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Marth took a game off NAKAT's Ness. Unsure if Marth was used outside of that set.
Top 20, potentially top 15.Okay so let's talk about
It is Luigi's weakness, but it's not IMPOSSIBLE to get around. I like watching Elegant for that reason - Cloud is amazing at camping Luigi out, but Elegant knows exactly how to play around that. Either something like powershield > ftilt, waiting for a whiff, etc.
Elegant was punishing a lot of Leo's bairs with rising fair and rar b-air, things got rough for Elegant once he started over shielding and giving Leo free grabs, being forced offstage and having to deal with Leo's amazing ledge option coverage. Not that I blame Elegant due to Leo's immaculate spacing and conditioning.
The matchup gets exponentially worse for Luigi when Cloud waits for him to attack first. Cloud can just whiff punish basically everything, which is his biggest strength in most matchups.
Honerable mention to T (Link) for getting 3rd at that one big tournament I can't remember...
So what do you mean by that?
That Link placement was also Civil War. And a sort of exception was when Abadango got 1st at a tournament with Mewtwo after he got buffed and people still weren't sure if he was top or high tier yet. Next tier list after that, he got added to top tier. Granted, Mewtwo gets more consistent results than the other characters I mentioned.
One problem with this, which has mainly been this year: Falcon. Falcon does seem to kind of drop, yeah, but his drops are really fast. 2nd at CW, dropped for a bit, 2nd at Momocon, dropped for a bit, 1st at Showdown, now starting to drop a bit again.
Characters that you should at least have a knowledgeable and we'll trained sparring partner to verse with that main, and to also know your kill windows for depending on if your character has one. Everyone below DK I feel you don't have to worry about having practice against because...well they aren't as good as the group mentioned and your mains strengths will probably overpower them. Unless your character is one of those weird low tiers who does ok vs a top tier (Mac vs Bayo)
From what I've heard mentioned throughout and even during commentating, Luigi is harder to punish or catch on the ledge because his timing is different or something like that...I noticed MKLeo figured it out during the rest and got many grabs upon Elegant when recovering get up from the ledge.
The thing is the way elegant played it, he either ran until he got real close to mkleo, or did a dash grab that was spaced right on him. Cloud can wait until both players grow beards, but he'll bust moves once Luigi inches closer and closer.
That's not inherently true. While Lightweight and Super Speed make Palutena much better, she'd still fare well using either of the two, especially over Reflect and Counter. Lightweight would allow her to KO combo off of her grabs, and Super Speed would allow her to get in on her opponent. As for Ganondorf, while Dark Fists and Dropkick would be nice (And Warlock's Blade lol), Wizard's Dropkick alone helps his recovery IMMENSELY.
That trait isn't exclusive to Cloud though. A lot of characters can play keepaway and whiff punish against Luigi, but the thing about Elegant is that *he* was the one provoking Cloud to hit first in his matches, by inching closer and closer to bait a spaced aerial or some other commitment.
What makes you think DK is high tier? For all of the ****ty MU's he has I doubt anyone can make a convincing argument but I'd like to see someone try.
I used to think this as well. I still do for mid-level play. Once you get closer to top level play though, you really need to be studying your projected pools and bracket pretty hard. With 56 characters, with discord building esoteric community knowledge, it's dangerous to rely on your presumed top tier character's strengths to carry you. You need to do your due diligence and practice if you are facing say, a top Ike or a top Link or something.
I mean yeah but....again, that's why Cloud isn't supposed to attack first. His frame data does not really require him to be pre-emptive, especially if his back is turned to Luigi, which is where it gets really obnoxious.
, I've always thought he's been lowkey high tier for a while; in fact, I remember mentioning this a couple of days ago during our tier list talks. I never thought his 26th place on the tier list did him enough justice. Not going into individual placements, but I think he's top 20 somewhere.Our best local player is a MK main, and as a matter of fact, he was eliminated by a Diddy at a tournament yesterday in an upset (ended up 9th, same as little old me). I asked him about the MU (this was all before Leo v ZeRo), and he said that the MU is doable, but it's generally a struggle. The areas of the MU that seem to be problem areas are mostly to do with the ground and MK's range. Dash Attack is MK's best move, and banana controls the ground around MK. If Diddy places banana at a good range and stands back, MK is forced to get around the banana. He can Dash Attack to pick it up, but if Diddy waits for this he can punish it, but if MK has the banana in hand, he loses his best move in Dash Attack. Diddy's Fair also outranges and can trade with any of MK's moves (that's sad to think about actually; dumb move), so he has that to watch for too.
