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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Krysco

Aeon Hero
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
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Ontario, Canada
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3DS FC
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An issue I always found with using Thunder charge as a means of forcing approaches is simply how little opponents can care about it. Elthunder and Arcthunder aren't as dangerous as Shadow Ball or Charge Shot on their own, they don't provide mobility buffs like Limit, they aren't as fast as needles, there's no kill confirms into them like Waft (though Arcthunder itself can be a kill confirm into Levin aerials). You're also forced to shield/roll/jump/spotdodge if you don't want to fire it or go all the way to Thoron and Robin's OoS options are pretty bad, jumpsquat and aerial start up is slow. There also comes a point where you simply can't charge it for a bit due to durability though you do at least get the tome. Granted, even that comes with its own problems since you miss out on your normals and grab and you just lost a special. Plus item tosses are pretty slow (for cqc standards) with Robin's forward item toss being f10.

Elthunder only really kills off stage and Arcthunder requires Robin to be close for it to lead to kill confirms, unless he has an item in hand (though it can also kill on its own at later percents). It's more annoying for opponents if Robin has El or Arc over normal Thunder but it's still not as bad as other charge moves. Heck, Arcthunder becomes even less threatening if Robin doesn't have his Levin sword. Thunder isn't a bad move, I just find it underwhelming compared to other charging specials.
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,968
Location
Fascist ****Hole Of America
this is like comparing limit cross slash to mario's f-smash. fox's up smash has no sourspot and kills hella early, and back air autocancels for all but 6 frames. shiek's up smash relies on a precise sweet spot, bouncing fish requires a fair string to go out pretty much to the blast zone, vanish kills pretty late, i don't think bair is anywhere near the strength nor spammability of fox's bair, f-smash is super unreliable, and up air...is shiek's best option, actually.

i dont know how to finish posts like this
You're underestimating a lot of sheik's options. Usmash isn't hard to 'sweetspot' it's actually late hits that have the lower angle, bf has the power to kill from on stage and vanish has pretty good power. My point wasn't that Sheik's moves were better than Fox's respective versions but that she's not limited to her B&B Uair setup kills. Uair is the best so you see it most. Other times sheik needles>bf, ledge trump>bair, simply Fsmashes, vanishes air dodges, or dashes in with Usmash and they work too. Losing Uair's reliability would hurt her for sure but Sheik's fast and mobile enough she would still be a good character.
 

Illuminose

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2015
Messages
671
i can't see sheik dk being anything worse than a +1 mu in sheik's favor. it's not really about perfect play; it comes down to how badly sheik truly shuts down dk. dk is a character that struggles to deal with pressure that he can't shield grab (sheik's pressure) due to fairly poor oos options and poor defensive options in general. he also has poor landing options and even worse ledge options. it's legitimately difficult for dk to even be in a position to think 'all i need to do is get a grab' because sheik keeps him in situations where he simply doesn't have effective options to fight back. he's also legitimately not difficult whatsoever for sheik to kill because he's easy to ftilt on landing, relatively easy to edgeguard (bouncing fish rinse/repeat destroys his recovery), one of the easier characters to usmash on landing because he's huge, and easy to hit with soft nair->bouncing fish on ledge. if you think the matchup is won by playing safe neutral and avoiding grabs that way, or that sheik struggles to kill in the mu, you don't know it.

i don't think people understand the actual flaws in sheik's kill options. she has her own share of 'jank' i.e. ways to finish stocks early, especially on smashville but also on other stages, particularly vs recoveries that she can edgeguard (many of them). in mus where her ledge trapping is strong, she can set up kills consistently with nair and ftilt on ledge options. in matchups where her opponents struggle to land, she can catch them with a tilt->uair 50/50 or potential usmash on landing. she has the option of needles->bouncing fish to kill opponents offstage. in general, soft nair, which is not a difficult move to land, is good at converting into kills between early kills with usmash and slightly later kills with bouncing fish. soft bair converts into bouncing fish kills. in some mus, sheik can fthrow bf and actually kill with it, and there are others (including important ones like cloud and bayo) where she has an uthrow 50/50. sheik has varied kill options that she can look for safely and frequently find situations to land. the issue is that her setups start to disappear at a certain point, generally once her opponent passes 120/130 depending on sheik's level of rage. that's when sheik's 'struggle to kill' is actually a factor because she doesn't have good raw kill options. if you live past that point, there's a legitimate chance that you live until around 180-200%. this is important because sheik actually abuses rage and frequently kills earlier than her opponents in certain mus, such as sonic and bayo.

