Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Envoy of Chaos]

Off topic, but there has been a lot of recent discussion recently (mainly Salem and top sheik mains) that sheik loses multiple mu's and is not a top tier. https://mobile.twitter.com/BlankSmash/status/920476098391134208?p=v

I am quite curious as to what people here might think, and what Salems reasoning is behind it.

People buying into hype, she may not be top 3 and possibly not top 5 but she still wins neutral for free against 90% of the cast and can harass most of the characters below her hard. She's just very unforgiving (Mess up a few times in neutral and does early for it, mess up on her kill confirms and now she's struggling to kill) but when played optimally she's down right dominate.

 

[TDK]

When a game has almost 60 characters and most of them are viable, we need to expand "top tier" past the actual top two-four characters like in past games. I'd say top tier has 10-12 characters in it currently, and Sheik is definitely one of them.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Maybe if a top player makes video on how Sheik is overrated like when Fatality did with Bayo. Maybe Sheik will win a major , similar to once again how Salem won EVO and then Dreamhack Alanta soon after Fatality's anti-bayo vid


Similarly I think Nairo won Super Smash Con too after ESAM dis a stream on how he thinks ZSS is overrated and detailed ways to beat her

 

[|RK|]

I don't understand what Sheik has done to show that she's worth being mentioned in the same breath as Diddy, Bayo, Cloud, and Rosa.

I feel like every time you suggest she loses an MU, it's "this person is just playing it wrong." And that's not exactly a bad excuse for a few MUs... But how long are you allowed to completely ignore results when making your theory?

Even Sheik's theory has faltered, actually. I want to know what is it that makes her not lose any matchups at all?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I don't understand what Sheik has done to show that she's worth being mentioned in the same breath as Diddy, Bayo, Cloud, and Rosa.

I feel like every time you suggest she loses an MU, it's "this person is just playing it wrong." And that's not exactly a bad excuse for a few MUs... But how long are you allowed to completely ignore results when making your theory?

Even Sheik's theory has faltered, actually. I want to know what is it that makes her not lose any matchups at all?

Yea I think I would replace Rosa with Sheik as the 4 "Top of top tier characters" and Sheik as maybe just below that around #5-6"
Rosa does have the results and theory to possibly hang with Diddy/Bayo/Cloud

I think it also has to be said that Sheiks lack of jank that can take stocks early or "clutch factor" can be considered a notable weakness for her in the current meta. I mean you can say the same about Diddy I guess. But Diddy kill confirms and setups are easier and more consistient than Sheiks

 

[Josegames X]

I tnink that is time for a new tier list

 

[FeelMeUp]

Salem claims he can react to frame 5 moves, SDI needles, beat every Sheik free, and says 50/50s only work 25% of the time. Not to mention the weird ass belief that Peach is top 10 while Sheik is 20-25.
I don't think he's a good example to use for opinion support.
I'd be surprise if he doesn't admit to trolling people that believe top player opinions mindlessly.

 

[|RK|]

Yea I think I would replace Rosa with Sheik as the 4 "Top of top tier characters" and Sheik as maybe just below that around #5-6"
Rosa does have the results and theory to possibly hang with Diddy/Bayo/Cloud

I think it also has to be said that Sheiks lack of jank that can take stocks early or "clutch factor" can be considered a notable weakness for her in the current meta. I mean you can say the same about Diddy I guess. But Diddy kill confirms and setups are easier and more consistient than Sheiks

Yeah, I can see Sheik in the next group, with Fox & Sonic.

And Diddy at least has dair for "clutch factor."

 

[Lord Dio]

Incredibly tired, but gonna throw some things out.

I might be underestimating , what are his confirms/combos?

Doesn't have better top tier MUs than , largely due to checkmate? TBH I don't know a lot about either character

A. LOT. of combos.
Remember when we were talking bout best advantage state and I said roy was a contender? It's for good reason. If you don't know your DI for certain moves you can get taken for one painful ride. Local Roy player (even on friendlies with Darkshad and MM'ed Zack at TBH7 and lsot 3-0 but made each game close and too kfirst stock all 3 games) has taken me for a ride numerous times (is also currently o working on perfecting a 0-death with roy). Roy gets underestimated a lot because these combos aren't een. The usual setups you see a roy in bracket using is fsmash setup.

About Fox:
Larry has said he really can't play campy (hence he struggles with mus like ryu)
Also, ZeRo is probably a bad option for choosing who to watch Larry fight, seeing as how Larry hasn't beaten him since Aba Saga and has said numerous times over the past two months how he kinda breaks down fighting ZeRo.
Again really tired and might have some work to do, so not gonna take a look at NAKAT's playstyle or anyone else's tonight, but Larry's is definitely the hardest playstyle to emulate (if you wanna call it that).
For the optimal playstyle-it's like how we've said the best bayo would have Salem's neutra and defense, Zack's offense, and Mistake's conversions. The best way to play Fox woudl eb to use his tools to their max. Play a litttle camp and defensive, but also offensive, and have good recovery mixups.

