Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[YerTheBestAROUND]

For Mega Man's Matchup Spread:
:-1 (Could potentially be even in the future but it isn't looking like it right now)
:+1
:-1
:+1
:+1
:+1
:-1
:+1
:-1 or 0
:-2


And with High Tier:
:+1
:+1 (Maybe +2? I've heard that it might also be +2)
:-1 or 0
:+2
:+1
:0
:-1
: Unwinnable (Just like any other Ditto)

And for the people who consider high tier, they are all +2.

So it's a total of +2 to +4 (+8 to +10 if you add all three of as well) aganist the top and high tiers in total.

That is really good

So yea, I have no idea where Mega Man having a bad matchup spread came from. He has a really good matchup spread. Not to mention he does really good aganist the lower tiers too (Can't think of any he doesn't beat except maybe and , although I might be forgetting someone).

The main problems are that he is really hard and tiring to play, and that he has low representation.

Uhhh yeahh... Mega Man does not beat Cloud. There are only 2, maybe 3, characters that can have any sort of claim that they beat Cloud and they're Sheik, Bayonetta, and maybe Diddy Kong.

You shouldn't use zero shiek as an example for this. Zero didn't use all of shiek he played a shiek that relied on the now removed 50 50 setup. Zero dropped shiek when she no longer had that tactic. Don't think zero shiek helps your point.

Also when are we going to get to the point of acting like elegant's success against bayo is something only he can accomplish. Study his play and imitate it. He isn't the only one that can counter play that well.

ZeRo relied on needles, fair, and throw combos. The 50/50 was just icing on the cake. ZeRo has stated that the reason he doesn't use Sheik as much anymore is more due to the fair and needles range nerfs than the f/dthrow 50/50. If those two moves hadn't been nerfed I'd wager he'd still use Sheik and just fish for ftilts instead of grab or wait for uthrow 50/50 percents.

I swear whenever a character has a slight lull in results people are so quick to jump on the "X character sucked this whole time" train.

It's happened many times with , now look where we are.

Especially considering how we have almost a years worth of data thanks to Das Koopa's thread that has consistently shown Falcon to be around top 15 in terms of results, even when you factor out the lower level tournaments.
You guys argue for consistency all the damn time, but there's your consistency!

To be fair though, it really isn't a slight lull in Mega Man's case. Mega Man hasn't done anything crazy notable since EVO, which was 9 months ago. Pretty big gap.

Tell me how Peach consistently stops Cloud, Marth and MK.

Then we can talk about her rising.

Oh, she can't?

Exactly.

Can't forget Diddy Kong either.

 

[FamilyTeam]

For Mega Man's Matchup Spread:
And for the people who consider high tier, they are all +2.

So it's a total of +2 to +4 (+8 to +10 if you add all three of as well) aganist the top and high tiers in total.

Mate, I thought we had this conversation before a ****ton of times; Megaman for Marcina is Even. There is more to matchups than just "This character has a projectile and this one has difficulty with them, therefore said matchup is horrible".
This is why I don't like it when people try opinating about characters that they don't play.

 

[Iron Kraken]

This is random, but I really wish there was more representation.

I recall Leo saying he thought Charizard was top 15, and ZeRo also said he thinks he has the potential to be high tier.

Zard honestly has so much going for him. Incredible kill power, a great kill throw that becomes lethal with the aid of a platform, great tilts, an awesome jab, good recovery mix-ups, and a plethora of landing options. His options in disadvantage really set him apart from the other heavyweights. His weight, good recovery, and kill power probably allow him to take advantage of rage more than any other character in the game with the exception of Lucario. The things that seem to be missing as far as I can tell are a not-so-great grab game, a not-so-great combo game, a large hurtbox, and poor aerial mobility (although somewhat made up for by having a third jump). But it certainly seems like he has the positive attributes to make up for his weaknesses.

I feel like we're just missing that one person to showcase what Zard can do, similar to how other characters have risen to prominence because of that one player who brings them into the limelight.

Zard's also a solid pick against Cloud because of how easily he can stuff his recovery with Flamethrower and D-tilt.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Uhhh yeahh... Mega Man does not beat Cloud. There are only 2, maybe 3, characters that can have any sort of claim that they beat Cloud and they're Sheik, Bayonetta, and maybe Diddy Kong.

Well yeah, Cloud still has huge hitboxes and Limit Break, but Mega Man can still manage to keep Cloud at a safe range. I can call it an even MU, but considering how Cloud doesn't have an actually insane range, it can favor Mega Man a bit more.

