Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[NotLiquid]

I was really impressed by Manny this tournament. He's gone from being one of the more boring Sonic players to one that adapts really well under pressure. His final set against Tweek was nail biting, and the fact that he was this close to getting a reverse 3-0 on him would've been insane.

Samsora's Peach was also really good. I think most of his sets yesterday were definitely a testament to how playing Peach and playing her well is really hard. Succeeding in enduring AC's Meta Knight was one incredible battle of attrition; some smart stuff using her float to stay out of range of MK's ladder set ups.

 

[ARISTOS]

Here's some food for thought: Top Peaches are up on sets over top MKs in the later half of this year so far, with Mute Ace beating Ac and Leo at EVO and Samsora beating Aba and Ac as well.

Metaknight players are tunnel-visioning in the MU (haven't seen the AC match, so this is based off Aba and Leo).

MK has a lot of tools in the MU to kill Peach quickly, but when watching these matches it seems once Peach has left ladder percents they look lost. MK's lack of strong SH options hurt him here as well.

In general character counterpicking requires a really strong secondary/pocket, you need to be really well versed and practiced in that character, because the person you are counterpicking against has definitely played that MU and its nuances way more than you.

 

[Scot B]

Matchups are rapidly shifting more toward even the more this game develops. I really don't see many characters having 60/40s at all in the future.

 

[Lord Dio]

Looking at komo's victory over leo, he seemed in general a lot more aggressive than he usually does, and I think it really caught leo off guard for a bit, hence getting all that percent on leo (losing 1st stock when komo's at 46, etc).
Thinking of going and looking at his performance against nairo and salem cloud-wise, bc I have to wonder if being more offensive is helping komo overall, or just against leo........

 

[Rizen]

Speaking of even MUs, lately I've been thinking DK and Bowser go even with Link. Mobility matters and neither of them are bad. It's the kind of MU that doesn't seem even but can tip either way with momentum. DK's the harder of the 2 so maybe Link beats Bowser +.5, idk.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Matchups are rapidly shifting more toward even the more this game develops. I really don't see many characters having 60/40s at all in the future.

Its not that MU ratios don't exist it's just that people put too much stock in them. At top level it's less about my character beats your character and more about the player vs player interaction.Meta Knight most definitely beats Peach, Luigi most definitely loses to Cloud. 60/40? 55/45? That can be debated. Samsora and Elegant I'm sure know they lose these MUs that why they have probably practiced them enough to where they are as proficient enough in them to where they can still win them often.

Unless your playing Brawl Meta Knight against Brawl Ganondorf you can never just expect to win because your MU chart says so.

 

[Lord Dio]

Its not that MU ratios don't exist it's just that people put too much stock in them. At top level it's less about my character beats your character and more about the player vs player interaction.Meta Knight most definitely beats Peach, Luigi most definitely loses to Cloud. 60/40? 55/45? That can be debated. Samsora and Elegant I'm sure know they lose these MUs that why they have probably practiced them enough to where they are as proficient enough in them to where they can still win them often.

Unless your playing Brawl Meta Knight against Brawl Ganondorf you can never just expect to win because your MU chart says so.

Thi sis why upsets happen. Spend time on some mus and lil to none on the one that you're fighting right now, who has a lot of exp against your character......and you just got upset.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Its not that MU ratios don't exist it's just that people put too much stock in them. At top level it's less about my character beats your character and more about the player vs player interaction.Meta Knight most definitely beats Peach, Luigi most definitely loses to Cloud. 60/40? 55/45? That can be debated. Samsora and Elegant I'm sure know they lose these MUs that why they have probably practiced them enough to where they are as proficient enough in them to where they can still win them often.

Unless your playing Brawl Meta Knight against Brawl Ganondorf you can never just expect to win because your MU chart says so.

Agreed. but that does not say that there are still No MU's that are considered Very bad and can be very hard to win


vs

vs

vs

vs

vs

are those examples of MU's where the first character really struggles agaiant the other due to the fact the other can tools and options to ruthlessly prey upon the weakness and shortcoming of the other

That is not to say these MU's are TOTALLY impossible among players in the same decent to good skill levels. But it will take a lot of work and even a little luck possibly to win


Ironically the place where tiers and MU spreads matter the least is between casual and/or beginner players.

 

[InfinitySoul]

Matchups are rapidly shifting more toward even the more this game develops. I really don't see many characters having 60/40s at all in the future.