General:
Not all players "go in guns blazing" (especially the Duck Hunt ones X. Not all characters are designed to be naturally offensive (Rosa, Game and Watch, ROB, Pac-Man, DHD, D3, and others come to mind). Granted they can be offensive, but a good deal of play required to do well with them is play defensively.

Obligatory swordies tier list (because y not):
>>>>>>>>>>>swordfightter mii
I think highly of roy (as said above, for good reason), so I think he has a small chance of overtaking Ike. Small chance. Definitely better than Robin and the Pits. Poor shulk, he's not really feeling it.

 

[my_T]

I don't understand what Sheik has done to show that she's worth being mentioned in the same breath as Diddy, Bayo, Cloud, and Rosa.

I feel like every time you suggest she loses an MU, it's "this person is just playing it wrong." And that's not exactly a bad excuse for a few MUs... But how long are you allowed to completely ignore results when making your theory?

Even Sheik's theory has faltered, actually. I want to know what is it that makes her not lose any matchups at all?

What MU's does Sheik been losing consistently? I can't think of any except for Diddy

 

[Kofu]

What MU's does Sheik been losing consistently? I can't think of any except for Diddy

Not sure of the actual record but she's been liable to lose to ZSS rage Boost Kick recently.

 

[|RK|]

What MU's does Sheik been losing consistently? I can't think of any except for Diddy

Rosalina & ZSS, for starters. Diddy obviously, Mario for a good while, and more.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Rosalina & ZSS, for starters. Diddy obviously, Mario for a good while, and more.

The Sheik/ZSS MU is interesting to me since it seems to be looking much better for ZSS as of late when people were saying it was like -2 for ZSS a while back

Yea Sheik has the superior neutral and will he winning it more often than ZSS racking up high damage.

The thing is, Sheik is not likely to kill most of the cast never mind ZSS until she mid-high rage percents, and we know how much ZSS can get off of rage. Sheik also is pretty suspectable to ZSS ladder combos to her size parameters (Tall, light, fast-faller)

So exchanges can go where Sheik can beat down ZSS at the start of the match and game a huge percent lead. But ZSS can get one grab or conversion and then instantly erase Sheiks stock at very low percents.


I would not say ZSS wins the MU I think it's more "volatile even" if that makes sense

 

[my_T]

Sheik hasn't been consistently losing to Mario. They tend to go back and forth

 

[RonNewcomb]

Most of TL's matchups are other sword characters, actually. Specifically Cloud, and also Corrin as well, I think.

I'd argue TL would be worse because his range is so bad compared to the others.

Yeah, TL would be bottom tier, since everyone can swat his projectiles away.

But I'm less sure Cloud would still top the list.

 

[ARGHETH]

Yeah, TL would be bottom tier, since everyone can swat his projectiles away.

But I'm less sure Cloud would still top the list.

Really? Corrin has a bad Cloud MU, and Marth is even/losing, while Marth loses to MK and goes evenish with Cloud. Even now, Cloud's losing MUs are to non-sword characters.

 

[Minordeth]

I don't understand what Sheik has done to show that she's worth being mentioned in the same breath as Diddy, Bayo, Cloud, and Rosa.

Has consistently excellent results that are in the in or near the range as the aforementioned characters? No, she has not won a major, but that’s a bad criteria for how good a given character is.

I feel like every time you suggest she loses an MU, it's "this person is just playing it wrong." And that's not exactly a bad excuse for a few MUs... But how long are you allowed to completely ignore results when making your theory?

When your top reps struggle, as players, in certain MUs or versus other players, and it’s obvious, then that reason is valid. Mr. R is bad at the DK MU as a player. Cacogen, the top PNW Sheik, is not. I can’t infer that Sheik struggles in the MU when there is ample evidence to the contrary at the top level.

Void consistently messes up his DI on ZSS ladders. He also consistently runs into Nairo, who is really good at the Sheik MU. Mr. R fairs much better.

Even Sheik's theory has faltered, actually. I want to know what is it that makes her not lose any matchups at all?

There is nothing about Sheik’s tools that have gotten worse. Players opinions have, tho. She can play more safely than any other character, and has more viable options in a given situation than any other character. She also, despite repeated anti-hype, has multiple ways to end your stock.

Howwwweeevvverr, she is relatively really hard to play at nearly all levels. She is not as accessible as most of the other top tiers, minus Rosa (who is also unsurprisingly not as popular as other top tiers). Her kill setups are numerous but esoteric, and most players like to force something they want rather than utilize what they have.

Usage dictates results, and upcoming transitioning players (like from low to mid or mid to high) are seemingly not as common. Optimal Sheik is somewhat anti-current meta, and that’s a tough style to forge ahead in.

 

[HoSmash4]

When sheik's start ledge planking out of zss grab kill percents they will start to body zss.

 

[Routa]

I have been wondering what people see in Robin when they think he is better than Pit(s). I'm curious about the reasoning behind it. I will post my thoughts about the characters later when I have more time.

 

[Tizio Random]

I have been wondering what people see in Robin when they think he is better than Pit(s). I'm curious about the reasoning behind it. I will post my thoughts about the characters later when I have more time.

