Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

late drop in with this info but

Wavedashing is a movement component of Melee, but this is a consistent pre-Brawl/post-Brawl era argument I saw a lot of on GameFAQs in 2007-2008 (+>Onwards, less so today) that bothered me.

• It's not "half" of the execution. The bulk of execution in terms of tech skill is probably L-Cancelling unless you're playing a character like Luigi.
• In general, a lot of tech will be dependent on your character, with fast falling/l cancelling/short hopping/wavedashing inputs being some of the more important ones across the cast.
• Note that tech skill discovered has literally resulted in hard memory card fixes because the Gamecube controller is terrible and certain controllers (%5>) have all the desired traits required to perform certain tech skills, or require modding via notches.
• Hungrybox is a really weird example to bring up in tandem with tech skill because Jigglypuff has a very low tech skill ceiling in Melee. I'm pretty sure HBox would be top 5 free in Smash 4 if he put as much time into Smash 4 as he does Melee, but the latter is what he's built himself into over the years so he's stuck to it.
• The reason they don't like Smash 4 as much is because the engine constricts movement far more than Melee's does. Melee allows for a more flashy combo game and has a much high demand for technical input. This isn't the only aspect of the game (note the "he can multishine 40 times but he can't consistently wavedash" jokes targeted at newer players who don't practice fundamentals enough) but it's a defining trait that makes Melee unique from Smash 4, hence it has its own crowd.

Wavedashing is not the end-all-be-all tech skill. You are not better simply by being able to wavedash because, like perfect pivoting or other movement techs, you have to know when/how to use it in a specific situation in order for it to be of any use at all. You need to have a grasp of neutral to know how to use it. Compare something like L-Cancelling where it is outright required to use because your frames improve based on that input, meaning you're able to follow up significantly faster.

I don't really like comparing the game's players/mechanics in terms of consistency. Things fall apart very quickly when you stop being insular and bring in the general FGC where consistency issues and top player upsets are far, far more common than they are in Melee: Melee and (Project M, and arguably 64) are pretty exceptional in their lack of upsets at the top level.

Oddly enough, one of the thing that feels constricted with Melee and PM is the lack of a frame buffer.

10 is very forgiving in smash 4 but 0 just doesn’t feel good at all.

Execution in Melee depends a lot on who you are using and what is value a lot.

Still this post is pretty on point.

 

[R3D3MON]

Oddly enough, one of the thing that feels constricted with Melee and PM is the lack of a frame buffer.

10 is very forgiving in smash 4 but 0 just doesn’t feel good at all.

Execution in Melee depends a lot on who you are using and what is value a lot.

Still this post is pretty on point.

I agree with this actually. 10 frame is ridiculous and not conducive to competition but 0 does seem a bit too punishing (although ultimately you just have to practice and "git gud"). I really like PM's 3-frame buffer window.

 

[Nu~]

The lack of a frame buffer is why playing melee made me think my controller was broken.

Im definitely not about low frame buffers. It's a meaningless nuance that makes every combo or string feel like a QuickTime event. **** that garbage lol

 

[MrGameguycolor]

It's honestly kind of bizarre. Greninja has had whole ton of growth in the past two years. I remember back in the day we had . . . four relevant players? and now we have like twenty. but greninja is still viewed as niche-y high mid character. sigh.

At least you have relevant players.
Be grateful damn it.

 

[R3D3MON]

The lack of a frame buffer is why playing melee made me think my controller was broken.

Im definitely not about low frame buffers. It's a meaningless nuance that makes every combo or string feel like a QuickTime event. **** that garbage lol

Still better than Smash 4's 10-frame nonsense

 

[|RK|]

your first paragraph makes it look like you didn't even read my post. i said how i think results should be incorporated into tier lists. the general rule of thumb is that tier lists should be based on matchup spreads, which are based on 'theory' that is crafted and refined by studying interactions and looking at results. that is very useful because it uses a metric that actually measures how good characters are (their matchups against the cast) and accounts for shifts in the metagame (changes in theory/trends in results).

the confirms i listed aren't situational. up b oos is very common to land, especially against fox who often commits to options that bayonetta can combat with up b oos. up b has a guaranteed confirm into fair. the timing for the up b into fair is not especially easy, and neither is the timing for the fair string. however, the fact that the current top bayos miss it essentially every time is indicative of just not practicing it because it's not so hard that it cannot be consistently done with practice. there isn't really a practical way to sdi out of the fair string, so once you are hit by the fair you should be dead. fair can also be landed raw in neutral. dtilt is a common move to land in neutral. getting a fair out of heel slide or in an up b->side b combo is not uncommon. these are not particularly hard things to land, and the fair should always lead to death.

i don't agree that fox wins neutral against bayo. it's a close neutral, granted, but there's still many things that bayo has going for her. fox doesn't really have a way to force bayo to approach because bayo has all of the options to basically ignore lasers (i'm presuming that's what you mean) and the options to punish them from further distances than other characters due to bullet arts, heel slide, and dive kick. bayo is a relatively hard character to dance around because she has good range and burst options to cover both above and next to her. fox can sort of play games with his movement, but there's definitely limits to it. most of fox's effectiveness against bayo in neutral comes down to whiff punishing, low end lag, and his ability to get under bayonetta quickly. bayonetta still has a lot of options from a defensive standpoint and a solid bait/punish game that she can utilize to make neutral very tight or in her favor.

i said fox struggles in general with the top 4 because he has two slightly losing matchups and one solidly losing matchup without beating any of them. it's not as bad as a character like zss or mewtwo struggles with the top 4, but it's also worse than characters like rosalina, sonic, pikachu, mario, and mk do, and on par with the likes of corrin and marth. while matchups against those characters don't determine everything, i think effectiveness against them is one of the more important aspects of how good a character is. the way i tend to weigh this is matchups vs top 4>matchups vs 5-15 (the range of characters i'd put in the tier after the top 4)>matchups vs everyone else. i won't dispute that fox is solo viable at top level, but i think other characters are with fewer/less important problematic matchups. i'll post my top 20 at some point soon because i think it could spark interesting discussion.

