Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[|RK|]

Some fun facts I found out today.

• Samus has the 2nd best dash to shield (at 9 frames). Very useful for a character with a dash attack as good as hers.
  
  
• Samus also has the 2nd best ledge getup (frame data wise), but also the worst ledge attack (again, frame data wise). In terms of ledge getup, this depends on whether you consider the FAF better or worse. For example, her getup is: intangible 1-31, FAF 33. At the other end of the spectrum, Mii Gunner's is: intangible 1-43, FAF 45. I know some people that would argue that the increased intangibility is nice, but IMO, the quicker the option, the harder it is to react to. If I am aiming to tipper Fsmash an opponent's standard getup with Marth for example, it's easier to react to vs Mii Gunner than Samus because Gunner's animation is longer.

• Bayonetta has the worst ledge roll (frame data wise). Average frame data for a ledge roll is: intangible 1-27, FAF 50. Bayonetta's is: intangible 1-21, FAF 50, shared with Yoshi. Funnily enough, Dedede's is the best, at 1-33, FAF 50, shared with Sheik (like she needed this lol).

Sometimes I just sit and look at data like this. It's fun; you find out some interesting stuff. I advise everybody to do this every so often.

Captain Falcon's is surprisingly bad. So why do Falcon players abuse ledge roll, while DDD players don't? Is there a missing attribute, like how far a roll goes?

 

[Lord Dio]

Captain Falcon's is surprisingly bad. So why do Falcon players abuse ledge roll, while DDD players don't? Is there a missing attribute, like how far a roll goes?

hurtbox size maybe???

 

[BSP]

I can't be the only one here...

Does anyone absolutely hate how characters like Luigi, DK, Bowser, and Ryu are balanced? How they have a very simple gameplay and how while the characters are fundamentally flawed, one single move can potentially lead to death?

Luigi might be my second least favorite character to fight/watch play, right behind Bayo. He's balanced I guess but his gameplan isn't enjoyable for me at all. DK and Bowser aren't that far beyond, but at least they don't have Luigi's frame data.

This kind of poses and interesting question: if you could choose as a character, would you rather have an explosive damage racking grab game like Luigi, or a straight up mutilating kill confirm like DK/Bowser? Let's use WFT and her kit as an example cause she has none. Which one would she benefit better from? 50-70 off a grab, then finding her kill move, or having a grab that leads into like 15% at most but sets up guaranteed into a powerful attack at 70-80?

I'm going with kill confirm, only cause it gives the opponent a chance to get jank with the rage they may accumulate if your character struggles to kill. Then again someone like Ganondorf would probably appreciate a damage racking grab game like Luigi's as he has no shortage of kill power.

The kill confirm. We've seen people go from 0->80% ish plenty of times, only then for the initiator of that combo to get walled out by stray hits and juggles that do between 10% and 25%ish each and ultimately die first. It's why I think DK's grab game is better than Luigi's. Luigi gets more explosive damage on people, but DK's first 2 grabs mean the next one kills you.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

tier lists are fully about solo viability. ranking by 'effectiveness as a secondary' is pointless because effectiveness as a secondary doesn't necessarily have to do with how good your character is. dk and bowser lose all of the top tier matchups they are commonly counterpicked in (sheik and cloud, for example). the fact that they can be used to take a game or 2 in top level sets or sometimes beat a top player who plays the mu poorly does not make them better. their 'effectiveness' basically stems from ease of use, which is not a valid metric to measure how good a character is. there are more than a few characters that do as well or better in the mus dk/bowser are commonly picked for; they just aren't seen because those characters are not as easy to use.

Even if it was a solo viability list, I think DK would still be in the 21-28 range.

 

[TurboLink]

EDIT: Good thing Sakurai messed up because otherwise the franchise would have immediately died. S4 for GC sounds distasteful af

People actually think this? Smash Bros. would just continue to exist as the casual party game it was meant to be. Don't tell me you think Smash Bros. only sales because of its competitive value?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Captain Falcon's is surprisingly bad. So why do Falcon players abuse ledge roll, while DDD players don't? Is there a missing attribute, like how far a roll goes?

Hurtbox size and options afterwards is probably why, D3 has a large horizontal hurtbox since he's so large much larger then Falcons. After the roll Falcon is fast enough so if he needs to run or jump away he can do so or throw out a Jab afterwards compared D3 who is slow in the air and ground and doesn't have a quick move to throw out. Much easier to punish him after he rolls compared to Falcon, that would be my guess.

 

[R3D3MON]

People actually think this? Smash Bros. would just continue to exist as the casual party game it was meant to be. Don't tell me you think Smash Bros. only sales because of its competitive value?

Yea, of course people still think this. Did you really think otherwise? I like super smash bros. competitively more than casually. Is that a problem???

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Yea, of course people still think this. Did you really think otherwise? I like super smash bros. competitively more than casually. Is that a problem???