Robin has amazing aerials with Levin sword, first of all, the Pits can only dream to have something as strong as Robin's fair and upair. Also elthunder and arcthunder are amazing projectiles that he not only can use effectively to zone but set also up his whole gameplan.
And a reliable kill confirm in checkmate is so important it cannot be overlooked. To conclude, Robin has also a niche counterpick role to heavy as he beats them with no problem.
I still think the character is mid tier at best and high low tier at worst because his mobility, weakness to juggling and endlag in some crucial moves are too much, though.

Sorry if I'm being very concise but I don't have much time right now.

 

[|RK|]

Has consistently excellent results that are in the in or near the range as the aforementioned characters? No, she has not won a major, but that’s a bad criteria for how good a given character is.



When your top reps struggle, as players, in certain MUs or versus other players, and it’s obvious, then that reason is valid. Mr. R is bad at the DK MU as a player. Cacogen, the top PNW Sheik, is not. I can’t infer that Sheik struggles in the MU when there is ample evidence to the contrary at the top level.

Void consistently messes up his DI on ZSS ladders. He also consistently runs into Nairo, who is really good at the Sheik MU. Mr. R fairs much better.



There is nothing about Sheik’s tools that have gotten worse. Players opinions have, tho. She can play more safely than any other character, and has more viable options in a given situation than any other character. She also, despite repeated anti-hype, has multiple ways to end your stock.

Howwwweeevvverr, she is relatively really hard to play at nearly all levels. She is not as accessible as most of the other top tiers, minus Rosa (who is also unsurprisingly not as popular as other top tiers). Her kill setups are numerous but esoteric, and most players like to force something they want rather than utilize what they have.

Usage dictates results, and upcoming transitioning players (like from low to mid or mid to high) are seemingly not as common. Optimal Sheik is somewhat anti-current meta, and that’s a tough style to forge ahead in.

In that case, Rosa and Diddy also don't lose any MUs.

ZeRo beat all of Daddy's perceived bad MUs recently, including 3-0 ing Kirihara. Other Diddy players simply mess up in that MU.

On the same page, Rosa's aren't good at edgeguarding Cloud yet. And Rosa's have beaten MKs in their path recently. Both even.

---

See, the issue is that this doesn't really hold up. What tool of Sheiks are players not using anymore? Needles are still good, but not nearly as much after the nerfs. And they don't stop opponents on platforms, so Sheik has to approach when, say, Lucario has Aura. Or to stop a Mewtwo from charging Shadow Ball. Because those will be a threat if she shoots needles at the wrong time.

And even ignoring her neutral (which is still really good, IMO), then you have to figure out how she'll convert that into a stock when she actually needs it.

Honestly, I think Pikachu is legitimately better at this, from comparing the two. I could very much be biased since Kirby can be annoying for Sheik to kill. But I tend to see many options that just don't cut it in many places. Like, great, you have multiple 50/50s based on DI and percentage - that's not reliable at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like most Sheik players would probably give up most if not all of those fancy setups for Bayo bair alone. These setups are what Sheik is left with - not anything to be praised.

Matter of fact, the poster boy for Sheik's kills - VoiD - has said for some time that Sheik being unable to kill is not a meme. But then despite using him as an example when they want to show how early Sheik can kill, I expect Sheik players to say that VoiD isn't using the proper setups.

And the thing is - I'm not saying Sheik is bad, or that she has HORRIBLE MUs. She can win any MU IMO - and that's what muddies the water a lot. Because you can say a lot of stuff about different performances in different MUs... But you can say the same about Fox - a character who is believed to lose to Sheik, yet certainly beats her regularly enough for someone to say it could be even.

A lot of what I see about Sheik is basically the same stuff we laughed at when it comes to Pikachu. It's 99.9% theory. Sheik's neutral is certainly great, and she gets kills way easier than characters of the same archetype (mostly DH), but it really doesn't amount to enough to put her with Diddy/Cloud/Bayo/Rosa. Three of whom have comparable neutral tools, and way better and more consistent ways to seal a stock from that neutral.

It would be nice to see this version of Sheik that only exists in theory so far. But until then, it's going to be really hard to accept she's as amazing as people say.

EDIT: I'm so sorry, this is so long lol

EDIT 2: Anyone notice perfect Sheik is only compared to imperfect versions of other characters?

 

[BSP]

Sheik hasn't been consistently losing to Mario. They tend to go back and forth

Doesn't ANTi have a really positive record vs the top sheiks?

 

[Minordeth]

In that case, Rosa and Diddy also don't lose any MUs.

ZeRo beat all of Daddy's perceived bad MUs recently, including 3-0 ing Kirihara. Other Diddy players simply mess up in that MU.

On the same page, Rosa's aren't good at edgeguarding Cloud yet. And Rosa's have beaten MKs in their path recently. Both even.

So, a key point in evaluating any MU is actually looking at what tools a character has and evaluating when a player loses an exchange, or a game, is it due to a character attribute, or due to a player not knowing or choosing the correct option? If you infer an MU based off of recent set of a player, you are falling into the same recency bias as everyone else.