In regards to MK v Diddy, if Diddy places the banana on the ground, MK could still use it as a potential offensive option if he can grab it. His forward item toss also has less endlag than his dash attack (faf 25 compared to faf 32) and it only comes out 1 frame later (f8 compared to f7). JCIT would allow the banana to slightly substitute his dash attack along with the options of retreating while throwing it at Diddy or throwing it in the air to keep it out of play for slightly longer. As for fair, being able to outrange MK is pretty dumb (amusing though considering Brawl) but if Diddy whiffs then MK should be able to punish with dash attack or banana. I also wonder if MK can duck under it since his step dash is so good. This is all just spitballing while looking at frame data since I've never played the mu.On
Cloud:Luigi may not be good fun for Luigi, but Elegant proved it's more than possible.
Most great characters in this game have their "jank", trump card type thing. For Luigi it's Cyclone gimps. He's got all the makings of a good character. His combo game is still borked. Sheik and Bayonetta have 0-50% combos? That's cute I suppose. 0-85% is what tough guys do, clearly.
Of course he has his own weaknesses that prevent him from being top tier though.
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Our best local player is a MK main, and as a matter of fact, he was eliminated by a Diddy at a tournament yesterday in an upset (ended up 9th, same as little old me). I asked him about the MU (this was all before Leo v ZeRo), and he said that the MU is doable, but it's generally a struggle. The areas of the MU that seem to be problem areas are mostly to do with the ground and MK's range. Dash Attack is MK's best move, and banana controls the ground around MK. If Diddy places banana at a good range and stands back, MK is forced to get around the banana. He can Dash Attack to pick it up, but if Diddy waits for this he can punish it, but if MK has the banana in hand, he loses his best move in Dash Attack. Diddy's Fair also outranges and can trade with any of MK's moves (that's sad to think about actually; dumb move), so he has that to watch for too.
However, he says the plus sides include that Diddy is quite easy to ladder with his weight and physics, as well as having a decent hurtbox size, and the offstage game and gimps. This is what Leo was capitalizing on during the set and it's probably why he won the set to be honest. To be quite blunt MK has one of, if not the best off stage games in the game. Not only does he possess some disjoint, but he has multiple jumps, and a special moveset where all moves can theoretically be used for recovery. MK can go out/deep as much as he wants and still get back. This is the future for MK play.
And in reference to Cloud and Marth, I can't comment much on Cloud, but I actually played Marth:Diddy loads yesterday at the same tournament. I always used to think the MU was a big disadvantage for Marth, and that Leo was just good at the MU. However, I definitely feel now that it's much like MK; either even or minor Diddy advantage. Marth just needs to play the stage control game and utilise his walk to pressure Diddy into a corner where he's forced to monkey flip, which you punish on reaction with your disjoint. Overcomittal in the MU leads to some mean damage though, so good utilisation of Jab and Dtilt for spacing is key.
Also coming out of yesterday, more hot opinions of mine that will likely die out in a few weeks (disclaimer: my opinions):
- Bayonetta loses to Rosalina, or is even at best.
- Marth still does well v Rosalina; might even beat her.
- Rosalina beats Sonic.
- Samus v ROB is actually quite good for Samus - also only realised her Dthrow isn't weight based which is hype.
- Ganon in doubles with the right partner is actually amazing.
For a character with such a terrible MU chart ( and some are pretty rough) he has placed well as a main and secondary since the last tier list at a consistent rate. He's another Luigi where he has a terrible disadvantage (he doesn't struggle as bad with disjoints tho) but has a monsterous advantage where Luigi can combo you to 80, he kills you in three grabs and has the means to land those grabs
should be high tier for a long time. His trouble approaching is somewhat negated by his fireball; it really pulls his moveset together.IMO
belongs in a borderline tier with a few other midtiers () and high tiers (). 's strengths outweigh his weaknesses but he does have them. He's obviously better than mid-tiers yet not as solid as high tiers.^This. Don't forget Zero lost to
, was that PrinceRamen And Trella (iirc?) was wrecking with before people figured him out. Even can be scary if you don't know how to deal with her, as Ven has showed.