How so ?
If the players on the loosing side of the match up will search for solution to patch it, those on the winning side will not simply stand there doing nothing. They will find other openings in the opponent's character.

 

[The-Technique]

Sad news for anyone optimistic towards Roy, Capn Levi now thinks he sucks. Competing in the US made him come to this realization apparently.

 

[ARGHETH]

Sad news for anyone optimistic towards Roy, Capn Levi now thinks he sucks. Competing in the US made him come to this realization apparently.

Note: by "sucks", he means he's mid tier instead of high, like he previously thought.

Also: "Combo food, range and priority on his moves, no safe approach, lacks a good recovery.
But has good neutral, speed, and hard punishes."

 

[Rizen]

IMO Roy's low tier and the worst FE character.
Robin might find a nitch as a CP character. He has big strong points like checkmate, powerful levin attacks and good projectile combos that can shut down big characters like DK iirc. On the other hand, worst run speed in the game, frame 7js, attacks that run out, decent but exploitable recovery and gets outclassed by other swordsmen like Marth and of course Cloud. But if you know the opponent has someone like Bowser or can make a few reads, Robin could be a good character to whip out. Mid tier.

 

[|RK|]

More ZSS discussion, lol. Pink Fresh asked on Twitter how ZSS is "high risk, high reward."

She has barely any risk outside of grab. imo with enough zss mu experience grabs become telegraphed. whiff grab=punish=rage=jank.

— 🍥 LG Marss (@Marss_NE) October 16, 2017

Also, they agreed that Marss isn't actually aggro. But most people don't recognize that.

 

[ARISTOS]

More ZSS discussion, lol. Pink Fresh asked on Twitter how ZSS is "high risk, high reward."

She has barely any risk outside of grab. imo with enough zss mu experience grabs become telegraphed. whiff grab=punish=rage=jank.

— 🍥 LG Marss (@Marss_NE) October 16, 2017

Also, they agreed that Marss isn't actually aggro. But most people don't recognize that.

ZSS is high risk only really compared to the other top tiers in the game. Outside of grab, ZSS doesn't really have to commit too hard to much (but this also defines most other top tiers!) but nair/falling uair can also convert into early kills. These aren't quite as safe as other top tier options, but the reward can easily outstrip those other options.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Curious on what everyone here thinks on the sword characters in the game. Whats your ranking of swordies from best to worst? Just want to know what everyone thinks

 

[Tizio Random]

Curious on what everyone here thinks on the sword characters in the game. Whats your ranking of swordies from best to worst? Just want to know what everyone thinks

>>/>>>/

I don't think anyone of them is lower than low mod tier at max. Also, I think Shulk is overlooked and probably just one/two spots above Roy.

Spoiler

Is Meta Knight a sword character?

 

[|RK|]

Curious on what everyone here thinks on the sword characters in the game. Whats your ranking of swordies from best to worst? Just want to know what everyone thinks

Cloud is an easy first. Then maybe...

Corrin (can combo in the air, kill deceptively early, and then threaten your landing with pin??)
Marth (He and Lucina are - imo - the tier right before swords get really busted. Their game plan is strong and just works. Good neutral and really solid advantage)

Lucina (See: Marth)

Ike (Actually, could potentially switch with Shulk. But in either case, solid threat, safe on shield + grab-based kill confirms and threatening edgeguarding)

Shulk (Is actually a pretty solid sword character. Shield safety can be busted with MALLC, but that's semi-situational - Shulk doesn't want to switch arts EVERY time he lands. So I can't factor it in too much. But great range and the ability to alter his attributes is always a plus.)

Robin (does he count?? If so, Levin aerials are busted. Idk if he should switch with Roy, though...)

Roy (His sword always tends to feel way shorter than it is. He has the mobility to make up for it, but he just doesn't seem to do anything too crazy. He's not bad, but among the sword characters...)

And no clue where to put the Links.

 

[Krysco]

is easily the best swordie, after that is...either or , more inclined to put Corrin above Marcina myself, then the other then then then it gets to the point where I'm not too familiar with all the swordies. I feel that and possibly are all mid tiers and I personally feel that Roy is at least better than Ike and Robin and maybe the Pits, I don't know enough about Shulk to know where exactly to place him and of all the mid tier swordies, I feel Link is the only one clearly better than Roy. Lastly there's who could've possibly been better than some of the others if it could be small and have access to all specials but even that's a maybe.