If I look at a given set, am I seeing superior play, or mistakes being made, or both? If it's mistakes, is that really due to the MU?

Basically, I don't really care who is beating who as much as why they are beating them.

That actually requires analyzing the sets and takes more effort than simply saying, "Oh, Mr. R keeps losing to DK. Sheik must have a problem in the MU." Maybe it's true, but if you look across the sets, and see that Mr. R commits the same kinds of errors, errors that are intrinsic to style rather than character, it's a bit premature to declare DK/Sheik even, especially when other players demonstrate that the theory.

See, the issue is that this doesn't really hold up. What tool of Sheiks are players not using anymore? Needles are still good, but not nearly as much after the nerfs. And they don't stop opponents on platforms, so Sheik has to approach when, say, Lucario has Aura. Or to stop a Mewtwo from charging Shadow Ball. Because those will be a threat if she shoots needles at the wrong time.

And even ignoring her neutral (which is still really good, IMO), then you have to figure out how she'll convert that into a stock when she actually needs it.

Come on now. It's not a matter of what they are using versus how they are using them. It's like MK Leo's perfect pivots with Marth. They look fancy, they suggest something, but when he perfect pivots away into nothing, and then rolls when approached, what's the point ultimately?

Sheik has more safety than essentially every other character. She can literally not commit while pressuring in a wide variety of ways.

There is a problem with this meta, and when I see Void rush in or try ill advised trades when he has a stock lead, it's indicative of this meta and it's inability to play smartly when the tools are available to do otherwise.

Honestly, I think Pikachu is legitimately better at this, from comparing the two. I could very much be biased since Kirby can be annoying for Sheik to kill. But I tend to see many options that just don't cut it in many places. Like, great, you have multiple 50/50s based on DI and percentage - that's not reliable at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like most Sheik players would probably give up most if not all of those fancy setups for Bayo bair alone. These setups are what Sheik is left with - not anything to be praised.

As slow as this meta is, and it is slow, fishing for kills with a single move is worse than being able to possibly convert off of more options. Rather, it will be worse.

Matter of fact, the poster boy for Sheik's kills - VoiD - has said for some time that Sheik being unable to kill is not a meme. But then despite using him as an example when they want to show how early Sheik can kill, I expect Sheik players to say that VoiD isn't using the proper setups.

VoiD has other issues than set-ups, and it largely has to do with decision making in disadvantage and neutral. I try not to base my opinions on what top players say in any given instance, because ESAM and Salem and Zero and kneejerk reactions are things.

And the thing is - I'm not saying Sheik is bad, or that she has HORRIBLE MUs. She can win any MU IMO - and that's what muddies the water a lot. Because you can say a lot of stuff about different performances in different MUs... But you can say the same about Fox - a character who is believed to lose to Sheik, yet certainly beats her regularly enough for someone to say it could be even.

You can say the same thing about any character, but there are some things that absolutely hold characters back. Diddy has exploitable air speed. Bayo can't land safely and has a poor approach. Cloud without limit is sus when recovering. Fox has no get out of jail free. Rosa is tied to Luma, who is dependent on other players not knowing what causes tumble.

A lot of what I see about Sheik is basically the same stuff we laughed at when it comes to Pikachu. It's 99.9% theory. Sheik's neutral is certainly great, and she gets kills way easier than characters of the same archetype (mostly DH), but it really doesn't amount to enough to put her with Diddy/Cloud/Bayo/Rosa. Three of whom have comparable neutral tools, and way better and more consistent ways to seal a stock from that neutral.

Sure. Except when they are playing against Sheik. What can any of them really exploit hard about Sheik, other than the fact she doesn't have a kill confirm? Sheik can absolutely get a lead easier than any other character. What's to stop a committed Hbox-esque player from playing "lame?"

It would be nice to see this version of Sheik that only exists in theory so far. But until then, it's going to be really hard to accept she's as amazing as people say.

EDIT: I'm so sorry, this is so long lol

EDIT 2: Anyone notice perfect Sheik is only compared to imperfect versions of other characters?

I mean, all of this is fine. You don't have to buy the farm I'm selling, here. I'm not a Sheik main. But when even I can pick out what the top Sheiks are doing wrong in any given game, and not properly exploiting their opponents given Sheik's frame data and tools, I'm not sold on her actually losing much of anything.

Now, that doesn't mean she is absolutely the best character. Maybe Cloud loses nothing and beats other top tiers harder. Maybe Diddy does. But this recent train of "Sheik is overrated" seems to be analysis free.

Actually, in regards to your EDIT 2:

Perfect Diddy still has crappy air speed. Perfect ZSS is still dependent on grabs and jumps in neutral. Perfect Bayo still can't approach well.



Perfect Cloud is perfect.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Bayo can't land safely and has a poor approach

Oh Bayo not having the greatest approach I can see. But not being able to land safely?. The only time Bayo cant land totally safe is when she biykds up landing lag after long combo strings. But even then there are ways to work around it. Like negating the landing lag by grabbing a ledge or clever use of stage platforms

 

[Minordeth]

Oh Bayo not having the greatest approach I can see. But not being able to land safely?. The only time Bayo cant land totally safe is when she biykds up landing lag after long combo strings. But even there are ways to mitiage if you then grab the ledge or on a stage with platforms

I mean, she has two or three options: go to the ledge, try for a platform if she can, or land with lag. Nair has no hitbox underneath it, and Dair has a hitbox in front of it and has lag as well.