Your opinions don’t define the entire fans of the franchise. This is still a game that consisted of characters from across Nintendo, something which appeals to the fans. People still play this game casually mate. The whole community doesn’t play competitive. Brawl would of likely still happened if competitive Melee never existed, and the same with Smash 4

 

[Das Koopa]

Unfortunately it seems like execution is what a lot of the Melee players prefer even though half of the execution is from a glitch that wasn't fixed (wavedashing) because and this is the quote "The programmers spotted it and didn't think it was a big deal", I think the reason most melee people don't like sm4sh is because they can't carry over their skills from one version to the next, pros like Hungrybox for example.

late drop in with this info but

Wavedashing is a movement component of Melee, but this is a consistent pre-Brawl/post-Brawl era argument I saw a lot of on GameFAQs in 2007-2008 (+>Onwards, less so today) that bothered me.

• It's not "half" of the execution. The bulk of execution in terms of tech skill is probably L-Cancelling unless you're playing a character like Luigi.
• In general, a lot of tech will be dependent on your character, with fast falling/l cancelling/short hopping/wavedashing inputs being some of the more important ones across the cast.
• Note that tech skill discovered has literally resulted in hard memory card fixes because the Gamecube controller is terrible and certain controllers (%5>) have all the desired traits required to perform certain tech skills, or require modding via notches.
• Hungrybox is a really weird example to bring up in tandem with tech skill because Jigglypuff has a very low tech skill ceiling in Melee. I'm pretty sure HBox would be top 5 free in Smash 4 if he put as much time into Smash 4 as he does Melee, but the latter is what he's built himself into over the years so he's stuck to it.
• The reason they don't like Smash 4 as much is because the engine constricts movement far more than Melee's does. Melee allows for a more flashy combo game and has a much high demand for technical input. This isn't the only aspect of the game (note the "he can multishine 40 times but he can't consistently wavedash" jokes targeted at newer players who don't practice fundamentals enough) but it's a defining trait that makes Melee unique from Smash 4, hence it has its own crowd.

Wavedashing is not the end-all-be-all tech skill. You are not better simply by being able to wavedash because, like perfect pivoting or other movement techs, you have to know when/how to use it in a specific situation in order for it to be of any use at all. You need to have a grasp of neutral to know how to use it. Compare something like L-Cancelling where it is outright required to use because your frames improve based on that input, meaning you're able to follow up significantly faster.

I don't really like comparing the game's players/mechanics in terms of consistency. Things fall apart very quickly when you stop being insular and bring in the general FGC where consistency issues and top player upsets are far, far more common than they are in Melee: Melee and (Project M, and arguably 64) are pretty exceptional in their lack of upsets at the top level.

 

[R3D3MON]

Your opinions don’t define the entire fans of the franchise. This is still a game that consisted of characters from across Nintendo, something which appeals to the fans. People still play this game casually mate. The whole community doesn’t play competitive. Brawl would of likely still happened if competitive Melee never existed, and the same with Smash 4

Of course this is true, but I was never arguing this in the first place. Stop grappling on a strawman.

 

[Krysco]

I'm guessing what R3D3MON is saying is that the series would have died competitively if it weren't for Melee and its tech? The amount of movement options and moves overall at any given point along with just enough viable characters that kept people from getting sick of the game. I mean, when Brawl came out, I'm sure damn near every Melee player went over to it, expecting it to be like Melee and when it wasn't, most of them just went back. If there was no Melee, there'd just be the small 64 scene if it would even be looked at competitively, the slow Brawl scene and the Sm4sh scene which is inbetween Melee and Brawl in terms of movement/speed (PM wouldn't exist since it wouldn't have Melee to be based off of). The high amount of movement options and high skill ceiling, namely for Melee Fox and Falco wouldn't exist and so Smash would largely just be a casual party game rather than something that gets into the likes of EVO.

I'm just guessing that's what R3D3MON is getting at, could be wrong and I'm not sure I entirely agree anyways. With any game where players can compete, if it sells well, people will want to compete with as many people as possible and get as good as they can. I can however imagine that the competitive scene wouldn't be as big especially if Brawl was the next game to follow after 64 with all of its issues. Melee was the game that put the series into any sort of competitive limelight and the series has had over 15 years from then to grow competitively overall.

---

On a note more related to Sm4sh, with me bringing up Robin earlier, albeit hardly and with FE Saga coming up, I may as well show this off (warning: the spoiler inside is huge):

What moves would Robin suddenly be able to punish with Levin aerials if he had a frame 5 jumpsquat? Let's take a look:

Spoiler: Moves that would become punishable

I will be showing the moves safety on shield (source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/htmlview#)
If a move has a -17 or -18 next to it then it was already punishable by nair, bair and uair but now becomes punishable by fair.
If a move has a -15 or -16 next to it then it was already punishable by nair and bair but becomes punishable by uair
And finally, if a move has a -14 or -15 next to it then it becomes punishable by nair and bair.

