Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Krysco]

An issue I always found with using Thunder charge as a means of forcing approaches is simply how little opponents can care about it. Elthunder and Arcthunder aren't as dangerous as Shadow Ball or Charge Shot on their own, they don't provide mobility buffs like Limit, they aren't as fast as needles, there's no kill confirms into them like Waft (though Arcthunder itself can be a kill confirm into Levin aerials). You're also forced to shield/roll/jump/spotdodge if you don't want to fire it or go all the way to Thoron and Robin's OoS options are pretty bad, jumpsquat and aerial start up is slow. There also comes a point where you simply can't charge it for a bit due to durability though you do at least get the tome. Granted, even that comes with its own problems since you miss out on your normals and grab and you just lost a special. Plus item tosses are pretty slow (for cqc standards) with Robin's forward item toss being f10.

Elthunder only really kills off stage and Arcthunder requires Robin to be close for it to lead to kill confirms, unless he has an item in hand (though it can also kill on its own at later percents). It's more annoying for opponents if Robin has El or Arc over normal Thunder but it's still not as bad as other charge moves. Heck, Arcthunder becomes even less threatening if Robin doesn't have his Levin sword. Thunder isn't a bad move, I just find it underwhelming compared to other charging specials.

 

[Rizen]

this is like comparing limit cross slash to mario's f-smash. fox's up smash has no sourspot and kills hella early, and back air autocancels for all but 6 frames. shiek's up smash relies on a precise sweet spot, bouncing fish requires a fair string to go out pretty much to the blast zone, vanish kills pretty late, i don't think bair is anywhere near the strength nor spammability of fox's bair, f-smash is super unreliable, and up air...is shiek's best option, actually.

i dont know how to finish posts like this

You're underestimating a lot of sheik's options. Usmash isn't hard to 'sweetspot' it's actually late hits that have the lower angle, bf has the power to kill from on stage and vanish has pretty good power. My point wasn't that Sheik's moves were better than Fox's respective versions but that she's not limited to her B&B Uair setup kills. Uair is the best so you see it most. Other times sheik needles>bf, ledge trump>bair, simply Fsmashes, vanishes air dodges, or dashes in with Usmash and they work too. Losing Uair's reliability would hurt her for sure but Sheik's fast and mobile enough she would still be a good character.

 

[Illuminose]

i can't see sheik dk being anything worse than a +1 mu in sheik's favor. it's not really about perfect play; it comes down to how badly sheik truly shuts down dk. dk is a character that struggles to deal with pressure that he can't shield grab (sheik's pressure) due to fairly poor oos options and poor defensive options in general. he also has poor landing options and even worse ledge options. it's legitimately difficult for dk to even be in a position to think 'all i need to do is get a grab' because sheik keeps him in situations where he simply doesn't have effective options to fight back. he's also legitimately not difficult whatsoever for sheik to kill because he's easy to ftilt on landing, relatively easy to edgeguard (bouncing fish rinse/repeat destroys his recovery), one of the easier characters to usmash on landing because he's huge, and easy to hit with soft nair->bouncing fish on ledge. if you think the matchup is won by playing safe neutral and avoiding grabs that way, or that sheik struggles to kill in the mu, you don't know it.

i don't think people understand the actual flaws in sheik's kill options. she has her own share of 'jank' i.e. ways to finish stocks early, especially on smashville but also on other stages, particularly vs recoveries that she can edgeguard (many of them). in mus where her ledge trapping is strong, she can set up kills consistently with nair and ftilt on ledge options. in matchups where her opponents struggle to land, she can catch them with a tilt->uair 50/50 or potential usmash on landing. she has the option of needles->bouncing fish to kill opponents offstage. in general, soft nair, which is not a difficult move to land, is good at converting into kills between early kills with usmash and slightly later kills with bouncing fish. soft bair converts into bouncing fish kills. in some mus, sheik can fthrow bf and actually kill with it, and there are others (including important ones like cloud and bayo) where she has an uthrow 50/50. sheik has varied kill options that she can look for safely and frequently find situations to land. the issue is that her setups start to disappear at a certain point, generally once her opponent passes 120/130 depending on sheik's level of rage. that's when sheik's 'struggle to kill' is actually a factor because she doesn't have good raw kill options. if you live past that point, there's a legitimate chance that you live until around 180-200%. this is important because sheik actually abuses rage and frequently kills earlier than her opponents in certain mus, such as sonic and bayo.