When I mean she can’t land, I’m being hyperbolic, but I truly mean she has trouble landing. Which she does against most of the top tiers. She is susceptible to anti-airs to as much of a degree as ZSS, and probably moreso.

I mean, you wanna see a man spam a move? Watch Dabuz play a Bayo and see that Usmash flyyyy.

 

[|RK|]

So, a key point in evaluating any MU is actually looking at what tools a character has and evaluating when a player loses an exchange, or a game, is it due to a character attribute, or due to a player not knowing or choosing the correct option? If you infer an MU based off of recent set of a player, you are falling into the same recency bias as everyone else.

If I look at a given set, am I seeing superior play, or mistakes being made, or both? If it's mistakes, is that really due to the MU?

Basically, I don't really care who is beating who as much as why they are beating them.

That actually requires analyzing the sets and takes more effort than simply saying, "Oh, Mr. R keeps losing to DK. Sheik must have a problem in the MU." Maybe it's true, but if you look across the sets, and see that Mr. R commits the same kinds of errors, errors that are intrinsic to style rather than character, it's a bit premature to declare DK/Sheik even, especially when other players demonstrate that the theory.

Believe me, I understand that. Playing an obscure character very much opens your eyes to that, as many top players will actually have no idea what it is you did wrong to lose.

But the thing is this - sometimes you end up with attribution error. Sometimes you lack a perfect option as a character, and people attribute that to the player. Sometimes you have a right option, and people attribute the error to the character. Every "mistake" could be a result of a smart opponent conditioning you into it.

So when I watch DK vs Sheik, or Lucario vs Sheik even - I see a lack of perfect options. Sometimes your opponent lets you think they've been conditioned into shield, and they grab you when you try to grab them. Sometimes, they step in on your fadeaway and swing their intangible limbs at your fair. So on.

Yeah, there are some obvious things you can avoid - like picking FD, or overextending in a kill. But while Sheik is unquestionably amazing at neutral, I don't see any *perfect* options. And her opponents often need less neutral wins than she does in the first place.

You add those two factors, and perfect Sheik can - and probably will - still lose to perfect DK.

Come on now. It's not a matter of what they are using versus how they are using them. It's like MK Leo's perfect pivots with Marth. They look fancy, they suggest something, but when he perfect pivots away into nothing, and then rolls when approached, what's the point ultimately?

Sheik has more safety than essentially every other character. She can literally not commit while pressuring in a wide variety of ways.

There is a problem with this meta, and when I see Void rush in or try ill advised trades when he has a stock lead, it's indicative of this meta and it's inability to play smartly when the tools are available to do otherwise.

In that case, please elaborate. What can Sheik do that simply cannot be punished by an opponent that abuses rage? Keeping in mind that these options need to be consistently unpunishable, as she'll need to do them frequently enough to close a stock.

As slow as this meta is, and it is slow, fishing for kills with a single move is worse than being able to possibly convert off of more options. Rather, it will be worse.

Sheik has a number of ways to put people in bad positions in the first place. The biggest issue is securing the kill safely. People aren't nearly as afraid of Sheik's kill options as they were when pretty much all she went for was the dthrow 50/50, so I'll have to disagree.

Never mind the fact that one powerful and safe option can make the opponent more predictable in the first place. Versus many that are demonstrably not as effective.

VoiD has other issues than set-ups, and it largely has to do with decision making in disadvantage and neutral. I try not to base my opinions on what top players say in any given instance, because ESAM and Salem and Zero and kneejerk reactions are things.

That's absolutely fair. But you'd think that if her kill setups were as effective as said, he would be the one abusing them the most. But in either case - I don't really expect Sheik's kill potential to increase much. When we're praising the fact that they're finally using fsmash - a notoriously unreliable kill move - to secure kills, I feel like we're very much praising what's left... Not genuinely good options.

You can say the same thing about any character, but there are some things that absolutely hold characters back. Diddy has exploitable air speed. Bayo can't land safely and has a poor approach. Cloud without limit is sus when recovering. Fox has no get out of jail free. Rosa is tied to Luma, who is dependent on other players not knowing what causes tumble.

Right. And Sheik's options in neutral are not broken enough to make up for her lack of kill power. That's a legitimate weakness in this game, imo.

Sure. Except when they are playing against Sheik. What can any of them really exploit hard about Sheik, other than the fact she doesn't have a kill confirm? Sheik can absolutely get a lead easier than any other character. What's to stop a committed Hbox-esque player from playing "lame?"

Exactly the fact that she doesn't have a kill confirm. Like I said above - her neutral isn't broken enough that it's okay she can't kill.

