Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[TDK]

Meanwhile, in Kuwait...

XF0 2-0 Mr. R

Mr. R literally lost round 1

 

[Iron Kraken]

Lucario seems like a brutal matchup for Sheik for obvious reasons.

Although even putting the matchup aside, I think Lucario is at least as good of a character as Sheik anyway, but that's obviously an unpopular opinion.

 

[|RK|]

Meanwhile, in Kuwait...

XF0 2-0 Mr. R

Mr. R literally lost round 1

Uh, who? What tournament. Mr. R's last tweets are about cereal.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sheik is an amazing character and I do believe she has the best matchup spread - and by defiition is the best character int he game but having a weak win condition vs a lot of relevent characters... hurts.

 

[TDK]

Uh, who? What tournament. Mr. R's last tweets are about cereal.

He's ranked #8 on the Kuwait PR. He's actually waiting in Losers Semis of this tournament:

http://challonge.com/nemesis17

Remaining people:
SSS
Madara
XF0
Mr. R

 

[my_T]

Samus still being underrated I see, by DK players of all people. smh

 

[FeelMeUp]

Samus is great now compared to before. Girl's got a lot of cheese with pretty good frame data and a respectable damage output. Big hitboxes, an "approach me" tool, great zair, one of the best combo starters out there.
Recovery's not so bad, either.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Sheik is an amazing character and I do believe she has the best matchup spread - and by defiition is the best character int he game but having a weak win condition vs a lot of relevent characters... hurts.

Sheik would likely be the best character in the game in rage did not exist in Smash 4. The fact that Sheik gets such little milage out of it compared to many other top tiers and relevant threats also hurts her.

Sheik is also may be the best on paper, but you also got to factor that is she needs to win in neutral much more than many other characters and is one of the most taxing characters to play at top level for extended periods of time all means you cannot factor human error out of Sheik's competitive potential
as we saw with Mr.R vs HIKARU at Civil War. Making mistakes or even losing neutral once at the wrong time can be fatal for Sheik vs characters that can take stocks early off a single punish or conversion

 

[RonNewcomb]

You must've misinterpreted my reasoning. The reason DK loses TL isn't because ding dong works for a measly 3%. No, the keep away game he has is what makes him win it. GW doesn't have a keep away game DK must respect. His lingering aerials ain't nothing to DK. In a game where GW was stronger and DK was slightly weaker in so much that he didn't have ding dong (Brawl), it was considered evenish. In this game where ding dong is actually a lot more flexible than you think it is, yeah DK don't worry. Nair lingers, but his tilts don't care. Again, no numbers but I say that DK wins or at worst, even. Hikaru says otherwise for some reason. I don't know what or where that reasoning belies, but yeah. Being in high school, he hasn't explored more US Tourneys yet to see how he can expand the meta.

I didn't mean to imply G&W having great zoning or beating DK in the same way that TL does, I just put a lot of weight on ding-dong not working in a DK MU. He reverts to being an underwhelming character without it, and G&W's edgeguarding is much stronger in 4 than in Brawl. G&W has better aerials, quicker smashes, better edgeguarding, better throw comboes, top-tier aerial weaving, better damage racking in the DK MU. DK has tilts, weight, and a lightweight opponent. I can see why Hikaru places him so. If the G&W is as precise as Japan players tend to be, then yeah. I can see it.

On the topic of / ... Link has to camp for his life.

Though I agree that camping would've been a good idea, you can't really camp a character who runs faster than you. See also Link vs Marth. DK can bair boomerangs for free.

There's a reason DK don't take people to BF for this MU. You would rather punish a Link on a a flat stage as it yields better results. DK just will play CQC if camping is detected. Legit, stay in a slow Zoners face if they want to zone.

This has been my experience as well.

I'd guess the MU is about even, could possibly be +1 for either of them. Link might be able to wall DK out somewhat with Zairs and all of his projectiles while staying kinda safe with a lot of shieldstun on his scary attacks everywhere.
Ding Dong is a huge threat for Link, though. Like most characters with a rather big window on when it works.

Unless you camp on platforms to get bair'd or uair'd from DK you'll be at a disadvantage in that match because grabs are so easy for DK to get.

Hikaru has it slight advantage DK's favor, which seems about right.

 

[TDK]

Nemesis (Kuwait) (32 Entrants)

1st: Mr. R
2nd: Madara
3rd: SSS
4th: XF0

 

[Iron Kraken]

Sheik would likely be the best character in the game in rage did not exist in Smash 4. The fact that Sheik gets such little milage out of it compared to many other top tiers and relevant threats also hurts her.