i wouldn't consider myself a 'sheik optimist'. i don't care about perfect play arguments, and i don't think she has a perfect mu spread (rosa has a slight advantage). i don't think that sheik has an incredibly dominant mu spread either, in a similar way that diddy doesn't dominate too many characters. however, i think people fundamentally misunderstand how sheik actually functions. yes, she has one of the best neutrals, but her advantage state is also insane. she doesn't win matchups like dk and lucario by winning neutral over and over; she does it by keeping them in bad positions and under pressure in a way that they don't really have the options to deal with effectively. i'm also pretty curious what all these matchups are that people seem to think sheik loses. even if you think sheik loses a couple more matchups than i do, i cannot see how sheik can be compared to characters like sonic and fox that lose more mus than sheik could possibly lose and have closer mus with more characters.

 

[soniczx123]

calling it now, sonic will eventually replace sheik in the 4th spot
and he will never move anywhere else...

Nope, not with how the meta is progressing

 

[origamiscienceguy]

At least it is possible to land sheik's upsmash situationally... such as battlefield's platforms

 

[TDK]

or, if the opponent is tall enough, you can hit them with a tipper up smash while both of you are on the ground. That matters a lot in the matchup.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Neutral Air > Usmash can combo on missed tech vs certain characters during their flopping animation or while they're lying down. It's most noticeable against .

Also, this hitbox is disgusting and much more generous than what was necessary. It flat out beats almost every landing option you can think of.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

https://youtu.be/4X73S9fEQDE
This is actually really interesting
I've noticed this a lot while playing zard, maybe he'll end up as a sleeper Diddy CP

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Don't get me wrong that definitely helps Zard and gives him a option to deal with grounded banana but he still has his slew of problems against Diddy especially getting off the ledge against Diddy's oppressive coverage.

 

[MERPIS]

Nope, not with how the meta is progressing

definitely, definitely with how the meta is progressing.
Can't deny it

 

[Jaguar360]

100% with Locke with people sleeping on Sheik's advantage state. It has nothing the do with playing perfectly it's just a matter of covering options smartly. After getting a hit in neutral and converting to a long combo, no one is more likely to get extra hits in after the combo's done than Sheik with her frame data and mobility. She may not have true 70% followups off of grab like Luigi, but all that damage built up from juggling, ledge coverage and edgeguards adds up. She can throw out so many attacks when you're in disadvantage, she's almost bound to at least get a hit in. And it's not just for damage building, Sheik kill off a stray u-air/b-air/f-air/n-air in advantage too if percent allows. If you thought neutral was bad for DK in the Sheik matchup, disadvantage state is a whole lot worse. Oh he'll probably land eventually because we're not talking about perfect Sheik play here but it'll take a while. Not to mention his recovery is so vulnerable to Needles and Bouncing Fish from the top.

Remember when Emblem Lord said this?

Big ups for Larry for knowing he is bad vs Ryu. Fox has the tools to win that match consistently. He knows he likes to attack and dies for it.

As far as Melee-esque oki in Smash 4, only Cloud can really do it. Especially with limit he can get a forward throw and easily just weave in and out and cover any ground option on reaction. More then likely your opponent will jump and then you can just move under them. But Cloud players do not play this way, though they are getting there.

In Brawl you could do some very easy mode set play stuff. Like Snake d-throw then hold shield. Covers everything but roll away. If you see that then you just drop shield and re-position. Once you pick up on their habits you can get ballsy like d-throw then walk forward to f-smash for early kills.

It is entirely about reducing the game to the lowest denominator. Where you can think far less about what YOU need to do. And more about what your opponent is doing. Air to ground traps are strong set play in Smash. Easy set play there would be what Cloud does with low to the ground repeated uair traps. The hitbox is above him, protecting his hurtbox and most characters cannot challenge. If they do they get hit the trap resets. If they go to platform then they are at disadvantage as they are still above Cloud. Go to ledge same story. Ledge trap scenario.

So yeah, Cloud players should u-throw more and stuff.

Don't get u-thrown vs cloud you dummies.

People think getting good at fighting games is like 90% mindgames but that is just stupid and false. Fighting games are just being abusive as possible without giving up alot of ground to your opponent. Put them in crap situations and let that situation lead to more crap situations. Do not let yourself get put into crap situations. If you find yourself taking alot of risks you either suck or your character sucks.

