Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[williamsga555]

The addition of the ding-dong single handedly swung the D3 v. DK matchup significantly. I used to think it was slightly in D3s favor, now I solidly think DK wins. Grabbing D3 is just too easy for him.

 

[|RK|]

BTW, ZeRo cleaned up Ignition again with mainly Lucina. I think he only used Diddy for Ned. But his Lucina is making good players look incredibly free.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The addition of the ding-dong single handedly swung the D3 v. DK matchup significantly. I used to think it was slightly in D3s favor, now I solidly think DK wins. Grabbing D3 is just too easy for him.

Poetic justice

 

[Game7a1]

Speak of the devil.
Hikaru put out amatchup chart.

現状の相性表あげときます！
左右差ないですー！
DK's MU！！ pic.twitter.com/jfXwM9E8nx

— 8LX / YG / HIKARU (@HIKARU_ssbu) April 6, 2017

He agrees with me about being 6:4 and being near 7:3, but he does have a few odd placements.
The ones that stick out are and .

I would say swap ZSS and G&W on the MU chart and it'd look better, but I think G&W loses the DK at least slightly (given that it's similar to the G&W-Bowser MU).
Still, does anybody know if Hikaru has any bracket experience with G&W? Or is it due to his playstyle that he thinks G&W wins?

 

[TDK]

ESAM is a poor comparison, considering he's pretty inconsistent. His peaks are why we look at Pikachu the way we do. By that metric, no - Corrin's results aren't amazing. They're better than a lot of characters for sure, but they haven't reached the point of being "wow"

The person I was replying to at the time thought Pikachu had better results than Corrin, so I had to explain it.

Also, HIKARU's Link placement boggles my mind. Same with Samus, where a heavy projectile zoner seems like it'd be relatively bad for DK. Especially Samus, who also has a Shorter Ding Dong window due to being floaty(?).

 

[sups48]

Can some Mega or Bowser explain how the Mu is this bad für Bowser? Or is this just Kameme?

Bowser takes 15 damage from a Z dropped metal blade, Cant get off the ledge and completely walled his big body make him pellet punching bag. Watch lord mix vs scatt if you really want to see why.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I wonder what in bizarro world Hikaru thinks DK beats Robin? Majority of DK's think Robin beats DK solidly even DK will whom i talked to about forever ago . The MU can be dirty especially once DK is cornered at the ledge and Robin does Robin things and submit him to arcfire danger zone with LS Fair and arcthunder on deck. Probably havent played enough Robins i guess or using his tilts to swat away elthunders and safely activate arc thunders idk hmm.

 

[The-Technique]

I wonder what in bizarro world Hikaru thinks DK beats Robin? Majority of DK's think Robin beats DK solidly even DK will whom i talked to about forever ago . The MU can be dirty especially once DK is cornered at the ledge and Robin does Robin things and submit him to arcfire danger zone with LS Fair and arcthunder on deck. Probably havent played enough Robins i guess or using his tilts to swat away elthunders and safely activate arc thunders idk hmm.

Mr. II hasn't been able to attend many events recently, so there probably aren't many other notable Japanese Robin mains active to make Hikaru think otherwise, sadly. Same with Ike except there are even fewer Ikes in Japan, lol

 

[Man Li Gi]

Fr fr, not placing any numbers, I think DK loses to Villager, Fox, Rosa, Sonic, Diddy Sheik, and TL in a big way.....they all can play serious keep away or in TL case, not affected by ding dong. Everyone else is in even to winning land. I don't think DK straight up wins many (relevant) bar Ryu, Mario, and Luigi. DK doesn't lose to Robin nor Samus. DK loses to WiFi Robin tho.

 

[my_T]

DK definitely loses to Samus

 

[Man Li Gi]

DK definitely loses to Samus

*uses definitive answer without a definitive explanation*
Mmk.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Take Hikaru's attempt at making a matchup spread of DK with a grain of salt.

DK's simply one of these character's who's gameplay is centered around pressing his advantage state to a ridiculous level. If the attempts fail, this will result in heavy punish from the opponent usually, or a neutral reset favoring the opponent ( against zoners ). DK's advantage state is dumb enough to afford losing neutral a bunch of times, and you can't really measure how much attempts it will take for DK to get what he wants.
Everyone knows & has witnessed ( Post Patch DK ) what DK truly is w/out his grab combos, so there's no denying he essentially revolves around these tools i just mentioned. With such a character comes a lot of volatility, and, as you can probably guess, difficulty doing any kind of matchup spread of all characters.
Tl;dr I believe that, with a character such as DK, you can only really define the easiest & hardest matchups. Then it's simply too volatile & up to factors that can't be measured accurately.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Take Hikaru's attempt at making a matchup spread of DK with a grain of salt.

