Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[The-Technique]

this is arbitrary and pointless but ill just state my biased opinion anyway

> =>>=>==>>>>>

 

[Frihetsanka]

Not really. Mii swords customs do improve him in ways but the only one that is really game changing for him is chakram. That's the only one that's actually super vital as the move adds a very versatile projectile to his gameplan in which can be used for spacing(smash thrown chakram) and combos(tilt chakram). Otherwise he doesn't change a whole awful lot without them,the only mii that signifigantly improves with them is brawler to be honest. Misinformation like this is why I honestly tend to avoid discussion of the character.

So, what you're saying is Mii Swordfighter is pretty bad, and it's even worse without customs? How does that contradict my "Mii Swordfighter is pretty bad, especially without customs."? Mii Swordfighter would be pretty bad with customs too, but it's even worse when forced to use the 1111 moveset.

Where's the misinformation? Chakram being "super vital" (your words, not mine) strengthens my statement, doesn't it?

Just to be clear: Normal size Mii Swordfighter is likely low tier regardless of whether they have access to customs or not, and they'd still most likely be worse than Ike. Perhaps any-size XXXX Mii Swordfighter would be better than Ike, it's hard to say since barely any scene allows any-size XXXX Miis.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Guido65]

So, what you're saying is Mii Swordfighter is pretty bad, and it's even worse without customs? How does that contradict my "Mii Swordfighter is pretty bad, especially without customs."? Mii Swordfighter would be pretty bad with customs too, but it's even worse when forced to use the 1111 moveset.

Where's the misinformation? Chakram being "super vital" (your words, not mine) strengthens my statement, doesn't it?

Just to be clear: Normal size Mii Swordfighter is likely low tier regardless of whether they have access to customs or not, and they'd still most likely be worse than Ike. Perhaps any-size XXXX Mii Swordfighter would be better than Ike, it's hard to say since barely any scene allows any-size XXXX Miis.

The way you worded it made it sound like you were saying he was massively reliant on his other moves which isn't really the case. He's probably one of the better low tiers but I don't think saying he's much worse in 1111 is really true. He doesn't change very much in xxxx mostly stays the same.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

>>>//>>>>>/>>>>>>

M2's disjoints and playstyle are almost as generic as Marth's honestly

 

[my_T]

Guys lets be honest...the Pits aren't sword characters with those hit boxes. Those are Party City toys they're swinging around.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

If they use a sword for the majority of their moves (tilts or smashes for the characters in question) I would say yes.

My list:

>>> // > > > >> > />> > >>>


Cloud is head and shoulders the best sword, none of the other swords are even close in results, and he's the only character in the game that can be considered for a ban in doubles. Clear domination.

Marth/Lucina/Corrin are pretty neck in neck. Corrin is doing really well though, maybe him and Marth will switch spots on the tier list one day. I have doubts about Corrin but he's been proving himself.

MK still does MK thing and surprises us when we forget about him, including MKleo mangling Zero with him which was a testament to say that MK is still truly deadly against certain characters, like Diddy.

Toon Link no longer has real rep without Hyuga, but I can't see anyone else lower than him better. But he's certainly not going any higher.

Ike was struggling for a long time, then the Ike mains had go showings again. Still mid tier, but by no means a bad one.

Link is still scary with how surprisingly hard he hits and keepaway but doesn't flow as well as TL. T makes him look godly. Another really good mid tier.

I'm tired of the Pits being placed so high when they don't do anything asides Earth, and even then, not placing the best. Very middle ground but a great neutral. But middle ground doesn't count it in a gsme full of jank. Middle of mid tier. Too solid for low.

I don't know anything about Shulk sides from "bad frames lol" but I think Shuton used him to success last event so that's nice. He is underexplored but that's due to technical gap. Why strain yourself in top level play to get a character not as good as Cloud, even at elder Kai unlocked potential level? Lower mid tier.

Roy is a lot better than what the tier list says, but the others listed are better. Don't know much either here. Lower mid.