This is exactly what Sheik excels at doing: putting characters in crappy situations and vortexes of sort with little risk to herself. The odds are in her favor in both neutral and advantage state and can continue to be so for a while. She's not a perfect character, she struggles to kill sometimes and has a few contenders for losing matchups, but we need to remember that winning neutral 5 billion times in a row in 20XX is not why Sheik's supposed to be good.

 

[HoSmash4]

Not many sheik's other than me use it yet but untechabble nair to sourspot usmash is actually very good since it's a lot faster than BF which catches people di'ing poorly as they keep holding away until the BF comes. If they get untechabble nair and prepare di in (everyone player WILL try to Tech but little known when you do this your buffer the tech option if you miss) chances are they'll buffer a Tech in, setting an easy tech chase situation

 

[soniczx123]

definitely, definitely with how the meta is progressing.
Can't deny it

Can and will.

Sonic counterplay is evolving faster than ever while his own meta hasn't evolved at the same rate.

Doesn't help that the Bayo MU is becoming worse and worse with time and people in general getting better at handling his neutral and abusing his disadvantage harder.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Can and will.

Sonic counterplay is evolving faster than ever while his own meta hasn't evolved at the same rate.

Doesn't help that the Bayo MU is becoming worse and worse with time and people in general getting better at handling his neutral and abusing his disadvantage harder.

The Bayo MU looking bad for Sonic is mostly due to Salem, who can truly, legitemately be called the "Sonic Killer" since I do not think he has lost a set to a Sonic player ever.

Still I think besides Salem Bayo has a pretty good record vs Sonic overall.

 

[MERPIS]

Can and will.

Sonic counterplay is evolving faster than ever while his own meta hasn't evolved at the same rate.

Doesn't help that the Bayo MU is becoming worse and worse with time and people in general getting better at handling his neutral and abusing his disadvantage harder.

Don't bring that garbage into here, you're wrong

 

[soniczx123]

The Bayo MU looking bad for Sonic is mostly due to Salem, who can truly, legitemately be called the "Sonic Killer" since I do not think he has lost a set to a Sonic player ever.

Still I think besides Salem Bayo has a pretty good record vs Sonic overall.

Salem showcases it the best, but overall the MU in general has developed to be in her favor due to her range, safe buttons and overwhelming punish games, making it hard for Sonic to play neutral and reset to neutral after advantage/disadvantage.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

https://youtu.be/4X73S9fEQDE
This is actually really interesting
I've noticed this a lot while playing zard, maybe he'll end up as a sleeper Diddy CP

That is interesting not to mention helps zard out but even knowing this as was stated earlier how does zard deal with diddy's other options? I've beaten diddys before but it's always been a headache and a half because of how easily diddy trumps zard when it comes to things like combos, ledge trapping, and kill confirms. Just because you have a way around one option doesn't mean you can win the MU. It just makes it a little easier.

 

[L9999]

Don't bring that garbage into here, you're wrong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx9ppaV6zWk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJgXmMDQ0Pc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdpKDgbw6R8

You can't deny the facts.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Don't bring that garbage into here, you're wrong

bruh

a explanation would be nice.

Salem showcases it the best, but overall the MU in general has developed to be in her favor due to her range, safe buttons and overwhelming punish games, making it hard for Sonic to play neutral and reset to neutral after advantage/disadvantage.

where would you place sonic on the tier list?

 

[soniczx123]

6th, after the big three, Sheik and Rosa.

Baby_Sneak

 

[Finh009]

Sumabato 21 is tonight!

Featuring:

2GG | Komorikiri
HIKARU
Choco
Taiheita
ikep
Oisiitofu
Sigma
Kuro
Kome
Shogun
Chanshu
Masashi
Ri-ma
OCEAN
Kie
Aki
Gomamugitya

Pools: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KFHjPhxV6I0gBVeas0B-dH3_kPmSm5ECmSv7mam_uDY/edit?usp=sharing
Bracket: http://challonge.com/sumabato21T
Stream: https://go.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

 

[TDK]

Not to be rude, but why are we still responding to trolls?