No, I read your post. Don't agree with only using results to refine MU spreads, which are then used to build tier lists. A good tier list should simply show how good characters are in the meta. For that, we don't just see how well characters match up - we look at how far they go and how often. MU spreads should be a big part of it too, but ultimately, if a character is able to make splashes frequently, it's difficult if not impossible not to take note of that when making a list of how viable said character is.

As for Bayo vs Fox - I listed three things, not just situational. SDI for Witch Twist, for one thing. But beyond that, iirc (and correct me if I'm wrong), the only way you get fair chains alone (no WT) to convert to death is repeatedly alternating between fair 1 & fair 2. And this is typically deadly offstage because Fox has to SDI + airdodge, which puts him in an unsavory position. But typically offstage - not mid stage.

That's the only death combo I know of on Fox by Bayo. If you have video showing something else, definitely share!

As for neutral - it's not just about his ability to force her to approach with lasers (which outrange bullet arts anyways). Bayonetta isn't ZSS - her mobility stats are firmly "okay." The way she dances around opponents/camps them out is typically by abusing specials and large hitboxes.

Thing is, as mentioned - Fox is fast enough to chase her landings, and fast enough to bait out those large hitboxes & get in as needed. His frame data outclasses hers as well. Obviously, she has other traits - WT OOS for example - but a lot of Bayonetta's threatening neutral comes from simultaneously abusing her "vulnerable" state and giant hitboxes.

Makes me wonder how good a campy Fox would be against her, tbh. But IDK of any campy Foxes in this game.

As for the last point - from what I'm seeing, top Bayos are beginning to believe the Fox MU is better for Fox than initially thought - not just randoms like me.

And all the characters you mentioned - Mario, Rosalina, Sonic, Pikachu, MK - have their own host of issues. Rosalina has a poor MU against one of the most common characters in the game (worse than Fox has it, based on results), and then still has MK.

Sonic... doesn't do so well against Bayo himself. Cloud and Sheik also beat him, depending on who you ask. Mario to Bayo and Cloud, solidly so. Pikachu... certainly really good, but a bad Mario MU. I don't know the rest of his MUs super well, so no other comment there. And MK... since post-patch, I'm not sure what MUs he solidly *wins* anymore (minus floaties, ofc).

And while most of those aren't "top 4" MUs, I think it still illustrates my point.

---

Funny enough, though, your logic illustrates my point about DK/Bowser. If you A) value MUs against the top 4 above MUs elsewhere, and B) use results to refine theory and logic... DK and Bowser do solidly against Sheik & Cloud at least.

But of course, this is the point where we get into theory, and everyone has such wildly different theories about characters and MUs - gets hard to move towards anything.

 

[Bowserboy3]

It's not just about results when I think about placing characters in a tier list.

I'll use Olimar and DK/Bowser as examples. Yes, Shutton has been placing incredibly well at nearly everything he's attended. Olimar is a very good character (if not just harder to master than most).

However, do I feel mentally pressured when i'm about to fight an Olimar? Does he have that aura about him? No, not really. He's just a very good character. I know that I can just play a normal game vs him and attempt to win off of that.

When I have to face a DK or Bowser, I automatically feel a little pressured as soon as the game begins because I know that no matter how good I play, one wrong move could lead to my demise at mid-high percents. It doesn't matter how well I play vs them, I could just get f*cked up by them off of one grab. It's that kind of mental pressure/mindgame that means a lot when playing a game like smash, and I'd argue that many top players would rather face an Olimar than a DK or Bowser.

Just my stance on them.

 

[Yonder]

It's not just about results when I think about placing characters in a tier list.

I'll use Olimar and DK/Bowser as examples. Yes, Shutton has been placing incredibly well at nearly everything he's attended. Olimar is a very good character (if not just harder to master than most).

However, do I feel mentally pressured when i'm about to fight an Olimar? Does he have that aura about him? No, not really. He's just a very good character. I know that I can just play a normal game vs him and attempt to win off of that.

When I have to face a DK or Bowser, I automatically feel a little pressured as soon as the game begins because I know that no matter how good I play, one wrong move could lead to my demise at mid-high percents. It doesn't matter how well I play vs them, I could just get f*cked up by them off of one grab. It's that kind of mental pressure/mindgame that means a lot when playing a game like smash, and I'd argue that many top players would rather face an Olimar than a DK or Bowser.

Just my stance on them.

I think every heavyweight not named DDD exudes that aura of fear, just because rage makes them that much scarier. DK and Bowser are super mobile too for their size, alters reaction time a bit when fear lingers in the conciousness and a 400 lb Gorilla is sprinting at you ready to kill you at 50 with a grab. Even Ganondorf who is slow as molasses can punish just one mistake with that rage boost. I'm only really fearing the heavyweights though that are not DDD as the match progresses.

At the start of the match though? My mind is fresh, confident, and basically writes them off as big punching bags. I'd fear Olimar more at the start for versatility alone.

...