Sheik is also may be the best on paper, but you also got to factor that is she needs to win in neutral much more than many other characters and is one of the most taxing characters to play at top level for extended periods of time all means you cannot factor human error out of Sheik's competitive potential
as we saw with Mr.R vs HIKARU at Civil War. Making mistakes or even losing neutral once at the wrong time can be fatal for Sheik vs characters that can take stocks early off a single punish or conversion

Exactly. Smash players are not cyborgs manufactured in laboratories. Human error defines the game. You can't win unless you're capitalizing on the mistakes of your opponent. I just don't see Sheik as the top-top character that other people do. It's really hard to just keep playing with near perfection for an entire tournament, which Sheik pretty much demands ever since the nerf to her 50-50 kill throw. She just doesn't have the reliable kill options that other top tiers have. And even with near perfect play, I still think Sheik has some losing matchups. Top Sheiks almost never beat top Rosalinas, for example.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Alright. I'm getting tired of people saying that.

There's a very.....strange misconception people have about

You don't need to play "perfectly" all the time when she easily coasts you through every gamestate. Weight nerfs made her easier to cheese and kill but harder to combo, yet despite that her ability to carry players through certain areas of the game was never changed.
The only time playing perfectly matters is when you're almost at risk of dying off a hit or are faced with the time to close out stocks.
Examples of common risk percents where you're a hit away from dying or are potentially about to get cheesed are:
55% vs
80-85% vs rage
55% or 110% vs
95-105% vs
15-25% or 40-45% vs
63-89% vs
etc.
Similar to above ~110-120%, Sheik past setup death % she becomes the hardest character in the game to kill.
She can now easily live until 130-160% because centerstage stray hits usually won't kill and the opponent needs to take monumental risks to gradually chip away at stage control and eventually strip the life off of you.

Think about it: If Sheik needed to play perfectly all the time, would she be the monster of a character that top 8s nearly every relevant tournament since this game's conception? Doesn't that sound a little stupid when combined with the "humans aren't robots" statement?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Jab grab is hella easy on Samus also. (...) The window is hella large on Samus too.

In the vids I linked I show jab-grab is not true vs. a Samus who knows how to DI it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZbHOav7iuQ&feature=youtu.be#t=19
DI/SDI in and down, Samus has enough time to land and get off jab 1 before DK can get his grab (which is frame 8). This is hard AF to do, no mistaking it, the only reason I could pull it off reflexively is because the d-tilt is a tell.
Also cargo up-smash is not guaranteed vs. floaties, Samus included, she can AD out of it (and cancel the AD into z-air incidentally). Samus' combo (timing) window is actually small because she's floaty but her hurtbox is extended in certain hitstun animations to make her much larger than a similarly proportioned character.

On the whole I agree with other people's comments, I feel Samus is mid-tier, lower end of mid tier just waiting for that homing missile buff to push into high. And yes that n-air buff was very very welcome.

 

[Y2Kay]

Samus reminds of Mewtwo, as they both use their strong zoning games to convert into high damage combos. Mewtwo's zoning tools are more oppressive, he has higher mobility, and a better disadvantage though.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Alright. I'm getting tired of people saying that.

There's a very.....strange misconception people have about

You don't need to play "perfectly" all the time when she easily coasts you through every gamestate. Weight nerfs made her easier to cheese and kill but harder to combo, yet despite that her ability to carry players through certain areas of the game was never changed.
The only time playing perfectly matters is when you're almost at risk of dying off a hit or are faced with the time to close out stocks.
Examples of common risk percents where you're a hit away from dying or are potentially about to get cheesed are:
55% vs
80-85% vs rage
55% or 110% vs
95-105% vs
15-25% or 40-45% vs
63-89% vs
etc.
Similar to above ~110-120%, Sheik past setup death % she becomes the hardest character in the game to kill.
She can now easily live until 130-160% because centerstage stray hits usually won't kill and the opponent needs to take monumental risks to gradually chip away at stage control and eventually strip the life off of you.

Think about it: If Sheik needed to play perfectly all the time, would she be the monster of a character that top 8s nearly every relevant tournament since this game's conception? Doesn't that sound a little stupid when combined with the "humans aren't robots" statement?

I don't want to get too caught up in the term "perfectly." The term is not being used literally. Obviously, no one plays perfectly, and it's totally possible for a Sheik to win a super major without playing "perfectly." Instead of the term "perfectly," let's rephrase that to say that Sheik needs to play with more consistent precision than other top characters in order to achieve equivalent results.