EDIT: I found the translated Sumabato pools: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...0B-dH3_kPmSm5ECmSv7mam_uDY/edit#gid=232099462

 

[Das Koopa]

B I G U P D A T E

GameTyrant Expo 2017 (September 29th-October 1st) (Southwest) (332 Entrants) (Category 4)
1st:

FOX MVG | MKLeo , ,
2nd:

BSD | Elegant
3rd:

TSM | ZeRo
4th:

MSF | Larry Lurr ,,
5th:

IMT | ANTi ,
5th:

bc | Mr. R
7th:

E2C | DarkShad
7th:

Samsora
9th:

LH | Charliedaking
9th:

RNG | Dabuz
9th:

NRG | Nairo ,,
9th:

MVG | Salem
13th:

Yatta | JK
13th:

eM | Zenyou
13th:

EG | Zinoto
13th:

Raito
17th:

P1 | Tweek
17th:

CLG | VoiD
17th:

PiXL
17th:

CLG | NAKAT ,
17th:

PG | MVD
17th:

Marss
17th:

PG | ESAM
17th:

2GG | komorikiri
25th:

C9 | Ally
25th:

LG | Abadango &
25th:

EMG | Mistake
25th:

YP | Fatality
25th:

CL | Legit
25th:

Calculus
25th:

Tyrant
25th:

P1 | Captain Zack

Spoiler: SenshiCon 2017 (September 30th) (Alaska) (94 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: SilentRain &
2nd: Orbit ,
3rd: TrueMain
4th: Ackeron
5th: Slow~Hand
5th: Jerd
7th: AsteKZZz
7th: 33Moe

Spoiler: Calyptus Cup Essen: Runback (September 30th) (Germany) (85 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Purple~H
2nd: S1
3rd: LoNg0uw ,,
4th: wusi
5th: SirJon
5th: Tsunayoshi
7th: Eddy ,
7th: Samuu

Spoiler: Middleground 2017 (September 30th) (Ontario) (78 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Blacktwins & ,
2nd: Fwed
3rd: Deathorse
4th: BB
5th: Mr. Farenheit
5th: BreaD
7th: THUNDER ,,
7th: Z ,,

Spoiler: Cosmic Combo (September 30th) (Tristate) (78 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Light
2nd: Dark Wizzy
3rd: Pugwest
4th: Craftis
5th: Scot!
5th: Glare
7th: LingLing
7th: PACageFruits

Spoiler: DBAP Challenge (September 30th) (Coastal Southeast) (97 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: RFang
2nd: Donquavious
3rd: Peabnut
4th: ARS3
5th: Mekos
5th: Black Yoshi
7th: Zebra
7th: Cowhunter

Spoiler: DAT Blastzone 22 (September 30th) (United Kingdom) (67 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Plastic Poptart
2nd: Peli
3rd: Kibzu~ ,,,
4th: Khanage

Spoiler: Meltdown Smash Challenge 5 (September 30th) (France) (55 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Elexiao
2nd: Griffith ,
3rd: Homika
4th: Myollnir ,

Spoiler: SKL SmashFest (September 30th) (West Canada) (72 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Sylarius
2nd: Scubbss
3rd: Wake
4th: pink

Spoiler: Marauder Mayhem (September 30th) (MD/VA) (31 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Seagull Joe &
2nd: Sandstorm
3rd: Pink Fresh
4th: SirHunk

Spoiler: Brotherly Love Season Finals (September 30th) (Tristate) (43 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Shoyo James
2nd: 6WX
3rd: Vivid &
4th: Sync

Spoiler: Final Destination (September 30th) (Midwest) (37 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: LOE1
2nd: Nom
3rd: SETHsational
4th: Runes

The Big House 7 (October 8th) (Midwest) (512 Entrants) (Category 4) (Category 5- for player ranking)
1st:

Dabuz
2nd:

Marss ,
3rd:

Cosmos
4th:

TSM | ZeRo
5th:

PG | MVD
5th:

MVG | Salem
7th:

MSF | Larry Lurr
7th:

C9 | Ally
9th:

bc | Mr. R
9th:

CLG | VoiD
9th:

NRG | Nairo
9th:

2GG | komorikiri ,
13th:

P1 | Captain Zack
13th:

Raito
13th:

EG | Zinoto
13th:

FSTEP | Mr. E ,
17th:

DMG | MattyG
17th:

P1 | Tweek
17th:

LG | Abadango &
17th:

dyr
17th:

E2C | tyroy
17th:

Gackt
17th:

Light
17th:

Javi &
25th:

Ned
25th:

CLG | NAKAT &
25th:

EMG | Mistake
25th:

Lagnel ,
25th:

Ronin | Xzax
25th:

PG | ESAM
25th:

Ryuga
25th:

EMG LGS | Blacktwins &

Spoiler: Little Big House 3 (October 5th) (Midwest) (143 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Mistake ,
2nd: Abadango ,,
3rd: Raffi-X
4th: Blacktwins ,
5th: DarkShad
5th: Tyroy ,
7th: Ned
7th: Salem ,

Spoiler: GUMS 18 (October 7th) (New England) (52 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Craftis
2nd: Axiom XL
3rd: Dreadfighter
4th: PWNAGEPOLICE

Spoiler: Afterglow Throwdown 2 (October 7th) (Inland/Gulf Southeast) (47 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Sonido
2nd: Dr.
3rd: Pipp &
4th: Kasei &

Spoiler: GDLevel Anniversary (October 7th) (Mexico) (39 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Bedgar
2nd: Lalo
3rd: Brian
4th: FuerzaDON

Spoiler: UCSB Black N’ Blue (October 7th) (Southern California) (48 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Slither2Hunter
2nd: ELDON
3rd: PsydB
4th: Ant

Spoiler: Tuscaloosa Knockout October (October 8th) (Inland/Gulf Southeast) (26 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: ChillyChilli
2nd: C2
3rd: Mopn
4th: Lilbigham

2GGC: Fire Emblem Saga (October 14th-15th) (Southern California) (351 Entrants) (Category 4)
1st:

MVG | Salem
2nd:

NRG | Nairo
3rd:

2GG | komorikiri ,,,,
4th:

P1 | Tweek , ,,
5th:

CLG | VoiD
5th:

Manny
7th:

Shuton ,
7th:

Samsora
9th:

Ac
9th:

FOX MVG | MKLeo ,
9th:

EMP | WaDi
9th:

Kirihara
13th:

StDx | Falln
13th:

EMG | Mistake
13th:

FSTEP | Mr. E ,
13th:

FSTEP | Tyrant
17th:

Ryuga
17th:

KEN
17th:

CLG | NAKAT &
17th:

P1 | Captain Zack
17th:

Eon
17th:

Razo
17th:

Mystearica
17th:

Cosmos
25th:

Vinnie ,
25th:

Ryo
25th:

eM | Zenyou
25th:

Locus
25th:

MSF | Larry Lurr
25th:

YOC ,
25th:

LG | Abadango &
25th:

BSD | Elegant

Spoiler: CATi #4 (October 15th) (Texas) (92 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Lima
2nd: Megafox
3rd: Shadow_PR
4th: Espy
5th: Karna
5th: Jumbolias
7th: SaSSy
7th: Whispy

Spoiler: AGON-Serie – Neuss 1 (October 14th) (Germany) (78 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: cyve ,
2nd: LoNg0uw ,,
3rd: quiK
4th: Tomenimo
5th: BluB
5th: Light
7th: Like
7th: SirJon

Spoiler: Gwinnett Brawl October (October 15th) (Coastal Southeast) (76 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Wrath ,
2nd: SaltOne
3rd: Fatality
4th: Sonido
5th: Danye
5th: Rango ,
7th: CC
7th: Nova

Spoiler: Mega Smash Mondays 118 (October 16th) (Southern California) (97 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: WaDi
2nd: komorikiri , ,
3rd: KEN
4th: Shuton
5th: Manny
5th: Abadango
7th: Javi &
7th: Elegant

Spoiler: Chronicles of Olympus (October 15th) (Midwest) (53 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Rayquaza07
2nd: SETHsational
3rd: Boobear
4th: Ryoku

Spoiler: Defence of the ACT (October 14th) (Australia) (62 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Extra
2nd: Waveguider ,
3rd: Tru4 ,
4th: Sriks ,

Spoiler: Jupiter League XXI (October 15th) (Italy) (46 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: D-danzee
2nd: Meerko
3rd: TylerDX ,,
4th: Sim-Max

Spoiler: Salty Arena Cup U 4 (October 14th) (France) (53 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Glutonny , ,
2nd: Ogey
3rd: TheFlow
4th: Meru ,

Spoiler: Retro Rumble @ Retroworld (October 15th) (New England) (43 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Light
2nd: LingLing
3rd: Pelca , ,,
4th: Glare &

Spoiler: That Rustbelt Classic (October 14th) (Tristate) (37 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Blacktwins &
2nd: SDX
3rd: THUNDER
4th: iModerz

