Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

That was not what I was going for, I just did not want to include the "not to be rude" part beforehand.

 

[blackghost]

while we are still on customs, i was doing some theory crafting and its really funny how custom palutena deals with bayo.
faster in air and ground due to light weight? check.
grab kill confirms immune to witch time? check.
ability to edge guard bayo? check bair and lightwieght beat abk cleanly.
good projectile? check
force bayo to approach? check (bayo has to attack while lightweight is on cooldown.)
alternative movement options? check superspeed cancels and jump glide.

my point is we removed so much from the game we dont even know what we missed. i still do believe custom moves were put in for the biggest fans of smash becuase how hard they were to aquire and how the changes between them (lets take megaman leaf shield variations) are subtle but very important long term

eventually i do think smash 4 fans will adapt a customs ruleset but that may not be until smash 5 releases. but with the upcoming release of blaze blue cross tag and marvel infinite my interest in this game has noticeably gone down.

 

[Kofu]

The patch team even nerfed explosive balloons twice over the last two patches lol. Smaller hitboxes and a fuel mechanic.

IIRC it and Dragon Rush were the only two customs to get nerfed directly (not relating to the base move, in other words).

I was always under the impression that customs got banned mainly as a logistical nightmare rather than for balance (community outcry against certain customs probably helped, though)

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I fear it is too late to adopt customs since we are 3 years in and the opposition may bring up the arguement of changing the meta again or how it is a pain to get customs. I think the community is too comfortable with the current ruleset as is. And as was said before, we seem to hate change. If we can find a way around the naysayers, we may have a shot.

 

[Yonder]

I fear it is too late to adopt customs since we are 3 years in and the opposition may bring up the arguement of changing the meta again or how it is a pain to get customs. I think the community is too comfortable with the current ruleset as is. And as was said before, we seem to hate change. If we can find a way around the naysayers, we may have a shot.

I think we could ease into customs again. It's been 3 years, yes but now we have codes (I think) to unlock all customs quickly or people can transfer customs...

Or maybe just collaborate which customs are worth banning or not banning, I think the jankieest ones and villager balloon explosion are most obvious. Maybe offer custom options to low tiers only?

Start slow, maybe custom side events, then custom brackets, smallpools with newly implemented rules.

I am just ballparking here, I think we outlawed them too quickly and I'd like to see their return with some changes.

 

[ARISTOS]

I think we could ease into customs again. It's been 3 years, yes but now we have codes (I think) to unlock all customs quickly or people can transfer customs...

Or maybe just collaborate which customs are worth banning or not banning, I think the jankieest ones and villager balloon explosion are most obvious. Maybe offer custom options to low tiers only?

Start slow, maybe custom side events, then custom brackets, smallpools with newly implemented rules.

I am just ballparking here, I think we outlawed them too quickly and I'd like to see their return with some changes.

Even with codes people would say "I don't want to hack my Wii U!" or "I shouldn't be forced to do X" and that would be that.

Customs off is the default and it'd be incredibly difficult (read: impossible) for it to return as the main meta.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

As a main meta yeah customs would never replace that. As a side meta it could replace something like doubles. I never watch doubles, does it normally have a lot less viewers than singles? Nobody I know cares about doubles but that may just be anecdotal on my part.

 

[TDK]

So is playing to win bad?



Yes.

Edit: Is there going to be a thread for GTX? The stream has been live for a few hours as of now.

http://www.twitch.tv/endgametv1

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-gtx-discussion-thread.450418/

 

[R3D3MON]

eventually i do think smash 4 fans will adapt a customs ruleset but that may not be until smash 5 releases. but with the upcoming release of blaze blue cross tag and marvel infinite my interest in this game has noticeably gone down.

You forgot to mention the new Dragon Ball Fighterz release :D

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Yeah as cool as it would be to see customs come back the logistics are just too much. The moves themselves aren't a problem (though could you imagine the Villager-Mac MU with trip sapling?) but the difficulty in getting them is the problem they are random drops and you have a ton of them to get. Not only you have to unlock them all to be fair to all characters but you'd have to do this many times for all of the set ups, this rule would kill smaller local scenes that rely on people bringing their set ups to local tournaments and you may be able to hack them in but now you have the issue of software modification and the fact that while rare it still can brick your system. It's just not feasible sadly.

 

[ぱみゅ]

For the sake of contributing while hoping I do not keep derailing the thread, this is a friendly reminder that the place to talk about Customs is this one: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-fighter-atelier-a-place-for-the-customs-meta.431973/

Anyway, something I've been believing since like forever is the idea of having one Custom move per character as a way to reignite their usage, I just need a chance to properly push for it, but it might just be a good place to start.