I'm sorry, it's bothering me but Dedede sucks. Maybe worse than Ganondorf. I know he has arguably the best survivability in the game, but that means nothing when I don't fear him because his KO power sucks even with rage. At least Ganondorf can punish someone for making a mistake if they choose to play super campy and they mess up. Ganondorf has Atom4 at least who gets results occasionally, DDD has Girthquake and Big D. And Big D dropped this guy for the most part. Girthquake I never see go to big events.

DDD has really nice ledge traps, recovery, survivability, and a good D throw and grab for a nice conjunction. He also has decent range.

Someone show me the light with DDD though because I don't see it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Dedede is definitely worse than Ganondorf, and I refuse to let anyone convince me otherwise.

I am likely more biased, because like I say, commonly play/team with best Ganon in the UK and see/experience his sh*t, but just look at Ganon's results compared to other bottom and even low tiers. Far better.

Still a flawed and in general bad character, on the lower end of the list for sure, don't get me wrong.

However, I am a big advocate for Ganon; truly believe he isn't a bottom 5 character all in all. adom's recent performance is enough to convince me of this.

Infact, I am interested adom4 , where do you think Ganon is on the tier list? I know there was some Ganon talk a few weeks back and was summoned for that, but I missed most of it. I'm not asking you to confirm my thoughts, just merely interested in what a different Ganon main thinks of him. You may think he's bottom 3 and that's fine. You likely know of FOB, and he thinks Ganon is at least better than Puff, Zelda, Dedede and Mii Sword (I think there are a couple more but would need to talk with him to confirm).

 

[Skeeter Mania]

but just look at Ganon's results compared to other bottom and even low tiers. Far better.

Speaking of which, how's the consensus on Pacman?

For a character long-considered bottom 10 material, he has surprisingly good results for that standard. Sinji has placements like 17th at Dreamhack Atlanta and 25th at Smash Con whilst only losing to Nairo, TEA made a return in Japan by finishing 7th at Sumaboto 19 with a win on Gomamugitya, and POW garnered a win on aMsa (in a MU that's considered one of Pacman's worst).

 

[Frihetsanka]

For a character long-considered bottom 10 material, he has surprisingly good results for that standard.

At this point, I kind of feel most characters that aren't Jigglypuff or Dark Pit can make that claim. Still, some characters have to be bottom 10, and if not Pac-Man, then which ones?

 

[PJB]

With the next official tier list possibly coming in the foreseeable future, I'd like to bring up a point about what it means to be top tier. If the tier list is truly meant to be a snapshot of the meta, then I think that based on Das Koopa's results Bayo, Cloud, Diddy and debatably sheik belong in their own tier. If we want to call it S, A+, whatever, I think the distinction between those 3 (or 4) is important now. We have plenty of characters capable of winning tournaments (see Luigi last weekend...almost), but it seems to me there is a more defined top tier than ever before

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Dark Pit is most likely a clone usage problem and not a character related issue with how good or bad he is.

 

[Illuminose]

No, I read your post. Don't agree with only using results to refine MU spreads, which are then used to build tier lists. A good tier list should simply show how good characters are in the meta. For that, we don't just see how well characters match up - we look at how far they go and how often. MU spreads should be a big part of it too, but ultimately, if a character is able to make splashes frequently, it's difficult if not impossible not to take note of that when making a list of how viable said character is.

As for Bayo vs Fox - I listed three things, not just situational. SDI for Witch Twist, for one thing. But beyond that, iirc (and correct me if I'm wrong), the only way you get fair chains alone (no WT) to convert to death is repeatedly alternating between fair 1 & fair 2. And this is typically deadly offstage because Fox has to SDI + airdodge, which puts him in an unsavory position. But typically offstage - not mid stage.

That's the only death combo I know of on Fox by Bayo. If you have video showing something else, definitely share!

As for neutral - it's not just about his ability to force her to approach with lasers (which outrange bullet arts anyways). Bayonetta isn't ZSS - her mobility stats are firmly "okay." The way she dances around opponents/camps them out is typically by abusing specials and large hitboxes.

Thing is, as mentioned - Fox is fast enough to chase her landings, and fast enough to bait out those large hitboxes & get in as needed. His frame data outclasses hers as well. Obviously, she has other traits - WT OOS for example - but a lot of Bayonetta's threatening neutral comes from simultaneously abusing her "vulnerable" state and giant hitboxes.

Makes me wonder how good a campy Fox would be against her, tbh. But IDK of any campy Foxes in this game.

As for the last point - from what I'm seeing, top Bayos are beginning to believe the Fox MU is better for Fox than initially thought - not just randoms like me.

And all the characters you mentioned - Mario, Rosalina, Sonic, Pikachu, MK - have their own host of issues. Rosalina has a poor MU against one of the most common characters in the game (worse than Fox has it, based on results), and then still has MK.

Sonic... doesn't do so well against Bayo himself. Cloud and Sheik also beat him, depending on who you ask. Mario to Bayo and Cloud, solidly so. Pikachu... certainly really good, but a bad Mario MU. I don't know the rest of his MUs super well, so no other comment there. And MK... since post-patch, I'm not sure what MUs he solidly *wins* anymore (minus floaties, ofc).

And while most of those aren't "top 4" MUs, I think it still illustrates my point.

---

Funny enough, though, your logic illustrates my point about DK/Bowser. If you A) value MUs against the top 4 above MUs elsewhere, and B) use results to refine theory and logic... DK and Bowser do solidly against Sheik & Cloud at least.

