Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Iron Kraken]

This is random, but I really wish there was more representation.

I recall Leo saying he thought Charizard was top 15, and ZeRo also said he thinks he has the potential to be high tier.

Zard honestly has so much going for him. Incredible kill power, a great kill throw that becomes lethal with the aid of a platform, great tilts, an awesome jab, good recovery mix-ups, and a plethora of landing options. His options in disadvantage really set him apart from the other heavyweights. His weight, good recovery, and kill power probably allow him to take advantage of rage more than any other character in the game with the exception of Lucario. The things that seem to be missing as far as I can tell are a not-so-great grab game, a not-so-great combo game, a large hurtbox, and poor aerial mobility (although somewhat made up for by having a third jump). But it certainly seems like he has the positive attributes to make up for his weaknesses.

I feel like we're just missing that one person to showcase what Zard can do, similar to how other characters have risen to prominence because of that one player who brings them into the limelight.

Zard's also a solid pick against Cloud because of how easily he can stuff his recovery with Flamethrower and D-tilt.

Is Sharpy the hero we need to prove Zard's worth?

Apparently, these are results from friendlies (possibly money matches?) at CEO Dreamland:

Sharpy 3-0 > Larry Lurr (although Larry's apparently got the best of him)
Void 5-4 > Sharpy
Sharpy 3-0 > Mr. E
Sharpy 4-3 > Fatality (Fatality won the first set 3-1, Sharpy won the second set 3-0)

 

[Yonder]

Is Sharpy the hero we need to prove Zard's worth?

Apparently, these are results from friendlies at CEO Dreamland:

Sharpy 3-0 > Larry Lurr (although Larry's apparently got the best of him)
Void 5-4 > Sharpy
Sharpy 3-0 > Mr. E
Sharpy 4-3 > Fatality (Fatality won the first set 3-1, Sharpy won the second set 3-0)

Looks like we have our breakdown character for Dreamland folks. All future participates please sign the waiver of you would like to star in the next breakout. Don't be shy, I'm looking at you, Ganondorf.

That's pretty awesome though. But friendlies and actual matches are a different vein, completely different mental mind sets. Maybe Sharpy won't be able to keep strong during the actual bracket matches...Or even worse, they all got the download off Zard from those matches alone. A lot of people are rusty to Zard and maybe just need a few top level matches to adjust again. Like a new coat of oil on a bike chain.

 

[TDK]

Sharpy's set with Salem was relatively close, with Sharpy managing to keep up in neutral for a while, but Salem did take it 2-0.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Sharpy's set with Salem was relatively close, with Sharpy managing to keep up in neutral for a while, but Salem did take it 2-0.

Guess even the best Zard can't overcome a MU where he is a walking punching bag.

 

[Das Koopa]

Raito 2-1 ANTi

 

[MistressRemilia]

Considering the fact that AnTi hasn't been looking so clean lately, the fact that Raito's last tournament was quite good for him, and also that You3 was so close to beating MKLeo ( & Brood's win over ZeRo ofc ) , i wouldn't lose faith so quickly.
Definitly an upset if Raito happens to be out in winners tho.

Glad it happened, i can feel my predictions skills are getting quite good, at least better than Das Koopa's, xd.

 

[TDK]

Sharpy's out (Lost 0-2 to Captain Zack), but Bloodcross and his secondary Zard are still in, so the Zard dream isn't dead yet.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Almost rest in peace the Zard breakout dream

 

[Das Koopa]

Raito 3-2 Larry Lurr

 

[|RK|]

Can't remember the name of the dude saying Sonic's neutral wasn't one of the best... But I think I see it now. Sonic just looks like he has ways to force faster guesses... But unlike Diddy, Sheik, or even Rosa, it's not nearly as safe. Invincibility on spindash is too short to mean much vs certain characters.

 

[DunnoBro]

Sonic's neutral is one of the best, but it's also very linear. It's notably worse with platforms, and if it's another character with insane ground control (ROB, Megaman, etc)

Like in some MUs on FD/SV/TC there simply isn't a better neutral. (Specifically heavies as needles aren't as worth doing)

 

[PK Bash]

Anyone got a minute to explain to me why Sonic's neutral is perceived to be one of the best? Not trying to be a ****, I genuinely do not see it.
IMO his whiff-punish game is good, but expand the scope of neutral beyond that, and Sonic is kind of... Weak, really. (good character though, don't get me wrong. Weak isn't the right word but you get my point.)