i wouldn't consider myself a 'sheik optimist'. i don't care about perfect play arguments, and i don't think she has a perfect mu spread (rosa has a slight advantage). i don't think that sheik has an incredibly dominant mu spread either, in a similar way that diddy doesn't dominate too many characters. however, i think people fundamentally misunderstand how sheik actually functions. yes, she has one of the best neutrals, but her advantage state is also insane. she doesn't win matchups like dk and lucario by winning neutral over and over; she does it by keeping them in bad positions and under pressure in a way that they don't really have the options to deal with effectively. i'm also pretty curious what all these matchups are that people seem to think sheik loses. even if you think sheik loses a couple more matchups than i do, i cannot see how sheik can be compared to characters like sonic and fox that lose more mus than sheik could possibly lose and have closer mus with more characters.
 

origamiscienceguy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 30, 2017
Messages
155
At least it is possible to land sheik's upsmash situationally... such as battlefield's platforms
 
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TDK

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
3,717
Location
British Columbia
NNID
GrayCN
or, if the opponent is tall enough, you can hit them with a tipper up smash while both of you are on the ground. That matters a lot in the :rosalina: matchup.
 

FeelMeUp

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Messages
1,015
Location
Houston, Texas
NNID
BathMonster
Neutral Air > Usmash can combo on missed tech vs certain characters during their flopping animation or while they're lying down. It's most noticeable against :4samus::4dk:.

Also, this hitbox is disgusting and much more generous than what was necessary. It flat out beats almost every landing option you can think of.
 

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Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
Don't get me wrong that definitely helps Zard and gives him a option to deal with grounded banana but he still has his slew of problems against Diddy especially getting off the ledge against Diddy's oppressive coverage.
 

Jaguar360

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100% with Locke with people sleeping on Sheik's advantage state. It has nothing the do with playing perfectly it's just a matter of covering options smartly. After getting a hit in neutral and converting to a long combo, no one is more likely to get extra hits in after the combo's done than Sheik with her frame data and mobility. She may not have true 70% followups off of grab like Luigi, but all that damage built up from juggling, ledge coverage and edgeguards adds up. She can throw out so many attacks when you're in disadvantage, she's almost bound to at least get a hit in. And it's not just for damage building, Sheik kill off a stray u-air/b-air/f-air/n-air in advantage too if percent allows. If you thought neutral was bad for DK in the Sheik matchup, disadvantage state is a whole lot worse. Oh he'll probably land eventually because we're not talking about perfect Sheik play here but it'll take a while. Not to mention his recovery is so vulnerable to Needles and Bouncing Fish from the top.

Remember when Emblem Lord said this?
Big ups for Larry for knowing he is bad vs Ryu. Fox has the tools to win that match consistently. He knows he likes to attack and dies for it.

As far as Melee-esque oki in Smash 4, only Cloud can really do it. Especially with limit he can get a forward throw and easily just weave in and out and cover any ground option on reaction. More then likely your opponent will jump and then you can just move under them. But Cloud players do not play this way, though they are getting there.

In Brawl you could do some very easy mode set play stuff. Like Snake d-throw then hold shield. Covers everything but roll away. If you see that then you just drop shield and re-position. Once you pick up on their habits you can get ballsy like d-throw then walk forward to f-smash for early kills.

It is entirely about reducing the game to the lowest denominator. Where you can think far less about what YOU need to do. And more about what your opponent is doing. Air to ground traps are strong set play in Smash. Easy set play there would be what Cloud does with low to the ground repeated uair traps. The hitbox is above him, protecting his hurtbox and most characters cannot challenge. If they do they get hit the trap resets. If they go to platform then they are at disadvantage as they are still above Cloud. Go to ledge same story. Ledge trap scenario.


So yeah, Cloud players should u-throw more and stuff.

Don't get u-thrown vs cloud you dummies.