Also, its logistics aren't nearly as bad as people think it is, you only need to unlock Customs in ONE 3DS, and only ONCE, and you can transfer the sets to every Wii U. The more 3DSs with them unlocked, the easier it is to set them all up.
And given hacking 3DS is far, FAR easier than a Wii U, and much less risky, I'd say TOs don't have anything to fear. Most of them are just lazy.

 

[blackghost]

You forgot to mention the new Dragon Ball Fighterz release :D

i dont want to hijack the thread but i havent been impressed with that game at all. looks utterly basic. played some marvel and dragonball is missing a lot of content combat wise.
dakotaisgreat the funny thing is videos and matches that have custom moves always getr views. people may whine, complain, and whatever else but they DO watch.

 

[R3D3MON]

i dont want to hijack the thread but i havent been impressed with that game at all. looks utterly basic. played some marvel and dragonball is missing a lot of content combat wise.
dakotaisgreat the funny thing is videos and matches that have custom moves always getr views. people may whine, complain, and whatever else but they DO watch.

Uhh that's sad. Is it really that basic? I heard some good stuff from other people, especially regarding its tag team mechanics.

 

[TDK]

Periodic FE Saga update ft. lots of Europe:

- Frozen has been fully funded
- Rameses has been fully funded
- Plastic Poptart & Matsudoku have been fully funded
- Mad Ice King has been fully funded
- Shoghi has been fully funded

 

[Nathan Richardson]

For the sake of contributing while hoping I do not keep derailing the thread, this is a friendly reminder that the place to talk about Customs is this one: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-fighter-atelier-a-place-for-the-customs-meta.431973/

Anyway, something I've been believing since like forever is the idea of having one Custom move per character as a way to reignite their usage, I just need a chance to properly push for it, but it might just be a good place to start.

Also, its logistics aren't nearly as bad as people think it is, you only need to unlock Customs in ONE 3DS, and only ONCE, and you can transfer the sets to every Wii U. The more 3DSs with them unlocked, the easier it is to set them all up.
And given hacking 3DS is far, FAR easier than a Wii U, and much less risky, I'd say TOs don't have anything to fear. Most of them are just lazy.

The issue though is that some people don't have the 3DS version. (I have just the Wii U version), I only got one because I couldn't afford both. Why buy games for both systems? One should be enough. So what about those of us that don't have the 3DS version and can't afford it?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Well, I'm not suggesting this but.... hacking does more than just unlocking some moves or characters....

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Well, I'm not suggesting this but.... hacking does more than just unlocking some moves or characters....

You may not suggest it but the implications are there. Are you saying that an option is to try to hack the game into our 3DS systems? I'm not tech savvy enough to do that nor do I know of anyone who is. Granted though the TOs might be able to get their hands on the 3DS games but then comes the question of the people who have the 3DS version and not the Wii U version? Note I'm not asking this to start a fight or anything (starting an argument with a mod? I'd be an idiot) i'm genuinely concerned as i've heard several people say they have one version and not the other. It's practically a rule of thumb at this point.

 

[blackghost]

Uhh that's sad. Is it really that basic? I heard some good stuff from other people, especially regarding its tag team mechanics.

The team mechanics aren't special compared to something like infinite or skullgirls

What impact will this FE Saga have on the community? I'm hoping we can at least get some more true side by side comparison of marth matchup and compare to Lucina and these toy players need to show me something. I can't judge the character until I see him played more in large events

 

[TDK]

You may not suggest it but the implications are there. Are you saying that an option is to try to hack the game into our 3DS systems? I'm not tech savvy enough to do that nor do I know of anyone who is. Granted though the TOs might be able to get their hands on the 3DS games but then comes the question of the people who have the 3DS version and not the Wii U version? Note I'm not asking this to start a fight or anything (starting an argument with a mod? I'd be an idiot) i'm genuinely concerned as i've heard several people say they have one version and not the other. It's practically a rule of thumb at this point.

You can transfer custom characters from the 3DS version to the Wii U version fairly easily, meaning a single (hacked) 3DS with all the customs unlocked can suffice for this purpose.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I have all the customs unlocked on my 3ds after playing classic mode almost every day of a month playing from morning until I fell asleep or got bored of doing classic mode so many times on 9.0 intensity using the home screen tactic to always get custom pieces (I did that during summer a few years ago).

From that I can say I ran into a ton of duplicates, and for some hours and probably even days I would come out with only a few or 0 new custom moves.

I kept running into duplicates and equipment. I heard that the Wii U version has an easier time of getting all the customs, but I have yet to accomplish that. I hope some other players are lucky and took less time than me. I knoe that there are some guides on youtube and threads on the internet that can help.

