm sadden about not making it out of pools as well. There's definitely going to be talks about his position in the current meta. It's a shame cuz I actually like his concept as a character!

Tsk it's a damn shame San got team killed by Mr. E. I'm happy to see a Marth/Lucina main in winner's and that Mr. E will finally have a chance at making a deep run in a major, but still...unfortunate that the two OG Brawl vets had to fight to stay in Winners.

 

[Kofu]

nojinko got bodied btw went 1-2

I realized as much. Guess SDI skills don't translate into being great at the rest of the game, who'da thunk?

 

[Rizen]

Ike's lower mid tier.

What makes Sonic players so patient and Falcon players so aggressive?

As mobile as CF is, Sonic's in a class of his own. CF being a tall character with huge attacks and dash grab lends its self more to a kill or be killed meta, which has been true of him since ssb64. Sonic's harder to hit and better at weaving around attacks, CF tends to rush in.

 

[Nobie]

1) Did Nojinko really lose to a Yoshi player? That's kind of the last matchup I'd expect Ike to get beat in.

2) I think the tendency for Smash 4 players to be "lazy," so to speak, is that stuff like tech skill has a less dramatic impact on winning and losing. Learning tech skill in Melee can give you like a 50% boost, while in Smash 4 it's more like 10% (these are made-up numbers). This is something i like about Smash 4, but I can see people going "90% is good enough" and resting on their laurels. Maybe until someone shows that some tech is the difference between winning a tournament and not, players will stay comfortable.

3) I feel like excessive camping has been proven in Smash 4 to only take you so far. Over the life of this game, players like @Dabuz have talked about how even defensive-style players need SOME aggression. Static Manny has even thrown in some aggression, either in his Sonic or especially in his Roy. A lot of the early camping in Smash 4 was also because people didn't understand the game as well. When approaching is still a magical mystery and you don't know what to expect, tournament players will tend to err on the side of caution.

If people are talking about defensive play AT ALL scaring viewers off, then it's just the same old song and dance. In those cases, people are more addicted to "hype" then they are seeing who wins.

 

[soniczx123]

What makes Sonic players so patient and Falcon players so aggressive?

Falcon having a better dash, burst speed and dash grab along with better hitboxes overall with better ACs and horizontal range allows him to be more aggressive than Sonic. It's all by design too.

 

[Egghead]

With all the fire emblem character representation hype Id rather see agressive, hype characters have better results because a major reason for underpresented characters to be cheered for is becasue they are underrepresented or they are a low tier(which kind of go hand in hand). I would much rather have an mkleo-esque cloud that can constantly place pressure, dash forward instead of a fe character such as robin who uses projectiles and his/her character to character interactions are minimal which makes it alll the less fun to watch. Although most fe characters are pretty engaging so this paragraph is about overly hyped low tier rep

 

[|RK|]

Love this post. Reason why I like watching older games.

So, Salem said fox is basically like sonic but "viable"? Since when has sonic ever been out of top tier, much less viable?

Salem thinks Sonic is bad. Has thought that for a while.

 

[MERPIS]

Salem thinks Sonic is bad. Has thought that for a while.

salem is the lord of bad opinions nowadays aside from ESAM

 

[Diddy Kong]

Honestly, I'm just stoked for the mere fact we have 3 players in top 48. As a person who plays Ike quite alot on the side, that warms my heart. I've had many people discussing about whether or not Ike should be considered a low tier instead of where he's at now. Hopefully this sheds some light that Ike still has some level of relevancy in the meta and he's not falling off anytime soon! San and Ryo have been inactive for such a long period of time from majors. Hopefully they showcase more of what Ike is capable of as well as other Ike players who are on the rise!

Oh that's good news! Am also strongly fond of Ike. But for many, he's just not worth the effort if you can have a pocket Cloud and basically be way more effective. I think Ike lost a lot because of Cloud. He's a faster Ike with a projectile more or less... What's extta sad is that Sakurai and the gang rebalanced Ike as a slow powerhouse and deliberately didn't give him a projectile because it'd be OP

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I thibk that the fear of camping and losing viewers is why we got Duck Hunt banned.