I'm not saying Sheik isn't capable of winning any tournament. I just think it's a bit more difficult to do with her than several of the other top characters with more reliable kill options, which is why I don't think she's quite the top-top character that most people seem to think she is.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Hello, time traveler from the tail end of 2016. I'm glad you could join us in distant star date 2017, I have a couple of tournaments to show you.

Oh no, don't start that sass with me. Go back even a couple of pages of this thread before Civil War and I distinctly remember a consistent trend of doom and gloom surrounding Rosalina, to the point where Dabuz seemed to consider dropping her.

 

[Laken64]

I'm not saying Sheik isn't capable of winning any tournament. I just think it's a bit more difficult to do with her than several of the other top characters with more reliable kill options, which is why I am of the opinion that she's not a top 5 character.

Just curious but who would you say is above in your opinion?

 

[Iron Kraken]

Just curious but who would you say is above in your opinion?

I think Sheik is on roughly on par with:

Characters I wouldn't be surprised to see ranked over her in the future:

Just one person's opinion though. Obviously Mr. R and Void continue to get good results even with post-patch Sheik, but I do think that has more to do with the players than the character.

 

[Luigi player]

Samus still being underrated I see, by DK players of all people. smh

If you're talking about me I have known about how good Samus can be as one of the firsts, since KayJay is living in the same city as I am and I have played against his Samus in a lot of MUs (Diddy, Luigi, Sonic, Mewtwo, DK, Mario, ..).

I was one of the first to tell people "Samus is likely Mid Tier material", after all her buffs, since I've seen what she can do by watching and playing KayJay. That was before people saw Icymist beating Dabuz and all that stuff that Samus has done lately.

She was definitely underrated a lot at that time still, but now it seems that that time is over and she's starting to get overrated.

Not saying she isn't a decently good character with some powerful tools, and if I read about 40+ % combos that would probably hurt a lot. And they start from a lot of openers? I can't watch videos atm, but that sounds pretty scary.

To be honest I definitely don't believe they should happen commonly, though. Sure, maybe you'll get in a dair once every match or once every 2-3 matches, but even then you need the correct %-window, a Charge Shot ready, and maybe it's even avoidable if you just tech the dair?
I've been hit by zair->stuff, dashattack->upB/uair, dair->nair, uairs->nair/fair, dthrow->fair or uthrow->uair and uairs->upB etc., so it's not like I don't know that Samus possibly has quite a few combos/followups. But SDI still works a bit against uair stuff.

KayJay was telling us that Samus wrecks DK and of course I knew that was bull.

Same thing happenend in Brawl, really. Where quiKsilver was telling me that Samus beat DK handily. Our MM was a pretty close 3-2 that I won, either of us could have won that though, but the point is the MU isn't free for Samus at all.
quiK was beating some Snakes with Brawl Samus (Bizkit I think in Bracket and even Ally in a MM, both at Apex 2013), so it's not like he wasn't a good Samus.
In Brawl you just needed to SDI her stuff and got out easily. Her uair was like the worst move ever since you could just get out of it immediately and possibly uair her for it or something lol.
It doesn't work like that anymore since it's harder to SDI, but it's still possible to mess up her followups a bit.
I also feel like DK wins the neutral against her and has an easy time keeping Samus in the air with bairs and uairs.
Of course the deciding factor is the Ding Dong which just too easily gets kills, though.
Having his run and (shield-)grab is just that good of an option and Samus can't just freely go for her own grabs (even if she could, she gains less than what DK does from hitting that).

I think the MU is around even, so it's not like I'm arguing that DK wins it (though tbh I don't think it would be impossible for him to win it considering how ridiculous Ding Dong is).

 

[Laken64]

Characters I wouldn't be surprised to see ranked over her in the future:

Just one person's opinion though. Obviously Mr. R and Void continue to get good results even with post-patch Sheik, but I do think that has more to do with the players than the character.

Personally I find hard to rate since he's such a weird character, but as for /, I don't believe they'll be top tier any time soon if at all, some top players think that Corrin is top tier for some reason (Ex Anti saying they're 11th) I think thats too far. I do believe that Corrin has a decent spread with most of the top tiers but I think high tier is good enough for him for now, or at least until Leo busts them out and gets legit wins/results on the board and Cosmos beings traveling outside of TX, then we'll see where Corrin goes in the future, but as of this moment corrin isn't even close to being a top tier imo.