But of course, this is the point where we get into theory, and everyone has such wildly different theories about characters and MUs - gets hard to move towards anything.

bayo can fair string from mid stage. witch twist and utilt both pop fox into a position where bayo can begin her inescapable fair string (btw, it's fair 1) and kill fox. no, this is not currently done at top level. however, it's absolutely practical and simply not executed at the moment. in fact, salem used to be able to do it, as seen in this clip against larry. salem gets heel slide to fair near the edge of the stage and converts a mid stage dtilt into a combo that leads into a fair string and kills fox off the side. he actually misses an up b fair in this clip that could have also led to death, though he tries to go for it.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=eAZEQcTbna8

at ~1:50, lima gets a side b that links into fair 1 into another fair 1 and kills larry off the side. although this isn't an extended version of the combo, you can see how a side b fair string would work. at ~2:35, lima tries to go for up b fair. although he doesn't quite perform it correctly to get the fair string, you can see that he's trying to go for it (it is something that works). at ~3:49, lima goes for side b fair and waits instead of committing to the fair string.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Q3nNhvEhz98

at ~1:40, lima misses two opportunities to fair string (the first fair catch and then the up b fair), choosing conversions that didn't kill instead. at ~8:48, you see lima actually get a fair string (out of up throw), but he decides to go for an up b at the end and messes up the fair connection afterwards.

i didn't highlight every time lima could have gone for a fair in a combo to lead into the fair string, but i did note some instances where he clearly had the right idea but just messed up the execution so you can see what i'm getting at.

i don't think the fox bayo mu is too awful, but i have trouble seeing it as better than -2 when people agree that it is losing for fox despite bayos not utilizing their highly practical and guaranteed death combos with fair 1. i don't think you have too absurd a position in thinking fox slightly wins neutral, though i'd say it's even, but even if he does, i think the oppressive nature of bayo's punish game in the mu makes it difficult for fox.

 

[ARISTOS]

Except situations are almost never solved, only for laughable MUs like DK vs Rosa or something.

also:


If anything, check out the solution and compare it to several other solutions and evaluate which is best consistently. However, take consideration for what other solutions offer and how they branch off from there. Keep all in your repitoire. I like the engineering style you're going with though.

Yeah "solved" isn't the right word (as it insinuates that we have reached the best possible answer), more like we have an answer at a certain point in time but it might be able to be improved upon later down the road. You should still use the answer (aka if there is a figured out solution and you struggle with the situation, don't avoid using it, learn how to apply it to your game!) but also be looking to constantly fine tune that solution.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Though I think hammering down a top 20 isn't necessary given most characters who aren't top 20 locks are generally around the same power level, I think it's interesting to look at the contenders vying for those 12-20 spots and see who are locks and who aren't.

Top 10/11:

Some people may move characters like Mario or Marth outside of this group, but generally most tier lists will have the above characters in various orders.

That leaves 9 spots for 16 characters.

are generally seen as locks that are placed high up (often within 12-15), so I won't spend time arguing for them.

Shuton's solo performances with this character have been nothing short of amazing and outstrip almost every other character on this list. I know people don't like the results argument but very few things seem to actually shut Olimar down and the best player of the character can regularly contend with the best players in the world. Olimar should be in a top 20.

Lucario thrives in a top tier environment where he doesn't have to worry about heavy hitters instantly ruining his day. Like Shuton, we've seen Tsu go toe-to-toe with the very best, but unlike Shuton Tsu seems to suffer more from an bad bracket day (running into Hikaru/Larry etc.) However, when that doesn't happen he tends to perform well. His dash specs are insane, and once he gets to 80% he's a very threatening character, compounded by the fact that you generally won't kill him for another 40-50% at least.

That rounds up my top 15, so the last 5 spots are split around the remaining 12 characters.

 

[adom4]

Dedede is definitely worse than Ganondorf, and I refuse to let anyone convince me otherwise.

I am likely more biased, because like I say, commonly play/team with best Ganon in the UK and see/experience his sh*t, but just look at Ganon's results compared to other bottom and even low tiers. Far better.

Still a flawed and in general bad character, on the lower end of the list for sure, don't get me wrong.

However, I am a big advocate for Ganon; truly believe he isn't a bottom 5 character all in all. adom's recent performance is enough to convince me of this.

Infact, I am interested adom4 , where do you think Ganon is on the tier list? I know there was some Ganon talk a few weeks back and was summoned for that, but I missed most of it. I'm not asking you to confirm my thoughts, just merely interested in what a different Ganon main thinks of him. You may think he's bottom 3 and that's fine. You likely know of FOB, and he thinks Ganon is at least better than Puff, Zelda, Dedede and Mii Sword (I think there are a couple more but would need to talk with him to confirm).

Ganon's about 4th-6th worst imo, above Puff/Zelda/DDD and maybe Kirby/Jr.
and while i think DDD is worse than him his results are surprisingly decent with Zaki, Bryce and El_Bardo putting in work.

 

[Nu~]

Speaking of which, how's the consensus on Pacman?

For a character long-considered bottom 10 material, he has surprisingly good results for that standard. Sinji has placements like 17th at Dreamhack Atlanta and 25th at Smash Con whilst only losing to Nairo, TEA made a return in Japan by finishing 7th at Sumaboto 19 with a win on Gomamugitya, and POW garnered a win on aMsa (in a MU that's considered one of Pacman's worst).

I'd add Edwin's surprising 2 stock on Salem to the list (and while the commentators were talking about how "terrible" Pac-man is at that lol) and Pepespain's last stock last hit against iStudying. Neither of them won the entire set, but they still put some pretty big dents in high caliber opponents.