 

[InfinitySoul]

I thibk that the fear of camping and losing viewers is why we got Duck Hunt banned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWlmlqhqytY

D1 interview by Yahoo esport on the ban of Duck hunt / Lylat.

The two reasons for Duck hunt ban he brings are "some characters kill off the top early", "it promotes camping".

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lord Dio
Brawl just has so many issues. Mainly it just does not reward intelligent play enough. Off stage you are rewarded for egdeguarding much more so then Smash 4, but that is it. Single strikes are more damaging for sure, but being able to interrupt hitstun with an airdodge is nuts. MK was so dominant not just because he was broken, but because he had solid consistent answers to all the defensive options and could still play a strong control game. Marth was another one with solid stats all around backed up by broken moves. Many characters were just left behind due to poor stats. Mid tier and below simply did NOT exists. IC's weren't even THAT good, but getting grabs was CAKE vs majority of the cast. Diddy was solid, but double nana controls was...well bananas.

Basically Brawl by design is defensive as all hell and the characters that could combat that or thrive on it were the top tiers.

Defensive play is not bad by nature. It's just one style of play. Brawl's issue was that it did not give you enough universal tools to deal with it and this really reflected in the tiers. Yes MK and IC's were a problem, but the game itself was just flawed.

 

[Minordeth]

I don’t really know or care where Ike is on the tier list, but he is a solid character. Cosmos and San basically went how I thought it would, mostly because San is a more experienced tournament player than Cosmos, and unless you know how top Ike can mess up your day, you will probably get rolled.

Ike has a lot of deceptively safe aerials and knowing what is punishable is key.

Side note - this applies universally, of course. You should always know what your opponent’s character can do to you, even if they are low-tier.

Not knowing his 50/50 is gonna hurt. His Fair is about the same range as Clouds and easier to auto cancel (IMO). He has (slightly) better shield safety with his aerials than Marth and people forget that. Ike is all about conditioning, since he doesn’t have the buttons to overwhelm, but does have the autocancels. And if the player is experienced...

Basically, he may be low-mid tier or mid tier or whatever, but if your opponent is top tier, you better be up on both MUs.

You can’t play to win if you don’t study to win.

 

[MERPIS]

I thibk that the fear of camping and losing viewers is why we got Duck Hunt banned.

and the same thing is happening with bayonetta, whenever she appears in a top 8 or whatever there's quite a lot of viewers that leave the stream.

 

[Heracr055]

and the same thing is happening with bayonetta, whenever she appears in a top 8 or whatever there's quite a lot of viewers that leave the stream.

These people who hate Bayo and camping/timeout strategies need to grow up and realize that people should be doing whatever is necessary to win. I actually find the potential timeout strategies implemented by Bayo players (Salem) and Japanese Sonics (Komo) to be very enjoyable to watch. Their opponents, when they sense this is happening while the Bayo/camper tacks on chip damage with relative safety, often forces panic on their part. Then you get to see them destroy themselves

Edit: I also enjoy watching Bayo in general play. It's nice to see what she's capable of

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I thibk that the fear of camping and losing viewers is why we got Duck Hunt banned.

Losing viewers was a smaller part but the camping was the main issue, circle camping in particular was just too strong, many people just auto banned the stage. I don't even think Little Mac can double jump to the tree. That kind of camping isn't healthy for a meta's growth.

Camping is fine the opinions of a handful of twitch stream monsters whose "competitive" experience consists entirely of For Glory do not define the actual community as a. Now while I don't enjoying camping my self I understand when it's optimal and should be utilized however if your community as a whole doesn't find it enjoyable then you do have a problem that should be addressed, smash doesn't have the kind of financial incentive to where the majority of us who play would play it if we didn't enjoy it. As long as the camping isn't A. Creating a overpowered or overcenterlizing meta that has no counter play or B. Is totally killing the fun of the game to the majority who play it, then nothing is wrong with it.