I thought a lot of people overrated it because Sonic blows up people who press buttons and a lot of people press a lot of buttons, especially against Sonic because Sonic frustrates them.
But the quality of play and game knowledge in this thread is higher than average so if anyone's got anything to say to enlighten me, I'd really love to hear it.

 

[soniczx123]

Can't remember the name of the dude saying Sonic's neutral wasn't one of the best... But I think I see it now. Sonic just looks like he has ways to force faster guesses... But unlike Diddy, Sheik, or even Rosa, it's not nearly as safe. Invincibility on spindash is too short to mean much vs certain characters.

Hi :^)

 

[Rizen]

IMO Sonic has one of the best neutrals but maybe not the best. His burst options and speed can make you play a guessing game that he can react to and punish. I agree with DunnoBro, it's hurt by platforms and the less room sonic has the worse it gets.
I've said this before, look at Diddy's neutral: Dtilt frame 4 FAF 19, bananas, loooong Fair, grab conversions, a command grab burst flip. That's a contender for best neutral easy.
Sheik too: transcendent needles, amazing frame data, very low risk conversions.

If I had to choose just 1, I'd say Sheik's is the best but it's situational. Sheik is the most oppressive for the character I know best, Link, but that doesn't mean other characters have as much trouble.

 

[|RK|]

Sonic's neutral is one of the best, but it's also very linear. It's notably worse with platforms, and if it's another character with insane ground control (ROB, Megaman, etc)

Like in some MUs on FD/SV/TC there simply isn't a better neutral. (Specifically heavies as needles aren't as worth doing)

I suppose there isn't a long list of amazing neutral tools. But what I usually see (especially after 6WX vs Samsora) is while Diddy can hold a banana in hand and mix up from there, or Sheik can safely toss needles, or even Cloud can charge limit...

Sonic seems like he can't apply as much pressure safely. He always has to make that decision. If he's canceling spindashes against an opponent with, say, Peach fair or Mewtwo Shadow Ball, nothing happens at all if he hangs back. Hell, one of the reasons Tsu beat KEN was because he was able to consistently pivot grab spin dashes.

Though again, maybe there's not some huge list of powerful neutral tools, and so Sonic would still be one of the best by default. It still just looks worse than I thought, I guess.

Hi :^)

Yup lol

 

[Jaguar360]

Yoshidora looked like he was playing godlike at Sumbato last night, looking especially good against Komo's Sonic and Kei's Cloud, but his set against Komo's Cloud really showed the characters weaknesses. Dora was still playing out of his mind, but Cloud's range was just keeping him out for most of the game and just about all of his kills were edgeguards after Yoshi's jump was gone. Yoshi's recovery is really exploitable for characters like Cloud, Diddy, Bayo and Marth. To be fair though, I did notice that Yoshidora was double jumping around a lot, which he was probably doing for the heavy armor and to take advantage of Yoshi's amazing air mobility and Komo caught on to that once he switched to Cloud and managed to capitalize a couple times.

Yoshi still looks like a really good mid tier though in Yoshidora's hands, he can just get all over his opponents in certain matchups.

Here's the bracket and results for reference btw, since no one has posted:
http://challonge.com/Sumabato17T
Pools

Sumaboto 17 (223 entrants, Japan Kansai region)
1. Edge
2. Ron (?)
3. Ranai
4. ikep
5. Earth
5. Aki
7. Komorikiri (?)
7. Atelier
9. HIKARU
9. Sigma
9. Chanshu
9. Rizeasu (Went random)
13. Tatsutsuyo
13. Masha
13. Kie
13. Kuro

 

[TDK]

Yoshidora looked like he was playing godlike at Sumbato last night, looking especially good against Komo's Sonic and Kei's Cloud, but his set against Komo's Cloud really showed the characters weaknesses. Dora was still playing out of his mind, but Cloud's range was just keeping him out for most of the game and just about all of his kills were edgeguards after Yoshi's jump was gone. Yoshi's recovery is really exploitable for characters like Cloud, Diddy, Bayo and Marth. To be fair though, I did notice that Yoshidora was double jumping around a lot, which he was probably doing for the heavy armor and to take advantage of Yoshi's amazing air mobility and Komo caught on to that once he switched to Cloud and managed to capitalize a couple times.