Spoiler

Heel Slide Kick held -18
Jab 1 -14
Ftilt 1 -15
Dtilt -14
Utilt -15

Spoiler

Dtilt -25/-17 first value is for the first hit, second is for the second hit
Uair -18
Nair -15
Fair -15

Spoiler

Cannon -25/-18 first value is no charge, second is full charge
Bair -14

Spoiler

Dtilt -16
Usmash -24/-21/-15/-14 values are first kicks sourspot, first kicks sweetspot, second kicks sourspot and second kicks sweetspot
Fair -17/-27 first value is the sweetspot, second is the sourspot
Ftilt -15
Utilt -14

Spoiler

Jab 2 -16
Utilt -18
Jab 1 -15
Dtilt -14

Spoiler

Ftilt -18
Dsmash -37/-18 first value is first hit, second is second hit
Dair -16/-20 first value is for the spike hitbox, second is for the weak hit
Limit Cross Slash (!) -15

Spoiler

Ftilt -18

Spoiler

Jab 1 -18
Fair -18/-16 site never specified values. Assuming first is the initial multihits and the second is the stronger finishing hit
Dair -17

Spoiler

Gordo Toss -27/-16/-24 first value is just the hammer hitting, second is just the Gordo hitting, third is both hitting at the same time

Spoiler

Dash attack -18
Uair -16

Spoiler

Jab 1 -15

Spoiler

Jab 1 -17
Dtilt -17
Utilt -18
Fair -17/-20 first value is the strong hit on frame 17, second is the weak hit
Dair -18
Super Sheet -17

Spoiler

Jab 1 -18
Ftilt -17
Bair -15/-17/-16 first value is the sour spot, second is the sweetspot, third is the late hit
Uair -15/-13 first value is the first and second hit, second value is the third hit
Trick Shot -15

Spoiler

Jab 1 -17
Dair -14/-17 first value is the spike hitbox, second is the weak hit
Ftilt -14
Fair -14

Spoiler

Jab 2 -16
Utilt (!) -17
Uair -18/-14 site doesn't specify but assuming the first value is the first, weaker hit and the second is the second, stronger hit
Dtilt -14
Dair -14

Spoiler

Dtilt -16
Dash attack -17
Dsmash -43/-18 first value is the first kick, second is the second kick
Jab -15/-14 second value is for the tipper, first is for the rest of it

Spoiler

Jab 2 -16
Ftilt -16
Dash attack -17
Water Shuriken -17
Jab 1 -15
Dtilt -15

Spoiler

Jab 1 -16
Dtilt -15

Spoiler

no additional moves become punishable by aerials

Spoiler

Ftilt -16
Dash attack -14

Spoiler

Jab 1 -17
Bow full charge -16

Spoiler

Jab 1 -17
Jab 2 -17
Utilt -18
Fsmash neutral and up -16
Dsmash -23/-16 first value is for first hit, second is for second hit
Fair -18
Uair -18

Spoiler

Fsmash (135% - 155%) -18
Fsmash (156% - 177%) -17
Fsmash (178%+) -16
Uair (0 - 32%) -16
Uair (33 - 69%) -15
Uair (70 - 101%) -14
Aura Sphere full charge (157 - 176%) -18
Aura Sphere full charge (177 - 186%) -17
Aura Sphere full charge (187%+) -16
Force Palm sweetspot (130 - 158%) -17
Force Palm sweetspot (159 - 172%) -16
Force Palm sweetspot (173%+) -14
Fair (0 - 69%) -14

Spoiler

Dash attack -16
Dair -17
Jab 1 -14
PK Freeze -14/-5 first value is uncharged, second is full charge

Spoiler

Jab 1 -17
Ftilt -17
Dair -15

Spoiler

Fair -16
Fireball -16
Dtilt -15
Dair -13/-14 first value is early hit, second is late hit

Spoiler

Jab 1 -16
Jab 2 -17
Dtilt -18
Fair -16/-18 second value is for the early weak hit, first is presumably for the spike hit. Site does not specify
Cape -17

Spoiler

All values are non tipper first, then tipper
Jab 1 -17/-16
Ftilt -18/-17
Dair -16/-14

Spoiler

Ftilt 1 -16
Bair -16/-14 first value is first 2 hits, second is third hit
Dair -17
Uair -16
Fair -14/-13 first value is first 2 hits, second is third hit

Spoiler

Bair -17/-16 site has it listed as First/second/third hit so the second hit is either -17 or -16
Metal Blade -14

Spoiler

Ftilt -18/-19 second value is for the tipper
Utilt -17
Shadow Ball -18/-2 first value is uncharged, second is full charge
Jab 1 -14