 

[Man Li Gi]

In the vids I linked I show jab-grab is not true vs. a Samus who knows how to DI it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZbHOav7iuQ&feature=youtu.be#t=19
DI/SDI in and down, Samus has enough time to land and get off jab 1 before DK can get his grab (which is frame 8). This is hard AF to do, no mistaking it, the only reason I could pull it off reflexively is because the d-tilt is a tell.
Also cargo up-smash is not guaranteed vs. floaties, Samus included, she can AD out of it (and cancel the AD into z-air incidentally). Samus' combo (timing) window is actually small because she's floaty but her hurtbox is extended in certain hitstun animations to make her much larger than a similarly proportioned character.

On the whole I agree with other people's comments, I feel Samus is mid-tier, lower end of mid tier just waiting for that homing missile buff to push into high. And yes that n-air buff was very very welcome.

Jeez. Jab grab doesn't work that early. Jab sometimes doesn't even fully connect until 10%-15% for certain characters. Cargo usmash isn't guaranteed true, but cargo up b rawis. That tacks about 37%-44%. DK is sad character with many moves unsafe on hit like ftilt, jab, utilt, Nair, bair, dsmash, down b. He got the grab buff which made him usable, but hot damn, he's garbage. There's a problem with this game if people let DK be considered as good. At least the other grappler doesn't have DK problems.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Personally I find hard to rate since he's such a weird character, but as for /, I don't believe they'll be top tier any time soon if at all, some top players think that Corrin is top tier for some reason (Ex Anti saying they're 11th) I think thats too far. I do believe that Corrin has a decent spread with most of the top tiers but I think high tier is good enough for him for now, or at least until Leo busts them out and gets legit wins/results on the board and Cosmos beings traveling outside of TX, then we'll see where Corrin goes in the future, but as of this moment corrin isn't even close to being a top tier imo.

I don't disagree. That's why I don't put Corrin in my top tier yet; it's all theory at this point. I just believe in Corrin because of the tools he/she has. The mobility is bad, but so many of the attacks are stupid good. I have no doubt Cosmos would be showing great results with the character, the problem is he doesn't show up for tournaments. The other reason I'm looking for Corrin to climb the tier list is because Leo has said he will be picking up the character. I have long felt that Corrin was just missing the right player to show off what he/she can do, and Leo couldn't be a better fit for correcting that.

 

[HoSmash4]

Samus reminds of Mewtwo, as they both use their strong zoning games to convert into high damage combos. Mewtwo's zoning tools are more oppressive, he has higher mobility, and a better disadvantage though.

Theres one massive difference though, Mewtwo is a lot more consistent at killing than Samus. This isnt just outside of the kill throw.

 

[|RK|]

He's ranked #8 on the Kuwait PR. He's actually waiting in Losers Semis of this tournament:

http://challonge.com/nemesis17

Remaining people:
SSS
Madara
XF0
Mr. R

Turns out the thing about cereal was more important

 

[TDK]

Turns out the thing about cereal was more important

Losing to a Lucario, Cereal, and now this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfA257oeUjg

It's just not Mr. R's day today.

 

[|RK|]

Losing to a Lucario, Cereal, and now this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfA257oeUjg

It's just not Mr. R's day today.

On this note, has anyone looked into why Mr. R gets janked out so often?

Also, Bouncing Fish looks worse as an escape option every time I see it tbh. Looking at that clip, I saw both Dabuz & Komo catch Mr. R for using Bouncing Fish. Don't get me wrong - it's amazing against lower tier characters, but it doesn't look like "free disadvantage" anymore against the meta-relevant characters. IDK.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

On this note, has anyone looked into why Mr. R gets janked out so often?

Also, Bouncing Fish looks worse as an escape option every time I see it tbh. Looking at that clip, I saw both Dabuz & Komo catch Mr. R for using Bouncing Fish. Don't get me wrong - it's amazing against lower tier characters, but it doesn't look like "free disadvantage" anymore against the meta-relevant characters. IDK.

Maybe its the same thing we see with people punishing ZeRo's Diddy monkey flips more. People are just beginning to figure it out its potential drawbacks and its not looking like a move they can just throw out anymore

It kinda makes sense since Both ZeRo and Mr.R gamestlye are all about controlling the neutral and conditoning the opponent to really be afraid to challenge them or try to mount any offense while in the neutral. Its oart of the reason why ZeRo gets away with so many punishable monkey flips.

However lately there have been players who have been respecting/fearing this sort of playstlye less and just going for opportunities to get into advantage more. Now we see many instances where people have been calling out and punishing ZeRo,s unsafe moves he has been getting away with before, and now we have more cases of players either getting close to or taking sets of him.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucario seems like a brutal matchup for Sheik for obvious reasons.