People think getting good at fighting games is like 90% mindgames but that is just stupid and false. Fighting games are just being abusive as possible without giving up alot of ground to your opponent. Put them in crap situations and let that situation lead to more crap situations. Do not let yourself get put into crap situations. If you find yourself taking alot of risks you either suck or your character sucks.
This is exactly what Sheik excels at doing: putting characters in crappy situations and vortexes of sort with little risk to herself. The odds are in her favor in both neutral and advantage state and can continue to be so for a while. She's not a perfect character, she struggles to kill sometimes and has a few contenders for losing matchups, but we need to remember that winning neutral 5 billion times in a row in 20XX is not why Sheik's supposed to be good.
 

HoSmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
688
Not many sheik's other than me use it yet but untechabble nair to sourspot usmash is actually very good since it's a lot faster than BF which catches people di'ing poorly as they keep holding away until the BF comes. If they get untechabble nair and prepare di in (everyone player WILL try to Tech but little known when you do this your buffer the tech option if you miss) chances are they'll buffer a Tech in, setting an easy tech chase situation
 
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soniczx123

Smash Journeyman
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SW-2963-6512-0416
definitely, definitely with how the meta is progressing.
Can't deny it
Can and will.

Sonic counterplay is evolving faster than ever while his own meta hasn't evolved at the same rate.

Doesn't help that the Bayo MU is becoming worse and worse with time and people in general getting better at handling his neutral and abusing his disadvantage harder.
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
Can and will.

Sonic counterplay is evolving faster than ever while his own meta hasn't evolved at the same rate.

Doesn't help that the Bayo MU is becoming worse and worse with time and people in general getting better at handling his neutral and abusing his disadvantage harder.
The Bayo MU looking bad for Sonic is mostly due to Salem, who can truly, legitemately be called the "Sonic Killer" since I do not think he has lost a set to a Sonic player ever.

Still I think besides Salem Bayo has a pretty good record vs Sonic overall.
 
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MERPIS

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User was warned for this post
Can and will.

Sonic counterplay is evolving faster than ever while his own meta hasn't evolved at the same rate.

Doesn't help that the Bayo MU is becoming worse and worse with time and people in general getting better at handling his neutral and abusing his disadvantage harder.
Don't bring that garbage into here, you're wrong ;)
 

soniczx123

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The Bayo MU looking bad for Sonic is mostly due to Salem, who can truly, legitemately be called the "Sonic Killer" since I do not think he has lost a set to a Sonic player ever.

Still I think besides Salem Bayo has a pretty good record vs Sonic overall.
Salem showcases it the best, but overall the MU in general has developed to be in her favor due to her range, safe buttons and overwhelming punish games, making it hard for Sonic to play neutral and reset to neutral after advantage/disadvantage.
 

Nathan Richardson

Smash Ace
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https://youtu.be/4X73S9fEQDE
This is actually really interesting
I've noticed this a lot while playing zard, maybe he'll end up as a sleeper Diddy CP
That is interesting not to mention helps zard out but even knowing this as was stated earlier how does zard deal with diddy's other options? I've beaten diddys before but it's always been a headache and a half because of how easily diddy trumps zard when it comes to things like combos, ledge trapping, and kill confirms. Just because you have a way around one option doesn't mean you can win the MU. It just makes it a little easier.
 
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Baby_Sneak

Smash Champion
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Middletown, Ohio
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Don't bring that garbage into here, you're wrong ;)
bruh

a explanation would be nice.
Salem showcases it the best, but overall the MU in general has developed to be in her favor due to her range, safe buttons and overwhelming punish games, making it hard for Sonic to play neutral and reset to neutral after advantage/disadvantage.
where would you place sonic on the tier list?
 