 

[MH-Jin]

Curious on what everyone here thinks on the sword characters in the game. Whats your ranking of swordies from best to worst? Just want to know what everyone thinks

1. Cloud
-huge range on aerials
- up air and down air have long lasting hit boxes
-good mobilty/neutral (in and out of limit)

Con: gimpable recovery

2. Marth
-long disjoint
-fast jabs/tilts/walk (strong ground game)
-invulnerability on grounded up b
-strong at edgeguarding
-best reward for spacing out of all swordsmen/women

Con: trouble with landing

3. Lucina
-same as Marth however less reward

4. Corrin
- pin is great burst option
- good at juggling and good kill power
- has a projectile and kill throw

Con: lack of shield safety unless smash attacks are tipped

Next ones I'm not fully sure about.

Ike is good in terms is grab followups.. However is weak when it comes to mobilty/disadvantage.

Roy has good movement, however lacks shield safety. He is easy to combo and has a somewhat short/exploitable recovery. He has strong kill power though.

I don't know if we could count Robin or metaknight or even pit/dark pit as swordsmen.

 

[Illusion.]

>> // > > >> > > > > >

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

If the majority of your moves are disjointed with the focal point of your character being that you use a wieldied tool that is used for such moves your a "sword " character so yes Pit, Robin and Meta Knight are most definitely sword characters. All but one of Pits normals don't use his staff, Robin is a hybrid but again all her normals uses a sword and meta knight again uses all his normals but one with his sword. These characters might not fit the traditional swordsman archetype that Marth is but very few characters fit a single archtype 100% of the way in smash. Link and Robin are Swordfighters who have added heavy projectile games, Meta Knight is a Swordfighter who doesn't happen to use his sword for ranged fighting as much as a traditional Swordfighter, heck D3 is technically a Swordfighter just a mess of one.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'll talk in depth about the characters I know most about.

is undoubtedly the best swordsman in the game, arguably the best character, so that speaks enough about him.

The next 4 would all be within a space or two of the one above/below - some days I might even rank them as right next to eachother in this order.

would still be next for me; maybe it's because the arguable best player in the UK right now is a Marth main, because I use him myself, because I know personally far more Marcina players than Corrin players, I dunno. Aside from a few characters, such as Rosalina, I don't see any outright MU where Corrin is the far superior choice over Marth. Their MU spreads are still pretty similar, and both are pretty much solo-viable (not to the same extent as Cloud), so they're still extremely close.

would be next due to her being "easier" Marth. I still feel (just from playing them myself; infact I got 3rd at a tournament, in both singles and doubles over the weekend with solo Marcina) that Marth is the better character, but it's not tiers better, heck, or even places better. I also hold the opinion that personal playstyle holds a lot into whom the player personally uses better, and again, have a personal experience of that one too. Perhaps "better" is not the correct word. Perhaps "optimal" is more fitting. Marth can do more, but Lucina is still as good as him, and her "consistency" is her selling point. As a side note, Marth has tippers on all moves, Lucina has Bair - that move is actually f*cking dumb. The only area I would consider ranking Lucina above Marth is in doubles (while I went mainly Marth over the weekend in singles, Lucina was my character in doubles bar 1 set). Overall she's much easier to use in the doubles environment.

; our best local player is a MK main so biassssss. Real talk, I just feel his tools are very slept on. He's a character that with the right opening, can end your stock off of one single opening. Dash Attack, Bair spike, reset, Uair stairway. If it doesn't kill or he misses, that's still over half of your stock gone. With moves like Dash Attack and Fsmash to use in neutral that are both extremely safe and nigh on unpunishable, he's got some of the best ways to bait and punish to end your stocks in the game. Make the incorrect decision vs him and you're in for a rough time.

would be the next one. Not going to expand as much on Corrin, but again, he's extremely close to the above three anyways it's almost a negligible gap. Effective in different ways.

Now for the rest who I won't comment on as much

So, in effect;

,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Some days I feel Roy is better than Robin, others the other way around, but it's usually them next to eachother or there abouts in my lists anyways. Link is better than Ike IMO, and Ike will ALWAYS be better than Roy; give me a solid throw to kill confirm or a ridiculously easy 2 frame move over general fishing for kills any day. Pit(s) aren't bad, they're just meh and fail to stand out. Mii Sword is still underused and tbh, what's even the point.