Robin...ugh my favorite sword and not too good. I can say a lot about you but I'm lazy so yeah. It's not running out of tombs that is the big issue or damage output, killing, etc. Run speed. Run speed neuters Robin so badly. It makes it harder to camp when you lose tombs(10 second average or whatever it is for tomb recovery isn't easy when you're slower than Jiggs on the ground.) Then you have the issue of losing Elwind, considering it's an amazing damage racker and move out of D throw that can also kill early with rage. It's so useful that you may overuse it. Once you do, you are not going to last 40 seconds for another one without being thrown off stage. Your recovery becomes worse than Little Mac tier. So you can't even use it's actually really good spiking ability without fear of losing it offstage

You lose elwind, you lose the stock.

Then you have the run speed, which makes you lose so many follow-ups out of arc thunder or Elfire. Elfire isn't so bad as it is a mostly close-up move. You can get your follow-up or cover ledges with it relatively fine. But arcthunder? Unless you're in point blank range or at least a character body away, you are not getting another follow-up opportunity. He's just to slow to link the leven sword into it for kills and damage.

Tournament results aren't helping either considering 8 Robin mains didn't even make top 48 at FE saga, including Dath. We need that cosplaying Robin who beat Nairo once to rep the Robin meta lol jk.

Leven sword is really incredible though and only a 6 second wait for a new one is nothing. Imagine level sword on...anyone faster. Also d throw kill confirm is still good. Not great like other ones but very solid.

I love you Robin but bottom of the mid tier. Maybe top of the low if you continue to fail so badly.

Oh and lol 1111 Mii Swordsman. Unfathomably bad.

Just asked Robin Discord and was told that Elwind takes 7 seconds to recharge instead of 40 seconds. I also checked two smash wiki pages where one site said it takes 5 seconds to recover, while the other said 6 seconds, so you be the judge on that (pick your favorite).

That's fair. I think it's because fire emblem characters follow that archetype the closest which is why when I think swords...I think Marth.

Including those characters (wouldn't include DDD haha)

Metaknight would be around same level as Corrin. He has that lethal ish punish game and really strong recovery... Though a bit linear neutral wise.

Robin.. I'd agree with others bottom of mid tier. Levin sword is amazing.. But it's on the turtle that is Robin and she can get zone broken. Still reliable as she has checkmate along with a decent jab for CQC.

I forgot about link, Toon Link and Shulk in my previous post haha.

Link is on the rise... Strong survivability and rage really benefits him. Plus he has can zone with combination of sword and projectiles. However his disadvantage state is poor, somewhat exploitable recovery and can get comboed.

Toon Link has better mobilty/speed. He definitely can play keep away/zoning game better than other swordsman. However he doesn't have much to counter shield if I remember correctly?

Pit is... Underwhelming for me. He's decent at everything.. However lacks that x factor that gives him reward for winning neutral.

Shulk is a big question mark for me. He's super complicated, has a lot of tech and has large range... But his frame data is so bad and he gets overwhelmed in disadvantage. Probably somewhere around mid tier and will rise as more tech gets discovered.

Order would be

Shulk has at least 9 different advanced techniques listed on this website (www.shulk101.com) ran by the Shulk Discord with others being exclusive to the Discord server in bot commands. So I do not think the number of advanced techniques is what is holding him back.

I think it might be a lack of seeing him win on stream at big events and the constant reminders of Shulk's attacks having slow start up or misinformation about Air Slash recovery being a 1 to 1 comparison with Cloud or his Monado Arts like at the recent MSM is what keeps many players opinions of him low.

I think that because I think that the only reason Shulk discussion came back up is because of Shuton's 3-0 vs Ryuga which shocked many people.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Eh, why not.

>=>=>>>=>>>>>>

I find Corrin to be over-hyped.
Just wait for top players to start respecting Pin.

 

[The-Technique]

Just asked Robin Discord and was told that Elwind takes 7 seconds to recharge instead of 40 seconds. I also checked two smash wiki pages where one site said it takes 5 seconds to recover, while the other said 6 seconds, so you be the judge on that (pick your favorite).