My hot take is that Pac-Man is secretly good


I'm definitely starting to think I dismissed the character too soon...his meta just won't stop growing. Not sure if it ever well tbh.
Like... Tea just keeps showing me how unsubstantiated a lot of his "bad theory" is/was. Dude gets around shield just fine, kills at reasonable percentages, plays a highly effective aggro game w/ a char once thought to be a camper, and ppl in Japan still just can't seem to counterplay all his tricks...

There's something here

 

[Kofu]

My take on Pac-Man is that his mains should be aware of all his tricks and know how to mix them up. The character has a plethora of options but only a few are reasonable at any given time. If Pac-Man starts just focusing on one or two of the easy setups, he's going to get figured out very quickly. It takes a creative and very aware player to be good with Pac-Man.

As an anecdote, Abadango's initial stint seems strange in retrospect, since his later choices of Meta Knight, Bayonetta, and (kind of) Mewtwo all focus around solid, common neutral confirms that can often lead to death (or at least significant damage). That seems like the opposite of Pac-Man in a lot of ways.

 

[Nu~]

My take on Pac-Man is that his mains should be aware of all his tricks and know how to mix them up. The character has a plethora of options but only a few are reasonable at any given time. If Pac-Man starts just focusing on one or two of the easy setups, he's going to get figured out very quickly. It takes a creative and very aware player to be good with Pac-Man.

Yea, that's a problem that a lot of Pac-Man players run into. Tunnel visioning is a death sentence with this char. He requires you to be as fluid in thought as his tools are in usage.

Pac-Man's meta has gotta grow to the point where his players start leading oppo's into a false sense of security with obvious traps. Counter the counterplay

That, and your opponent's counterplay can give you insight into their thought process.

 

[TDK]

I still don't see what people see in Pac-Man. His kit just doesn't work and whenever I see him play you can tell the opponent has no idea what they're doing (hint: start shielding more). Getting relevant might actually be a death sentence since counterplay to most of his kit is fairly easy, and turning the fruits/hydrant against him is really easy.

Until then, I hope his mains keep it going. Love watching him.

And Mugi has been confirmed for FE Saga.

 

[Jaguar360]

I believe that is mostly due to lack of results in the high levels and top levels of play. iStudying hasn't really done too many notable things in the past months outside of syndicate. I feel gren has the potential to be a top 10 pick once he gets the results that fit him. He has almost everything he needs to be a top tier pick, mobility, recovery, okay kill power, safeness, a good projectile, decent range and frame data, and when his combo game is mastered, its some of the most dangerous in the game.

iStudying isn't the main source of Greninja results anymore. It's pretty much evenly spread out between Some, Oisiitofu, Lea, Stroder, Venia, iStud and Elex and the top level. Greninja's results are actually quite good when taken from all levels of play and all regions, as seen with his consistent placings between 11-30 on Das Koopa's rankings over the past like 8 months, but he's yet to make a bigger splash at a major than say Some's 9th at Frostbite or Stroder's 13th at West Side Saga. On top of Greninja's best players not traveling much and not being a useful secondary for the most part, you can see why many wouldn't notice the results he's getting.

Aside from results, there are also a decent amount of players who see Greninja like Pit as in not having many notable strengths, which is also kind of understandable, but Greninja is actual quite oppressive with his juggling and zoning against much of the cast. I also think some just don't understand the importance of mobility: because Greninja has top 5 mobility stats across the game, he can play a very adaptive neutral, catch landings super well with his high jumps, high fall speed, and excellent ground and air speed, get offstage for edgeguards really effeciently, and force most opponents to approach. And he's got Hydro Pump for extra mobility options and long range pressure to help get out of disadvantage and make to easier to get conversions in advantage. Most characters don't have the freedom to do all that and it's a great and possibly underrated privilege. It's fine to not be impressed, but it's too often that I see weird reasons for putting Greninja low.

 

[freeziebeatz]

Just looking at the big tournaments that has occurred this PGR season, I believe the Top 20 of the current meta is looking like this (mainly off results, not looking at raw potential). I am only looking at the bigger events though so that would be 2GGC Sagas and S Tier Events instead of looking at every event like Das Koopa does.
Note - Strongest Showing does not mean best placement. It means how strongly the character was represented in the Top 16ish area. This includes mains and secondaries.

Spoiler: Top of the Pack

- These characters are definitely making up the Top 3. Cloud and Bayonetta mains have been showing up strong these past couple of majors and fill up Top 16s. Diddy Kong has been having a resurgence of use as a secondary to a lot of Top players, and on top that, has ZeRo still carrying dominant performances and placing Top 3 at most tounaments.
- Cloud's Strongest Showing - Shine
- Diddy's Strongest Showing - Shine
- Bayo's Strongest Showing - EVO

Spoiler: Stong Results

- These 3 characters have shown strong results this season. VoiD and Mr.R are mostly making up Sheik's points while players like Vinnie, False, Kameme, etc, have also gained some results for this character, boosting its value. Fox has seen sucess from Larry Lurr and Light for the most part, and has been placing very well at tournaments. ZSS is mainly Nairo performing incredibly well, but still gets support from other great performances from ANTi, Marss, etc.
- Sheik's Strongest Showing - DreamHack Atlanta
- Fox's Strongest Showing - ARMS Saga / GTX
- ZSS Strongest Showing - Super Smash Con

Spoiler: Top Heavy Results

- Rosalina and Sonic have been in a strange place in terms of results. Rosalina has seen great sucess from players like Dabuz, Kirihara, and falln. But outside of these players, we do not see Rosalina outside of them. This leaves Rosalina lacking more in reults when these players do not make it too far into bracket. Sonic has been having stronger results with KEN placing in a bunch of Top 8s and players like Manny and 6WX stepping up and placing well at tournaments. Sonic also suffers a bit from placing high even though their is quite the amount of strong players representing this character.
- Rosalina's Strongest Showing - ARMS Saga
- Sonic's Strongest Showing - West Side Saga