Spoiler

Default height and width
Ftilt -15
Dtilt -14

Spoiler

Default height and width
Jab 1 -17
Jab 2 -18
Dair -18/-21 first value is the spike hit, second is the weak hit
Uair -20/-18 first value is multihits, second is final hit
Charge Blast -29/-14 first value is uncharged, second is full charge
Stealth Burst -16/-14 first value is uncharged, second is full charge
Super Missile -14

Spoiler

Default height and width
Utilt -18
Dair -18
Ftilt -15

Spoiler

Jab ender -18
Dsmash -17/-16 first value is close hit, second is far hit
Dair -18
Fsmash -15/-13 first value is close hit, second is far hit
Judge 9 -14

Spoiler

Utilt -18/-20 first value is strong hit, second is weak hit
Fair -18/-16 first value is multihit, second is final hit

Spoiler

Dtilt -18
Dsmash early blue Pikmin -14
Dsmash early white Pikmin -16
Fsmash early white Pikmin -14
Dsmash late white Pikmin -14

Spoiler

Dtilt -16
Bair -15/-16 Site does not specify, assuming first value is early hit, second is late hit
Dair -18/-15 first value is first 3 hits, second is fourth hit
Bonus Fruit Melon -18
Bonus Fruit Galaga -18
Bonus Fruit Key -16
Jab 2 -14

Spoiler

Nair -18/-16 Site does not specify, assuming first value is all but the final hit while second is said final hit
Auto-Reticle -17
Jab 1 -14

Spoiler

Fsmash -21/-20/-18 first value is tennis racket, second is golf club, third is frying pan
Dash attack -15

Spoiler

Jab -17
Ftilt -16/-17 first value is angled high, second is no angle or angled low
Fsmash -23/-18/-21 first value is early hit, second is late strong hit on f18, third is late weak hit on f21
Nair -18/-19 first value is early hit, second is late hit
Utilt -15

Spoiler

Uair -20/-18 Site does not specify, assuming first value is multihits, second is final hit
Robo Beam uncharged -18
Gyro dash thrown -17
Jab 1 -14
Jab 2 -14
Bair -14

Spoiler

Ftilt -17
Levin Dair -18
Sword dash thrown -17
Thoron (not held) -17
Thunder -15
Elthunder -15
Tome dash thrown -15

Spoiler

Values are for Rosalina unless otherwise stated
Jab 2 -16
Jab 3 Luma -16
Dsmash -29/-17 first value is first hit, second is second hit
Fair -18/-17 Site does not specify, assuming first value is multi hits, second is final hit
Luma Shot -24/-16 first value is uncharged, second is full charge
Star Bits -17
Dtilt Luma -14
Dair -14/-15 first value is spike hitbox, second is for late hit

Spoiler

Ftilt -17/-14 first value is tipper, second is base
Flare Blade -16 Site does not specify individual values for charges

Spoiler

Strong Jab -16
Fsmash -18/-17 first value is for sourspot, second is for sweetspot
Strong Ftilt -14
Strong Dtilt -15

Spoiler

Jab 2 -17
Ftilt -18/-19 first value is sweetspot, second is sourspot
Dash attack -18/-16/-14 first value is early hit, second is strong hit on f10, third is late hit on f14
Utilt -15

Spoiler

Fsmash -18
Uair -19/-17 Site does not specify, assuming first value is all but last hit while second value is said last hit
Ftilt (!) -15

Spoiler

Vanilla/Buster Jab 1 -16
Speed/Shield/Smash Jab 1 -17
Vanilla Dtilt -14/-15 first value is for the blade hitbox, second is for beam hitbox
Speed Dtilt -15/-16
Shield Dtilt -16
Smash Dtilt -17
Vanilla Dair -18/-15 first value is first hit, second is second hit
Speed Dair -19/-16
Shield Dair -19/-17
Buster Dair -17/-12
Smash Dair -20/-18
Speed Bair -12/-14 first value is blade hitbox, second is beam hitbox
Smash Bair -14/-15

Spoiler

Jab 2 -16
Dtilt -16
Utilt -16
Uair -18/-16 first value is first hit, second is second hit

Spoiler

Ftilt -17
Dtilt -18
Hero's Bow -14/-9 first value is uncharged, second is full charge

Spoiler

Jab 2 -17
Dtilt -16
Jab 1 -15
Usmash -15
Fair -12/-14 first value is early hit, second is late hit
Bair -11/-14

Spoiler

Ftilt -18
Utilt -16
Dair -17/-15 Site does not specify, assuming first value is all but final hit while second is said final hit

Spoiler

Jab 1 -18/-17 first value is for front hit, second is for back hit
Sun Salutation full charge -17
Bair -12/-15 first value is early hit, second is late hit
Dair -11/-14 first value is early hit, second is late hit