Also I think the transferring idea can get shut down due to TO's probably saying that lutting customs on all system will be time consuming (read as lazy); not to mention that it is impossible to my knowledge to fit every custom combination on a character's custom page due to there only being 9-10 slots to fill.

I think we really went off track from Minodereth's points which were the root of the problem but I am enjoying this current conversation.

 

[Phan7om]

But when I watch Melee, I notice that lower level players can never move as quickly as the upper level players. This is also evident in Smash 4, but that gap is so much less obvious IMO.

And so it's like - being able to do more things with your character on top of fundamentals tends to separate the top players from the rest. But with little to no tech skill barrier, it almost entirely comes down to fundamentals.

Does Smash 4 suffer from a lack of willingness to "perfect" one's character, maybe? Do attitudes like this exist in Melee? And finally - would character mastery be sufficient to create a skill gap like this?

So for example - if Ally optimized his punishes in the way Armada always does. If ZeRo did... idk. Rising Barrels? Ledge trump dair? So on and so forth.

Yes, I've talked with NinjaLink a lot about this over the past year and smash 4 suffers from the low drive to progress the meta. We've talked about A LOT so paraphrasing it down into a few sentences... More or less smash 4 is a case of "what Im doing now is working, why risk trying to do anything else." Most of the tech and new ways of punishing are immediately put off as impractical and never explored the correct way.

The difference between smash 4 and melee is that the tech has been proven to be good at top level, so people with good fundamentals are able to use it to the fullest. In one of Armada's videos (I think the peach tips one) he mentioned wavedashing with peach, and when he was up and coming it was considered useless with peach mostly because the best peach at the time didn't use it, now that he's the best he recommends it. Thus my opinion on why smash 4 lower level and upper level isnt that big, most of the top players aren't doing a lot so the game is considered having no tech barrier. From experience with Melee/PM, most low-mid level players can do the tech and move fast in training mode but they dont know how to apply it so they move slower than the top players in comparison.

So imo/tldr, its not that melee's top players are fast, smash 4's are just slow because it works atm.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

You can transfer custom characters from the 3DS version to the Wii U version fairly easily, meaning a single (hacked) 3DS with all the customs unlocked can suffice for this purpose.

Hrmm so you don't need the Wii U version you can just use the 3DS version and transfer it from there? And the hacking won't brick the system or corrupt any save files?

 

[TDK]

Hrmm so you don't need the Wii U version you can just use the 3DS version and transfer it from there? And the hacking won't brick the system or corrupt any save files?

No, but when you connect a 3DS to the Wii U you have the option to transfer custom characters and miis from there. So one single 3DS system with all the customs can support an entire room's worth of Wii Us.

 

[Lord Dio]

Darkshad 2-1 Locus at GTX just now.
That was super hype for a ditto, but who had the bright idea to put the 2 best ryu's in the same pool?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

The duck hunt vs ike match was hype to me. It lasted so long.

 

[TDK]

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-gtx-discussion-thread.450418/#post-21846444

Thread bump now that singles is under way

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Yes, I've talked with NinjaLink a lot about this over the past year and smash 4 suffers from the low drive to progress the meta. We've talked about A LOT so paraphrasing it down into a few sentences... More or less smash 4 is a case of "what Im doing now is working, why risk trying to do anything else." Most of the tech and new ways of punishing are immediately put off as impractical and never explored the correct way.

The difference between smash 4 and melee is that the tech has been proven to be good at top level, so people with good fundamentals are able to use it to the fullest. In one of Armada's videos (I think the peach tips one) he mentioned wavedashing with peach, and when he was up and coming it was considered useless with peach mostly because the best peach at the time didn't use it, now that he's the best he recommends it. Thus my opinion on why smash 4 lower level and upper level isnt that big, most of the top players aren't doing a lot so the game is considered having no tech barrier. From experience with Melee/PM, most low-mid level players can do the tech and move fast in training mode but they dont know how to apply it so they move slower than the top players in comparison.

So imo/tldr, its not that melee's top players are fast, smash 4's are just slow because it works atm.

• top players don't use tech
• majority of players will not use tech because the top players don't
• tech gets obscured and forgotten

scenarios like these should keep us from assuming that top players are always right.

 

[Aaron1997]

Raito vs Dabuz proves that GP is the most overrated move in the game. 45FAF, easily baited and punished and doesn't even get you anything for absorbing stuff. Also the fact that Rosa doesn't have a long range projectile to fire back is a big deal. The only thing its good at is preventing zoners from covering their landings/recoverys with Projectlies.

