Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Skeeter Mania]

(I've always wondered how smashers handle school stuff and flying/driving across the country. I guess I just suck at time management )

I'm exactly the same way, lol.

I'm having a hard time managing time with college work and watching big tournaments, but as of recently, I'm putting full focus into my school work while doing my best to ignore the results of GTX until it was over.

 

[ARISTOS]

Tbh, over the weekend, my opinions on the top 20 have shifted to this (loosely ordered):



Going strictly off of characters appearing commonly at top level etc, I don't see any other character deserving of being a top 20.

I feel all have incredibly strong arguments for top 20, but IMO focusing on a top 20 isn't that important. Rather, from about 12-23 you have a host of characters that if the proper conditions are made available they can go on to win big major tournaments.

 

[my_T]

Secondary wins are nice and all but what has DK done at majors as a solo main since Civil War? If DK is high tier then why aren't his results similar to the likes of Peach, Luigi, Corrin, and Falcon who perform rather well solo? Even with HIKARU being in Japan we still have Konga here in the states.

People are too dismissive of MU spreads and focus too heavily on results. He struggles against zoners like Villager, Tink, Duck Hunt, and even B jr. He has awful MU's against Rosa, Sonic, Fox, Tink, and ZSS. Just the other week HIKARU got eliminated by a Yoshi player which also happen to be one of DK's bad MU's.

Point is, there are so many MU's that we don't or rarely see in tournaments that the results of those tournaments can often be misleading. Bracket luck is a thing and should always be taken into consideration.

 

[Lord Dio]

Dying at 50% just screams sheik tbh

Also Scatt has done well to the events he went too but now he's made clear that School>Tournaments which I give props to him for (I've always wondered how smashers handle school stuff and flying/driving across the country. I guess I just suck at time management )

Btw for high tier next tier list?

well, Leo pretty much quit school for now, so if you can't do both only soing one is a good option (if you can afford it)

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

well, Leo pretty much quit school for now, so if you can't do both only soing one is a good option (if you can afford it)

Imagine earning 12,000 dollars at age 16 for playing video games. This scene has come a long way.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Secondary wins are nice and all but what has DK done at majors as a solo main since Civil War?

Plenty, actually.

Konga placed 7th at DHA with wins over Samsora, Deluxemenu, and K9sbruce. He also placed 33rd at EVO with a win on VoiD. He also placed 25th at West Side Saga though with not much in terms of notable wins. His best performance, however, was PAX West, placing 5th out of 12 with wins on MKLeo and ANTi.

As far as HIKARU, although these tournaments aren't majors according to the PGR, I still think they're worth mentioning. He placed 9th at KSB 2017 with a notable win on ikep. He placed 25th at Umebura Japan Major, though not much in the way of notable wins you would care about. He placed 4th at Sumaboto 18, and he won Sumaboto 19 over 9B, with wins over others like Edge.

That's about all I can think of right now.

 

[|RK|]

Secondary wins are nice and all but what has DK done at majors as a solo main since Civil War? If DK is high tier then why aren't his results similar to the likes of Peach, Luigi, Corrin, and Falcon who perform rather well solo? Even with HIKARU being in Japan we still have Konga here in the states.

People are too dismissive of MU spreads and focus too heavily on results. He struggles against zoners like Villager, Tink, Duck Hunt, and even B jr. He has awful MU's against Rosa, Sonic, Fox, Tink, and ZSS. Just the other week HIKARU got eliminated by a Yoshi player which also happen to be one of DK's bad MU's.

Point is, there are so many MU's that we don't or rarely see in tournaments that the results of those tournaments can often be misleading. Bracket luck is a thing and should always be taken into consideration.

It's not even just results or MU spreads, IMO. Utility matters as well. DK is more useful than pretty much every other mid-tier. You can't just look at his MU spread and, say, Toon Link's, say "Toon Link is better" and call it a wrap. DK is more consistently useful, and that should be reflected on a tier list, in addition to results and MU spreads.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

As for MegaMan, there are a ton of players for him. Just stop by their discord and look at the channel where it's filled with matches from their locals, regionals, monthlies, and even tbe big name tournies that this thread talks about.

This can be extended to the rest of the roster too if you check out their servers.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

DK is more consistently useful

How in comparison to Toon Link?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Do you guys think we as players, try to copy top players so much instead of learning to play the game and develop our own style?