And I already said it, but Mega Man goes even against most of the FE cast. I think Robin & Ike (and maybe Roy) are +1s, tho. Ike usually has a weird time approaching, Roy can have trouble breaking in (but his speed makes up for it), and Robin can't rely on his specials. His Levin Sword & items still hurt tho.

...But why are we even getting there ?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Uhhh yeahh... Mega Man does not beat Cloud. There are only 2, maybe 3, characters that can have any sort of claim that they beat Cloud and they're Sheik, Bayonetta, and maybe Diddy Kong.

Don't forget that even though zard goes at best even with Cloud he still outranges him with his tilts and edgeguards him effortlessly with flamethrower. Bowser can do this as well.

 

[|RK|]

BTW, I was confused when I saw the Kameme MU chart because I recall he thought Kirby won that MU. This is actually his most recent one (as of two hours ago):

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Locke 06]

There's only 1 frame of vulnerability on neutral getup if you buffer shield.

2framing is for ledge grabs.

Megaman is a good character.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Falcon / Mega Man ain't even close to being even. Just sayin'.

 

[|RK|]

I mean, to be fair, it's hardly "feature to feature" when both characters are fundamentally the same. Whether or not it came across that way or not, it was not intended to. I'll attempt to explain my point better here...

In short, Marth's moveset is centred around his ability to hit tippers; by this, I mean he has moves, staple to his success and kit (Jab and Dancing Blade), that are designed for use in neutral and punishes, and that are intended to set up and allow for easy tippers and KO's. Lucina has the same moves as Marth, but lacks the raw reward from these setups (I think Emblem Lord's recent post about the pair is also as notable if not more notable than what I am attempting to convey here actually, so I'll support what he said there).

Of course her raw punishes with Smashes are much better than Marth's (on most occasions; KO'ing somebody at 35% with tipper Fsmash because they chose the wrong getup option or chose the wrong recovery option after being trumped is kind of dumb), though this is nothing new whatsoever; we've always known this. The point I am getting at is that yes, while Lucina might not need to use the same moves as Marth to get the KO as he does, because she's fundamentally the same as him, it's not in her design to actually play different from him; she'll still be playing neutral almost identically, for example. When the opponent is at 80%, even though it can KO, Lucina isn't going to go around using her Fsmash in neutral, or to "space", because it's just not within their design to do that. She's still going to be going around spacing out the opponent like Marth will be, looking for that opening for an easy Jab or Dancing Blade for example. The difference here is that Marth can potentially KO from these confirms.

So yes, Lucina could hit the opponent at 80% and KO with an Fsmash, but Marth could use Dancing Blade and KO at the exact same percent (provided it tippers), and he can safely attempt to set up into his KO and not with a randy Fsmash or read attempt. It's more more a "I'll throw this out and hope it hits" situation. Damn good if it does hit mind; I certainly can't downplay that, but my point is that it's not practical, especially when you consider exactly how punishable the same move is. The point I was basically getting at is that Marth has easy and reliable confirms into his KO moves, Lucina does not (Yes, Nair 1 to Fsmash is a thing, but it's telegraphed, strict and heavily punishable by shield; Marth has the same but he can stutter step backwards into a tipper Fsmash, but we don't see Marth players going for this do we?).

Now this transitions back into one of my original points about Mr. E's playstyle. Mr. E is by far the most aggressive of the 4 notable Marth mains out there. I will admit that in recent times he has taken a few notes from Leo and is playing a little more patient/defensive, though it doesn't seem to be working as well, which might explain his recent thoughts about Lucina. Him playing his aggressive, up close playstyle might transition better into Lucina, because him pounding away at the opponent and using the Fsmash when the opponent goes into him for a punish might reap him more noticeable rewards (even if it is a playstyle that when put into context with the rest of their kit, is easily beaten by shield, though this is when we can start applying Shield Breaker mixups into the equation, but that's a whole other ball game).

Their kit essentially has many areas designed to set up for tipper rewards. That was my point. If Jab 1 to Fsmash was actually a true combo at said percents, then we might be talking about a whole different story, but it isn't; nowhere near true unfortunately, so she'll still be looking for the bread and butter stuff like Marth.

(and as a TL:DR to you personally |RK| , I appreciate the reply; good to get some non heated discussion going).