Das Koopa

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B I G U P D A T E




GameTyrant Expo 2017 (September 29th-October 1st) (Southwest) (332 Entrants) (Category 4)
1st:
FOX MVG | MKLeo :4cloud2:, :4marth:, :4metaknight:
2nd:
BSD | Elegant :4luigi:
3rd:
TSM | ZeRo :4diddy:
4th:
MSF | Larry Lurr :4fox:,,:4marth:
5th:
IMT | ANTi :4mario:,:4cloud2:
5th:
bc | Mr. R :4sheik:
7th:
E2C | DarkShad :4ryu:
7th:
Samsora :4peach:
9th:
LH | Charliedaking :4fox:
9th:
RNG | Dabuz :rosalina:
9th:
NRG | Nairo :4zss:,,:4bowser:
9th:
MVG | Salem :4bayonetta:
13th:
Yatta | JK :4bayonetta:
13th:
eM | Zenyou :4mario:
13th:
EG | Zinoto :4diddy:
13th:
Raito :4duckhunt:
17th:
P1 | Tweek :4cloud2:
17th:
CLG | VoiD :4sheik:
17th:
PiXL :4ryu:
17th:
CLG | NAKAT :4ness:,:4dk:
17th:
PG | MVD :4diddy:
17th:
Marss :4zss:
17th:
PG | ESAM :4pikachu:
17th:
2GG | komorikiri :4cloud2:
25th:
C9 | Ally :4mario:
25th:
LG | Abadango :4bayonetta: &:4mewtwo:
25th:
EMG | Mistake :4bayonetta:
25th:
YP | Fatality :4falcon:
25th:
CL | Legit :4diddy:
25th:
Calculus :4bayonetta:
25th:
Tyrant :4metaknight:
25th:
P1 | Captain Zack :4bayonetta:

1st: SilentRain :4bayonetta: & :4mario:
2nd: Orbit :4falcon:,:4metaknight:
3rd: TrueMain :4sonic:
4th: Ackeron :4mario:
5th: Slow~Hand :4link:
5th: Jerd :4fox:
7th: AsteKZZz :4pikachu:
7th: 33Moe :4falco:


1st: Purple~H :4cloud2:
2nd: S1 :4ness:
3rd: LoNg0uw :4rob:,, :4fox:
4th: wusi :4fox:
5th: SirJon :4bayonetta:
5th: Tsunayoshi :4corrinf:
7th: Eddy :4greninja:, :4falcon:
7th: Samuu :4bayonetta:

1st: Blacktwins :4mario: & :4cloud2:, :4diddy:
2nd: Fwed :4fox:
3rd: Deathorse :4mewtwo:
4th: BB :4mewtwo:
5th: Mr. Farenheit :4gaw:
5th: BreaD :4zss:
7th: THUNDER :4ryu:,, :4diddy:
7th: Z :4mewtwo:,, :4diddy:

1st: Light :4fox:
2nd: Dark Wizzy :4mario:
3rd: Pugwest :4marth:
4th: Craftis :4sonic:
5th: Scot! :4luigi:
5th: Glare :4bayonetta:
7th: LingLing :4peach:
7th: PACageFruits :4pacman:

1st: RFang :4mario:
2nd: Donquavious :4greninja:
3rd: Peabnut :4megaman:
4th: ARS3 :4sonic:
5th: Mekos :4lucas:
5th: Black Yoshi :4bayonetta:
7th: Zebra :4mewtwo:
7th: Cowhunter :4cloud2:

1st: Plastic Poptart :4lucina:
2nd: Peli :4sonic:
3rd: Kibzu~ :4bayonetta:,:4sheik:,,:4cloud2:
4th: Khanage :4peach:

1st: Elexiao :4greninja:
2nd: Griffith :4fox:, :4bayonetta:
3rd: Homika :rosalina:
4th: Myollnir :4bayonetta:, :4kirby:

1st: Sylarius :4cloud2:
2nd: Scubbss :4marth:
3rd: Wake :4sheik:
4th: pink :4zss:

1st: Seagull Joe :4sonic: & :4diddy:
2nd: Sandstorm :4ryu:
3rd: Pink Fresh :4bayonetta:
4th: SirHunk :4cloud2:

1st: Shoyo James :4diddy:
2nd: 6WX :4sonic:
3rd: Vivid :4bayonetta: & :4lucario:
4th: Sync :4cloud2:

1st: LOE1 :4luigi:
2nd: Nom :4sheik:
3rd: SETHsational :4falcon:
4th: Runes :4fox:

The Big House 7 (October 8th) (Midwest) (512 Entrants) (Category 4) (Category 5- for player ranking)
1st:
Dabuz :rosalina:
2nd:
Marss :4zss:, :4falcon:
3rd:
Cosmos :4corrinf:
4th:
TSM | ZeRo :4diddy:
5th:
PG | MVD :4diddy:
5th:
MVG | Salem :4bayonetta:
7th:
MSF | Larry Lurr :4fox:
7th:
C9 | Ally :4mario:
9th:
bc | Mr. R :4sheik:
9th:
CLG | VoiD :4sheik:
9th:
NRG | Nairo :4zss:
9th:
2GG | komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4sonic:
13th:
P1 | Captain Zack :4bayonetta:
13th:
Raito :4duckhunt:
13th:
EG | Zinoto :4diddy:
13th:
FSTEP | Mr. E :4lucina:, :4marth:
17th:
DMG | MattyG :4cloud2:
17th:
P1 | Tweek :4cloud2:
17th:
LG | Abadango :4bayonetta: & :4mewtwo:
17th:
dyr :4diddy:
17th:
E2C | tyroy :4bayonetta:
17th:
Gackt :4ness:
17th:
Light :4fox:
17th:
Javi :4cloud2: & :4sheik:
25th:
Ned :4cloud2:
25th:
CLG | NAKAT :4fox: & :4ness:
25th:
EMG | Mistake :4bayonetta:
25th:
Lagnel :4bayonetta:, :4zss:
25th:
Ronin | Xzax :4fox:
25th:
PG | ESAM :4pikachu:
25th:
Ryuga :4corrinf:
25th:
EMG LGS | Blacktwins :4cloud2: & :4mario:

1st: Mistake :4bayonetta:, :4zss:
2nd: Abadango :4bayonetta:,, :4metaknight:
3rd: Raffi-X :4rob:
4th: Blacktwins :4cloud2:, :4lucina:
5th: DarkShad :4ryu:
5th: Tyroy :4bayonetta:, :4metaknight:
7th: Ned :4cloud2:
7th: Salem :4samus:, :4bayonetta:

1st: Craftis :4sonic:
2nd: Axiom XL :4cloud2:
3rd: Dreadfighter :4cloud2:
4th: PWNAGEPOLICE :4dedede:

1st: Sonido :4sonic:
2nd: Dr. :4falcon:
3rd: Pipp :4sheik: & :4ryu:
4th: Kasei :4marth: & :4bayonetta:

1st: Bedgar :4sheik:
2nd: Lalo :4pikachu:
3rd: Brian :4bowser:
4th: FuerzaDON :4shulk:

1st: Slither2Hunter :4metaknight:
2nd: ELDON :4mario:
3rd: PsydB :4villager:
4th: Ant :4villager:

1st: ChillyChilli :4mario:
2nd: C2 :rosalina:
3rd: Mopn :4feroy:
4th: Lilbigham :4luigi:

2GGC: Fire Emblem Saga (October 14th-15th) (Southern California) (351 Entrants) (Category 4)
1st:
MVG | Salem :4bayonetta:
2nd:
NRG | Nairo :4zss:
3rd:
2GG | komorikiri :4cloud2:,,:4corrinf:,,:4feroy:
4th:
P1 | Tweek :4cloud2:, :4bayonetta:,, :4dk:
5th:
CLG | VoiD :4sheik:
5th:
Manny :4sonic:
7th:
Shuton :4olimar:, :4shulk:
7th:
Samsora :4peach:
9th:
Ac :4metaknight:
9th:
FOX MVG | MKLeo :4cloud2:, :4marth:
9th:
EMP | WaDi :4mewtwo:
9th:
Kirihara :rosalina:
13th:
StDx | Falln :rosalina:
13th:
EMG | Mistake :4bayonetta:
13th:
FSTEP | Mr. E :4lucina:, :4marth:
13th:
FSTEP | Tyrant :4metaknight:
17th:
Ryuga :4corrinf:
17th:
KEN :4sonic:
17th:
CLG | NAKAT :4ness: & :4fox:
17th:
P1 | Captain Zack :4bayonetta:
17th:
Eon :4fox:
17th:
Razo :4peach:
17th:
Mystearica :4bayonetta:
17th:
Cosmos :4corrinf:
25th:
Vinnie :4sheik:, :rosalina:
25th:
Ryo :4myfriends:
25th:
eM | Zenyou :4mario:
25th:
Locus :4ryu:
25th:
MSF | Larry Lurr :4fox:
25th:
YOC :4corrinf:, :4sheik:
25th:
LG | Abadango :4mewtwo: & :4bayonetta:
25th:
BSD | Elegant :4luigi:

1st: Lima :4bayonetta:
2nd: Megafox :4fox:
3rd: Shadow_PR :4bayonetta:
4th: Espy :4sonic:
5th: Karna :4sheik:
5th: Jumbolias :4ryu:
7th: SaSSy :4rob:
7th: Whispy :4diddy:

1st: cyve :4diddy:, :4bayonetta:
2nd: LoNg0uw :4rob:,,:4cloud2:
3rd: quiK :4zss:
4th: Tomenimo :4corrinf:
5th: BluB :4bayonetta:
5th: Light :4sheik:
7th: Like :4sonic:
7th: SirJon :4bayonetta:

1st: Wrath :4sonic:, :4bayonetta:
2nd: SaltOne :4cloud2:
3rd: Fatality :4falcon:
4th: Sonido :4sonic:
5th: Danye :4diddy:
5th: Rango :4myfriends:, :4bowser:
7th: CC :4sonic:
7th: Nova :4lucas:

1st: WaDi :4mewtwo:
2nd: komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4corrinf:, :4feroy:
3rd: KEN :4sonic:
4th: Shuton :4olimar:
5th: Manny :4sonic:
5th: Abadango :4bayonetta:
7th: Javi :4cloud2: & :4sheik:
7th: Elegant :4luigi:

1st: Rayquaza07 :rosalina:
2nd: SETHsational :4falcon:
3rd: Boobear :4ness:
4th: Ryoku :4bayonetta:

1st: Extra :4gaw:
2nd: Waveguider :4greninja:, :4wiifit:
3rd: Tru4 :4shulk:, :4bayonetta:
4th: Sriks :4shulk:, :4luigi:

1st: D-danzee :4sheik:
2nd: Meerko :4lucina:
3rd: TylerDX :4lucas:,, :4diddy:
4th: Sim-Max :4rob:

1st: Glutonny :4wario:, :4cloud2:, :4ganondorf:
2nd: Ogey :4falcon:
3rd: TheFlow :4feroy:
4th: Meru :4peach:, :4zelda:

1st: Light :4fox:
2nd: LingLing :4peach:
3rd: Pelca :4cloud2:, :4diddy:,, :4fox:
4th: Glare :4bayonetta: & :4dk:

1st: Blacktwins :4mario: & :4cloud2:
2nd: SDX :4mewtwo:
3rd: THUNDER :4ryu:
4th: iModerz :4fox:

1st: Revoredo :4sonic:
2nd: Luffy :4tlink:
3rd: FullMoon :4greninja:
4th: Holy :rosalina:

1st: BANG! :4diddy:
2nd: Fahrenheit :4bowser:
3rd: Upchuckle :4greninja:, :4charizard:
4th: Diago :4marth:

1st: Ander :4cloud2:
2nd: slump :rosalina:
3rd: Riaz :4zss:
4th: D.ku :4lucas:

1st: Big D :4mario:, :4dedede:
2nd: Captain L :4pikachu:
3rd: Zak :4diddy:
4th: SilentRain :4mario:, :4bayonetta:,, :4greninja:

1st: Thor :4cloud2:
2nd: Braxton8 :4lucario:
3rd: Geo :4bayonetta:
4th: Shadic :4peach:

1st: Pablo :4mewtwo:
2nd: Don Papi :4mario:, :4cloud2:, :4samus:
3rd: FeerLA :4robinf:
4th: Vyral :4dk:, :rosalina:

1st: Ned :4cloud2:
2nd: tyroy :4bayonetta:
3rd: Dan :4mario:
4th: big_mak :4sheik:

1st: BestNess :4ness:
2nd: VaLoR :4sonic:
3rd: Lada :4rob:
4th: Calculus :4bayonetta:

1st: Strike :4sheik:
2nd: Jackson :4villager:
3rd: Ragna :4ryu:, :4cloud2:
4th: DJCoolKids :4metaknight:, :4mewtwo:, :4sheik:

Bayonetta: 252
Cloud: 224.75
Diddy Kong: 190.75
Fox: 160
Sheik: 154
Sonic: 153
Mario: 145.75
Zero Suit Samus: 87.5
Rosalina & Luma: 86
Mewtwo: 77.5
Captain Falcon: 67
Ryu: 62.5
Meta Knight: 52.25
Ness: 50.5
Greninja: 49.25
Luigi: 48
Corrin: 46
Peach: 39
Toon Link: 38
Pikachu: 35.5
Marth: 27.25
R.O.B.: 25.25
Lucina: 24.5
Olimar: 24
Villager: 24
Donkey Kong: 21.75
Roy: 21.5
Mega Man: 19
Samus: 16.5
Yoshi: 16
Shulk: 15.5
Link: 15.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 15
Lucas: 15
Ike: 15
Bowser: 14.5
Lucario: 13
Wario: 10
Duck Hunt: 10
Little Mac: 7
Ganondorf: 6
Falco: 5
Robin: 5
King Dedede: 5
Wii Fit Trainer: 4.5
Palutena: 3
Zelda: 2.5
Pit: 2
Bowser Jr.: 2
Charizard: 2
Pac-Man: 1
Kirby: 0.5
Jigglypuff: 0.25
 

Lord Dio

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The big thing I got from the BSD video ws how Falcon can do both the tricks. Might be useful and worth noting for future Fatality vs Diddy sets.
 

verbatim

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 29, 2015
Messages
618
I would actually argue that Sheik has no real defensive weaknesses. The most you could say is that she's kind of light, kind of average-sized, and falls kind of fast.
She doesn't have a good combo breaking move. Imagine if Sheik (or Sonic) had Villager/Luigi's nair.
 

FeelMeUp

Smash Lord
Joined
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Location
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NNID
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She doesn't have a good combo breaking move. Imagine if Sheik (or Sonic) had Villager/Luigi's nair.
Well, her nair is the same as theirs startup wise. It's her fallspeed/gravity combination that makes her unable to use it nearly immediately after getting hit.
 

Finh009

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
143
Location
Hidden Village
NNID
Finh009
Sumabato 21 (Kansai, Japan) (177 Entrants)

1st. Mangalitza ♀ :4cloud2:
2nd. Kome :4shulk:
3rd. Selcia :4cloud:
4th. Masashi :4cloud2:
5th. Lagnel :4zss::4bayonetta2:
5th. Mao :4cloud2:
7th. Choco :4zss:
7th. Parme :4samus:

9th. 2GG | Komorikiri :4feroy:
9th. Kuro :4fox:
9th. Shachi :4sheik:
9th. Shogun :4fox:
13th. Ako :4zss:
13th. HIKARU :4dk:
13th. Ri-ma :4tlink:
13th. Sigma :4tlink:

I see the Japanese Clouds decided to take a break from Online and raid this tourney. But it's nice to see :4shulk: put in some work.
 

The-Technique

Smash Ace
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Messages
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luckysharm
Odd to see Shulk place over the likes of Choco and....3 different Cloud mains?

But this IS Kome we're talking about, good to see him putting in work
 

Yonder

Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
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Messages
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Location
Canada,BC
NNID
Skullicide
3DS FC
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Sumabato 21 (Kansai, Japan) (177 Entrants)

1st. Mangalitza ♀ :4cloud2:
2nd. Kome :4shulk:
3rd. Selcia :4cloud:
4th. Masashi :4cloud2:
5th. Lagnel :4zss::4bayonetta2:
5th. Mao :4cloud2:
7th. Choco :4zss:
7th. Parme :4samus:

9th. 2GG | Komorikiri :4feroy:
9th. Kuro :4fox:
9th. Shachi :4sheik:
9th. Shogun :4fox:
13th. Ako :4zss:
13th. HIKARU :4dk:
13th. Ri-ma :4tlink:
13th. Sigma :4tlink:

I see the Japanese Clouds decided to take a break from Online and raid this tourney. But it's nice to see :4shulk: put in some work.
Nice to see Komo going all Roy. He probably could have taken the event convincingly with Cloud, but uses the opportunity to train one of his secondaries instead.
 