DK's simply one of these character's who's gameplay is centered around pressing his advantage state to a ridiculous level. If the attempts fail, this will result in heavy punish from the opponent usually, or a neutral reset favoring the opponent ( against zoners ). DK's advantage state is dumb enough to afford losing neutral a bunch of times, and you can't really measure how much attempts it will take for DK to get what he wants.
Everyone knows & has witnessed ( Post Patch DK ) what DK truly is w/out his grab combos, so there's no denying he essentially revolves around these tools i just mentioned. With such a character comes a lot of volatility, and, as you can probably guess, difficulty doing any kind of matchup spread of all characters.
Tl;dr I believe that, with a character such as DK, you can only really define the easiest & hardest matchups. Then it's simply too volatile & up to factors that can't be measured accurately.

It's almost as if you described a certain fighting game archetype the relies on grabs, has great normals, large, heavy, and combo food.

"Volatile" is the word I see people use a lot in this game, when really there's nothing volatile in this game. It's either burst conversions in this game or that archetype just using their tools. If we consider that as volatile, then every smash game bar Brawl is a game of volatility.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah honestly grappler archetype is explosive when they work and when they don't they get bodied.

They are not known to be an overall very consistent character.

They have matches they dominate and matches where they get owned. Generally they get owned by top tiers though, unless they have a tool to offset their key weaknesses.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Yeah honestly grappler archetype is explosive when they work and when they don't they get bodied.

They are not known to be an overall very consistent character.

They have matches they dominate and matches where they get owned. Generally they get owned by top tiers though, unless they have a tool to offset their key weaknesses.

Going into SFV territory, Zangief is already considered by Japan as Top 10. This upcoming patch will include Tundra Storm counter, super headbutt, a low forward grab. Now, if you added banishing flat (green hand) to snuff approaches, counter projectiles like it did, then that would be a top tier that legitimately would be a bit too strong for even me.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Mr. II hasn't been able to attend many events recently, so there probably aren't many other notable Japanese Robin mains active to make Hikaru think otherwise, sadly. Same with Ike except there are even fewer Ikes in Japan, lol

The only other one I can think of is Ke-ya.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Going into SFV territory, Zangief is already considered by Japan as Top 10. This upcoming patch will include Tundra Storm counter, super headbutt, a low forward grab. Now, if you added banishing flat (green hand) to snuff approaches, counter projectiles like it did, then that would be a top tier that legitimately would be a bit too strong for even me.

Yeah he is lookin like the one true protector of russian skies for all time.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Also, HIKARU's Link placement boggles my mind.

That I can see. Link has issues with high-groundspeed chars because they can bait n punish his buttons. Bowser's the same. It's a simple gameplan but effective. Link's amount of disjoint isn't that much greater, either.

Fr fr, not placing any numbers, I think DK loses to Villager, Fox, Rosa, Sonic, Diddy Sheik, and TL in a big way.....they all can play serious keep away or in TL case, not affected by ding dong. Everyone else is in even to winning land. I don't think DK straight up wins many (relevant) bar Ryu, Mario, and Luigi. DK doesn't lose to Robin nor Samus. DK loses to WiFi Robin tho.

Like Tink, G&W isn't very susceptible to ding dong. And his lingering aerials tend to stuff whatever dk is doing. Add in G&W's edgeguarding against DK's predictable recovery and that spreadshot projectile vs a hurtbox the size of a barn, and yeah. Oh and G&W's own dthrow comboes work really on DK.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The only reason by Bayo is not worse then HIKARU posted is now amazingly effective Ding-Dong is on her.
She combos his big ol' butt all over the place, can easily punish everything he does hard with the exception of grabs and b-air and just utterly obliterates.him offstage.

Then again the MU is similar to the Sheik situation. Bayo hasall the tools to beat down and dominate DK in neutral. But all DK needs is one or 2 grab conversions at the right time to easily take a stock.