I don't think people figured him out more so the fact trela stopped using him when ryu was released.And Trella (iirc?) was wrecking with
Leo went Marth a lot vs ZeRo's Diddy in the past, and usually still does, then switches to Cloud should he feel the need.
You'd be surprised how many bad characters do much better in dubs with the right char/player
So who would be in your 21-30 range (honourable mentions included)?Leo went Marth a lot vs ZeRo's Diddy in the past, and usually still does, then switches to Cloud should he feel the need.
To be honest, I wonder if Meta Knight also caught ZeRo by surprise, and whether that also likely had something to help assist with the win. Obviously having multiple characters to surprise people is a real thing and Leo is a prime example. It's been a very long time since Leo used Meta Knight vs ZeRo properly, and it worked out well.
Honestly, I still stand by the fact that I think Meta Knight is lowkey top tier (if we consider Ryu, Mewtwo, Marth, Mario etc also top tier), but I'm likely biased as our best player is an MK main. Failing that (if we consider those characters top tier again) he's the best high tier character.
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Tbh, over the weekend, my opinions on the top 20 have shifted to this (loosely ordered):
Going strictly off of characters appearing commonly at top level etc, I don't see any other character deserving of being a top 20 character right now, hence why Bowser and DK are here as they've established themselves as great counterpicks, Honourable mention goes to Lucario for being f***ing dumb (Day got a 30% damage Aura Sphere on Raito... wat) but he's a bit wobbly at times. Also Falcon, he's really darn good too.
I also still think DK >>> Bowser, but as you can see above, both are still quite good IMO.
And honestly, if ESAM pulls his finger out, I could see Pikachu rising up to around the Ryu, Marth area. Does anyone know what control scheme Captain L was using; I assume bidou? His movement was super slick.
Kameme hasn't attended a major tournament since SCR Saga last month, and ScAtt hasn't been active since late July (though he did get a win on Fatality in Gwinnett Brawl Sep 2017, a Georgia weekly). Not much has actually happened since.
I can agree with most of that top 20. Bowser's the only one I think I'd question though the only characters I'd personally put in his spot there are the ones you mentioned: Lucario and Falcon. Quite the drop for Villager and Megaman compared to the current tier list. I also find your placement of Fox kinda surprising. Granted, the top tier seems to be segmented with a clear top of the topLeo went Marth a lot vs ZeRo's Diddy in the past, and usually still does, then switches to Cloud should he feel the need.
To be honest, I wonder if Meta Knight also caught ZeRo by surprise, and whether that also likely had something to help assist with the win. Obviously having multiple characters to surprise people is a real thing and Leo is a prime example. It's been a very long time since Leo used Meta Knight vs ZeRo properly, and it worked out well.
Honestly, I still stand by the fact that I think Meta Knight is lowkey top tier (if we consider Ryu, Mewtwo, Marth, Mario etc also top tier), but I'm likely biased as our best player is an MK main. Failing that (if we consider those characters top tier again) he's the best high tier character.
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Tbh, over the weekend, my opinions on the top 20 have shifted to this (loosely ordered):
Going strictly off of characters appearing commonly at top level etc, I don't see any other character deserving of being a top 20 character right now, hence why Bowser and DK are here as they've established themselves as great counterpicks, Honourable mention goes to Lucario for being f***ing dumb (Day got a 30% damage Aura Sphere on Raito... wat) but he's a bit wobbly at times. Also Falcon, he's really darn good too.
I also still think DK >>> Bowser, but as you can see above, both are still quite good IMO.
And honestly, if ESAM pulls his finger out, I could see Pikachu rising up to around the Ryu, Marth area. Does anyone know what control scheme Captain L was using; I assume bidou? His movement was super slick.
a clear middle and a clear low with opinions of usually being quite varied and not being top tier in the eyes of some. I'd personally put Rosa and ZSS over Fox but that's only a 2 placement difference and he'd still be in that middle portion.I think he had K9, but I don't know if K9 went Sheik or Diddy. All I heard was T got a f-smash read and KO'd him at 50%, which I find silly.
PrinceRamen mah boi
Dying at 50% just screams sheik tbh
)for high tier next tier list?