 

[|RK|]

Funny how we were just discussing DH vs Sheik, tbh

 

[dakotaisgreat]

**** Diddy Kong. Muh down tilt

 

[Kofu]

Raito vs Dabuz proves that GP is the most overrated move in the game. 45FAF, easily baited and punished and doesn't even get you anything for absorbing stuff. Also the fact that Rosa doesn't have a long range projectile to fire back is a big deal. The only thing its good at is preventing zoners from covering their landings/recoverys with Projectlies.

You can hit opponents with GP'd projectiles so it's not entirely passive.

 

[The-Technique]

Oh boy, tomorrow Zero fights DarkShad again right out of the gate. He got the runback on Salem, now will he get his payback on DarkShad too?

 

[ぱみゅ]

You may not suggest it but the implications are there. Are you saying that an option is to try to hack the game into our 3DS systems? I'm not tech savvy enough to do that nor do I know of anyone who is. Granted though the TOs might be able to get their hands on the 3DS games but then comes the question of the people who have the 3DS version and not the Wii U version? Note I'm not asking this to start a fight or anything (starting an argument with a mod? I'd be an idiot) i'm genuinely concerned as i've heard several people say they have one version and not the other. It's practically a rule of thumb at this point.

The site's rules forbid us from posting links to them, but there are online tutorials on how to do it. It truly isn't anything special at this point (just kinda tricky if you're not used to it).

Now, I do not always have all the answers, you can have an argument with me, and I admit defeat if I happen to be wrong.

I have all the customs unlocked on my 3ds after playing classic mode almost every day of a month playing from morning until I fell asleep or got bored of doing classic mode so many times on 9.0 intensity using the home screen tactic to always get custom pieces (I did that during summer a few years ago).

From that I can say I ran into a ton of duplicates, and for some hours and probably even days I would come out with only a few or 0 new custom moves.

I kept running into duplicates and equipment. I heard that the Wii U version has an easier time of getting all the customs, but I have yet to accomplish that. I hope some other players are lucky and took less time than me. I knoe that there are some guides on youtube and threads on the internet that can help.

I found Smash Run to be way faster than Classic for the 3DS at unlocking Customs.

Also I think the transferring idea can get shut down due to TO's probably saying that lutting customs on all system will be time consuming (read as lazy); not to mention that it is impossible to my knowledge to fit every custom combination on a character's custom page due to there only being 9-10 slots to fill.

I think we really went off track from Minodereth's points which were the root of the problem but I am enjoying this current conversation. [/SIZE]

Which is one of the reasons I want a One-custom meta: you only need to fill 8 slots.
A project like Amazing Ampharos' would work too, but we'd need a lot more input from each character's community.

Raito vs Dabuz proves that GP is the most overrated move in the game. 45FAF, easily baited and punished and doesn't even get you anything for absorbing stuff. Also the fact that Rosa doesn't have a long range projectile to fire back is a big deal. The only thing its good at is preventing zoners from covering their landings/recoverys with Projectlies.

But then every japanese Duckhunt loses to Kirihara. Always.
GP might not be the one pivotal tool one would imagine (DH isn't projectile heavy anyway), but with that evidence and a bit of personal experience, it doesn't seem to be a favorable matchup for Duckhunt at all.

 

[Lord Dio]

Imo while a good suggestion, one custom allowed per character doesn't work because some characters need more than one custom to be better (palutena, ganon, etc.)

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Is Amazing Ampharoo's project on this site?

Edit: The one custom rule per character reminds me of the Golden Ruleset problem that the Mii Discord has brought and has been implented in different regions based on their Mii players personal preference.

 

[Illusion.]

Heatwave 2 (27 entrants: Austin, Texas)

1st. GO! | KJ
2nd. Lucy
3rd. SU | Hakii
4th. TPwn | Dragonite

 

[Bowserboy3]

Okay so let's talk about

 

[TDK]

GameTyrant Expo 2017 (332 Entrants) (Utah?)

1st: MKLeo
2nd: Elegant
3rd: ZeRo
4th: Larry Lurr
5th: Mr. R
5th: ANTi
7th: Samsora
7th: DarkShad
9th: Nairo
9th: Dabuz
9th: Charliedaking
9th: Salem
13th: Zenyou
13th: JK
13th: Raito
13th: Zinoto
17th: MVD
17th: Marss
17th: PiXL
17th: ESAM
17th: VoiD
17th: Tweek
17th: NAKAT
17th: Komorikiri
25th: Mistake
25th: Ally
25th: Abadango
25th: Fatality
25th: Legit
25th: Calculus
25th: Tyrant
25th: Captain Zack

 

[Bowserboy3]

Larry used Marth?!

*SHOCKEDBUTVERYHAPPYFACE*

When was this?

 

[Yonder]

Okay so let's talk about

Slotted himself into high tier now I think. Elegant just broke limits with grab conversions and edgeguards. You got to be a hell of a powershielder and masher to master Luigi