 

[Egghead]

Playing to win is fine, the top players can do whatever they want as long as it is within the rules and if the rules permit them to do so then so be it. But wasnt isnt benefical is not changing the rules. Now a large amonut of support that competitive play gets is the viewers and participants, by making the experiece boring with camping and whatnot will decrease viewership attendance etc because noone will pay just to get lamed out in bracket and play friendlies. And when people say the enjoy watching the micro interactions when characters such as bayo or sonic camp, when other characters play such as falcon vs fox(obviously this is extreme but you get the point) there are many other interactions. Now I think that most poeple find having more interactions more enoyable and whatnot instead of getting chip damage.

 

[Laken64]

Welp since I'm stuck on a bus for 3 hours here's your pin breakdown for FE saga. note that I'll be mainly going over grounded pin since it's what many people struggle with it.

So pin is main burst option that slightly negates Corrin's lackluster mobility and movement as well as being a amazing punish and damage racking tool not to mention it's KO power at higher percents, but there are more flaws to the move than you think there is which I'll bring up in multiple points:

It is very unsafe on shield: -13 to be exact when pin hits your shield and this is before Corrin can even do an action out of it (front kick, back kick ect.) Which means anything under 13 frames OoS can punish the instapin before Corrin can even do this, but the catch is that you have to be ready for the pin in advance or even better: bait the pin and punish. Characters like ect. Have the speed to punish and even KILL corrin OoS if you bait pin out (Limit could LCS through it free and it's a easy stock) (Also note that Corrin's hand the black part of pin becomes a extra hurtbox for corrin)

Pin is a hard commitment: It is not a poke or something you can just throw out. On whiff or on shield (provided the opponent doesn't punish it Oos with the stuff I said earlier) Corrin is left in a extremely limited position with three options, two (jump front kick) which are easily punishable and one that gives up stage control and isn't even safe in some mus ( ect. are very notible examples of characters that will always punish a back kick) which means when Corrin is at high percents Pin becomes more risky of an option to use unless you're punishing your opponent which is the main use of pin, because you give your opponent free stage control and put yourself in a worse position than before ( can just upsmash you for free tbh)

Staling, priority and mispinning: Not sure if anyone knows this but if you hit the intital pin + the kick the move stales twice, so if you successfully use pin twice you've staled it four times (which is the main reason you see some characters not die to pin when you think they should). Pin also has item priority like DFS which means any hitboxes can beat the move so technically you could throw out a constant hitbox and beat pin (not sure if you should actually aim for that, baiting it to whiff or punish is better Imo). Lastly there is mispinning were if you pin too close to them you can't hit them with the kick hitboxes and they basically escape for free and Corrin basically gives up stage control for no good reason

That's pretty much it. Ask me questions or if there's something you want to point out and argue I'll listen and try my best to answer
Nah I actually did it after 3+ months lol
Also mobile sucks

 

[TDK]

I thibk that the fear of camping and losing viewers is why we got Duck Hunt banned.

Duck Hunt was banned for easy circle camping, as well as the tree being an incredibly strong position for whoever got there first. Around a third of the cast needed to automatically ban it to not get camped out for six minutes with little to no way to stop it.

 

[Tizio Random]

Jupiter League XXI (15/10/2017, 46 Entrants) - Italy

1st: G-danzee
2nd: Meercko ()
3rd: TylerDX
4th: Sim-Max
5th: Genarog
5th: Oro ()
7th: Twelve
7th: Tsurugi

I know @Das Koopa sometimes uses results from tournaments from smaller regions so I decided to post this as it was incredibly stacked with PR'd players. Characters in brackets could have been used or not to win a game.

 

[The-Technique]

And Shuton breaks Ryuga's streak with a reverse 3-0 by....counterpicking with Shulk?

Watching this set, this is actually a matchup where Corrin's poor mobility really hurts

 

[Nah]

Welp since I'm stuck on a bus for 3 hours here's your pin breakdown for FE saga. note that I'll be mainly going over grounded pin since it's what many people struggle with it.