---
Though it's still barmy to me that players are actually taking Lucina seriously now! All it took was for a few top players to use her and low and behold, people suddenly like her.

I agree that they will primarily be playing neutral the same way, and I agree that Marth has safe confirms from neutral. Thing is, your point about Mr. E may be another plus for Lucina - she has versatility. She can be played defensively and more aggressively just as well. Marth, on the other hand, sacrifices a bit of the ability to be super aggressive for the necessary precision.

Many ledge trapping options work out just as well whether Lucina is spaced perfectly or not, because she always gets the same reward. Watching ZeRo at Ignition sort of cemented that for me - the opponent wasn't any safer from the blade regardless of where they were.

And then, I also can't understate the pure potential for raw punishes + Lucina's sliding jab confirms into dolphin slash. That said, I'm not quite sure what I'm saying here lol.

I think Lucina is quite a bit better than most people think, and not a downgrade from Marth. But that's something time will tell. On a related note, ZeRo is supposed to be at Ignition today as well - so maybe we'll see more?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

This is random, but I really wish there was more representation.

I recall Leo saying he thought Charizard was top 15, and ZeRo also said he thinks he has the potential to be high tier.

Zard honestly has so much going for him. Incredible kill power, a great kill throw that becomes lethal with the aid of a platform, great tilts, an awesome jab, good recovery mix-ups, and a plethora of landing options. His options in disadvantage really set him apart from the other heavyweights. His weight, good recovery, and kill power probably allow him to take advantage of rage more than any other character in the game with the exception of Lucario. The things that seem to be missing as far as I can tell are a not-so-great grab game, a not-so-great combo game, a large hurtbox, and poor aerial mobility (although somewhat made up for by having a third jump). But it certainly seems like he has the positive attributes to make up for his weaknesses.

I feel like we're just missing that one person to showcase what Zard can do, similar to how other characters have risen to prominence because of that one player who brings them into the limelight.

I believe it was Minordeth who pointed this out a while back, but it's easy to see why Leo and ZeRo think Charizard is good. It's because Charizard is really good at what they're good at: ledge trapping and getting your opponent to the ledge so you can ledge trap them.

EDIT:

Falcon / Mega Man ain't even close to being even. Just sayin'.

It really is though. Will go into details later if need be.

 

[TDK]

Mega's top tier mu spread looks closer to this (As of three hours ago, according to Kameme):

-1
+-0
-1
-1
+-0
-2
-2
-1
-1
-1
-1
+1

That's one winning matchup among the top tiers, two evens, and the rest losing. Take from that what you will, but it's in no way +1/+2 against most top and high tiers.

 

[Yonder]

BTW, I was confused when I saw the Kameme MU chart because I recall he thought Kirby won that MU. This is actually his most recent one (as of two hours ago):

There was a problem fetching the tweet

If they are faster and have a projectile, they **** on Luigi I guess. How the hell does Ganondorf do better vs Megaman than Luigi? I mean, I'm not staying Luigi wins at all, but he can at least combo the living bejessus out of Megaman when he gets in...Something Ganondorf can't do, and also block out some projectiles with his own fireball.

Also confused about Ness being 6:4. Someone explain that to me.

Bowser' tough guy is actually huge in this matchup (probably the only matchup sides the Luigi one where it is relevant...Maybe against Mac's jab too.)

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Ness can't grab because of Leaf Shield + Lemons, which means he loses half of his options. He still has good aerials, but his FAir & Dash Attack just get stuffed by lemons, since they are transcendent. And Mega Man can't try to get in on Ganon without commiting to anything, which means that one wrong move can cost you a stock. That and Stale Lemons don't stop Wizard Foot. Fireball isn't exacly relevant due to the sheer amount of projectiles Mega Man can use in a short period of time (read lemons, again >_<' ).

I don't know, in all the Ganon vs Mega Man matches I saw (and played), Ganon has an insane fear factor, which is something Luigi lacks, despite having one of the best punish moves in the game.

Oh, and fun fact, Leaf Shield goes through Tough Guy once Bowser takes 20% XD

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Can some Mega or Bowser explain how the Mu is this bad für Bowser? Or is this just Kameme?