Also, you can ask the same question for a number of other characters. What does Sheik do if, say, Mewtwo decides to run away and charge Shadow Ball? Which is another issue - her ability to gain a lead & her ability to keep one are entirely different. Yeah, she can take a small lead... then the game is tied because her opponent threw a charged Shadow Ball. Or grabbed her. Or anti-aired her twice.

Oh, and she's light. Depending on your character, there are certainly things you can take advantage of. Kill confirm windows, being unable to force an approach... And that's important too, instead of just looking at universal character weaknesses, like speed.

I mean, all of this is fine. You don't have to buy the farm I'm selling, here. I'm not a Sheik main. But when even I can pick out what the top Sheiks are doing wrong in any given game, and not properly exploiting their opponents given Sheik's frame data and tools, I'm not sold on her actually losing much of anything.

Now, that doesn't mean she is absolutely the best character. Maybe Cloud loses nothing and beats other top tiers harder. Maybe Diddy does. But this recent train of "Sheik is overrated" seems to be analysis free.

Actually, in regards to your EDIT 2:

Perfect Diddy still has crappy air speed. Perfect ZSS is still dependent on grabs and jumps in neutral. Perfect Bayo still can't approach well.

Perfect Cloud is perfect.

That's fine. I respect your opinion, and we can agree to disagree here. Thing is, people will always make a number of errors in MUs, regardless of the level of play. Yet we can still use those as examples of an MU.

Unless the top Sheiks are playing pretty much every MU they lose entirely wrong, from start to finish, I feel like those matches are still useful indicators of character issues.

 

[Locke 06]

Vs perfect sheik, you reset neutral by losing your stock. You're sleeping on this character's busted advantage state if you're just focusing on how she can't kill from neutral.

 

[|RK|]

Vs perfect sheik, you reset neutral by losing your stock. You're sleeping on this character's busted advantage state if you're just focusing on how she can't kill from neutral.

See, that's my issue with the perfection argument. Should we not be considering perfection on the part of the opponent as well?

Different characters have different options to reset without losing their stocks. But you're going to have to clarify your definition of advantage. Ground to air? Ledge? Horizontal positioning?

 

[Locke 06]

See, that's my issue with the perfection argument. Should we not be considering perfection on the part of the opponent as well?

Different characters have different options to reset without losing their stocks. But you're going to have to clarify your definition of advantage. Ground to air? Ledge? Horizontal positioning?

When you can make this 2-player game a 1-player game, it doesn't matter what the person in disadvantage is doing. I don't need to clarify my definition of advantage because it's purposefully ambiguous.

 

[The-Technique]

Perfect Diddy still has crappy air speed. Perfect ZSS is still dependent on grabs and jumps in neutral. Perfect Bayo still can't approach well.



Perfect Cloud is perfect.

not that i disagree with most of your post, but what exactly makes a hypothetical perfect cloud "perfect"? doesnt cloud have one of the worst disadvantage states among the top tiers?

 

[Rizen]

I've been saying for some time Sheik's worse than the chimp/witch/emo trio but find it hard to believe she's falling out of the top 4. Salem might be right about SDI ruining her kill setups but that's yet to be proven. Interactions in controlled setups and theory can prove detached from actual tournament play. It's harder to use the optimal options when you're under pressure reacting to another player. Frankly Sheik's better than the lower top tiers; I consider 'top' to be divided into 2 tiers btw. Even with SDI-ing Uair Sheik would be top 10. Fox is successful killing with Usmash and Bair so why can't Sheik kill with her Usmash, BF, vanish, Bair with occasional Fsmash and Uair? Her advantage is so good she can get away with reads and reaction kills.

 

[MercuryPenny]

Fox is successful killing with Usmash and Bair so why can't Sheik kill with her Usmash, BF, vanish, Bair with occasional Fsmash and Uair?

this is like comparing limit cross slash to mario's f-smash. fox's up smash has no sourspot and kills hella early, and back air autocancels for all but 6 frames. shiek's up smash relies on a precise sweet spot, bouncing fish requires a fair string to go out pretty much to the blast zone, vanish kills pretty late, i don't think bair is anywhere near the strength nor spammability of fox's bair, f-smash is super unreliable, and up air...is shiek's best option, actually.

i dont know how to finish posts like this

 

[ARGHETH]

Fox is successful killing with Usmash and Bair so why can't Sheik kill with her Usmash, BF, vanish, Bair with occasional Fsmash and Uair? Her advantage is so good she can get away with reads and reaction kills.

...because Fox's Usmash is a F8 move doing 16% that starts on the ground and Bair does 13% and has a good autocancel, while Sheik's Usmash usually needs the tipper hitbox to kill and still does less KB than Fox's, Bair does 8%, Vanish is F36 and only does 12%, and Fsmash is notoriously unreliable.

Generally, Fox's kill options are significantly better than Sheik's in their combination of speed, power, and hitboxes. Sheik can kill with them, but Fox kills much easier and safer.

 

[my_T]

Doesn't ANTi have a really positive record vs the top sheiks?

ANTi kinda pulls all the weight in the Mario Sheik MU. Ally has a losing (slightly, by one set or so) record vs Void and Mr R. Zenyou has lost a lot of sets to Void. Ron is 0-1 vs Mr R.