I watched this video and read this comment a few days ago, and it popped in my head again so I thought I would share it.

 

[Heracr055]

I like Bowserboy's list. The cutoff for top 20 instead of top 22ish as someone suggested earlier is prob because it's cleaner (that's why people typically insist on a top 5, 10, etc). And I won't disagree about the Fox placement; he's been doing incredible stuff as of late, and his ability to convert to combos and kill setups off almost any hit is really intimidating. I'm intrigued about the MK placement over Corrin, however. And it feels weird seeing that top 20 without Falcon, a char considered top 10 at some point. Lastly, ZSS still continues to be a really volatile char to place.
And do you think there should be a secondary tier list? I imagine Cloud and DK would be at the top in that case

 

[blackghost]

Do you guys think we as players, try to copy top players so much instead of learning to play the game and develop our own style?

I watched this video and read this comment a few days ago, and it popped in my head again so I thought I would share it.

This is so true. And it's true across multiple games as well. Personally I think it's why some games like blaze blue and guilty gear and undernight aren't popular in the us. They require a lot of investment rather than imitation. US players routinely simply copy rather than learn. It leads to hard criticism from peoppe that analyze and a lack of innovation long term.
Only in marvel does the US player base mostly lead the way with tech.

 

[ARISTOS]

Do you guys think we as players, try to copy top players so much instead of learning to play the game and develop our own style?

I watched this video and read this comment a few days ago, and it popped in my head again so I thought I would share it.

I understand the sentiments in the above video, and I agree with the idea in a general sense of players needing to be the one that crafts their gameplan.

However, I don't see the purpose of not using "solved" strategies- if something someone else created works well and is optimal for the situation, I don't see the point in "not" doing it, only that you should probably not stop there.

If there's a solution to a problem, take that solution, but then also look to improve on the solution from there.

 

[my_T]

It's not even just results or MU spreads, IMO. Utility matters as well. DK is more useful than pretty much every other mid-tier. You can't just look at his MU spread and, say, Toon Link's, say "Toon Link is better" and call it a wrap. DK is more consistently useful, and that should be reflected on a tier list, in addition to results and MU spreads.

In what way is DK more useful?

 

[TDK]

And honestly, if ESAM pulls his finger out, I could see Pikachu rising up to around the Ryu, Marth area. Does anyone know what control scheme Captain L was using; I assume bidou? His movement was super slick.

Yeah, Captain L uses Bidou.

In what way is DK more useful?

DK (And Bowser by extension) are probably the best CP characters in the game due to a number of factors:
- They're really easy to use and you don't need to invest much time in them
- Quite possibly the best characters in the game vs Cloud, one of the most common characters
- Can get through most matchups not named Rosalina or Toon Link just due to the sheer power of their advantage states

This makes them easy to pick up and win with, not over a whole set without a decent amount of investment, but enough to clinch that last game a lot.

Also, lastly, T's beaten more Sheiks than you might think. Doesn't he think Bowser is worse for Link than Sheik?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I understand the sentiments in the above video, and I agree with the idea in a general sense of players needing to be the one that crafts their gameplan.

However, I don't see the purpose of not using "solved" strategies- if something someone else created works well and is optimal for the situation, I don't see the point in "not" doing it, only that you should probably not stop there.

If there's a solution to a problem, take that solution, but then also look to improve on the solution from there.

Except situations are almost never solved, only for laughable MUs like DK vs Rosa or something.

also:

If there's a solution to a problem, take that solution, but then also look to improve on the solution from there

If anything, check out the solution and compare it to several other solutions and evaluate which is best consistently. However, take consideration for what other solutions offer and how they branch off from there. Keep all in your repitoire. I like the engineering style you're going with though.

 

[|RK|]

How in comparison to Toon Link?

TDK basically covered it. That's not me saying DK is better than or worse than TL as a character, mind. But he does have a lot of situations where you can just say "yeah, I'll go DK," whereas TL requires more effort and knowledge. Plus, again - having good MUs against one of the most (the most?) common characters in the game (Cloud) that you can play with relatively little time investment? That's useful.