Spoiler

Utilt -17
Bair -16/-15 first value is first 2 hits, third value is third hit

Spoiler

Utilt -16
Fsmash -16
Dsmash -25/-17 first value is first hit, second value is second hit
Nair -16/-15 first value is multihits, second is final hit
Dtilt -14
Dair -7/-14 first value is sweetspot, second value is sourspot
Din's Fire uncharged -12/-15 first value is sweetspot, second is sourspot

Spoiler

Jab 1 -17
Ftilt -16
Plasma Whip -17
Dsmash -14

If a move was not listed then it is either always punishable by aerials, never is or wasn't given a block value on the site. For aerials, I'm assuming the values are for if the character lands immediately after the hitbox connects or autocancelled. While making this post, I wrote down every move that isn't safe on Robin's shield from Levin aerials both with his current jumpsquat and as shown above, ones that wouldn't be safe if he had a frame 5 jumpsquat so if anyone is curious about a move being punishable by Levin aerials or not, I can post the entire list in another spoiler. If there's any questions, I'll try to answer them as best I can and if I've messed up at all then by all means, let me know so I can correct it.

I had free time last week to make this, posted it in the Robin boards. Shows off what Robin could punish with Levin aerials if he had a frame 5 jumpsquat.

 

[ぱみゅ]

tier lists are fully about solo viability. ranking by 'effectiveness as a secondary' is pointless because effectiveness as a secondary doesn't necessarily have to do with how good your character is. dk and bowser lose all of the top tier matchups they are commonly counterpicked in (sheik and cloud, for example). the fact that they can be used to take a game or 2 in top level sets or sometimes beat a top player who plays the mu poorly does not make them better. their 'effectiveness' basically stems from ease of use, which is not a valid metric to measure how good a character is. there are more than a few characters that do as well or better in the mus dk/bowser are commonly picked for; they just aren't seen because those characters are not as easy to use.

If Jigglypuff had a secret tech that for some reason only works on Cloud, Diddy and Bayo making her effectively counter them, but still loses any other matchup, would Jigglypuff be Top Tier?
Let that one sink a moment.

 

[Lord Dio]

If Jigglypuff had a secret tech that for some reason only works on Cloud, Diddy and Bayo making her effectively counter them, but still loses any other matchup, would Jigglypuff be Top Tier?
Let that one sink a moment.

No, just a hard CP. Jiggs wouldn't even rise out of bottom five because she has a tech that only works on three people, and counterplay would be developed.

 

[ぱみゅ]

No, just a hard CP. Jiggs wouldn't even rise out of bottom five because she has a tech that only works on three people, and counterplay would be developed.

BINGO
That's my opinion about DK and/or Bowser being called "good because they have a CP value".

 

[R3D3MON]

Snip

Yep, you summarized my main point nicely. It's also important to note that melee has so many variety of both universal techs and character specific techs that every character can benefit from that are not just specific to the spacies (Pikachu edge cancels :O, Bowser side-b mixups, Donkey Kong cargo up-throw combo options, Yoshi entirely, etc.), which gives even more incentive for people to perfect their skills in the game.

In fact, IIRC in one episode of the Scar and Toph show Scar stated that he was so initially desperate to get Brawl so he and bunch of other melee vets hacked their Wii with the ISO of Japanese Brawl for an unofficial "early access", only to find the game rather demoralizing with the removal of core movement techs like wavedashing and dash dancing (due to tripping) especially, among other aspects.

 

[Rizen]

Fat grapplers 4 borderline tier.

Luigi has a vortex thing like Fox. But it's more than just his combos; his frame data is phenomenal. Luigi's CQC can match top tier characters'. He's better than DK imo.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Fat grapplers 4 borderline tier.

Luigi has a vortex thing like Fox. But it's more than just his combos; his frame data is phenomenal. Luigi's CQC can match top tier characters'. He's better than DK imo.

It doesn't just match top tiers, Luigi's CQC is arguably the best in the game. Only characters that I think can match it are Ryu, Fox, Sheik, ZSS, and maybe Little Mac. Other than that who can actually claim to be decent at fighting Luigi up close?

 

[Lord Dio]

Fat grapplers 4 borderline tier.

Luigi has a vortex thing like Fox. But it's more than just his combos; his frame data is phenomenal. Luigi's CQC can match top tier characters'. He's better than DK imo.

So instead of the Fox Vortex, he has the Negative Zone? XD

It doesn't just match top tiers, Luigi's CQC is arguably the best in the game. Only characters that I think can match it are Ryu, Fox, Sheik, ZSS, and maybe Little Mac. Other than that who can actually claim to be decent at fighting Luigi up close?

imo, roy.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I know Lucas and Ness can get around Luigi's fireball wall cover, by using PSI Magnet. If they cancel it, they can either punish Luigi's approach from behind the fireball if he runs in carelessly with an aerial approach of their own or an up smash. If they are close enough he can be damaged while in Fireball endlag.