Shulk has at least 9 different advanced techniques listed on this website (www.shulk101.com) ran by the Shulk Discord with others being exclusive to the Discord server in bot commands. So I do not think the number of advanced techniques is what is holding him back.

I think it might be a lack of seeing him win on stream at big events and the constant reminders of Shulk's attacks having slow start up or misinformation about Air Slash recovery being a 1 to 1 comparison with Cloud or his Monado Arts like at the recent MSM is what keeps many players opinions of him low.

I think that because I think that the only reason Shulk discussion came back up is because of Shuton's 3-0 vs Ryuga which shocked many people.

Another problem with Shulk is that he doesn't have many top players representing him. There's a reason why Nicko and Kome have the best results despite using the least amount of Shulk tech out of everyone, and then a top player will randomly pull him out as a secondary and win like Shuton, the amount of players who rep Shulk that are both skilled and dedicated to the character are very few.

 

[ARGHETH]

I find Corrin to be over-hyped.
Just wait for top players to start respecting Pin.

Looking at TBH7, Pin was used more during combos and to punish mistakes than anything; more Pins missed or were shielded than hit. It was more Corrin's combo game and aerials in general (and a lot of grabs) that got Cosmos that far.

 

[TDK]

Eh, why not.

>=>=>>>=>>>>>

I find Corrin to be over-hyped.
Just wait for top players to start respecting Pin.

Link? You had Toon Link, who might as well have a plastic sword from the dollar store, but no Link?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I guess can give it a shot, too.


~~,,
,,~~
,,

(gap)
(1111)

That's more or less how I see it

 

[RonNewcomb]

Link? You had Toon Link, who might as well have a plastic sword from the dollar store, but no Link?

I think we're all just re-posting the tier list with the swordie filter on.

How would they be ordered if they were the only characters in the game?

 

[MercuryPenny]

i think "swordie" is more of a playstyle than "any character with a sword". putting the links, robin, roy, and pit in the same category as marcina, cloud, corrin, and ike seems off.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

If it was just sword ones, I suspect toon link would be much higher due to his camping ability, with it being difficult to counter

 

[TDK]

If it was just sword ones, I suspect toon link would be much higher due to his camping ability, with it being difficult to counter

Most of TL's matchups are other sword characters, actually. Specifically Cloud, and also Corrin as well, I think.

I'd argue TL would be worse because his range is so bad compared to the others.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Yall gotta be bored just posting swordie tier lists

I was gonna do a game-by-game in-depth analysis, but Ima keep it brief cuz I'm tired.

Game 1: fox's disadvantage state is shown like crazy here. Has a lifespan of a mosquito.

Game 2: fox's advantage state shows here. High Kill potential and combo ability. Speed allows him to get in or get punishes.

Game 3: gets walled like crazy. Too aggressive.

Diddy has some of the best normals in the game. So, midrange is where he dominates. That leaves fox with the following solutions in neutral:

Solution: laser laser laser laser laser laser laser laser laser laser. Be lame.

Alternative solution: wait for a opening to get in, and stay on him like a pitbull. You have to be really close to do damage (really hard solution to pull off).

Larry is a crazy good player; I just wish he'd bring his DEHF brawl Falco into his fox gameplay. He'd do wasaaaaay better imo.

EDIT: started watching other Larry vids to not be talkin out my rear. He's very explosive once he gets a hit, but that neutral vs ZeRo tho.........

Also saw charlietheking play. Same aggression. Watched ZD. Same aggression.

Have y'all seen anyone who has a more balanced style of play?

 

[FeelMeUp]

NAKAT has what feels like the most effective Fox style in top tier matchups.
New Fox players would find more success if they emulated his style and mixed in some Sodrek/Dugan/CDK/VoiD.
The Larry style of Fox will not work for the average player.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I'd ask what DEHF meant but I'm just going to ask something. Do a lot of players go the aggressive route with their characters? And if so why? I myself find a wait and see approach or a game of keep-away works better than running up guns blazing....

 

[Bowserboy3]

Why are we arbitrarily comparing sword characters when they frankly have vastly different play styles?