Yoshi still looks like a really good mid tier though in Yoshidora's hands, he can just get all over his opponents in certain matchups.

Here's the bracket and results for reference btw, since no one has posted:
http://challonge.com/Sumabato17T
Pools

Sumaboto 17 (223 entrants, Japan Kansai region)
1. Edge
2. Ron (?)
3. Ranai
4. ikep
5. Earth
5. Aki
7. Komorikiri (?)
7. Atelier
9. HIKARU
9. Sigma
9. Chanshu
9. Rizeasu
13. Tatsutsuyo
13. Masha
13. Kie
13. Kuro

Add to Rizeasu, that's the only character we know for sure he took a game with.

I wonder what makes the Pit mains do so much better in Japan?

 

[HoSmash4]

The main threat of spin dash isn't full screen spin dashes by any means - it's about abusing the massive unreactable distance, I frames and sheer ability to whiff punish with Sonic's kit. This trait means sonic spin dash cancelling in mid range forces a reaction in some kind of form. If you jump and land with aerial, spin dash punishes, if you empty hop, he can shark you and grab your Landing or shorthop aerial it. If you stand still/walk, you give sonic the first roll in the unreactable zone.

If anything Sonic's weaknesses are no sub 120 easy bake kill confirms as well as weak direct shield pressure. He can defend himself upclose but he is no Little Mac or Sheik. Spin dash is incredibly toxic especially if he has a lead since he will dictate the pace of the game but it lacks the X factor of zss up b, Bayo witch time/cloud LCS, at the same time having some weaknesses in neutral

 

[DunnoBro]

Diddy's neutral is the overall best for sure.

He can play reactionary with banana
Aggressive with monkey flip
Wall with Fair/dtilt
Or just zoner with banana, nuts, etc.

Sheik only becomes an effective zoner at higher percents when needles aren't minus on hit
She plays a good reactionary game with grabs, but can't kill off that anymore
Walling generates very little advantage, only worth it at very high percents to just fish for ledge traps
Her aggression is great though

 

[FeelMeUp]

should be playing for aggressive pressuring mixups against MOST every non-top tier character. There are very few exceptions. Most of the cast can't deal with her high safety high reward smothering gameplay style. Against certain top tiers with even higher rewards or stellar neutrals() passive walk-based gameplay with a lot of needles is much better. I won't say that needles aren't good against worse characters, but there's not a strong case for using them nowadays. You get so much more off of hitting their shield and forcing them to deal with your blinding fast hitboxes, OoS game, and shield crossups.
A good safe aggressive Sheik can't really be dealt with if you play someone with bad data. If you see one of us in bracket and happen to play a character with a dreadful matchup against her like , hope to god that they try camping you.

 

[HoSmash4]

Can we take a moment to talk about Raito's performance?

Taking sets off
M2K
Anti
Wormynugget
Larry Lurr

And a respectable showing vs
Void and Dabuz

This character is by no means weak and despite killing very late it seems his neutral and sequence of traps is strong enough to give him the control to seal out stocks.

I previously thought Fox vs DHD was a bad story for DHD before playing it... It seems DHD might struggle the most with ether superior projectiles or a combination of speed and range

Definitely interested if real counterplay to DHD actually comes

 

[chaos11011]

Can we take a moment to talk about Raito's performance?

Taking sets off
M2K
Anti
Wormynugget
Larry Lurr

And a respectable showing vs
Void and Dabuz

This character is by no means weak and despite killing very late it seems his neutral and sequence of traps is strong enough to give him the control to seal out stocks.

I previously thought Fox vs DHD was a bad story for DHD before playing it... It seems DHD might struggle the most with ether superior projectiles or a combination of speed and range

Definitely interested if real counterplay to DHD actually comes

DandyPenguin beat M2K, not Raito.