Although even putting the matchup aside, I think Lucario is at least as good of a character as Sheik anyway, but that's obviously an unpopular opinion.

What I tell you about dem drugs boi?

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/Mkleosb/status/850530935414165505

MKLeo says Corrin can be top 10.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

https://twitter.com/Mkleosb/status/850530935414165505

MKLeo says Corrin can be top 10.

Just like he said that Zard was top 15, I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is a little too much.

 

[Deleted member]

https://twitter.com/Mkleosb/status/850530935414165505

MKLeo says Corrin can be top 10.

News flash: Top player has outlandish opinion.

Next.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

News flash: Top player has outlandish opinion.

If ESAM is anything to go by...

 

[FeelMeUp]

BF is still a free disadvantage tool.
Difference most fail to notice is that you have to think about it a little more when playing against the good swordies. Mr. R autopilots BF frequently, which is where most of his damage and deaths come from.
Look at the difference between the way Mr. R and VoiD use it to mix up landings vs MKLeo and ZeRo to see what I mean.

 

[K~SAN]

Samus is great now compared to before. Girl's got a lot of cheese with pretty good frame data and a respectable damage output. Big hitboxes, an "approach me" tool, great zair, one of the best combo starters out there.
Recovery's not so bad, either.

Samus's recovery is one of the best... she's got so many tools to help her get back on stage there's no point trying to edge guard her lol

She's always been a good character.. only difference now is that people are finally learning how to use her.

To be honest most of the negatives misconceptions about her are from inexperienced players that don't actually know how to use her properly. These players end up reporting back to the community claiming she's weak and needs buffs etc

But take for example from the most recent tourney's you got Esam who beat the best freaking Mario in the world and Salem pulling her out and performing extremely well at top level.

These guys just prove to the world how good she can be... it only gets better from here

 

[HoSmash4]

BF is still a free disadvantage tool.
Difference most fail to notice is that you have to think about it a little more when playing against the good swordies. Mr. R autopilots BF frequently, which is where most of his damage and deaths come from.
Look at the difference between the way Mr. R and VoiD use it to mix up landings vs MKLeo and ZeRo to see what I mean.

Best example:
https://clips.twitch.tv/GlamorousSincerePassionfruitDancingBaby

Basically BF is really good, a lot of Sheiks will use it a lot because they want to avoid the landing trap immediately but the opponent predicts it then a lot of times they will get shook.

Mr.R gets bodied for a few reasons:
1. Not the best top player under pressure
2. Sheik low weight and rage
3. Sheik has low range compared to other top tiers and the worst raw damage so she loses any trades so resorting to defensive options when scared is really common.
4. Smash 4

 

[Laken64]

Just like he said that Zard was top 15, I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is a little too much.

Tbh the only reason he thinks that imo is one of the best in Mexico is his relative Serge, who I really want to see get his Visa and travel to the US, because the guy can cause upsets with all his characters () also not to mention he double eliminated Leo, sending him to losers and beating him in cloud DITTOS in GF, ending his undefeated streak in mexico which Hyuga (PGR 22) or Javi couldn't do and could probably make the PGR if he puts in enough work.

 

[Frihetsanka]

https://twitter.com/Mkleosb/status/850530935414165505

MKLeo says Corrin can be top 10.

Better than characters like Ryu, Marth, Lucina, Mewtwo, and/or Mario? I think Corrin would, at best, be #14. Still, I'm happy to see him think that Corrin is top 10, that should probably increase the chance that he gives her a fair shot.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Tbh the only reason he thinks that imo is one of the best in Mexico is his relative Serge, who I really want to see get his Visa and travel to the US, because the guy can cause upsets with all his characters () also not to mention he double eliminated Leo, sending him to losers and beating him in cloud DITTOS in GF, ending his undefeated streak in mexico which Hyuga (PGR 22) or Javi couldn't do and could probably make the PGR if he puts in enough work.

I know. I am a bit of a fan of Serge myself(I enjoy watching his and ) and he is part of the reason I started using Link as a secondary, even if I am bad when it comes to managing his projectile game.

 

[mountain_tiger]

You mean like this...

Besides ZeRo and Komorikiri that tournament also included players such as Dabuz, MKLeo, CaptainZack, Salem, Ranai, Kameme, ESAM, Fatality, Tsu, etc. etc. etc.

And then the next week Dabuz won literally the most competitive Smash 4 tournament in history (47 of the top 50 PGR).

Just helping our time traveling 2016 buddies get caught up.

Where's Meta Knight when you need him, eh?

 

[|RK|]

Well, Leo may be backing up his words. Going all Corrin at a tournament in Mexico.