I dunno, discussion?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

NAKAT has what feels like the most effective Fox style in top tier matchups.
New Fox players would find more success if they emulated his style and mixed in some Sodrek/Dugan/CDK/VoiD.
The Larry style of Fox will not work for the average player.

Haven't seen any recent footage of nakat's fox. Care to plug?

I'd ask what DEHF meant but I'm just going to ask something. Do a lot of players go the aggressive route with their characters? And if so why? I myself find a wait and see approach or a game of keep-away works better than running up guns blazing....

DEHF was larry's old name (Does Everyone Hate Falco). Its reference is in melee. But he used it in brawl.

it seems like it. Haven't watched enough footage to confirm (I remember from older 2016 and early 17 footage that people would go balls-to-wall, so I might be able to pull off an assumption). However, I think some (a lot) of it stems from viewership. Gotta attract more fans to earn more dollas on twitch and merch. I have more theories, but a lot of them are intuitive-based and might not be factually sound.
Besides money, aggression is pretty strong here, thanks to momentum and keeping that advantage state is sooo important (plus, the disadvantage of a lot of characters are suuuuper weak and their advantage by contrast are suuuuuper strong. DK and bowser are basically how everyone is sorta designed like). Movement in this game is also very strong (very fast characters, punish ranged are very big with dash grabs and DAs. Reward for getting them are crazy high).

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Another problem with Shulk is that he doesn't have many top players representing him. There's a reason why Nicko and Kome have the best results despite using the least amount of Shulk tech out of everyone, and then a top player will randomly pull him out as a secondary and win like Shuton, the amount of players who rep Shulk that are both skilled and dedicated to the character are very few.

You were right about Nicko using shulk tech to a minimum a few months ago, but that changed this summmer. Hes pretty much mastered MALLC and its a regular part of his gameplan now. Kome uses it effectively as well, and you can catch nicko at most socal weeklies like True combo thursdays where he shows up every week. However, Tremendo dude in florida is the most well known technical shulk, but sadly he doesnt travel much like with other shulk players

 

[NairWizard]

Why are we arbitrarily comparing sword characters when they frankly have vastly different play styles?

Because they don't. None of the sword characters are "vastly" different from the others. They do have some nuances, yeah.

But generally, sword characters share these properties:
- greater range and disjoint, which lets them win trades
- to balance the above, greater endlag, which makes them susceptible to whiff punishing
- great advantage states
- poor disadvantage states


Sharing these properties means that they end up playing pretty similarly: it's in sword characters' best interest to space at the tip of their range and delay button presses as long as possible. They're doubly incentivized to avoid committal options--both because they get punished harder for committing than other characters and also because they get rewarded better for not committing than other characters.


People who enjoy traditional 2D fighters also tend to like sword characters because these characters have the range to control all of that gorgeous smash-specific stage space and make playing traditional "footsies" feel so engaging because they get punished hard when they whiff and punish even harder when they hit.

~sometimes you just wanna space a perfectly tipped Marth d-tilt on someone's shield and it feels soooooo good!~

 

[PK Bash]

Haven't seen any recent footage of nakat's fox. Care to plug?



DEHF was larry's old name (Does Everyone Hate Falco). Its reference is in melee. But he used it in brawl.

it seems like it. Haven't watched enough footage to confirm (I remember from older 2016 and early 17 footage that people would go balls-to-wall, so I might be able to pull off an assumption). However, I think some (a lot) of it stems from viewership. Gotta attract more fans to earn more dollas on twitch and merch. I have more theories, but a lot of them are intuitive-based and might not be factually sound.
Besides money, aggression is pretty strong here, thanks to momentum and keeping that advantage state is sooo important (plus, the disadvantage of a lot of characters are suuuuper weak and their advantage by contrast are suuuuuper strong. DK and bowser are basically how everyone is sorta designed like). Movement in this game is also very strong (very fast characters, punish ranged are very big with dash grabs and DAs. Reward for getting them are crazy high).