If they are too far to punish, the Fireball can allow Ness and Lucas to close the gap between the two fighters.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

So instead of the Fox Vortex, he has the Negative Zone? XD

imo, roy.

i feel like with Roy you should try to abuse your range against Luigi instead of trying to fight him up close, Roy is a fast faller and we've all seen what Luigi can do to fast fallers in a matter of seconds

 

[|RK|]

BINGO
That's my opinion about DK and/or Bowser being called "good because they have a CP value".

I disagree.

You would see her significantly more often in top 8's thus improving her results.

And since we've already established that results are at least part of what makes a good tier list, she would also move up the tier list.

Maybe not a lot, but at least a little. Same phenomenon for DK/Bowser.

And getting into the weeds a little more - you would additionally see her meta develop a little faster than it would have originally. Thus further improving her results.

 

[Mama Luigi]

Official Smash Wii U Backroom List V3 (Wii U Version 1.1.6)

-TOP-
S:
A:
-HIGH-
B:
-MID-
C: ()
D:
-LOW-
E:
F: [][]

Text Version

-TOP-
S: Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik
A: Sonic, Mario, Fox, Rosalina & Luma, Mewtwo, Marth, Zero Suit Samus, Ryu
-HIGH-
B: Corrin, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Mega Man, Villager, Lucina, Lucario, Toon Link, Peach, Greninja, Captain Falcon
-MID-
C: Ness, Bowser, Luigi, Olimar, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Pit & Dark Pit, Lucas, R.O.B., Robin
D: Ike, Wario, Duck Hunt, Shulk, Link, Mr. Game & Watch
-LOW-
E: Samus, Palutena, Little Mac, Roy, Charizard, Pac-Man, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Wii Fit Trainer, Falco, Dr. Mario
F: King Dedede, Ganondorf, [Gunner], Zelda, [Brawler, Swordsman], Jigglypuff

Please read the full article for any questions/queries on the voting processes
Things were done differently~

More details can also be found on the V3 Followup Article.

---

Previous Lists:
Version 1.0
Version 2.0

WHAT MAKES MARIO BETTER THAN FOX?!!?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

WHAT MAKES MARIO BETTER THAN FOX?!!?

Hey, m8, that list is plenty of months old.

 

[Lord Dio]

WHAT MAKES MARIO BETTER THAN FOX?!!?

That's something we've been trying to figure out since July.
Welcome to the boards btw.

i feel like with Roy you should try to abuse your range against Luigi instead of trying to fight him up close, Roy is a fast faller and we've all seen what Luigi can do to fast fallers in a matter of seconds

Good point, but Roy has the potential to do just as much damage, and can back away and abuse hsi range if he needs to.

 

[Mama Luigi]

That's something we've been trying to figure out since July.
Welcome to the boards btw.

Good point, but Roy has the potential to do just as much damage, and can back away and abuse hsi range if he needs to.

I mean seriously. WHY?!!?I understand that Mario can do down throw then up tilt combos, but Fox can pretty much follow up with ANYTHING.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I mean seriously. WHY?!!?I understand that Mario can do down throw then up tilt combos, but Fox can pretty much follow up with ANYTHING.

Honestly I wouldn't disagree with Fox being better nowadays.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I hope I'm not too late to the party on GTX but Mr. R has the crustiest Roy ever, god damn. What an awful showing. Can't wait to see Hyper and Captain Levi at FE Saga to really show off the character more.

 

[ARGHETH]

I mean seriously. WHY?!!?I understand that Mario can do down throw then up tilt combos, but Fox can pretty much follow up with ANYTHING.

If there's one thing people love doing around here, it's boiling characters down to a single trait lol

 

[Lord Dio]

I hope I'm not too late to the party on GTX but Mr. R has the crustiest Roy ever, god damn. What an awful showing. Can't wait to see Hyper and Captain Levi at FE Saga to really show off the character more.

Do we know if Komo's going? because he's said he likes FE a lot, we could see his Roy if he does.

 

[Illuminose]

I disagree.

You would see her significantly more often in top 8's thus improving her results.

And since we've already established that results are at least part of what makes a good tier list, she would also move up the tier list.

Maybe not a lot, but at least a little. Same phenomenon for DK/Bowser.