 

[my_T]

DK (And Bowser by extension) are probably the best CP characters in the game due to a number of factors:
- They're really easy to use and you don't need to invest much time in them
- Quite possibly the best characters in the game vs Cloud, one of the most common characters

I more or less agree with everything except for that first statement. However, their simplicity is a double edged sword. It makes them easy to pick but it also makes it easy for the opponent to develop counter play against them. They are probably more dependent on player habits than most characters in the game. Though they do have a few MU's that they are just naturally strong in like their MU's against swordie's and the slow short ranged characters.

- Can get through most matchups not named Rosalina or Toon Link just due to the sheer power of their advantage states

This is just false. Add Sonic, Yoshi, and ZSS to this group as well. All of which are really ****ty MU's for DK and pretty bad for Bowser.

As a matter of fact. You can easily shut down the DK counter pick by going Rosa or ZSS because his MU against these characters are literally that bad. Has everyone already forgotten what ANTi did to Tweeks' DK with his ZSS at GTX. That was painful to watch. ANTi's probably in jail right now for animal cruelty, judge doesn't care if it's just a video game, that's how bad it was smh.

stop overrating this character

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I can't be the only one here...

Does anyone absolutely hate how characters like Luigi, DK, Bowser, and Ryu are balanced? How they have a very simple gameplay and how while the characters are fundamentally flawed, one single move can potentially lead to death?

 

[Lord Dio]

Out of curiosity, do we have pool/top 48 or so predictions for The Big House 7?

 

[|RK|]

I more or less agree with everything except for that first statement. However, their simplicity is a double edged sword. It makes them easy to pick but it also makes it easy for the opponent to develop counter play against them. They are probably more dependent on player habits than most characters in the game. Though they do have a few MU's that they are just naturally strong in like their MU's against swordie's and the slow short ranged characters.



This is just false. Add Sonic, Yoshi, and ZSS to this group as well. All of which are really ****ty MU's for DK and pretty bad for Bowser.

As a matter of fact. You can easily shut down the DK counter pick by going Rosa or ZSS because his MU against these characters are literally that bad. Has everyone already forgotten what ANTi did to Tweeks' DK with his ZSS at GTX. That was painful to watch. ANTi's probably in jail right now for animal cruelty, judge doesn't care if it's just a video game, that's how bad it was smh.

stop overrating this character

ANTi was already beating the Cloud as it was. And ANTi's ZSS is actually very strong, and not at all random.

Yeah, you can always counterpick your opponent's counterpick... but what if you just need one game? What if your opponent doesn't have a Rosa or DK? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it almost sounds like you're coming at this entirely from a solo main perspective, instead of "okay, my opponent took game 2/4 - time to put on the tie."

 

[Kofu]

I can't be the only one here...

Does anyone absolutely hate how characters like Luigi, DK, Bowser, and Ryu are balanced? How they have a very simple gameplay and how while the characters are fundamentally flawed, one single move can potentially lead to death?

Hmm, including Luigi in this group seems a little odd to me. I'm assuming you're referring to Super Jump Punch as a way to seal stocks early? To me that move is closer in design to Rest than anything else: a very powerful, close-ranged option that leaves Luigi open if he misses. The move pulls double duty as a recovery move too (and the weak hit can at least be somewhat useful offstage). Notably, he has very few true setups into SJP (the only one I can think of is tripping DTilt into it). Almost every time it's landed comes from reads.

Luigi is precariously balanced. His grabs no longer get him stocks (usually) but are terrifying damage racking tools. He has what's probably the best CQC in the game restricted by miserable air speed (restricting aerial pressure) and hilariously bad traction (preventing easy shielding approaches. He's meant to be goofy but scary and in his current iteration he does that well.

As a side note I'm fairly certain Cyclone gimps are an unintended use of that move.

DK and Bowser are a trickier case IMO. There's no doubt that the development team is aware of the strength of grab combos/confirms, having given and taken them to and from several characters, and giving them to DK and Bowser was clearly meant to make them better. Time has shown that they succeeded, perhaps a little too well. Their grab confirms have overwhelmingly become the core of their gameplay, almost to the exclusion of other strategies. There might be a bit of bias here but Bowser's confirm in a vacuum seems better balanced than DK's, as it kills later (though he seems to have a noticeably easier time getting grabs thanks to his pivot grab). They both seem a little too strong, though.