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Well, I guess it's because as soon as the Mega Man player is able to abuse the fact that his Metal Blade can be thrown in 8 Directions, he can more or less make Bowser's life a real pain. And considering how huge Bowser's Frame is, you can bet that he's going to get hit by a lot of things. If he didn't have Tough Guy, his life would have been even worse.
Between Leaf Shield doing its things and giving you easier grabs (beware of UpB OOS tho) and Metal Blade being Metal Blade, Bowser already has a hard time landing, which doesn't help when Mega Man's UAir, Bair & USmash can cover so many options. And edgeguarding him isn't too difficult, althrough he can still play with how high he recovers.

What I find sad is that you can play your game perfectly, but as soon as Bowser finda a way in, he's simply going to make you have a bad time... I mean, Mega Man being a Fastfaller means that he is that much more vunerable to the good ol' Koo-Pah, and Bowser's Good Dash Speed helps him close the gap, but Mega Man can always retreat and throw a Metal Blade again...

I'd make it a +-0 or a -1 for Mega Man personally, because god knows how much damage a good Bowser could do, but soo far I guess I'll just wait&see.

 

[BSP]

You can't say Megaman, or any character for that matter, gets most of their success through the opponents' inexperience.

I don't think anyone is trying to say that X character wins only or mostly because the opponents don't know the MU. As you said, that is disrespectful to anyone who plays said character(s) that is/are accused of riding on MU inexperience.

At the same time however, I would argue it can be significant factor to how results turn out. Just how much of a factor is it? I don't think anyone wants to do a case by case basis for every match, but that would likely give us an answer.

Counterplay is developed for strong characters usually only after they've done well in tourney, which is the problem. This concept of not preparing for a tornado and then shrugging after getting blown back, because "I didn't know what a tornado could do," holds players back.

This is a good point. I would say everyone in smash 4's roster has something going for them that competitors need to be ready for and prepared to counter. Ignorance is not a valid excuse.

That being said, this game is chocked full of characters and is loaded with tons of information. It'd be a stretch to assume that every top player knows every intricacy of every MU they run into. Thus, I wouldn't blame people for initially being skeptical of players' handle on the MU when breakout results happen.

This is why consistency is the main thing to look at anyway, how a character performs when people are aware of their stronger tools.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Diamond Octobot I'm not really a fan in comparing characters like that but doesn't everything you mentioned also is true for dk? Why is he 50:50 then?

 

[adom4]

If they are faster and have a projectile, they **** on Luigi I guess. How the hell does Ganondorf do better vs Megaman than Luigi? I mean, I'm not staying Luigi wins at all, but he can at least combo the living bejessus out of Megaman when he gets in...Something Ganondorf can't do, and also block out some projectiles with his own fireball.

Also confused about Ness being 6:4. Someone explain that to me.

Bowser' tough guy is actually huge in this matchup (probably the only matchup sides the Luigi one where it is relevant...Maybe against Mac's jab too.)

I haven't played the MU too much but from what i've played Megaman just really sucks at landing vs Ganon since wizkick beats Lemons and leaf shield.
Also Ganon can combo MM pretty bad, Dash attack does a good number on Megaman because of his weight and fall speed.
in general he's really vulnerable in disadvantage vs Dorf & killing Ganon without an edgeguard can be kind of rough for him, he had a close set with Pon a while back so maybe that influenced it somewhat.

 

[verbatim]

Something to note on matchup experience. Matchup inexperience isn't something to be counted on, but it is a passive thing that benefits some characters more than others.

A top player can lose to Megaman, spend the next month practicing the matchup, and yet when they play them again, they will still undoubtedly be more comfortable against Cloud, or Sheik, or Bayonetta, etc, than they are against Megaman. That's not to say that they can't be "ready", it's just that they'd of been more "ready" if they lost to a Cloud, took a month to practice, and got their rematch.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Diamond Octobot I'm not really a fan in comparing characters like that but doesn't everything you mentioned also is true for dk? Why is he 50:50 then?

I actually consider DK to be a +1... His hitboxes are huge and need to be respected, but most of them clank with Lemons. DK just gets walled hard, and unlike Bowser, he has no real way through lemons aside from his UpB, which is extremely punishable.
The one thing he has for him is that his attacks have some huge range & his grab game + Ding Dong, but then again DK will have a hard time getting through Mega Man's projectile wall. His Full Charge Giant Punch has Super Armor tho, so you never know.

P.S.: If anyone with MU experience comes by, I'd like to know your opinion... My point of view might not be completely accurate...