I'm not FeelMeUp but I love this set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQl_pENuzfk really good showing of how NAKAT's Fox ticks, what options he uses and when, his amazing awareness and recognition, stuff like that.
While I do think that Foxes should, by and large, be playing more like NAKAT instead of Larry, I think the word "emulate" is kind of the wrong word to use. I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted but if you just try to copy a player you are not getting good any time soon. It's all about understanding what is actually going on.
I do agree with the general sentiment of that post though. Excessively aggressive neutral is not something most players are good enough to pull off. I think I've mentioned it before but there is no way in hell I could pull off a FOW-type Ness with any notable success and frankly, not many Ness are capable either. Nairo's playstyle is simply not going to cut it for the majority of ZSS players because so much of it is built on spotting and capitalising on split-seconds which many can't recognise in time in the heat of the moment. Ixis' Sonic is another example. So much goes into FOW/Nairo/Ixis/whoever way of playing that the majority of players simply are not going to be able to emulate even if they tried because in this game, aggressive neutral definitely works but does not forgive. Defensive play is strong and usually more forgiving.

I say "usually" because you can't brickwall or camp forever in this game either, unless again you are really good. The longer you stand around passively, the longer the opponent has to pick you apart. Giving your opponent opportunities on a platter to gain the aggressive initiative in this game isn't so good. Partly, defensive play works better than it arguably should because people get frustrated with "campy" gameplay and don't learn as they play, they just tunnel-vision instead.
As a general rule, defensive play > aggressive play in neutral. But it is also extremely important to take the aggressive initiative when the opportunity presents itself - at least imo. Bare minimum you can't give that opportunity to the opponent too easily.

Is it just me or is this swordie discussion a wee bit misguided? Meta Knight and Toon Link function nothing like Marth or Cloud at all and we're comparing them just because they hold a sword? Like, what? I can see how we can compare Cloud/Marth/Ike/Shulk etc etc but there are some blatant outliers cropping up here.

 

[Routa]

I see Roy often to be compared to that of the Faptain, but what about Pit(s) and MK? They do share the same core. Their neutral is heavily based on movement and especially baiting with movement to get in and punish hard. There are minor differences between these characters. For example MK trades a bit of neutral for stronger punish game, Faptain exchanges his disadvantage state for better spacing options and higher damage output while Pit(s) exchange their damage output and kill power for better neutral.

I have heard people comparing TL to Pikachu and I can see why. Both heavily abuse their mobility and try to harass their opponent with moves that require patient from the opponent's part (projectiles for TL and QA for Pika). I do also see Greninja named often when people talk about TL and Pika. He also abuses his superior mobility to harass his foes and uses Shurikens to poke his opponent to see how they react.

For some characters it is a bit harder to find counterparts.
For example what is the closest thing to that of a Link?
I would personally say Ganondorf. Funny isn't it? Well what do these guys have in common? Strong punish game? Check. Neutral basing around pressure? Check. Amazing corner pressure? Check. Poor disadvantage state? Check. Their tools do differ a lot, but how they play and how they work as a character are rather similar.
Other character that is rather similar to that of a Link is another fellow swordfighter called Ike. He changes his neutral for better grab game which makes shielding against him a bit more dangerous.

Now that I think about it it is funny how Roy is similar to that of a Faptain while Ike is similar to that of a Ganondorf. Funny, eh? Anyways I will go back to my cave.

 

[Scot B]

Its not that MU ratios don't exist it's just that people put too much stock in them. At top level it's less about my character beats your character and more about the player vs player interaction.Meta Knight most definitely beats Peach, Luigi most definitely loses to Cloud. 60/40? 55/45? That can be debated. Samsora and Elegant I'm sure know they lose these MUs that why they have probably practiced them enough to where they are as proficient enough in them to where they can still win them often.

Unless your playing Brawl Meta Knight against Brawl Ganondorf you can never just expect to win because your MU chart says so.

There really is no way Luigi loses to cloud, because of all the tools he has Luigi makes up for. It's hard to grasp unless you play the character.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Is it just me or is this swordie discussion a wee bit misguided? Meta Knight and Toon Link function nothing like Marth or Cloud at all and we're comparing them just because they hold a sword?

It's more an informal discussion that's less a direct comparison and more an overall viability comparison. Comparing the nitty-gritty details would probably take half a webpage full of notes.