Spoiler: Smash Land (October 14th) (Brazil) (62 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Revoredo
2nd: Luffy
3rd: FullMoon
4th: Holy

Spoiler: Salty Juans 4 (October 15th) (Southwest) (68 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: BANG!
2nd: Fahrenheit
3rd: Upchuckle ,
4th: Diago

Spoiler: Battles in Glasgow (October 14th) (United Kingdom) (34 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Ander
2nd: slump
3rd: Riaz
4th: D.ku

Spoiler: Super Smashnest v19 (October 14th) (Pacific Northwest) (63 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Big D ,
2nd: Captain L
3rd: Zak
4th: SilentRain , ,,

Spoiler: Hoosier Smash Gaiden (October 14th) (Midwest) (45 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Thor
2nd: Braxton8
3rd: Geo
4th: Shadic

Spoiler: Friki Feria Puebla (October 15th) (Mexico) (46 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Pablo
2nd: Don Papi , ,
3rd: FeerLA
4th: Vyral ,

Spoiler: Battleground: Chicagoland 2 (October 14th) (Midwest) (34 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Ned
2nd: tyroy
3rd: Dan
4th: big_mak

Spoiler: October 2017 Smash Jam (October 14th) (Southwest) (36 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: BestNess
2nd: VaLoR
3rd: Lada
4th: Calculus

Spoiler: NUC24 (October 14th) (Western Canada) (56 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Strike
2nd: Jackson
3rd: Ragna ,
4th: DJCoolKids , ,

Spoiler: Character Scores - Updated

Bayonetta: 252
Cloud: 224.75
Diddy Kong: 190.75
Fox: 160
Sheik: 154
Sonic: 153
Mario: 145.75
Zero Suit Samus: 87.5
Rosalina & Luma: 86
Mewtwo: 77.5
Captain Falcon: 67
Ryu: 62.5
Meta Knight: 52.25
Ness: 50.5
Greninja: 49.25
Luigi: 48
Corrin: 46
Peach: 39
Toon Link: 38
Pikachu: 35.5
Marth: 27.25
R.O.B.: 25.25
Lucina: 24.5
Olimar: 24
Villager: 24
Donkey Kong: 21.75
Roy: 21.5
Mega Man: 19
Samus: 16.5
Yoshi: 16
Shulk: 15.5
Link: 15.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 15
Lucas: 15
Ike: 15
Bowser: 14.5
Lucario: 13
Wario: 10
Duck Hunt: 10
Little Mac: 7
Ganondorf: 6
Falco: 5
Robin: 5
King Dedede: 5
Wii Fit Trainer: 4.5
Palutena: 3
Zelda: 2.5
Pit: 2
Bowser Jr.: 2
Charizard: 2
Pac-Man: 1
Kirby: 0.5
Jigglypuff: 0.25

 

[TDK]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Lord Dio]

The big thing I got from the BSD video ws how Falcon can do both the tricks. Might be useful and worth noting for future Fatality vs Diddy sets.

 

[verbatim]

I would actually argue that Sheik has no real defensive weaknesses. The most you could say is that she's kind of light, kind of average-sized, and falls kind of fast.

She doesn't have a good combo breaking move. Imagine if Sheik (or Sonic) had Villager/Luigi's nair.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

biykds

What does this mean?

 

[FeelMeUp]

She doesn't have a good combo breaking move. Imagine if Sheik (or Sonic) had Villager/Luigi's nair.

Well, her nair is the same as theirs startup wise. It's her fallspeed/gravity combination that makes her unable to use it nearly immediately after getting hit.

 

[Finh009]

Sumabato 21 (Kansai, Japan) (177 Entrants)

1st. Mangalitza
2nd. Kome
3rd. Selcia
4th. Masashi
5th. Lagnel
5th. Mao
7th. Choco
7th. Parme

Spoiler: Rest of Top 16

9th. 2GG | Komorikiri
9th. Kuro
9th. Shachi
9th. Shogun
13th. Ako
13th. HIKARU
13th. Ri-ma
13th. Sigma

I see the Japanese Clouds decided to take a break from Online and raid this tourney. But it's nice to see put in some work.

 

[The-Technique]

Odd to see Shulk place over the likes of Choco and....3 different Cloud mains?