I'd like to compare them to grapplers in other fighting games, but I don't have the experience to say. It's sad to see those characters' intangible tilts and decent mobility (especially in DK's case) go to waste just because their grab games are literally that much better.

Ryu doesn't exactly feel like a Smash character, which makes sense because he isn't. In bringing him into Smash the development team was able to retain a decent amount of how he felt from Street Fighter (pretty admirable, IMO). This means they kept a lot of his combo tools. True Shoryuken is, pretty clearly a deliberately overturned (almost broken) move. That he can combo into it on the whole cast is terrifying. And it's not even his only deadly combo finisher!

I'm not sure if Ryu would fit in in previous Smash games, but he fits in well in Smash 4. His potent strengths manage to be held back by his clearly defined, source-mandated weaknesses (he ends up having similar problems to Luigi but for different reasons). While there's not a lot you can do when you get comboed into Shoryuken or NAir to DAired, knowing his setups and how they work goes a long way in avoiding them. He has a lot of upset potential but doesn't have the consistency at top level because he lacks the oppressive neutral of the other top tiers.

I wouldn't mind TSRK getting weakened a little, though.

 

[my_T]

ANTi was already beating the Cloud as it was. And ANTi's ZSS is actually very strong, and not at all random.

Yeah, you can always counterpick your opponent's counterpick... but what if you just need one game? What if your opponent doesn't have a Rosa or DK? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it almost sounds like you're coming at this entirely from a solo main perspective, instead of "okay, my opponent took game 2/4 - time to put on the tie."

Yes ANTi's ZSS is strong and so is Tweeks DK. At the end of the day ZSS still demolished DK.

Even if all you needed was one game and you couldn't counter pick against DK, it still stronglly depends on player habits in a lot of MU's

 

[ぱみゅ]

Out of curiosity, do we have pool/top 48 or so predictions for The Big House 7?

Yes, we got preliminary brackets: https://smash.gg/tournament/the-big-house-7/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/157393/427977

I mostly noticed the repeat of Dabuz vs Raito and Salem vs ESAM, and I wonder why TOs do not attempt to avoid this kind of recent matches.

 

[Lord Dio]

Yes, we got preliminary brackets: https://smash.gg/tournament/the-big-house-7/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/157393/427977

I mostly noticed the repeat of Dabuz vs Raito and Salem vs ESAM, and I wonder why TOs do not attempt to avoid this kind of recent matches.

I also noticed Larry vs Komo.....again.
I'm also eyeing some of these predictions. Particularly the ones in top 8.....

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I'm assuming you're referring to Super Jump Punch as a way to seal stocks early?

I was referring to his grab game.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I also noticed Larry vs Komo.....again.
I'm also eyeing some of these predictions. Particularly the ones in top 8.....

Was Larry vs Komo projected from the beginning? If not then its repeat isn't that much of an issue.
The repeats I mentioned were projected and happened in the Winners Bracket.

 

[TDK]

Out of curiosity, do we have pool/top 48 or so predictions for The Big House 7?

Yeah, actually. It's done EVO style which means this is all hypothetical round 2 pool stuff, again:

Spoiler

Note: 4 people from each of these pools makes it into top 32, two in winners and two in losers. The bracket itself looks like this:

Spoiler

With that out of the way, onto the pools:
L201: Fatality vs Cosmos and ZeRo vs Umeki is the projected winners finals. I find it strange that Umeki is seeded so highly, honestly. I can't tell you the last notable thing he's done internationally, and I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that he'll lose to MattyG in semis, leading to ZeRo vs MattyG for half of this finals. I can't see ZeRo getting upset by either of them or Dragon , but I think Cosmos vs Fatality could go either way, even if Fatality's seeded to come out on top.. Pretty standard. The only other wildcard here is Slenderman , who could upset Tyrant if Tyrant loses to Fatality.

L203: ESAM vs Shoyo James and Salem vs NAKAT is the projected finals here. both of these could honestly go either way. While I doubt James's Diddy could beat ESAM, his Luigi could give him trouble if it's practiced enough, and Salem hasn't fought a top Ness before(?) so there's no telling how that will go. Probably my favourite part of this pool is that there's a tiny chance for a Greninja vs Greninja finals, with both aMSa and Elexiao in here. I don't think it's likely for NAKAT and especially Salem to lose to one, but you never know. Mekos is also in here, but I doubt he'll beat James and he has to fight either NAKAT or Salem to make it out in losers. Definitely a pool of interesting characters, with some of the best frogs, Pikachus, and Lucases all inside here.