So pin is main burst option that slightly negates Corrin's lackluster mobility and movement as well as being a amazing punish and damage racking tool not to mention it's KO power at higher percents, but there are more flaws to the move than you think there is which I'll bring up in multiple points:

It is very unsafe on shield: -13 to be exact when pin hits your shield and this is before Corrin can even do an action out of it (front kick, back kick ect.) Which means anything under 13 frames OoS can punish the instapin before Corrin can even do this, but the catch is that you have to be ready for the pin in advance or even better: bait the pin and punish. Characters like ect. Have the speed to punish and even KILL corrin OoS if you bait pin out (Limit could LCS through it free and it's a easy stock) (Also note that Corrin's hand the black part of pin becomes a extra hurtbox for corrin)

Pin is a hard commitment: It is not a poke or something you can just throw out. On whiff or on shield (provided the opponent doesn't punish it Oos with the stuff I said earlier) Corrin is left in a extremely limited position with three options, two (jump front kick) which are easily punishable and one that gives up stage control and isn't even safe in some mus ( ect. are very notible examples of characters that will always punish a back kick) which means when Corrin is at high percents Pin becomes more risky of an option to use unless you're punishing your opponent which is the main use of pin, because you give your opponent free stage control and put yourself in a worse position than before ( can just upsmash you for free tbh)

Staling, priority and mispinning: Not sure if anyone knows this but if you hit the intital pin + the kick the move stales twice, so if you successfully use pin twice you've staled it four times (which is the main reason you see some characters not die to pin when you think they should). Pin also has item priority like DFS which means any hitboxes can beat the move so technically you could throw out a constant hitbox and beat pin (not sure if you should actually aim for that, baiting it to whiff or punish is better Imo). Lastly there is mispinning were if you pin too close to them you can't hit them with the kick hitboxes and they basically escape for free and Corrin basically gives up stage control for no good reason

That's pretty much it. Ask me questions or if there's something you want to point out and argue I'll listen and try my best to answer
Nah I actually did it after 3+ months lol
Also mobile sucks

You are a brave soul for typing all this out on your phone while on a bus, and I appreciate that you did this

 

[RonNewcomb]

1) Did Nojinko really lose to a Yoshi player? That's kind of the last matchup I'd expect Ike to get beat in.

2) I think the tendency for Smash 4 players to be "lazy," so to speak, is that stuff like tech skill has a less dramatic impact on winning and losing. Learning tech skill in Melee can give you like a 50% boost, while in Smash 4 it's more like 10% (these are made-up numbers). This is something i like about Smash 4, but I can see people going "90% is good enough" and resting on their laurels. Maybe until someone shows that some tech is the difference between winning a tournament and not, players will stay comfortable.

3) I feel like excessive camping has been proven in Smash 4 to only take you so far. Over the life of this game, players like @Dabuz have talked about how even defensive-style players need SOME aggression. Static Manny has even thrown in some aggression, either in his Sonic or especially in his Roy. A lot of the early camping in Smash 4 was also because people didn't understand the game as well. When approaching is still a magical mystery and you don't know what to expect, tournament players will tend to err on the side of caution.

Tech skill can give one an advantage in a ditto. Pivot f-tilt is important in most swordie dittoes, and I wouldn't sneeze at the slide-y techs bidou & stepdash in a Link ditto, even though I'd never use the former normally.

But yeah, if your fundamentals aren't solid, all the super SDI tech in the world won't save you, in Smash4.

 

[Lord Dio]

FE Saga Top 8 Winners side:

Komorikiri vs Manny
Nairo vs Salem


Losers Top 8 Qualifiers, in order

Tweek vs Kirihara
Ac vs Samsora (rip)

MKLeo vs VoiD
Shuton vs WaDi

 

[ismaaa]

FE Saga Top 8 Winners side:

Komorikiri vs Manny
Nairo vs Salem


Losers Top 8 Qualifiers, in order

Tweek vs Kirihara
Ac vs Samsora (rip)

MKLeo vs VoiD
Shuton vs WaDi

Lol samsora won

 

[The-Technique]

Lol samsora won

then he met Tweek. RIP

 

[ismaaa]

then he met Tweek. RIP

top 8 is still pretty good for peach imo

 

[MERPIS]

Yo can some one link here or give me that matchup chart image that notably has M2 as 7th best MU spread and also has him lose in a -0.5 to sheik idk why? I need it to study off of.