Just going to post this here for no reason. Thanks @Jester Kirby

 

[ShadowGuy1]

MKLeo has said on twitter that he is picking up Corrin. Is he dropping Marth? Either way it would be a huge advancement for the Corrin meta to have a player that travels more often then the other 3(Frozen, Cosmos, and Ryuga)

 

[Laken64]

MK Leo said he will be using Corrin in tournaments, probably as another secondary
https://twitter.com/Mkleosb/status/849782530446438400
'd lol

 

[PK Bash]

Also confused about Ness being 6:4. Someone explain that to me.
)

This is quite a common opinion among Ness players and I think it's popular among Mega Man players too.
If you can safely deal with Ness air-to-air or anti-air him, you probably do fairly well in the matchup. It's not a coincidence that his worst matchups (think Marth, Cloud) are able to consistently beat Ness air-to-air and/or have good anti-air options vs him. (note: this is obviously not the only reason why Marth and Cloud win.) Pellets allow Mega Man to do this to a lesser extent, albeit with significantly less reward per hit.
Nair can clank with pellets but generally is not that great at dealing with them. Pellets don't completely invalidate his neutral though, contrary to popular belief Ness does actually have a perfectly functional neutral game.
(PSI Magnet is not a valid way of dealing with pellets. Everyone probably worked that out themselves but just in case.)

https://ssbworld.com/watch/?v=JS5_2ZrndZo
This was the highest level example of the matchup I could find without too much digging. FOW is a little bit off the ball in this set imo but ScAtt plays well and I think it does a good job of showing some common situations.

Notice the pace of neutral. ScAtt set it for basically the entire set. This isn't uncommon for Ness matchups (playing Ness vs most characters is like playing Black in Chess), but FOW was unable to force many situations as pellets denied many of his options. Pellets are very very good at controlling the zone Ness wants to be in. Fortunately, pellets are quite low reward and don't put Ness in a terrible position, compared to something like eg Marth's tipper, which is also very good at controlling Ness' ideal zone.

Ness is really strong at the ledge, assuming he has the opponent between himself and the ledge obviously. It's something I don't think he gets enough credit for but maybe that's just me. Anyway ScAtt showed that Mega Man is able to somewhat safely relieve Ness' ledge pressure on a few different occasions. However, Mega Man does not escape the ledge for free. Ness has enough viable options in this situation to press the advantage further should Mega Man decide to press A at the wrong time or place or make an otherwise poor decision.

Ness' OOS game is another one of his most significant strengths but low-commitment pellets neuter that as well. FOW didn't go for too many aerials out of shield because most of the time they won't do much for him and it's not really worth trying, because Mega Man is fairly good at dealing with Ness air-to-air. Of course pellets are low reward so it isn't as bad as it could be. You're probably noticing a pattern here.

Despite Mega Man being very good at keeping Ness out, it isn't a complete blow out. Mega Man does not have the resources to keep Ness out forever. The resources he does have are not that scary really. Ness may not get in much, but - and a lot of people seem to forget this when talking about how hard their character allegedly beats Ness even though everyone knows it - he doesn't need to get in very often.

I hope that clears it up for you. Imo 6:4 is pretty reasonable.

Some other interesting things about the matchup / set:
Leaf Shield is a niche option. ScAtt only really uses it when Ness is high in the air, is committed to something or otherwise can't do anything. He doesn't use it that much in game 1, and even less in game 2. Using Leaf Shield gives Ness some breathing room.

It's interesting that both lived until really high %, except for those first couple of stocks game 2. Ness is normally pretty good at closing out stocks obviously but he's usually doing it straight from a hit in neutral or the ledge, Mega Man is good at denying those options.

Maybe somebody who happens to know can confirm for me if Ness can do the same thing Lucas can do with PSI Magnet that stops him dying to Air Shooter regardless of %? (No it's nothing to do with absorbing it) If you know either way I'll love you forever. I can't see why Ness' wouldn't do this as well, but I never knew for sure and I can't test it.

 

[Frihetsanka]

MKLeo has said on twitter that he is picking up Corrin. Is he dropping Marth? Either way it would be a huge advancement for the Corrin meta to have a player that travels more often then the other 3(Frozen, Cosmos, and Ryuga)

Cosmos might start traveling more as well, so this could really help Corrin get some more exposure at majors.

Imagine if MKLeo decides to pretty much solo-play Corrin at a stacked major, say EVO 2017. Imagine if he wins it (which is fairly plausible, Corrin's MU spread is very good overall and even the bad MUs aren't terrible).