Also Fox is still a bad MU. Most Fox players are conditioned through other MUs to play aggro and thats what makes the MU look even for DH bc DH punishes rush ins and, even tho we didnt see it, can break out of Utilt/Uair/Fair with Can (Fair and Uair has to be predicted)

If Fox uses lasers to flip can and carefully applies pressure with his speed, he wins. Most Fox players either just play their game (Larry) or focus too much on the projectiles (too many lasers, Shine). We saw Raito stand behind Can when Larry was laser camping. All you need is to flip it once and apply pressure cuz the Can is now in an awkward state. It stuns Can for a bit.

Duck Hunt's hardest match ups, in order:
Bayonetta, Cloud, Sheik = ROB, Link, and Shulk. Other semi toughies are Fox, Rosalina, and Pikachu, but theyre managable. (DH has other losing MUs but those are the most notable ones)

Also yes, DHs neutral is among one of the best in the game. It's the best of all the mid/low tiers imo and its on par with the high tier threats. Its the greatest quality of the character, along with being able to frame trap and cover in his defensive options (Can + Shield, break out of combos frame 1, intercept hoo haas with stray can, best spotdodge, good air dodge and roll)

 

[jet56]

Bit off topic, but a couple decent sized AZ tourneys happened over the past week.

Sink or Swim 28, Wednesday April 12 (42 entrants)
http://challonge.com/SOS28Smash4

1st - Mexicutioner
2nd - Coco
3rd - Cybrus
4th - Wulfn

Smashing 4 Discoveries 11, Saturday April 15 (40 Entrants)
http://challonge.com/S4DNR11S

1st - Stroder
2nd - Spearwing
3rd - Silver
4th - Luhtie

May or may not be worth mentioning, but AZ has been getting decent numbers last couple of tournies, with some strong players showing.

Das Koopa

 

[DunnoBro]

DH's neutral is good, but not one of the best. The inability to play reactive really hurts, his frame data is garbage and he gets nothing off grab (after mid-high percent). Thus he has to just zone hard.

If sheik, diddy, fox, and mewtwo are S tier, duck hunt is around A-B

He's in the same boat as Bowser Jr, Pacman, Olimar, Wario, or Robin in that they're missing something from having a truly good neutral. In some cases it's speed, in others it's a grab, for Duck hunt it's potency.

Neutral isn't just the ability to connect and pressure. If it was, then mario's neutral would be great with fludd and fireballs. It's the ability to generate meaningful advantage while denying the opponent to do the same. And duck hunt's neutral wins don't... Really matter until they're finally dead or at can/utilt percent.

The neutral is effected heavily by the ability to kill, options change, what was

 

[Skeeter Mania]

DH's neutral is good, but not one of the best. The inability to play reactive really hurts, his frame data is garbage and he gets nothing off grab. Thus he has to just zone hard.

If sheik, diddy, fox, and mewtwo are S tier, duck hunt is around A-B

He's in the same boat as Bowser Jr, Pacman, Olimar, Wario, or Robin in that they're missing something from having a truly good neutral. In some cases it's speed, in others it's a grab, for Duck hunt it's potency.

Neutral isn't just the ability to connect and pressure. If it was, then mario's neutral would be great with fludd and fireballs. It's the ability to generate meaningful advantage while denying the opponent to do the same. And duck hunt's neutral wins don't... Really matter until they're finally dead or at can/utilt percent.

The neutral is effected heavily by the ability to kill, options change, what was once worth becomes risky.

That reminds me, what would your tier list look like in terms of ranking neutral games?

 

[DunnoBro]

That reminds me, what would your tier list look like in terms of ranking neutral games?

It's hard to say. Rage changes things.

Dk at 120 you're at 60? His neutral just became S tier. He baired you and now you're at 80 (out of ding dong percent)? Back to D tier.

Mario at game start? Can't get much off grab without rage, dair won't auto-connect without rage so he has no cross-up option. Mario's losing at like 140%?
Dair works, FLUDD becomes strong as hell and demands an approach, and better hope to christ you're not on a platform stage or a grab could be death at any percent.

Don't even get me started on Lucario.

Diddy, Bayo, Fox, etc never really change their plan so they're easy to place.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

It's hard to say. Rage changes things.