Looking at each characters tools and the set count I'd say the MU is pretty even and could possibly get worse for Mario but only slightly.

 

[Pyrover]

Just curious. Why do we bring up "perfect X," Sheik in this case?

For one thing, people are never going to play perfectly. For two, if we assume both players are playing perfectly, then neither character would ever be getting hit and the game would come down to port priority.

Perfect X is a character we'll never see in any form. Is it really worth discussing them?

 

[Dream Cancel]

If they use a sword for the majority of their moves (tilts or smashes for the characters in question) I would say yes.

My list:


Robin...ugh my favorite sword and not too good. I can say a lot about you but I'm lazy so yeah. It's not running out of tombs that is the big issue or damage output, killing, etc. Run speed. Run speed neuters Robin so badly. It makes it harder to camp when you lose tombs(10 second average or whatever it is for tomb recovery isn't easy when you're slower than Jiggs on the ground.) Then you have the issue of losing Elwind, considering it's an amazing damage racker and move out of D throw that can also kill early with rage. It's so useful that you may overuse it. Once you do, you are not going to last 40 seconds for another one without being thrown off stage. Your recovery becomes worse than Little Mac tier. So you can't even use it's actually really good spiking ability without fear of losing it offstage

You lose elwind, you lose the stock.

Then you have the run speed, which makes you lose so many follow-ups out of arc thunder or Elfire. Elfire isn't so bad as it is a mostly close-up move. You can get your follow-up or cover ledges with it relatively fine. But arcthunder? Unless you're in point blank range or at least a character body away, you are not getting another follow-up opportunity. He's just to slow to link the leven sword into it for kills and damage.

Tournament results aren't helping either considering 8 Robin mains didn't even make top 48 at FE saga, including Dath. We need that cosplaying Robin who beat Nairo once to rep the Robin meta lol jk.

Leven sword is really incredible though and only a 6 second wait for a new one is nothing. Imagine level sword on...anyone faster. Also d throw kill confirm is still good. Not great like other ones but very solid.

I love you Robin but bottom of the mid tier. Maybe top of the low if you continue to fail so badly.

-snip-

A bit late, but there's some mis-information here that I'd like to clear up.

1) Someone already mentioned that Elwind does not have a 40 second cooldown. They are correct. The 40 second cooldown applies to Nosferatu (Down-B). Elwind's cooldown is 7 seconds.

2) Run speed is her one of her largest weaknesses, yes. Although it's not her worst one, imo. Her worst one is her disadvantage state being mediocre at best and being unable to get off ledge/land safely.

3) Robin almost always gets a Levin Fair follow up at a mid-range (defined as a bit outside of her Levin Aerial range) should her opponent get caught by Arcthunder or Arcfire, despite her speed.

4) Arcfire in neutral/close-quarters is a meme due to its' 64 frame FAF. Arcfire excels at trapping landings and pressuring ledge, assuming good spacing (which is important).

5) Arcthunder's trapping properties allows Robin to close the distance, despite her speed. She can usually connect an aerial, and if not, benefit from stage control. It's also excellent on shields and heavily limits opposing options if it does connect. Correct counter-play is to dodge Arcthunder.

You're right about her results, though. They're not good. Her future lies in improvement of her neutral, imo.

 

[Luigi player]

Luigi does probably lose to Cloud, about 55:45. It shows in the MKLeo/Elegant MU, Luigi has his d throw to 70 combos and cyclone offstage to ruin Cloud at 20, but you can see MKLeo mitigate these weakenesses more and more with each game. But they will always be there, and it limits Cloud from...well using limit o anything sides Up B or side b offstage when in yolo percent. Clouds sword and mobility is never not going to be a problem for Luigi. Mainly up air. Luigi cannot do anything against it except try to land again. All the aerials hurt him but Cloud's uair the most.

For future reference btw I wouldn't say people have no knowledge on a character at all just because they don't make them. There are some great theorists here that probably know more about Luigi, my main.

Agree with this. Luigis combos work wonders in this MU, but he still struggles a lot.
Cloud can just jump around with aerials and Luigi can't do too much about it because of the swords disjoint. Bairs and nairs are hard to break through, and nair deals a surprising amount of damage and it racks up. Luigi can't really combat these well unless maybe you get a read and powershield or bair him first. Bair is really good in neutral if you manage to hit, but it has a lot of endinglag so if you miss or it's shielded and you aren't landing with it it'll put you into a bad position and you can get punished for free. Even in CQC if Cloud uses groundattacks it's not that easy to approach him. His jas are good enough for mixups and have amazing range, and if he manages to get a sideB it'll deal a lot of damage. Also his runspeed is amazing so it's sometimes hard to avoid grabs as well. If he dashes towards you it's always kinda a 50:50. Grab or dashattack? DA is threatening enough to make you shield, sadly. And running or jumping away as Luigi isn't the greatest thing to do.

It's also hard to get back to the stage or onstage from the ledge, since Cloud could punish you so hard (and ledgejump is kinda risky because you'll have to land again while he can try to uair you).