Also interesting how he put Mario as an even MU when the overall consensus is DK has the advantage in the MU

 

[Man Li Gi]

That I can see. Link has issues with high-groundspeed chars because they can bait n punish his buttons. Bowser's the same. It's a simple gameplan but effective. Link's amount of disjoint isn't that much greater, either.



Like Tink, G&W isn't very susceptible to ding dong. And his lingering aerials tend to stuff whatever dk is doing. Add in G&W's edgeguarding against DK's predictable recovery and that spreadshot projectile vs a hurtbox the size of a barn, and yeah. Oh and G&W's own dthrow comboes work really on DK.

You must've misinterpreted my reasoning. The reason DK loses TL isn't because ding dong works for a measly 3%. No, the keep away game he has is what makes him win it. GW doesn't have a keep away game DK must respect. His lingering aerials ain't nothing to DK. In a game where GW was stronger and DK was slightly weaker in so much that he didn't have ding dong (Brawl), it was considered evenish. In this game where ding dong is actually a lot more flexible than you think it is, yeah DK don't worry. Nair lingers, but his tilts don't care. Again, no numbers but I say that DK wins or at worst, even. Hikaru says otherwise for some reason. I don't know what or where that reasoning belies, but yeah. Being in high school, he hasn't explored more US Tourneys yet to see how he can expand the meta.

 

[Luigi player]

Fr fr, not placing any numbers, I think DK loses to Villager, Fox, Rosa, Sonic, Diddy Sheik, and TL in a big way.....they all can play serious keep away or in TL case, not affected by ding dong. Everyone else is in even to winning land. I don't think DK straight up wins many (relevant) bar Ryu, Mario, and Luigi. DK doesn't lose to Robin nor Samus. DK loses to WiFi Robin tho.

Overall kinda agree with the losing MUs you listed, but I don't think they're too bad except for Rosa, Fox and maybe Villager, and not all have the same reasoning, imo.

Villager: might wall DK out a bit and everything he does is annoying
Fox: I don't feel like he walls DK out or camps him well enough. It's just that he won't let DK land and combos him super hard. Is also able to punish hard with usmash and threaten in the air with uairs to get KOs.
Rosa: Luma walls out and is really annoying to deal with.
Sonic: Is kinda safe from DK and can just roll around most of the time (he's also small while rolling which makes this even worse for DK).
Diddy: Banana stuff can be annoying but I really don't feel like DK has it too bad against him. He's also not really "walling" DK at all. If DK has him in the air/disadvantage Diddy has a pretty rough time. Tilts beat out Diddys stuff. DKs bairs are better than Diddys fair. And just doing DK stuff (-> going for grabs) is super rewarding and does a lot of damage to Diddy while putting him at a disadvantage.
Sheik: Should be pretty bad for DK because similarly to how his MU with Fox is, Sheik might never let DK land. The difference here is, though, that Sheik is easier to trade with (moves seem less disjointed than Fox'), they're also not too threatening. Sheik also will need a lot of hits and rack up a ton of damage to take stocks. All this gives DK more and more chances to reset to neutral and possibly get some hits in. It might not be worse than 55-45 (Sheik wins).
TL: well... he's hard to catch, Ding Dong basically doesn't work, he gets free combos from bomb-hits and can kinda safely throw out stuff while jumping around.

Generally if the Ding Dong doesn't work or has a really small window then the MU could be bad for DK, because he's overall pretty flawed as a character, just with a super extreme win condition. If he doesn't have even that then it'll be pretty rough.

Also DK doesn't lose to Samus at all. Bair > everything from Samus if you're near enough (except you don't want to trade with hers if at high %), Ding Dong has a big enough window to be able to get stocks with consistently... What does Samus have? Trying to wall him out with slow af projectiles? She has a somewhat decent ground game because of a fast combostarter (dashattack), huge grabrange, forces shields with DA and Charge Shot and has decent gtfo moves even if they barely work. Her combo game isn't too great if you SDI her uairs (she mostly still gets some hits though). UpB out of shield isn't too scary for DK because he mostly goes for grabs anyway.

Just going for grabs and bairs, while occasionly going for tilts to beat out her moves while she's trying to land, or start combos with jab1 works pretty fine in the MU. Not saying Samus has nothing of course, but DK overall has not too bad of a time in that MU. I could even see it being in DKs favor a little bit, or just about even.