Spoiler: Scattered Results

- The following characters have results that are either very strong or very weak depending on tournament. Mario has had scattered results from Ally and ANTi who have been either performing well or bustering out. Mario has seen some other results from players like Zenyou who has been taking more names in tournaments. Marth and Corrin mainly see results from usage of MKLeo. But Marth has seen some successes from players like Mr.E and secondary usage to other top players. Corrin has also gotten good results from Cosmos, who has made Top 16 in a couple of tournaments as well. Mewtwo is mainly getting results from WaDi and Abadango. WaDi has been more so carrying the character due to his great performance at Smash Con. Ryu has not have a stong as a season as the others, with Trela being out of the scene and Locus struggling as of recent. DarkShad has been picking up the results though as of recent and showing a brighter future for Ryu.
- Mario's Strongest Showing - Shine / GTX
- Marth's Strongest Showing - GTX
- Corrin's Strongest Showing - Shine
- Mewtwo's Strongest Showing - Super Smash Con
- Ryu's Strongest Showing - GTX

Spoiler: Secondary Results

- These characters are in a weird predicament. Both of these characters have dedicated mains who play their character well. But their main results come from secondaru usage. DK has a lot of spread out results between Tweek, Larry Lurr, NAKAT, false, and others. Bowser is primarily just from Nairo. Even though these characters don't really have results as primary mains, they appear in Top 8's and 16's still and shouldn't be ignored.
- DK's Strongest Showing - Shine
- Bowser's Strongest Showing - Super Smash Con

Spoiler: Carried Results

- These characters are for the most part, carried by one player. Luigi has Elegant, Olimar has Shuton, Peach has Samsora, Lucario has Tsu, and Megaman has Kameme. These characters' results hinge on these players performing well. While some characters have players who have shown strong potential like Myran. ScAtt, etc, they have not met the results that the others have this season.
- Luigi's Strongest Showing - GTX
- Olimar's Strongest Showing - West Side Saga
- Peach's Strongest Showing - GTX
- Lucario's Strongest Showing - ARMS Saga / West Side Saga
- Megaman's Strongest Showing - ARMS Saga

Spoiler: Just Missed the Cut

- These characters are just a little under the amount of high placing results that the others have seen. Pikachu was just a little shy under Megaman in terms of results at these events. Meta Knight hasn't seen any significant ones besides GTX. Link has only had one significant tournament as well which was West Side Saga. These characters just haven't shown the consistency or higher peaks than the characters shown already.

Spoiler: Top 20/25

So just based off of what I am looking at, I'd say the Top 20 of the meta consist of these characterss if we were only looking at results at major events.


()
Obviously this isn't going to be the Top 20 (I don't agree with it) without looking at the potential of characters. Plus some characters who have gotten strong results in the past like Falcon, Pikachu, Toon Link and Meta Knight can't be ignored in an overall Tier List as well as performances at lower tiered events. But I thought this would be something interesting to look at.

 

[Kofu]

I still don't see what people see in Pac-Man. His kit just doesn't work and whenever I see him play you can tell the opponent has no idea what they're doing (hint: start shielding more). Getting relevant might actually be a death sentence since counterplay to most of his kit is fairly easy, and turning the fruits/hydrant against him is really easy.

Until then, I hope his mains keep it going. Love watching him.

It seems strange to say that Pac-Man's kit doesn't work when his mains still manage to get respectable results three years into the game's lifespan.

I understand your point about opponents not knowing how to fight Pac-Man. The character is extremely uncommon and finding (high-level) players is rare. Usually when I've fought a good Pac-Man, I lose the first match, change my mindset, and proceed to win most of the following matches. But matchup inexperience can hardly be called an excuse in areas like New York where Sinji has consistently gotten top 3 for a long time. His character is clearly known, yet he still manages to place well.

Counterplay to individual options is clear and obvious, but when they start being combined it gets muddier. Not every character has an easy move to launch the hydrant; some might get slowed down by its water depending on the timing. How do you interact when he has a Trampoline in front of the hydrant (perhaps with a platform above him, too)? Which fruit does he have? Could he use it with the water to send it in a strange trajectory? Pac-Man's also got his generally solid normals to use, not just his specials. FAir is a really quick move that can be strung into other attacks, BAir is a solid launcher, NAir comes out at a delicious frame 3, UTilt covers him well from above, jab is frame 4 with nice range, and dash attack is an unusual movement option.

I'm not trying to say that Pac-Man is high tier or anything. The character obviously has his flaws (having all of his specials be interceptable sucks, his grab doesn't really work like it should), he has a few moves that are either undertuned or bad (DTilt and DAir come to mind), and I'd assume that most of the DLC is going to give him a hard time. But he's not a character you can write off just yet.

 

[BSP]

I still don't see what people see in Pac-Man. His kit just doesn't work and whenever I see him play you can tell the opponent has no idea what they're doing (hint: start shielding more). Getting relevant might actually be a death sentence since counterplay to most of his kit is fairly easy, and turning the fruits/hydrant against him is really easy.

Until then, I hope his mains keep it going. Love watching him.

And Mugi has been confirmed for FE Saga.

What exactly in Pac-man's kit doesn't work? (minus grab, which legit has dead zones)

Do you mean he doesn't have a clear game plan?