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
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3DS FC
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Sumabato 21 (Kansai, Japan) (177 Entrants)

1st. Mangalitza ♀ :4cloud2:
2nd. Kome :4shulk:
3rd. Selcia :4cloud:
4th. Masashi :4cloud2:
5th. Lagnel :4zss::4bayonetta2:
5th. Mao :4cloud2:
7th. Choco :4zss:
7th. Parme :4samus:

9th. 2GG | Komorikiri :4feroy:
9th. Kuro :4fox:
9th. Shachi :4sheik:
9th. Shogun :4fox:
13th. Ako :4zss:
13th. HIKARU :4dk:
13th. Ri-ma :4tlink:
13th. Sigma :4tlink:

I see the Japanese Clouds decided to take a break from Online and raid this tourney. But it's nice to see :4shulk: put in some work.

okay I take it back Cloud > Diddy
 

valakmtnsmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
708
NNID
yathshiv
Odd to see Shulk place over the likes of Choco and....3 different Cloud mains?

But this IS Kome we're talking about, good to see him putting in work
Not surprised he placed above the clouds, Kome's record against them is stupid good. I think the only cloud he doesnt have a winning record against is mattun, and even that is an even record. He played the cloud matchup pretty differently from most shulk players, as he was more focused on winning thr onstage game than gimping at early percents. Definitely gonna study these vods though, and its great seeing Kome back in form. :p
 

Lord Dio

Smash Champion
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FE Saga (I wish)
3DS FC
1435-7744-1699
Looks like a good sumabato, people really showed up. Lotta Clouds and ZSS's two Fox's and Tink's, and DK, Samus, and Shulk doing well.
Super happy Komo's training his roy up, could probably take the title of best secondary roy if he puts in a lil more time and practice
But also a lil upset because he could have taken the whole thing with Cloud and instead settled for 9th.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
So it is :4bayonetta::4cloud2:>:4diddy:>:4sheik: as far as the very top of the top tier characters? . Or maybe replace Sheik with Rosa?
When bayo results look like clouds I'll give you that order until then cloud has become the top character. He's become the best in both singles and doubles at this point. I know was koopas results have bayo at the top but in large tournaments with high level players her placement is unpredictable not even cpsistent top 8.while cloud and diddy are always present in top 8.
(keep in mind I am not counting tweek bayo as it's barely better than aba)
 

Illusion.

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Switch FC
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Huh? Bayonetta’s results are better than Cloud’s. I don’t know what results you’re looking at where Bayonetta “isn’t consistent” and Cloud is outperforming her. We just had her win 3 S tiers, had 9 in top 64 of EVO, 4 in top 8 of LTC 5... and the list goes on.
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
Huh? Bayonetta’s results are better than Cloud’s. I don’t know what results you’re looking at where Bayonetta “isn’t consistent” and Cloud is outperforming her. We just had her win 3 S tiers, had 9 in top 64 of EVO, 4 in top 8 of LTC 5... and the list goes on.

The only big event where there has not been at least one Bayo in the top 8 in recent memory was GTX . Bayo has been as consistent as Diddy and Cloud and deserves to be considered as high up on the list as them. I seriously cannot see how you can aruge otherwise .
 
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Skeeter Mania

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Messages
959
Location
Highland Heights, KY
NNID
Ampharos2935
Huh? Bayonetta’s results are better than Cloud’s. I don’t know what results you’re looking at where Bayonetta “isn’t consistent” and Cloud is outperforming her. We just had her win 3 S tiers, had 9 in top 64 of EVO, 4 in top 8 of LTC 5... and the list goes on.
Also there were no Clouds in BH7's Top 8, and players like Tweek, Ned, and Komo showed up.
 

The-Technique

Smash Ace
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Messages
613
Location
Maryland
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luckysharm
wait when did we suddenly start praising cloud as the best singles character? i feel like people forget that the 3 best cloud mains have a minimum of 3 secondaries each, which seriously makes me doubt his viability as a solo main, as opposed to the bayonettas, diddys, sheiks, and to a lesser extent rosalinas that currently dominate

also i guess talks of banning bayonetta are over? thank goodness for that
 
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