 

[Rizen]

I'm curious what your thoughts on the / MU are?






PS
Internet privacy is dead. Clear your browsing history everyone lest you start getting ads exploiting your shameful desires.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Also DK doesn't lose to Samus at all. Bair > everything from Samus if you're near enough (except you don't want to trade with hers if at high %), Ding Dong has a big enough window to be able to get stocks with consistently... What does Samus have? Trying to wall him out with slow af projectiles? She has a somewhat decent ground game because of a fast combostarter (dashattack), huge grabrange, forces shields with DA and Charge Shot and has decent gtfo moves even if they barely work. Her combo game isn't too great if you SDI her uairs (she mostly still gets some hits though). UpB out of shield isn't too scary for DK because he mostly goes for grabs anyway.
Just going for grabs and bairs, while occasionly going for tilts to beat out her moves while she's trying to land, or start combos with jab1 works pretty fine in the MU. Not saying Samus has nothing of course, but DK overall has not too bad of a time in that MU. I could even see it being in DKs favor a little bit, or just about even.

DK does indeed lose this one, and quite badly. Z-air combos into dash attack from 0 -> 100% with not-strict timing and DK hitstun frame is way too large to SDI out of up-air combos. The Samus can also track your SDI and continue the combos.
Linear recovery offstage for charge-shot kill.
Tiny little bombs can wreck your shield and/or grab attempts.
DK has enormous trouble landing vs any sort of dash-attack, charge shot or grab mixup. It's really very hard. Hikaru vs. Esam was a tight match, frankly Hikaru while a great player got damn lucky near the end.

 

[Nah]

DK doesn't lose to Robin nor Samus. DK loses to WiFi Robin tho.

Why would DK not have an unfavorable matchup with Robin, and how does WiFi make enough of a difference that he does in there?

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'm curious what your thoughts on the / MU are?






PS
Internet privacy is dead. Clear your browsing history everyone lest you start getting ads exploiting your shameful desires.

What are you talking about?????


(Also, to keep this post on-topic, my guess is that Link would also beat Donkey Kong because Donkey Kong will have a very hard time getting in because of Link's projectiles, and Link is probably good at edgeguarding him.)

 

[Rizen]

What are you talking about?????


(Also, to keep this post on-topic, my guess is that Link would also beat Donkey Kong because Donkey Kong will have a very hard time getting in because of Link's projectiles, and Link is probably good at edgeguarding him.)

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/327107-trump-signs-internet-privacy-repeal
Sorry, I was trying to keep it more of a brief heads up to not derail the thread but should have linked this.

On the topic of / imo Link slightly wins or it's even. Link can platform camp with bombs that will immediately put DK into a disadvantage state, above him. Link also has Zair, grab with Dthrow combos past 40% and projectiles that other swordies don't. Bombs combo into Fair and Link has good shield safety and walling. Link has the sheer KO power to end DK and decent weight to survive ding dong longer than many characters.
DK is a considerable threat with a faster CQC game, intangible arms, fast air and ground movement speed, Bair and of course ding dong. Link has to camp for his life. DK can be hard to catch for sluggish Link when DK's in disadvantage and he can wreck offstage. Bair is really good. IMO DK's the most threatening of the super heavies.



Here's the ESAM/Hakiru game DungeonMaster mentioned.
https://youtu.be/oT0yHZnm3WM?t=550

 

[Y2Kay]

I mean . . . I know I'm the greninja guy, but I can't be the only person who thinks DK solidly beating Greninja is a little crazy?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Another thing to note the DK-Link MU is that Link can self harm himself to get out of Ding Dong percentages quickly making things harder for him

 

[Luigi player]

I'm curious what your thoughts on the / MU are?

Haven't played the MU at a high enough level to know for sure. Iirc I also haven't seen the MU being played (Hikaru and T might have played before?), so I can't even get some ideas from watching high level play.
So most of what I have on the MU is theory crafting. Our local Link isn't that good so I can't really judge from that.

What I do know is that DKs combos obviously work pretty well on Link so that's something.
I'd guess the MU is about even, could possibly be +1 for either of them. Link might be able to wall DK out somewhat with Zairs and all of his projectiles while staying kinda safe with a lot of shieldstun on his scary attacks everywhere.
Ding Dong is a huge threat for Link, though. Like most characters with a rather big window on when it works.