I imagine we'd see a lot of "Corrin is top tier" in this thread (and ZeRo would probably push that too, ESAM is already pushing it). It'd be funny, seeing how some people argue that Corrin is just a mid tier. I don't think she's a top tier nor a mid tier, but rather a high tier.

I also don't think MKLeo will actually main Corrin (though it'd be nice if he did, since Corrin games are super hype to watch, in my opinion), I imagine he'd use Corrin instead of Meta Knight and/or Cloud. I wonder if he will drop one of them or if he'll stick with four characters? I'd be a little sad to see his Meta Knight go, though I personally prefer watching Corrin. We'd still have komorikiri, Ned, Tweek, and Mew2King as far as PGR'd Cloud players go.

Anyway. MKLeo picking up Corrin could help justify her high placement, although I'm a little worried people will end up overhyping her if he does well with her. Then again, he does well with Meta Knight and people aren't overhyping Meta Knight, so maybe it'll be fine. Overall, I'm optimistic.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Tbh I've thought since they launched that Corrin was really good. I completely understand why ZeRo thinks they're top tier. Like, the character got nerfed for a reason and it's actually a good thing they were. That character is ridiculously safe and their damage output is very good too, they just struggle at trying to control the pace of neutral. You have to out-turtle Corrin but Corrin does a lot of damage from one neutral win. It's like Kirby except Corrin has actual mobility (not saying it's great but it's something) and burst mobility to boot. That and Corrin's actually just a good character and Kirby is really just... not.

 

[|RK|]

Tbh I've thought since they launched that Corrin was really good. I completely understand why ZeRo thinks they're top tier. Like, the character got nerfed for a reason and it's actually a good thing they were. That character is ridiculously safe and their damage output is very good too, they just struggle at trying to control the pace of neutral. You have to out-turtle Corrin but Corrin does a lot of damage from one neutral win. It's like Kirby except Corrin has actual mobility (not saying it's great but it's something) and burst mobility to boot. That and Corrin's actually just a good character and Kirby is really just... not.

Corrin's mobility is actually Corrin's weakest area. It's actually free to run away... or rush in and force 'em to fight because they can't get away from you.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Corrin's mobility is actually Corrin's weakest area. It's actually free to run away... or rush in and force 'em to fight because they can't get away from you.

Oh I agree, that's what I was trying to get at when I said that Corrin struggles at controlling the pace of neutral. Running away from Corrin is somewhat free, approaching is not though. That's what Corrin wants is for you to try and get through their zone only for them to keep you out and get their damage and allowing a lead which forces more approaches.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

MK Leo said he will be using Corrin in tournaments, probably as another secondary
https://twitter.com/Mkleosb/status/849782530446438400
'd lol

And it seems I am the only one who doesn't like and sees little to no appeal in her.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Corrin is a high tier concept with a few top tier tools but mid/low tier base mobility. All they're lacking is the results and with a swordie god like Leo picking them up.. I'm excited to see where this goes

 

[Bowserboy3]

It appears that playing Fire Emblem Fates inspired Leo to use Corrin; not only does Leo have great choice in characters () but he also has great choice in other games!

It's strange; I decided a week ago that I was going to start and finish both Conquest AND Revelations (already played Birthright, never got around to the others) before Echoes releases next month, and I also contemplated using Corrin again...

I very much doubt he will be dropping anybody in place of Corrin. I think it's more use Corrin amongst his others.

Though if he was to drop somebody, I could see his Meta Knight getting the shove. We never see his Meta Knight nowadays in normal circumstances; Marth appears to have replaced Meta Knight in most/all singles MU's, and the few that Meta Knight might be a notable pick in (such as Rosalina or Peach), he seems to use Cloud anyway. He only appears as a rare counterpick in some dire situations in recent times; he seems more a pocket character.

Even so, the combination of alone is really solid. Add a pocket to that and that's a solid bunch of characters.

 

[Laken64]

I'm very curious on why people think Corrin doesn't have good results in general, this is the same thing I've heard ever since the early beginning of his release (when it was actually true) but now it's getting out of hand. How does Corrin have lacking results when he constantly made top 24 multiple times in multiple majors? The "Corrin has no results" train is a literal meme now that has been said multiple times in this thread by multiple people who just say it and expect to make a point when it's A: nothing but spreading misinformation, and B: they don't show any evidence of it or even researched it.
Here is a Post from TDK on Corrin results pre civil war:

Except for, you know...