Edit: Oh, I forgot about Shulk looool

 

[Yonder]

I don't know if we could count Robin or metaknight or even pit/dark pit as swordsmen.

If they use a sword for the majority of their moves (tilts or smashes for the characters in question) I would say yes.

My list:

>>> // > > > >> > />> > >>>


Cloud is head and shoulders the best sword, none of the other swords are even close in results, and he's the only character in the game that can be considered for a ban in doubles. Clear domination.

Marth/Lucina/Corrin are pretty neck in neck. Corrin is doing really well though, maybe him and Marth will switch spots on the tier list one day. I have doubts about Corrin but he's been proving himself.

MK still does MK thing and surprises us when we forget about him, including MKleo mangling Zero with him which was a testament to say that MK is still truly deadly against certain characters, like Diddy.

Toon Link no longer has real rep without Hyuga, but I can't see anyone else lower than him better. But he's certainly not going any higher.

Ike was struggling for a long time, then the Ike mains had go showings again. Still mid tier, but by no means a bad one.

Link is still scary with how surprisingly hard he hits and keepaway but doesn't flow as well as TL. T makes him look godly. Another really good mid tier.

I'm tired of the Pits being placed so high when they don't do anything asides Earth, and even then, not placing the best. Very middle ground but a great neutral. But middle ground doesn't count it in a gsme full of jank. Middle of mid tier. Too solid for low.

I don't know anything about Shulk sides from "bad frames lol" but I think Shuton used him to success last event so that's nice. He is underexplored but that's due to technical gap. Why strain yourself in top level play to get a character not as good as Cloud, even at elder Kai unlocked potential level? Lower mid tier.

Roy is a lot better than what the tier list says, but the others listed are better. Don't know much either here. Lower mid.

Robin...ugh my favorite sword and not too good. I can say a lot about you but I'm lazy so yeah. It's not running out of tombs that is the big issue or damage output, killing, etc. Run speed. Run speed neuters Robin so badly. It makes it harder to camp when you lose tombs(10 second average or whatever it is for tomb recovery isn't easy when you're slower than Jiggs on the ground.) Then you have the issue of losing Elwind, considering it's an amazing damage racker and move out of D throw that can also kill early with rage. It's so useful that you may overuse it. Once you do, you are not going to last 40 seconds for another one without being thrown off stage. Your recovery becomes worse than Little Mac tier. So you can't even use it's actually really good spiking ability without fear of losing it offstage

You lose elwind, you lose the stock.

Then you have the run speed, which makes you lose so many follow-ups out of arc thunder or Elfire. Elfire isn't so bad as it is a mostly close-up move. You can get your follow-up or cover ledges with it relatively fine. But arcthunder? Unless you're in point blank range or at least a character body away, you are not getting another follow-up opportunity. He's just to slow to link the leven sword into it for kills and damage.

Tournament results aren't helping either considering 8 Robin mains didn't even make top 48 at FE saga, including Dath. We need that cosplaying Robin who beat Nairo once to rep the Robin meta lol jk.

Leven sword is really incredible though and only a 6 second wait for a new one is nothing. Imagine level sword on...anyone faster. Also d throw kill confirm is still good. Not great like other ones but very solid.

I love you Robin but bottom of the mid tier. Maybe top of the low if you continue to fail so badly.

Oh and lol 1111 Mii Swordsman. Unfathomably bad.

 

[ARGHETH]

I just find it funny how Corrin's gone from "best FE character!!" to mid tier and back to the possibility of being better than Marth.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

speaking of .....

*ramble* I grew into the smash scene from brawl, so his brawl iteration is still in-grained into my memory. But, it's just something else to see him here, not top tier, and doing work. Like, he was massively OP in brawl, but he came here, was trash for a hot second, got buffed like crazy, became top tier (with me making a what-if of him being the best character. again), then got nerfed, and is sitting pretty in high-tier. I'm so used to seeing his face and thinking,"If the opponent isn't using him too, I know who got the advantage," but now I have to adjust and see him like the rest of the cast. *ramble*

also, who's been carrying the MK torch as of lately?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Curious on what everyone here thinks on the sword characters in the game. Whats your ranking of swordies from best to worst? Just want to know what everyone thinks

> >/> > >>>>>/>>

Cloud is clearly #1, Corrin, Marth, Lucina, and Meta Knight are all fairly close, then a several character jump to Toon Link, and then several character jump to Link, who is close to Shulk, and Robin. Roy, Pit, and Ike are also fairly close (and not too far away from Link/Shulk/Robin). Mii Swordfighter is pretty bad, especially without customs.