And getting into the weeds a little more - you would additionally see her meta develop a little faster than it would have originally. Thus further improving her results.

i don't think considering results by placements for tier lists is particularly useful. good placements can occur for a variety of reasons, such as good bracket, other people playing poorly, and some players simply being better than others (hence why zero winning lots of tournaments doesn't make diddy the best). granted, i can see a point being made when a character has started to overcome their 'really bad mus' in bracket over and over to achieve high placings. in that situation, you might reevaluate what you think of the character. results are also helpful to evaluate matchups because it can definitely be concerning if a mu thought to swing one way repeatedly swings the other way in practice. pulling out a character for a matchup where they do alright in and winning it doesn't really mean anything for their tier list placement unless that mu is thought to be bad and starts being won consistently.

also is super overrated. i think most of it is because people think his bayonetta mu is only -1 or something nowadays, which is ridiculous. fox does perform decently in neutral, granted, and has reasonable ability to chase some of bayonetta's landings due to his high speed. that said, it's far too easy for fox to just get hit and die. up b fair, utilt fair, side b fair, and dtilt fair are all examples of confirms that can lead to fox's death from as close as mid stage. the reason bayo players aren't winning this mu consistently at the top level is that they haven't practiced or aren't correctly executing fair strings to kill fox. because fox players currently mostly just have to deal with neutral and edgeguarding in many case, the bayo fox mu might only be seen as -1 by some. however, when bayo players stop being lazy and execute their guaranteed death strings, it's just a bad matchup.

fox also has clearly losing matchups against sheik and cloud, two of the top 4. with an at least -2 mu and two -1 mus against the top 4, fox struggles with the characters that are most important to be good against. other losing mus like rosa, pikachu, luigi, ryu, and potentially mario add to fox's list of issues. when it comes down to it, although fox has many good attributes like good pressure, devastating combos, and great ledge trapping, he still has notable flaws and issues in a number of matchups that limit him from being as good as many say.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

other losing mus like rosa, pikachu, luigi, ryu, and potentially mario

Only Luigi and Ryu are definitive losing MUs in the opinion of many Fox mains.

 

[verbatim]

Even when executed correctly Fox can still get out of extended Bayo fair combo's with extremely good sdi. No one has said that the matchup is even, but implying that it's horrendous might be a bit much.

 

[Yonder]

Fox is like Luigi, running both hot and cold. When I see Larry running hot, I think "wow this character can be S tier easily" . Then I see Fox getting trashed, running cold, and I think "Barely even top...". You're either taking stocks left and right with superior advantage and explosive kill power and mobility, of dying at 20 from being gimped super easy and being comboed by everyone with ease.

I think he fits well near or at the top of A tier. But his disadvantage sucks too much to be S.

 

[Y2Kay]

So y'all gonna put Bowser AND Donkey Kong in your top 20 but not Greninja? cmooon guys.

 

[MERPIS]

So y'all gonna put Bowser AND Donkey Kong in your top 20 but not Greninja? cmooon guys.

typical smashboards and BR logic

 

[|RK|]

i don't think considering results by placements for tier lists is particularly useful. good placements can occur for a variety of reasons, such as good bracket, other people playing poorly, and some players simply being better than others (hence why zero winning lots of tournaments doesn't make diddy the best). granted, i can see a point being made when a character has started to overcome their 'really bad mus' in bracket over and over to achieve high placings. in that situation, you might reevaluate what you think of the character. results are also helpful to evaluate matchups because it can definitely be concerning if a mu thought to swing one way repeatedly swings the other way in practice. pulling out a character for a matchup where they do alright in and winning it doesn't really mean anything for their tier list placement unless that mu is thought to be bad and starts being won consistently.

also is super overrated. i think most of it is because people think his bayonetta mu is only -1 or something nowadays, which is ridiculous. fox does perform decently in neutral, granted, and has reasonable ability to chase some of bayonetta's landings due to his high speed. that said, it's far too easy for fox to just get hit and die. up b fair, utilt fair, side b fair, and dtilt fair are all examples of confirms that can lead to fox's death from as close as mid stage. the reason bayo players aren't winning this mu consistently at the top level is that they haven't practiced or aren't correctly executing fair strings to kill fox. because fox players currently mostly just have to deal with neutral and edgeguarding in many case, the bayo fox mu might only be seen as -1 by some. however, when bayo players stop being lazy and execute their guaranteed death strings, it's just a bad matchup.

fox also has clearly losing matchups against sheik and cloud, two of the top 4. with an at least -2 mu and two -1 mus against the top 4, fox struggles with the characters that are most important to be good against. other losing mus like rosa, pikachu, luigi, ryu, and potentially mario add to fox's list of issues. when it comes down to it, although fox has many good attributes like good pressure, devastating combos, and great ledge trapping, he still has notable flaws and issues in a number of matchups that limit him from being as good as many say.

I mean, consistent results typically raise characters up - not random one-offs. So we account for bracket luck that way. A tier list made on theory alone certainly isn't useful.

As for Fox/Bayonetta... I think lazy is the last thing you can call many of the Bayonetta players who have been losing to Fox. You basically listed a number of confirms that require the right percent/situation/improper SDI. Fox beats Bayo in neutral, with both a way to force her to approach and dance around her. The aforementioned SDI helps Fox to punish attempts at those combos, since he lands fast and punishes just as fast.