 

[slowbruh]

am i just good with dedede or is he not low tier

It seems strange to say that Pac-Man's kit doesn't work when his mains still manage to get respectable results three years into the game's lifespan.

I understand your point about opponents not knowing how to fight Pac-Man. The character is extremely uncommon and finding (high-level) players is rare. Usually when I've fought a good Pac-Man, I lose the first match, change my mindset, and proceed to win most of the following matches. But matchup inexperience can hardly be called an excuse in areas like New York where Sinji has consistently gotten top 3 for a long time. His character is clearly known, yet he still manages to place well.

Counterplay to individual options is clear and obvious, but when they start being combined it gets muddier. Not every character has an easy move to launch the hydrant; some might get slowed down by its water depending on the timing. How do you interact when he has a Trampoline in front of the hydrant (perhaps with a platform above him, too)? Which fruit does he have? Could he use it with the water to send it in a strange trajectory? Pac-Man's also got his generally solid normals to use, not just his specials. FAir is a really quick move that can be strung into other attacks, BAir is a solid launcher, NAir comes out at a delicious frame 3, UTilt covers him well from above, jab is frame 4 with nice range, and dash attack is an unusual movement option.

I'm not trying to say that Pac-Man is high tier or anything. The character obviously has his flaws (having all of his specials be interceptable sucks, his grab doesn't really work like it should), he has a few moves that are either undertuned or bad (DTilt and DAir come to mind), and I'd assume that most of the DLC is going to give him a hard time. But he's not a character you can write off just yet.

i have the same problem with dedede i think he shuild be higher

 

[|RK|]

bayo can fair string from mid stage. witch twist and utilt both pop fox into a position where bayo can begin her inescapable fair string (btw, it's fair 1) and kill fox. no, this is not currently done at top level. however, it's absolutely practical and simply not executed at the moment. in fact, salem used to be able to do it, as seen in this clip against larry. salem gets heel slide to fair near the edge of the stage and converts a mid stage dtilt into a combo that leads into a fair string and kills fox off the side. he actually misses an up b fair in this clip that could have also led to death, though he tries to go for it.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=eAZEQcTbna8

at ~1:50, lima gets a side b that links into fair 1 into another fair 1 and kills larry off the side. although this isn't an extended version of the combo, you can see how a side b fair string would work. at ~2:35, lima tries to go for up b fair. although he doesn't quite perform it correctly to get the fair string, you can see that he's trying to go for it (it is something that works). at ~3:49, lima goes for side b fair and waits instead of committing to the fair string.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Q3nNhvEhz98

at ~1:40, lima misses two opportunities to fair string (the first fair catch and then the up b fair), choosing conversions that didn't kill instead. at ~8:48, you see lima actually get a fair string (out of up throw), but he decides to go for an up b at the end and messes up the fair connection afterwards.

i didn't highlight every time lima could have gone for a fair in a combo to lead into the fair string, but i did note some instances where he clearly had the right idea but just messed up the execution so you can see what i'm getting at.

i don't think the fox bayo mu is too awful, but i have trouble seeing it as better than -2 when people agree that it is losing for fox despite bayos not utilizing their highly practical and guaranteed death combos with fair 1. i don't think you have too absurd a position in thinking fox slightly wins neutral, though i'd say it's even, but even if he does, i think the oppressive nature of bayo's punish game in the mu makes it difficult for fox.

Okay, I can respect this. I feel Fox's tools are enough to offset the extreme punishes Bayo can get, and SDI will become (more) imperative if WT1 to fairs becomes more common.

I feel like from there, the most threatening confirm listed to look out for is from dtilt - quick, safe, and not beaten by SDI or anything. Looking into some theory then, I can see the fair string being much harder to set up than it is now, given development in the MU.

But, I can agree with everything else.

 

[P!NkN!Nj@]

Adding on to the top 20 character discussion, which characters would be considered top 20 based on matchups alone? I know that many other factors influence a character's tier placement, but it's just an interesting thought (took inspiration from freeziebeatz's top 20 characters based on results in major events).

 

[ARGHETH]

am i just good with dedede or is he not low tier

Uhh, that depends on what the context is. Are you doing well at locals? Because at low-mid level play (which is where most locals are), conventional tier lists aren't really that helpful and it mostly comes down to player skill and MU experience.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Adding on to the top 20 character discussion, which characters would be considered top 20 based on matchups alone? I know that many other factors influence a character's tier placement, but it's just an interesting thought (took inspiration from freeziebeatz's top 20 characters based on results in major events).

Finally, a good time to post this!

Spoiler: Matchup Tier List (Comprehensive MU Chart)

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Finally, a good time to post this!

Spoiler: Matchup Tier List (Comprehensive MU Chart)

Is there data on this list somewhere? Where can I find it?

 

[P!NkN!Nj@]

Finally, a good time to post this!

Spoiler: Matchup Tier List (Comprehensive MU Chart)

It's funny how Yoshi, a character who's "on the drop" is borderline top 20 on the matchup tier list (this is one of many reasons why I believe Yoshi should at least stay where he currently is {29th} on the next tier list). On the other hand, there's Link, a character who is "on the rise" is bottom 20 on the matchup tier list.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Is there data on this list somewhere? Where can I find it?

Brought this up earlier in the thread, but since you asked:

Spoiler: Comprehensive MU Chart (spreadsheet: detail view)

Spoiler: Comprehensive MU Chart (rank data)

 

[TDK]

What exactly in Pac-man's kit doesn't work? (minus grab, which legit has dead zones)

Do you mean he doesn't have a clear game plan?