 

[Y2Kay]

Why are we arbitrarily comparing sword characters when they frankly have vastly different play styles?

 

[MH-Jin]

If the majority of your moves are disjointed with the focal point of your character being that you use a wieldied tool that is used for such moves your a "sword " character so yes Pit, Robin and Meta Knight are most definitely sword characters. All but one of Pits normals don't use his staff, Robin is a hybrid but again all her normals uses a sword and meta knight again uses all his normals but one with his sword. These characters might not fit the traditional swordsman archetype that Marth is but very few characters fit a single archtype 100% of the way in smash. Link and Robin are Swordfighters who have added heavy projectile games, Meta Knight is a Swordfighter who doesn't happen to use his sword for ranged fighting as much as a traditional Swordfighter, heck D3 is technically a Swordfighter just a mess of one.

That's fair. I think it's because fire emblem characters follow that archetype the closest which is why when I think swords...I think Marth.

Including those characters (wouldn't include DDD haha)

Metaknight would be around same level as Corrin. He has that lethal ish punish game and really strong recovery... Though a bit linear neutral wise.

Robin.. I'd agree with others bottom of mid tier. Levin sword is amazing.. But it's on the turtle that is Robin and she can get zone broken. Still reliable as she has checkmate along with a decent jab for CQC.

I forgot about link, Toon Link and Shulk in my previous post haha.

Link is on the rise... Strong survivability and rage really benefits him. Plus he has can zone with combination of sword and projectiles. However his disadvantage state is poor, somewhat exploitable recovery and can get comboed.

Toon Link has better mobilty/speed. He definitely can play keep away/zoning game better than other swordsman. However he doesn't have much to counter shield if I remember correctly?

Pit is... Underwhelming for me. He's decent at everything.. However lacks that x factor that gives him reward for winning neutral.

Shulk is a big question mark for me. He's super complicated, has a lot of tech and has large range... But his frame data is so bad and he gets overwhelmed in disadvantage. Probably somewhere around mid tier and will rise as more tech gets discovered.

Order would be

 

[TDK]

> > > > > (Big gap) > > >

This is pretty arbitrary but here's my list. I think MK is fairly overrated right now, with his lack of neutral and severe weakness to edge camping for a somewhat inconsistent reward being big factors in that. Robin and Ike are fairly bad to me but Throw kill confirms are amazing so they'll never not be relevant. Pit sucks.

Also, I wish we had a Marcina emote similar to .

 

[Bigbomb2]

Oooo this seems fun for discussion

>>/>>>>>/>,,>>

Cloud has a distinct one-up over the others (obvs). For the most part, most peoples' swordie lists are pretty similar so far. I find Mii swordsman to be the only "bad" character in here and I couldn't decide who was "better" between Ike, Roy, and Robin.

 

[ARGHETH]

>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Lord Dio]

uhhh does greninja count as a swordie or no?

 

[The-Technique]

uhhh does greninja count as a swordie or no?

greninja's sword attacks are only his smashes and f-air, so prolly not

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Considering bowser's limbs are invincible during most of his attacks, does bowser count as a swordie?

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja is a hybrid. A lot of sword attacks are bad; the only ones you'll find him using is up smash and forward air. But the reason his disjoints, particularly forward air, have harsh restrictions and limitations is because he has access to great mobility and a strong projectile.

 

[Minordeth]

>>>>>>>>>>>

Bold AF, right here.

 

[Guido65]

Mii Swordfighter is pretty bad, especially without customs.

Not really. Mii swords customs do improve him in ways but the only one that is really game changing for him is chakram. That's the only one that's actually super vital as the move adds a very versatile projectile to his gameplan in which can be used for spacing(smash thrown chakram) and combos(tilt chakram). Otherwise he doesn't change a whole awful lot without them,the only mii that signifigantly improves with them is brawler to be honest. Misinformation like this is why I honestly tend to avoid discussion of the character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Please ignore

 

[Emblem Lord]

>>>>>>>>>>>

Bruh

tf

 

[ARGHETH]

Bruh

tf

This is literally alphabetical order