 

[Illusion.]

Salty Juan’s 4 (68 entrants: New Mexico)

1st. BANG!
2nd. SKUM | Fahrenheit
3rd. UpChuckle
4th. Diago
5th. King
5th. Pink Menace
7th. Monochroma
7th. _SEBA_

 

[The-Technique]

Welp I think its time for Nairo to retire the Diddy counterpick, because his ZSS was performing waaay better versus Salem this time around. I think he dropped a total of 3 games from using Diddy, didn't win a single one.

 

[TDK]

2GGC: Fire Emblem Saga (351 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Salem
2nd: Nairo
3rd: Komorikiri
4th: Tweek
5th: VoiD
5th: Static Manny
7th: Shuton
7th: Samsora
9th: Kirihara
9th: Ac
9th: MKLeo
9th: WaDi
13th: Tyrant
13th: Falln
13th: Mr. E
13th: Mistake
17th: KEN
17th: Ryuga
17th: NAKAT
17th: Captain Zack
17th: Eon
17th: Razo
17th: Mystearica
17th: Cosmos
25th: Vinnie
25th: Zenyou
25th: Ryo
25th: Locus
25th: Elegant
25th: Larry Lurr
25th: YOC
25th: Abadango

 

[Lord Dio]

First time in ages Komo's made top 3 at a big event, and it can also be considered Roy's best showing (even if he didn't appear much).
Let's ****ing gooooooo komo

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Welp I think its time for Nairo to retire the Diddy counterpick, because his ZSS was performing waaay better versus Salem this time around. I think he dropped a total of 3 games from using Diddy, didn't win a single one.

Well a possible lesson from the Salem vs Nairo sets and MKLeo vs Void set canshow. Sometimes you should just have faith in your main despite even in times when you not feeling confidient with them vs a certian MU or player..

all those almost reverse 3-0 sets after Nairo's and Leos counterpick characters failed them could of possibly ended diffrently if Nairo and MKLeo went with thier mains from the very beginning

 

[Lord Dio]

If I recall.....isn't this also the best showing Shulk has had thanks to shuton?
also pretty upset heavy tournament with really varied characters too.....the curse may live still but this was a good tournament.

 

[ARGHETH]

If I recall.....isn't this also the best showing Shulk has had thanks to shuton?
also pretty upset heavy tournament with really varied characters too.....the curse may live still but this was a good tournament.

Nah, Civil war was much better. Kome beat Ryo and Tweek, while Nicko beat Anti and Gluttony.

 

[Lord Dio]

Nah, Civil war was much better. Kome beat Ryo and Tweek, while Nicko beat Anti and Gluttony.

not really comparing, but CW was probably the last time we saw this many upsets on such a big level. CW, or EVO

 

[Minordeth]

Mfw the only game Komo takes off of Nairo in Loser’s Finals is with Roy.

Mfw this is Roy’s highest placing.

 

[TDK]

Here's some food for thought: Top Peaches are up on sets over top MKs in the later half of this year so far, with Mute Ace beating Ac and Leo at EVO and Samsora beating Aba and Ac as well.

 

[The-Technique]

So apparently in this tournament, Salem utilized what he calls an "unstable playstyle" specifically to deal with Nairo's Diddy counterpick. One thing I observed was that Salem played uncharacteristically aggressive, immediately dashing towards Nairo from the beginning of each match. Even though Nairo lost every match playing as Diddy, all the games in Winner's Finals were close, but it seemed to work out for Salem in the end.

There was a lot of adaptation in this tournament overall. Players that often lost to certain players in the past (Shuton 0-2 in sets vs Ryuga, Komo always losing the Cloud ditto to Leo, etc) found a way to break their losing streaks.

Also, what do Corrin mains think of the Shulk matchup?