L205: Dabuz vs Raito and MKLeo vs Dyr . I would've definitely said Dabuz over Raito before this weekend but Dabuz seems kinda out of it recently. Also he just lost to Raito, but there's no doubt he studied after that. I wish they didn't fight so often though. Leo vs Dyr will probably be pretty one-sided in Leo's favour... if Dyr even makes it there. He's seeded to face Koolaid in semis, and with Pac being a matchup he seems to struggle with (based off of the MU chart I've seen of his plus his loss to Sinji), I'd say it's fairly likely that we might see Koolaid vs Leo instead. There's almost no chance Mystearica beats Dabuz, but for another possible semis upset I could see Blacktwins giving Raito a run for his money. If everything does go according to seeding (Or Raito/Koolaid make it out in winners), we might see vs , a matchup I'd really love to watch.

L207: DarkShad vs Tweek and Abadango vs MVD . DarkShad's going to be coming into TBH7 with a lot of momentum, and if he picks it up from where he left off, I'd say he's pretty likely to beat Tweek. Generally, Aba seems to be able to handle MVD with Bayo, which I think we'll see continue here. I don't think any of the other four people in winners (Light / BestNess / Yura / K9Sbruce ) could upset the four projected ones here, with the best bet probably being MVD vs K9.

M201: VoiD vs Mr. E and Mistake vs Zinoto . Mistake vs Zinoto at face value looks to be fairly even, and while I'd favour mistake slightly there's no real telling who comes up on top. VoiD vs Mr. E seems more straightforward, and VoiD will probably fight the winner of the other two in top 32. The biggest chance for a true upset here is probably in Mistake vs Nom in semis, with Nom having a win over Captain Zack and generalyl being pretty solid. This is also the pool full of lower tier heroes, with a good (Daybreak), (Raffi-X), and even (Komota in losers) in here. Daybreak unfortunately fights VoiD, but Raffi vs Mr. E looks to be more even.

M203: Javi vs Larry Lurr and tyroy vs Komorikiri . I'm of the opinion that Javi is a very underrated player, and I'd give him avery good shot to take out Larry, especially sinc he fights Xzax right before, which could warm him up for Fox. Komo'll probably beat Tyroy easily, but Tyroy could suprise me. I also think Pugwest could upset Tyroy in semis, but that'd be a pretty entertaining set to watch. Not much else of note here.

M205: Captain Zack vs ANTi and Nairo vs Locus . I'm really curious about Nairo vs Locus. No doubt Nairo will have studied that matchup after losing to DarkShad at GTX, and he's already lost to Locus at civil war. I'd bet on Nairo here but it's a very real possibility for Locus to come out on top. ANTi vs Zack also looks to be really fun, and if all four of these people make it here this is going to be glorious. I think the biggest chance of an upset lies in Zack vs Sinji in semis. After SSC(?) Sinji seemed really confident in the Pac-Bayo matchup and I really doubt Zack has all that much Pac-Man experience. if everything goes according to seeding, we'd be seeing Locus vs Sinji and Zack vs Ryuga losers finals, both of which could have really high upset potential. Keep an eye on this one.

M207: Ned vs Mr. R and Marss vs Ally here. Mr. R will probably mop the floor with Ned, but Ally vs Marss looks much more even and I can't really declare a winner just from looking at it. Unfortunately, nobody else on winners side looks like they'll manage an upset (but who knows?), with the closest probably being 8BitMan vs Ned.

'd but these things take a while to write up. Enjoy.

 

[Lord Dio]

Was Larry vs Komo projected from the beginning? If not then its repeat isn't that much of an issue.
The repeats I mentioned were projected and happened in the Winners Bracket.

It's projected on smash.gg. This is projected to be a Winners side fight, while the one last week was on Loser's side.

M205 is definitely interesting considering the Edwin/Salem fight that was last hit last game at SSC, if edwin can do that well vs salem Sinji vs Zack should be interesting.

 

[Yonder]

I was referring to his grab game.