Outside of grab (Which I've had go through someone only to eat a smash attack so many times), his aerials don't align with his physics. Like, at all. They feel like bad aerials strapped to Rosalina in terms of physics. His aerials still have uses, but they feel like they were meant for a character that moves faster in the air. I also don't feel like he has a clear game plan beyond "Annoy the opponent until they figure out your tricks".

I'd love to learn more about Pac, if you have the time.

 

[ARGHETH]

Brought this up earlier in the thread, but since you asked:

Spoiler: Comprehensive MU Chart (spreadsheet: detail view)

Spoiler: Comprehensive MU Chart (rank data)

After spending a while searching, I found the source. It's based on a compilation of MU charts of pro players, and as such has a bunch of oddities. Lots of the MU charts are also rather old, causing the reddit post (which itself is a month old) to say it's a "general view of the meta from six months ago". Also, quality heavily depends on the amount of MU charts that was able to be found, so for characters like Doc, who only had one, it's reliability is questionable.

And, of course,people tend to overrate their main, leading to stuff like Corrin and Pikachu apparently only having five losing MUs.

 

[Mama Luigi]

i don't think considering results by placements for tier lists is particularly useful. good placements can occur for a variety of reasons, such as good bracket, other people playing poorly, and some players simply being better than others (hence why zero winning lots of tournaments doesn't make diddy the best). granted, i can see a point being made when a character has started to overcome their 'really bad mus' in bracket over and over to achieve high placings. in that situation, you might reevaluate what you think of the character. results are also helpful to evaluate matchups because it can definitely be concerning if a mu thought to swing one way repeatedly swings the other way in practice. pulling out a character for a matchup where they do alright in and winning it doesn't really mean anything for their tier list placement unless that mu is thought to be bad and starts being won consistently.

also is super overrated. i think most of it is because people think his bayonetta mu is only -1 or something nowadays, which is ridiculous. fox does perform decently in neutral, granted, and has reasonable ability to chase some of bayonetta's landings due to his high speed. that said, it's far too easy for fox to just get hit and die. up b fair, utilt fair, side b fair, and dtilt fair are all examples of confirms that can lead to fox's death from as close as mid stage. the reason bayo players aren't winning this mu consistently at the top level is that they haven't practiced or aren't correctly executing fair strings to kill fox. because fox players currently mostly just have to deal with neutral and edgeguarding in many case, the bayo fox mu might only be seen as -1 by some. however, when bayo players stop being lazy and execute their guaranteed death strings, it's just a bad matchup.

fox also has clearly losing matchups against sheik and cloud, two of the top 4. with an at least -2 mu and two -1 mus against the top 4, fox struggles with the characters that are most important to be good against. other losing mus like rosa, pikachu, luigi, ryu, and potentially mario add to fox's list of issues. when it comes down to it, although fox has many good attributes like good pressure, devastating combos, and great ledge trapping, he still has notable flaws and issues in a number of matchups that limit him from being as good as many say.

In that case, I'll do training mode with 3 sheiks, and next 3 clouds. After that, I'll do for glory and murder sheiks and clouds and bayos, then maybe that might just be enough to get fox higher on the tier list and hopefully people don't complain to sakurai to get him nerfed.

 

[TDK]

FE Saga updates:
- Muj has been confirmed
- Tsuna has been confirmed
- Team Japan (YOC , Nojinko , Ke-Ya , and Mr. ii ) have been confirmed

Bringing the total number of FE mains in attendance up to 27 so far. FE Saga is taking place on october 14th-15th, so a little under two weeks from now.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'm excited for Nonjinko because of all his SDI gifs. He even recently tweeted on Twitter asking if everyone was ready for his SDI or if they could do the same (I forgot exactly).

I'm pumped.

 

[|RK|]

I'm excited for Nonjinko because of all his SDI gifs. He even recently tweeted on Twitter asking if everyone was ready for his SDI or if they could do the same (I forgot exactly).

I'm pumped.

I want to see him in a bracket full of Bayos. He's basically inspiration for me to improve my SDI - after all, why wouldn't you work on your defensive options in a game that's so unforgiving?

 

[Krysco]

FE Saga updates:
- Muj has been confirmed
- Tsuna has been confirmed
- Team Japan (YOC , Nojinko , Ke-Ya , and Mr. ii ) have been confirmed

Bringing the total number of FE mains in attendance up to 27 so far. FE Saga is taking place on october 14th-15th, so a little under two weeks from now.

Got a list of how many players use each character? Like how many Marths, Lucinas, Ikes, Robins, Roys and Corrins? May as well count players who use more than one twice like Ke-Ya that you have listed there. Personally interested in how many Robins and Roys there are so far.

 

[TDK]

Got a list of how many players use each character? Like how many Marths, Lucinas, Ikes, Robins, Roys and Corrins? May as well count players who use more than one twice like Ke-Ya that you have listed there. Personally interested in how many Robins and Roys there are so far.

10-11 (Cosmos, Ryuga, Muj, Promaelia, Tsuna, YOC, Ke-Ya, Frozen, Mugi, Rameses, maybe MKLeo)
6 (Dath, Mr. ii, Ke-Ya, Athena, Mad Ice King, Matsudoku)
5 (MKLeo, Mr. E, Pugwest, Plastic Poptart, False)
4 (Ryo, Nojinko, San, Waldo)
3 (Kogarasuma, Mr. E, Plastic Poptart)
2-3 (Captain Levi, Shoghi, maybe Ryo)

There's still six hours yet, and with all the funds in the shop but not all on one player we'll probably see 1+ of these people also come:

Skorpio
VIBE
Earth
Vexx
TheFlow