The worst thing though is limit. Obviously Crossslash is just too hard to deal with. He can easily force airdodges with his uair and then punish hard and get KOs. Even limit Bladebeam is threatening enough to not make you able to spam Fireball anymore, since it'll go through - this is a huge problem. What I also think has a huge impact is that he gains so much more speed while having full limit. His movement is so amazing while having it that it's making the whole MU a loot harder for Luigi.
It makes you want to have him burn his limit when you get him offstage, but it's really hard to make him use it imo, without getting hit by it at least. It won't really help if he Crossslashes you and you get sent far away while he comes back onstage and charges halfway through again.

You can only really hope to get some great combo-conversions and possibly get some gimps with downB. Sadly Luigis most damaging combos need DI reads so you could also not get much out of them and obviously you need to get grabs too.

Luigi can somewhat manage in the MU if you pull off your combos and somehow play good around his full limit movement & attacks, probably +1 for Cloud like Yonder said.

while we talking about Luigi MU's I wonder what the MU vs Sonic is considered like?
I know Sonic is considered one of Mario's worst MU's. at first I can't see it being much better for Luigi due to his low traction and overall lower mobility than Mario. Then again I can imagine Luigi can use his Cyclone to maybe beat out Spin Dashes

I wish I would know more about this MU by now.
I'm doing okay against Sonics and felt like it's not disadvantaged for Luigi, but I hadn't really played against the top Sonics so I couldn't tell how it'd be against them.
At Syndicate I played KEN in 2 friendlies, the first one was ~okay-ish, but I sadly SD'd at mid % so that sucked. And in the 2nd he completely destroyed me with his speed. To be fair I shouldn't have died (/gotten hit) from his bairs offstage at like 80 twice in that match, but I wasn't really ready I guess. Sadly there was no time for more matches and I also wasn't able to play the other great Sonics that were there (SGK and Ixis) to get more experience against different ones. Mr R told me it's hard to get used to KEN, and it probably really is, but maybe the MU is just bad if the Sonic plays on that level?
But Elegant got to game 5 against KEN once, so it doesn't seem to be too bad. Lately he lost sets against 2 or 3 Sonics iirc, though (without taking many or any games).
I guess I did play against Ixis once in doubles some time ago and it went well, but it's doubles so that won't tell much.

Atm I sadly don't know what to think of how the MU is, leaning towards +1 Sonic (most people felt that way already afaik). It could also be about +1.5 for Sonic, but I think Elegant will be able to beat Sonics again or get close and make the MU feel more towards evenish.

Luigi can deal with Sonics camping a little better than Mario because of Fireballs not being as laggy and downB being able to beat spindashes so the Sonic can not just mindlessly spindash all the time (problem here is though he could punish downB if he predicts it and jumps away first (Luigis downB is so laggy), but like I said at least it forces him to second-guess it).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Robin has strong neutral conversions/containment with Thunder variants and great trap potential with Arc Fire. Damn solid normals with Levin Sword and grab conversions too.

The problem is getting that hit with such limited mobility.

Really I think she could go far just by charging Thunder and getting people to commit to an approach similar to Cloud with charging Limit. Also feel Arc Fire should be pretty much abandoned in neutral. Whiff that and Robin feels pain. D-tilt is a solid poke with ok range but leads to nothing. Gives some space though which can segway into zoning so that is nice. Good jab. Ftilt is bleh.

Not to mention Robin's book/sword durability. Though intelligent item use when they are discarded is an integral part of the character's neutral.

I'm not really sure how this character can grow more in neutral other then more appropriate Thunder abuse, better item play with books/sword, and playing for stage position and not solely for damage.

 

[Nobie]

I think the tricky thing about discussing Sheik vs. Perfect Sheik and tier placement is that all of Sheik's weaknesses are focused on the offensive side.

I would actually argue that Sheik has no real defensive weaknesses. The most you could say is that she's kind of light, kind of average-sized, and falls kind of fast. This is all backed up by an absurdly good recovery, amazing frame data, good reach, excellent specials. On defense, Sheik wants for nothing. The characters being mentioned above her all have pronounced defensive flaws (Bayo bad dodge lag, Diddy/Cloud recovery, Rosalina is a huge target). While they can make up these holes in other categories, those weaknesses can be exploited by comparable characters.

On offense, Sheik has low damage per hit, which makes trading potentially an issue. She has to do a whole song and dance to get kills, where others just have to swing their arms at opportune moments. Perfect Sheik is probably unstoppable, but it's no coincidence that Sheik has to work so much harder for damage.

But because Sheik's weaknesses are purely on offense, and only in a very specific way (not like Sheik ever struggles to approach), it makes the notion of "perfection" that much harder to grasp. It's always possible for Sheik to do SOMETHING. The issue is that Sheik has to do many more "somethings" than others, especially in the top tier and even compared to some low and mid tiers. It's easy to be perfect once. Harder to be perfect 10 times. Even harder to be perfect 50 times.

 

[MERPIS]

calling it now, sonic will eventually replace sheik in the 4th spot
and he will never move anywhere else...