This kind of poses and interesting question: if you could choose as a character, would you rather have an explosive damage racking grab game like Luigi, or a straight up mutilating kill confirm like DK/Bowser? Let's use WFT and her kit as an example cause she has none. Which one would she benefit better from? 50-70 off a grab, then finding her kill move, or having a grab that leads into like 15% at most but sets up guaranteed into a powerful attack at 70-80?

I'm going with kill confirm, only cause it gives the opponent a chance to get jank with the rage they may accumulate if your character struggles to kill. Then again someone like Ganondorf would probably appreciate a damage racking grab game like Luigi's as he has no shortage of kill power.

 

[Kofu]

I was referring to his grab game.

Gotcha. Well, I mentioned that Luigi doesn't have any kill confirms off of a grab so as strong as his grab combos are I don't feel they're necessarily bad game design.

Actually, in terms of pure damage, other characters can more or less match Luigi's output from a grab (I've gotten over 50% from a single grab as Game & Watch multiple times). What makes Luigi's grab especially scary is how he can keep you close to him as he racks up damage, setting up for another grab or something else. He also has his other throws to kill at high percents.

On the topic of Luigi's grab game, is Elegant just really good at reading DI or do top players not properly understand how to get out of Luigi's combos? (Another option, are the Luigis I play not optimizing their combos right?)

 

[Lord Dio]

This kind of poses and interesting question: if you could choose as a character, would you rather have an explosive damage racking grab game like Luigi, or a straight up mutilating kill confirm like DK/Bowser? Let's use WFT and her kit as an example cause she has none. Which one would she benefit better from? 50-70 off a grab, then finding her kill move, or having a grab that leads into like 15% at most but sets up guaranteed into a powerful attack at 70-80?

I'm going with kill confirm, only cause it gives the opponent a chance to get jank with the rage they may accumulate if your character struggles to kill. Then again someone like Ganondorf would probably appreciate a damage racking grab game like Luigi's as he has no shortage of kill power.

Depends on the character. WFT really doesn't have fast, reliable kill moves. As you said, Ganon would benefit from a luigi grab game due to his strength and kill power (though a kill confirm would also be nice ahem melee ganon dthrow to bair ahem).
Thing is though that some characters (Robin, Palutena, ROB) have kill confirms, but have a difficult time getting the grab or move needed to activate the confirm. IMO, a good grab combo game would be much better for those guys because while they still have to fish for a kill move, they can go for different moves, and for them gettign high percent off a grab is better than a confirm.

 

[Yonder]

Gotcha. Well, I mentioned that Luigi doesn't have any kill confirms off of a grab so as strong as his grab combos are I don't feel they're necessarily bad game design.

Actually, in terms of pure damage, other characters can more or less match Luigi's output from a grab (I've gotten over 50% from a single grab as Game & Watch multiple times). What makes Luigi's grab especially scary is how he can keep you close to him as he racks up damage, setting up for another grab or something else. He also has his other throws to kill at high percents.

On the topic of Luigi's grab game, is Elegant just really good at reading DI or do top players not properly understand how to get out of Luigi's combos? (Another option, are the Luigis I play not optimizing their combos right?)

I noticed MKLeo started to footstool Luigi to get out of D throw combos as he adapted more which was interesting. It was quite incredible how Elegant kept chaining Dair spike to like 3 of them in a row. Works best on tall guys like Cloud.

 

[Kofu]

I noticed MKLeo started to footstool Luigi to get out of D throw combos as he adapted more which was interesting. It was quite incredible how Elegant kept chaining Dair spike to like 3 of them in a row. Works best on tall guys like Cloud.

TBH it was those kinds of combos that seemed really strange to me. Maybe it's because I play such a light character that I can escape relatively easily? I dunno.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

This kind of poses and interesting question: if you could choose as a character, would you rather have an explosive damage racking grab game like Luigi, or a straight up mutilating kill confirm like DK/Bowser? Let's use WFT and her kit as an example cause she has none. Which one would she benefit better from? 50-70 off a grab, then finding her kill move, or having a grab that leads into like 15% at most but sets up guaranteed into a powerful attack at 70-80?

I'm going with kill confirm, only cause it gives the opponent a chance to get jank with the rage they may accumulate if your character struggles to kill. Then again someone like Ganondorf would probably appreciate a damage racking grab game like Luigi's as he has no shortage of kill power.