 

[Minordeth]

NAKAT has what feels like the most effective Fox style in top tier matchups.
New Fox players would find more success if they emulated his style and mixed in some Sodrek/Dugan/CDK/VoiD.
The Larry style of Fox will not work for the average player.

Pretty much. NAKAT has the closest play style to optimal Fox. He actually tries to play the MU rather than just play Fox. Most Fox players play every MU in the same way: they try to play their own game rather than adapting to what the opponents character can do.

Regardless, Fox is, probably, the best whiff punisher in the game. He also has a ton of safe options that don’t really get utilized outside of advantage. Spaced Bair and Nair are plus on shield drop, Bair especially is a pretty great tool.

The most calculated I remember NAKAT playing is against Ally in EVO 2016. In game 1 he truly played against Mario’s options and outside of a few mistakes, Ally couldn’t do a whole lot. NAKAT started flubbing a bit more as the games went on, but that first stock in Game 1 was basically perfect, calculated Fox play.

 

[Yonder]

There really is no way Luigi loses to cloud, because of all the tools he has Luigi makes up for. It's hard to grasp unless you play the character.

Luigi does probably lose to Cloud, about 55:45. It shows in the MKLeo/Elegant MU, Luigi has his d throw to 70 combos and cyclone offstage to ruin Cloud at 20, but you can see MKLeo mitigate these weakenesses more and more with each game. But they will always be there, and it limits Cloud from...well using limit o anything sides Up B or side b offstage when in yolo percent. Clouds sword and mobility is never not going to be a problem for Luigi. Mainly up air. Luigi cannot do anything against it except try to land again. All the aerials hurt him but Cloud's uair the most.

For future reference btw I wouldn't say people have no knowledge on a character at all just because they don't make them. There are some great theorists here that probably know more about Luigi, my main.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

There really is no way Luigi loses to cloud, because of all the tools he has Luigi makes up for. It's hard to grasp unless you play the character.

While yes you are correct I do not play Luigi or Cloud I have however seen the MU before and know what the characters can do at a fair enough level I can make that assertion. Luigi much like my character suffer the same weakness.

Slower characters speedwise, yes. (Luigi more so airborne and Ness more so ground borne)
Ability to approach, yes but fairly average at it.

Difficulty landing, yes

Disjointed moves, they exist but they aren't Cloud level large.

Cloud is much faster, has much more range and is one of the best juggle characters in the game. Cloud can effectively hit Luigi's or Ness shield safely since they have nothing to challenge that range, use his speed to reposition and repeat until either the Luigi or Ness can get past it and punish (which is what saves them in these MUs having such strong advantage states) or Cloud gets a hit and proceeds to juggle them and it's quite easy for him given how strong his juggling is and how hard it can be for those characters to land (Luigi even more so with no stall options or air speed to assist). Luigi also suffers from his physics if he doesn't power shield those already safe moves he gets pushed back so far things that aren't as safe become even safer which can make things really difficult to land that grab he needs.

I can therefore infer that if Luigi suffers the same disadvantages in the Cloud MU that my character does who loses to Cloud plus his own share of issues that it probably isn't a winning MU for him.

Obviously you have work around and Elegant has show that Luigi's absurd advantage mitigates a lot of his struggles in this MU but it's visibly a up hill battle that demonstrates Elegants incredible talent as a player to do well in such a match up.

Now like I mentioned I'm not a Luigi or Cloud expert if you can argue otherwise why it's not a losing MU for Luigi please do you main him you are more knowledgeable about his nuisances than I probably am but as I also mentioned I think I know enough to make the statements I have along with comparing it to similar characters that I am alot more familiar with.

 

[|RK|]

You really just have to watch Elegant at ledge, or even how he deals with bair to see how Luigi loses.