But this IS Kome we're talking about, good to see him putting in work

 

[Yonder]

Sumabato 21 (Kansai, Japan) (177 Entrants)

1st. Mangalitza
2nd. Kome
3rd. Selcia
4th. Masashi
5th. Lagnel
5th. Mao
7th. Choco
7th. Parme

Spoiler: Rest of Top 16

9th. 2GG | Komorikiri
9th. Kuro
9th. Shachi
9th. Shogun
13th. Ako
13th. HIKARU
13th. Ri-ma
13th. Sigma

I see the Japanese Clouds decided to take a break from Online and raid this tourney. But it's nice to see put in some work.

Nice to see Komo going all Roy. He probably could have taken the event convincingly with Cloud, but uses the opportunity to train one of his secondaries instead.

 

[Das Koopa]

Sumabato 21 (Kansai, Japan) (177 Entrants)

1st. Mangalitza
2nd. Kome
3rd. Selcia
4th. Masashi
5th. Lagnel
5th. Mao
7th. Choco
7th. Parme

Spoiler: Rest of Top 16

9th. 2GG | Komorikiri
9th. Kuro
9th. Shachi
9th. Shogun
13th. Ako
13th. HIKARU
13th. Ri-ma
13th. Sigma

I see the Japanese Clouds decided to take a break from Online and raid this tourney. But it's nice to see put in some work.

okay I take it back Cloud > Diddy

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Odd to see Shulk place over the likes of Choco and....3 different Cloud mains?

But this IS Kome we're talking about, good to see him putting in work

Not surprised he placed above the clouds, Kome's record against them is stupid good. I think the only cloud he doesnt have a winning record against is mattun, and even that is an even record. He played the cloud matchup pretty differently from most shulk players, as he was more focused on winning thr onstage game than gimping at early percents. Definitely gonna study these vods though, and its great seeing Kome back in form.

 

[Lord Dio]

Looks like a good sumabato, people really showed up. Lotta Clouds and ZSS's two Fox's and Tink's, and DK, Samus, and Shulk doing well.
Super happy Komo's training his roy up, could probably take the title of best secondary roy if he puts in a lil more time and practice
But also a lil upset because he could have taken the whole thing with Cloud and instead settled for 9th.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

okay I take it back Cloud > Diddy

okay I take it back Cloud > Diddy

So it is >> as far as the very top of the top tier characters? . Or maybe replace Sheik with Rosa?

 

[blackghost]

So it is >> as far as the very top of the top tier characters? . Or maybe replace Sheik with Rosa?

When bayo results look like clouds I'll give you that order until then cloud has become the top character. He's become the best in both singles and doubles at this point. I know was koopas results have bayo at the top but in large tournaments with high level players her placement is unpredictable not even cpsistent top 8.while cloud and diddy are always present in top 8.
(keep in mind I am not counting tweek bayo as it's barely better than aba)

 

[Illusion.]

Huh? Bayonetta’s results are better than Cloud’s. I don’t know what results you’re looking at where Bayonetta “isn’t consistent” and Cloud is outperforming her. We just had her win 3 S tiers, had 9 in top 64 of EVO, 4 in top 8 of LTC 5... and the list goes on.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Huh? Bayonetta’s results are better than Cloud’s. I don’t know what results you’re looking at where Bayonetta “isn’t consistent” and Cloud is outperforming her. We just had her win 3 S tiers, had 9 in top 64 of EVO, 4 in top 8 of LTC 5... and the list goes on.

The only big event where there has not been at least one Bayo in the top 8 in recent memory was GTX . Bayo has been as consistent as Diddy and Cloud and deserves to be considered as high up on the list as them. I seriously cannot see how you can aruge otherwise .

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Huh? Bayonetta’s results are better than Cloud’s. I don’t know what results you’re looking at where Bayonetta “isn’t consistent” and Cloud is outperforming her. We just had her win 3 S tiers, had 9 in top 64 of EVO, 4 in top 8 of LTC 5... and the list goes on.

Also there were no Clouds in BH7's Top 8, and players like Tweek, Ned, and Komo showed up.

 

[The-Technique]

wait when did we suddenly start praising cloud as the best singles character? i feel like people forget that the 3 best cloud mains have a minimum of 3 secondaries each, which seriously makes me doubt his viability as a solo main, as opposed to the bayonettas, diddys, sheiks, and to a lesser extent rosalinas that currently dominate

also i guess talks of banning bayonetta are over? thank goodness for that