Sheik and Cloud... I mean, sure, but -1 isn't "struggles," not even with Smash's weird ratios. Fact is, solo Fox is totally viable at top level, and he keeps winning these MUs often enough. Plus, his strengths are valuable in every MU, even the losing ones.

 

[Y2Kay]

typical smashboards and BR logic

It's honestly kind of bizarre. Greninja has had whole ton of growth in the past two years. I remember back in the day we had . . . four relevant players? and now we have like twenty. but greninja is still viewed as niche-y high mid character. sigh.

 

[MERPIS]

It's honestly kind of bizarre. Greninja has had whole ton of growth in the past two years. I remember back in the day we had . . . four relevant players? and now we have like twenty. but greninja is still viewed as niche-y high mid character. sigh.

I believe that is mostly due to lack of results in the high levels and top levels of play. iStudying hasn't really done too many notable things in the past months outside of syndicate. I feel gren has the potential to be a top 10 pick once he gets the results that fit him. He has almost everything he needs to be a top tier pick, mobility, recovery, okay kill power, safeness, a good projectile, decent range and frame data, and when his combo game is mastered, its some of the most dangerous in the game.

 

[Illuminose]

I mean, consistent results typically raise characters up - not random one-offs. So we account for bracket luck that way. A tier list made on theory alone certainly isn't useful.

As for Fox/Bayonetta... I think lazy is the last thing you can call many of the Bayonetta players who have been losing to Fox. You basically listed a number of confirms that require the right percent/situation/improper SDI. Fox beats Bayo in neutral, with both a way to force her to approach and dance around her. The aforementioned SDI helps Fox to punish attempts at those combos, since he lands fast and punishes just as fast.

Sheik and Cloud... I mean, sure, but -1 isn't "struggles," not even with Smash's weird ratios. Fact is, solo Fox is totally viable at top level, and he keeps winning these MUs often enough. Plus, his strengths are valuable in every MU, even the losing ones.

your first paragraph makes it look like you didn't even read my post. i said how i think results should be incorporated into tier lists. the general rule of thumb is that tier lists should be based on matchup spreads, which are based on 'theory' that is crafted and refined by studying interactions and looking at results. that is very useful because it uses a metric that actually measures how good characters are (their matchups against the cast) and accounts for shifts in the metagame (changes in theory/trends in results).

the confirms i listed aren't situational. up b oos is very common to land, especially against fox who often commits to options that bayonetta can combat with up b oos. up b has a guaranteed confirm into fair. the timing for the up b into fair is not especially easy, and neither is the timing for the fair string. however, the fact that the current top bayos miss it essentially every time is indicative of just not practicing it because it's not so hard that it cannot be consistently done with practice. there isn't really a practical way to sdi out of the fair string, so once you are hit by the fair you should be dead. fair can also be landed raw in neutral. dtilt is a common move to land in neutral. getting a fair out of heel slide or in an up b->side b combo is not uncommon. these are not particularly hard things to land, and the fair should always lead to death.

i don't agree that fox wins neutral against bayo. it's a close neutral, granted, but there's still many things that bayo has going for her. fox doesn't really have a way to force bayo to approach because bayo has all of the options to basically ignore lasers (i'm presuming that's what you mean) and the options to punish them from further distances than other characters due to bullet arts, heel slide, and dive kick. bayo is a relatively hard character to dance around because she has good range and burst options to cover both above and next to her. fox can sort of play games with his movement, but there's definitely limits to it. most of fox's effectiveness against bayo in neutral comes down to whiff punishing, low end lag, and his ability to get under bayonetta quickly. bayonetta still has a lot of options from a defensive standpoint and a solid bait/punish game that she can utilize to make neutral very tight or in her favor.

i said fox struggles in general with the top 4 because he has two slightly losing matchups and one solidly losing matchup without beating any of them. it's not as bad as a character like zss or mewtwo struggles with the top 4, but it's also worse than characters like rosalina, sonic, pikachu, mario, and mk do, and on par with the likes of corrin and marth. while matchups against those characters don't determine everything, i think effectiveness against them is one of the more important aspects of how good a character is. the way i tend to weigh this is matchups vs top 4>matchups vs 5-15 (the range of characters i'd put in the tier after the top 4)>matchups vs everyone else. i won't dispute that fox is solo viable at top level, but i think other characters are with fewer/less important problematic matchups. i'll post my top 20 at some point soon because i think it could spark interesting discussion.

 

[my_T]

Shuton literally has not placed outside of top 16 all year and has placed top 8 in most of tournaments he's entered with solo Olimar along with taking sets off of a bunch of top players but hey...somehow DK/Bowser are better because of some secondary wins.

Also, it seems some of you aren't accounting for representation. There is a rather large group of players that are using DK/Bowser as secondaries and all together they have racked up a decent amount of wins. However, if you look at each player individually you will find that their success rate with the DK/Bowser counter pick isn't very good.