Smashcon (Ryuga 17th, Frozen 17th, Ryo 9th)
Little Big House 2 (Ryuga 17th)
The Big House 6 (Cosmos 17th)
KTAR XIX (Ryuga 17th)
UGC Smash Open (Ryuga 13th)

And from this year...

Midwest Mayhem 7 (Ryuga 9th)
Midwest Mayhem Saga (Ryuga 17th)
Frostbite 2016 (Ryuga 17th)

Now, let's look at ESAM's Pikachu results at some of the same tournaments:

Smashcon: 33rd
The Big House 6: 33rd
UGC Smash open: 3rd

So in all the national-level tournaments (With the notable exception of UGC) ESAM and a top Corrin main have been in attendance at, the Corrin main's placed higher. Food for thought.

Oh, and before someone mentions the fact that most of these are Ryuga, when's the last time a Pikachu main that isn't ESAM did well at a national?

My point is if you want to talk about character results please PLEASE do some research so you know what you're talking about is fact and not fiction.

 

[verbatim]

Leo is probably the biggest trendsetter in the metagame (also Abadango), whenever they pick up a character their preformances usually pull it up to high or even top tier.

Both of them popularized MK

Abadango M2
Leo Marth
etc

 

[FeelMeUp]

Speak of the devil.
Hikaru put out amatchup chart.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

He agrees with me about being 6:4 and being near 7:3, but he does have a few odd placements.
The ones that stick out are and .

 

[The-Technique]

I might be wrong but there don't seem to be any notable ZSS mains in Japan, that would explain it.

G&W being as bad a matchup as Cloud though? That's definitely a headscratcher.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I might be wrong but there don't seem to be any notable ZSS mains in Japan, that would explain it.

G&W being as bad a matchup as Cloud though? That's definitely a headscratcher.

Choco is a thing in Japan.

Though ZSS v DK is kind of an annoying MU, because while ZSS has the tools to apply the pressure on DK very easily, one missed punish or a dropped combo results in heavy damage or even death for ZSS.

There comes a percent in this MU (around 70%) that if ZSS doesn't have the lead somehow, then DK literally has to do nothing but wait for ZSS to overcommit or miss something and it's a free grab into death.

It's just a good example of how dumb the heavyweight grapplers can be vs some of the "high commitment" top tiers in this game.

 

[T4ylor]

Hikaru did play Nairo in the match up and their set was fairy close. But, yeah, seeing GnW there as a disadvantage is the oddest thing. From what I can tell, even most GnW players dislike the match up vs DK.

 

[Nah]

Like, the character got nerfed for a reason and it's actually a good thing they were.

page 6:

1.14 Corrin doesn't seem much different from current Corrin to me. The mobility changes were very slight decreases to what was still not good mobility specs. Uair changes were 10%-->9% but with a KBG change from 94-->99, making it kill only slightly later than it does now

.....

I don't remember the slight damage decreases to Nair/Fair/DFS waterball being that much of a huge deal either. The only major change was to Counter Surge, which was just them making it not kill people at obscene %s.

But yes people please start not approaching the character unless you absolutely have to and you'll find that they are a lot less scary than they're often made out to be

 

[ARGHETH]

The DFS nerf wad kind of significant, since it made the stun last for a shorter amount of time. All the other non-counter changes weren't very noticeable, though.

 

[|RK|]

I'm very curious on why people think Corrin doesn't have good results in general, this is the same thing I've heard ever since the early beginning of his release (when it was actually true) but now it's getting out of hand. How does Corrin have lacking results when he constantly made top 24 multiple times in multiple majors? The "Corrin has no results" train is a literal meme now that has been said multiple times in this thread by multiple people who just say it and expect to make a point when it's A: nothing but spreading misinformation, and B: they don't show any evidence of it or even researched it.
Here is a Post from TDK on Corrin results pre civil war:

My point is if you want to talk about character results please PLEASE do some research so you know what you're talking about is fact and not fiction.

ESAM is a poor comparison, considering he's pretty inconsistent. His peaks are why we look at Pikachu the way we do. By that metric, no - Corrin's results aren't amazing. They're better than a lot of characters for sure, but they haven't reached the point of being "wow"

 

[Deleted member]

Seeing Shulk in disadvantage vs DK confuses me heavily. That MU is pretty close to even, DK shouldn't be getting off ledge viably vs Shulk most of the time. I know HIKARU and Kome have played before but still... eh?