Dk at 120 you're at 50? His neutral just became S tier. He baired you and now you're at 70 (out of ding dong percent)? Back to D tier.

Mario at game start? Can't get much off grab without rage, dair won't auto-connect without rage so he has no cross-up option. Mario's losing at like 140%?
Dair works, FLUDD becomes strong as hell and demands an approach, and better hope to christ you're not on a platform stage or a grab could be death at any percent.

Don't even get me started on Lucario.

Diddy, Bayo, Fox, etc never really change their plan so they're easy to place.

I think you're misusing the term of neutral.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think you're misusing the term of neutral.

Maybe, overall I just don't have any decent idea of the true neutral level of most the casts neutral to begin with.

 

[-Tornado-]

Samsora 3-1 VoiD

 

[HoSmash4]

I like the idea you're trying to convey across DunnoBro , does advantage begin once you touch an opponent or does it begin once you can act after your true combo/hit?

 

[chaos11011]

DH's neutral is good, but not one of the best. The inability to play reactive really hurts, his frame data is garbage and he gets nothing off grab (after mid-high percent). Thus he has to just zone hard.

If sheik, diddy, fox, and mewtwo are S tier, duck hunt is around A-B

He's in the same boat as Bowser Jr, Pacman, Olimar, Wario, or Robin in that they're missing something from having a truly good neutral. In some cases it's speed, in others it's a grab, for Duck hunt it's potency.

Neutral isn't just the ability to connect and pressure. If it was, then mario's neutral would be great with fludd and fireballs. It's the ability to generate meaningful advantage while denying the opponent to do the same. And duck hunt's neutral wins don't... Really matter until they're finally dead or at can/utilt percent.

The neutral is effected heavily by the ability to kill, options change, what was

I mean, he can still get stuff off of grab til 110ish. Throw into reverse Can into aerial Uair can kill til 110 with proper foxtrots and ping management. Even without technical B presses while moving, you still have Can pingpong til 90 for kill. You just need to be technical for the extra 20% reach.

Nair, Can, and PP Jab let you play reactionairy. Theyre all really fast. Even still, what you lack in reactionary responses, Can can easily force options and you can oppressively punish.

I'm not sure how much you've been playing DH since youve dropped him, but a lot of what Raito did was reactionary. Utilting Anti's Mario Nair. Raito against Eim last month in JP with FSmash microspacing against Sheik FAir (FSmash causes DH to duck back, i've also reacted to dash ins to anticipate dash grabs and fsmashed them to make them whiff)

 

[DunnoBro]

I mean, he can still get stuff off of grab til 110ish. Throw into reverse Can into aerial Uair can kill til 110 with proper foxtrots and ping management. Even without technical B presses while moving, you still have Can pingpong til 90 for kill. You just need to be technical for the extra 20% reach.

Nair, Can, and PP Jab let you play reactionairy. Theyre all really fast. Even still, what you lack in reactionary responses, Can can easily force options and you can oppressively punish.

I'm not sure how much you've been playing DH since youve dropped him, but a lot of what Raito did was reactionary. Utilting Anti's Mario Nair. Raito against Eim last month in JP with FSmash microspacing against Sheik FAir (FSmash causes DH to duck back, i've also reacted to dash ins to anticipate dash grabs and fsmashed them to make them whiff)

Throw into can isn't too consistent, can needs to be in good spots and about fresh.

Can requires set-up so it isn't reactionary at all.
Nair is slow with low range... It only works as a stuffing option. It may look reactionary at times but it rarely is, at least from neutral.
Jab is okay but again it's mostly stuffing

Raito was absolutely not reactionary, he was zoning like hell. That utilt was set up from anti avoiding the can.

By reactionary, I mean a character that can just sit and wait for a punish opportunity like Bowser, Diddy, Marth, Fox, etc. Duck hunt doesn't have the frame data for that, he has to have a set-up and force approaches.

Note though, "Zoning" is essentially just "Reactionary in regards to the projectile."

 

[TheRabidChipmunk]

I like the idea you're trying to convey across DunnoBro , does advantage begin once you touch an opponent or does it begin once you can act after your true combo/hit?