Actually, watch set 2 in general, after ZeRo coaches Leo.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

while we talking about Luigi MU's I wonder what the MU vs Sonic is considered like?
I know Sonic is considered one of Mario's worst MU's. at first I can't see it being much better for Luigi due to his low traction and overall lower mobility than Mario. Then again I can imagine Luigi can use his Cyclone to maybe beat out Spin Dashes

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Pretty much. NAKAT has the closest play style to optimal Fox. He actually tries to play the MU rather than just play Fox. Most Fox players play every MU in the same way: they try to play their own game rather than adapting to what the opponents character can do.

Regardless, Fox is, probably, the best whiff punisher in the game. He also has a ton of safe options that don’t really get utilized outside of advantage. Spaced Bair and Nair are plus on shield drop, Bair especially is a pretty great tool.

The most calculated I remember NAKAT playing is against Ally in EVO 2016. In game 1 he truly played against Mario’s options and outside of a few mistakes, Ally couldn’t do a whole lot. NAKAT started flubbing a bit more as the games went on, but that first stock in Game 1 was basically perfect, calculated Fox play.

Didn't finish watching it, because I think I've just figured something out.

I was watching it and was like," even though NAKAT plays more patient than Larry and is overall less risk-takey, it's still a very 'engaged' battle. Hmmmm" (aggressive, not massively so). I remember when I play online, me and my opponent would be waaaaay more conservative than that, and would play a real traditional 2d style neutral. I then thought about Larry and Nairo and others, and the "average players shouldn't play like them, only a few can make split-second decisions and have a CQC like them." Then i realized the biggest difference between us and top players is the CQC and the advantage state. Now with that build-up out the way, what are some strats and certain things that top players do up-close? I started thinking about it as I'm writing this, and I just thought about frame data knowledge similar to 3D fighters, but I don't know a lot. Anyone able to further explain? Am I just trippin?

 

[Rizen]

I might be underestimating , what are his confirms/combos?

Doesn't have better top tier MUs than , largely due to checkmate? TBH I don't know a lot about either character

 

[BSP]

Pretty much. NAKAT has the closest play style to optimal Fox. He actually tries to play the MU rather than just play Fox. Most Fox players play every MU in the same way: they try to play their own game rather than adapting to what the opponents character can do.

Regardless, Fox is, probably, the best whiff punisher in the game. He also has a ton of safe options that don’t really get utilized outside of advantage. Spaced Bair and Nair are plus on shield drop, Bair especially is a pretty great tool.

The most calculated I remember NAKAT playing is against Ally in EVO 2016. In game 1 he truly played against Mario’s options and outside of a few mistakes, Ally couldn’t do a whole lot. NAKAT started flubbing a bit more as the games went on, but that first stock in Game 1 was basically perfect, calculated Fox play.

This was my go to example when people tried to tell me that Mario's neutral is good.

As of now I don't think it's bad, but good? XD

Why do you think Fox is the best whiff punisher? For kills, probably so since his dash Usmash is so good. For damage racking, I'd think overall.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

nvm ignore this

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

I might be underestimating , what are his confirms/combos?

Doesn't have better top tier MUs than , largely due to checkmate? TBH I don't know a lot about either character

Roy has a lot ofconfirms out of jab, nair1, and tipper uair that kill at pretty reasonable %s, or can just yolo Blazer and ruin your day
I think he does okay vs Mario, ZSS, and M2 but other characters are kind of sketchy. His disadvantage hurts him a lot in matchups that would be otherwise decent

 

[jet56]

Off topic, but there has been a lot of recent discussion recently (mainly Salem and top sheik mains) that sheik loses multiple mu's and is not a top tier. https://mobile.twitter.com/BlankSmash/status/920476098391134208?p=v

I am quite curious as to what people here might think, and what Salems reasoning is behind it.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

I think top tier is Bayo, Cloud, Diddy. Sheik is the top of high tier. I think there is too much of a gap between Sheik and Cloud for them to be in the same tier. She is still 4th best, just not top tier.

 

[MercuryPenny]

i was under the impression that usually it was the top two tiers that were labelled the "top tier" characters

bayo/cloud/diddy are pretty much the only characters winning majors with any degree of consistency and to my knowledge shiek hasn't won any for herself in a very long time and has had rather inconsistent results. i said this a few pages ago but i never understood why everyone is putting shiek in the tip-top tier