I saw this and my zard bias said 'hey, wait a minute...' would zard also benefit from one or the other? If he had a guaranteed 50-70% off a grab he'd be top-tier easy because he could then set up into his plethora of kill options. Who agrees with me on this?

 

[Bowserboy3]

I will just say that that little list I posted was just my opinion, and in no way factual; I'm glad people saw it that way though (sometimes you have to be so careful here because somebody might take it as fact), and that it sparked some decent discussion.

I think having solid counterpick/supporting potential means a big deal. Like, yeah, characters like Mega Man and Olimar do have decent solo results compared to Bowser, and to a lesser extent, DK (IIRC Tweek has indeed gone solo DK at some events smaller events and either won or got a top spot), but we rarely see them reach those top spots at tournaments. They do generally well (Olimar it would seem more than Mega Man), but we still don't see it all that often. Bowser and DK have now consistently assisted at the top end of tournaments, on many occasions. I think this is notable because not only is it showing the characters can perform at the top of top level, but also keep up with (in almost every case) the best characters in the game. That speaks volumes about the characters IMO.

Plus, when was the last time we saw a player counterpick to Mega Man or Olimar (as examples again) to help win a set, or even take games? Dabuz rarely goes Olimar anymore these days, which is interesting in it's own right.

---

Anyway, on Luigi's combo game, there is generally little you can do to escape them. Leo was doing well to footstool out of them, but even then you'd have to DI the correct way. Failing that you just have to try and DI to throw the Luigi off. Certain characters (depending on weight and fall speed) can be re-grabbed after a Dthrow -> Up Smash at 0%, otherwise Luigi has to use his other moves to attempt the re-grab. He has options to cover most characters, but is harder the lighter they get.

And I did notice that somebody mentioned that light characters would get out of some combos better. This is true for any character, indeed.

However, remember that they are also lighter and have less survivability. If Luigi can only do 0-50% on G&W for example, but 0-85% on Cloud, it's still near enough the same thing in effect. Cloud might die to an Up Smash at 130%, but G&W will die to Up Smash at around 100%.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

This kind of poses and interesting question: if you could choose as a character, would you rather have an explosive damage racking grab game like Luigi, or a straight up mutilating kill confirm like DK/Bowser

I play Lucas so I have both. To answer your question, I would prefer a grab game over a kill confirm since having a percent lead would allow me to control the pace of the match.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Some fun facts I found out today.

• Samus has the 2nd best dash to shield (at 9 frames). Very useful for a character with a dash attack as good as hers.
  
  
• Samus also has the 2nd best ledge getup (frame data wise), but also the worst ledge attack (again, frame data wise). In terms of ledge getup, this depends on whether you consider the FAF better or worse. For example, her getup is: intangible 1-31, FAF 33. At the other end of the spectrum, Mii Gunner's is: intangible 1-43, FAF 45. I know some people that would argue that the increased intangibility is nice, but IMO, the quicker the option, the harder it is to react to. If I am aiming to tipper Fsmash an opponent's standard getup with Marth for example, it's easier to react to vs Mii Gunner than Samus because Gunner's animation is longer.

• Bayonetta has the worst ledge roll (frame data wise). Average frame data for a ledge roll is: intangible 1-27, FAF 50. Bayonetta's is: intangible 1-21, FAF 50, shared with Yoshi. Funnily enough, Dedede's is the best, at 1-33, FAF 50, shared with Sheik (like she needed this lol).

Sometimes I just sit and look at data like this. It's fun; you find out some interesting stuff. I advise everybody to do this every so often.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Bayonetta's is: intangible 1-21, FAF 50, shared with Yoshi

No wonder I never roll off the ledge as Yoshi.

 

[Illuminose]

tier lists are fully about solo viability. ranking by 'effectiveness as a secondary' is pointless because effectiveness as a secondary doesn't necessarily have to do with how good your character is. dk and bowser lose all of the top tier matchups they are commonly counterpicked in (sheik and cloud, for example). the fact that they can be used to take a game or 2 in top level sets or sometimes beat a top player who plays the mu poorly does not make them better. their 'effectiveness' basically stems from ease of use, which is not a valid metric to measure how good a character is. there are more than a few characters that do as well or better in the mus dk/bowser are commonly picked for; they just aren't seen because those characters are not as easy to use.