I think threat of advantage is a big part of a character's neutral, and for a case study you can look at Bowser. His neutral game hasn't changed between patches, but the fact that dashing in has a meaningful threat behind it now means it's an option to be respected.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Define the neutral.

Do you mean in terms of who's neutral converts to their win condition/advantage state consistently? Or who has the tools to respond to any option? A character that can approach a match in several different ways and has different variables to their game?

IMO it's a combination of the two and in that regard Diddy and Sheik are the only answer as to who is S tier when it comes to neutral.

 

[TDK]

CEO: Dreamland (376 Entrants) (Florida)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Mr. R
3rd: Nairo
4th: Dabuz
5th: Samsora
5th: ESAM
7th: VoiD
7th: Marss
9th: Raito
9th: 6WX
9th: Captain Zack
9th: ScAtt
13th: ANTi
13th: Static Manny
13th: Rich Brown
13th: Larry Lurr
17th: Ookami
17th: Cashmere
17th: Blank
17th: Salem
17th: ZD
17th: Bloodcross
17th: Wormynugget
17th: Xzax
25th: Child
25th: Saj
25th: Karna
25th: NAKAT
25th: Rideae
25th: Player-1
25th: JJROCKETS
25th: Tweek

Fatality, Dyr and MVD got 33rd, Day got 49th, Mr. E got 65th, and M2K got 97th.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

CEO: Dreamland (376 Entrants) (Florida)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Mr. R
3rd: Nairo
4th: Dabuz
5th: Samsora
5th: ESAM
7th: VoiD
7th: Marss
9th: Raito
9th: 6WX
9th: Captain Zack
9th: ScAtt
13th: ANTi
13th: Static Manny
13th: Rich Brown
13th: Larry Lurr
17th: Ookami
17th: Cashmere
17th: Blank
17th: Salem
17th: ZD
17th: Bloodcross (I'm not sure on the Zard, Wiki says he uses Fox/Diddy over Zard and he didn't get any onstream time. Fox is a given, Diddy is likely, Zard not sure)
17th: Wormynugget
17th: Xzax
25th: Child
25th: Saj
25th: Karna
25th: NAKAT
25th: Rideae
25th: Player-1
25th: JJROCKETS
25th: Tweek

Fatality, Dyr and MVD got 33rd, Day got 49th, Mr. E got 65th, and M2K got 97th.

Pretty sure ZeRo won a couple of matches in pools with Lucy.

 

[NotLiquid]

Really impressed by ESAM and Samsora this tournament. The former seems to be making a bit more of a comeback despite a seemingly poor character matchup against Diddy holding him back and the latter marks the second time in a week where Samsora has managed to take Peach into Top 8 at a stacked tournament.

6WX and Raito deserve credit as well for doing some next level stuff with their characters. Sonic still feels like he's getting stuffed too much but 6WX is getting closer to KEN levels in terms of his ability to dictate neutral. Raito as well bringing Duck Hunt this far was impressive.

I guess I can kinda see why ANTi wants to drop Mario after his recent showings but I just get the sense that he's way too inconsistent as a player lately. Used to be one of the most explosive players but I don't get that same drive from him as I do Ally.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I don't know anyone else think Salem is another player suffering from consistency issues as well? He still does very well at smaller competitions but he seems to falter more at majors. Correct me if I'm wrong but his losses to Marss and ANTI and dreamland were considered upsets right?

At this point Zack really seems like a contender over Salem for top Bayo main if he keeps outperforming Salem at majors as much as he has been

 

[|RK|]

Honestly... watching ESAM vs ZeRo, I genuinely don't think it's a bad MU for Pika. And I'm sure ESAM (and probably MVD) would say the same. ESAM is genuinely getting outplayed.

Missed thunder confirms, ZeRo avoiding all but one edgeguard (which I'm sure ESAM is proficient at), and ZeRo just slapping him up in neutral (since he can't ledge trap Pika). One thing someone else pointed out to me is that ESAM keeps trying to camp as if ZeRo isn't more patient than him...

 

[T4ylor]

TDK Bloodcross did use Zard, check Esam's twitter if you want confirmation.

Edit: tfw Sharpy wasn't even the highest placing Zard ;~;