DK does indeed lose this one, and quite badly. Z-air combos into dash attack from 0 -> 100% with not-strict timing and DK hitstun frame is way too large to SDI out of up-air combos. The Samus can also track your SDI and continue the combos.
Linear recovery offstage for charge-shot kill.
Tiny little bombs can wreck your shield and/or grab attempts.
DK has enormous trouble landing vs any sort of dash-attack, charge shot or grab mixup. It's really very hard. Hikaru vs. Esam was a tight match, frankly Hikaru while a great player got damn lucky near the end.

Zair has to hit, and that's not free if DK is careful. It might happen every now and then, but will these combos really do enough % to matter that much?
Like I said I know SDIing uairs won't safe you from all harm, but it does make it a bit less effective since it's possible to limit followups.
"Linear recovery". Has to get DK offstage first to the point where he has to upB from far away (this is a pretty bad spot against any character for DK, so nothing too special for Samus).
Bombs could be a little annoyance, but their hitbox comes out late, and if Samus isn't careful DK can just run in and grab and use the invincibility(?) from grab to cargo to avoid getting hit by it.
DK also has a lot of problems landing against pretty much the entire cast. He will still land unless you're really lucky and predict everything correctly. Then he gets in a grab at 80 and you just die, even if he's at 200%. That's almost DKs entire Smash4 life since he got the Ding Dong. Get wrecked most of the time but somehow manage to get in a few hits and at the end you might get a grab to Ding Dong or not. With the outcome of that possibly deciding the match, lol.

Why would DK not have an unfavorable matchup with Robin, and how does WiFi make enough of a difference that he does in there?

Why would he? Robin is really slow and her kill-confirm is off a really slow and laggy grab, it's not too hard to avoid Robins projectiles and DKs grabgame is super good (decently fast run, very good grabrange with amazing followups). It's usually super realistic for DK to get in a lot of grabs and do work. Then in disadvantage you have to get back down without getting grabbed again or getting bair'd/utilted. It's not an easy task and I'm sure the Ding Dong window for Robin isn't too small either so there you go. Ding Dong is a really serious threat. Don't know why people seem to underestimate it a bit after what has been seen lately.
Unless you camp on platforms to get bair'd or uair'd from DK you'll be at a disadvantage in that match because grabs are so easy for DK to get.
I've never ever had trouble avoiding Robins projectiles besides the "random" books or swords flying out after they're out of use, not even with fatty characters. Even if hit by the fire attack it's possible to get out and roll away or something before Robin is able to follow up.

 

[The-Technique]

Why would DK not have an unfavorable matchup with Robin, and how does WiFi make enough of a difference that he does in there?

In all fairness to everyone, there's not really much data to go on, since we haven't had Dath or Jerm or Mr. II meet DKWill or Hikaru in bracket thus far.

Personally I think Robin wins the matchup (slightly) since Robin never has to approach, thus DK has the burden of having to get past Robin's meaty Levin sword and projectiles, kind of a similar dilemma with Cloud except Robin can harass DK from long distance. Also it's not hard to land a grab at all when you've conditioned DK into shielding and rolling, or mixups like short hop B-reverse charge into grab.

Basically if you're dealing with a passive Robin that isn't putting pressure on you or using tricky item play, that ain't a good Robin you're playing against.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Zair has to hit, and that's not free if DK is careful. It might happen every now and then, but will these combos really do enough % to matter that much?

I actually wrote the book on Samus combos, yes, they do a LOT of damage per hit confirm. If you don't trust my opinion, and want a pro-player opinion watch any of Esam's recent videos where he uses Samus and he'll routinely point out that it's a TON of damage.
I'm a wi-fi warrior sadly as my work life is rough, and I haven't played on ladder in while. These are wi-fi and not pro level, so take them for what they are worth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZbHOav7iuQ&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pk6nXY_81A&feature=youtu.be
It can be 0 -> 100 in very few hit confirms.
If you're not careful and walk into a super missile, or don't tech a d-air, it can be 40, 50 damage.
DK's combo window is immense so you don't even need to be super-precise. In that video I hit him with a true combo d-air->up-B and he's stuck in hitstun on the ground. The "chain" combo is d-air -> CS, that's guaranteed since I landed the d-air->up-B.
However DK's combo window is so large I can easily throw out a jab1-2 and still get the combo chain. 39 damage is no small chunk.

All things being perfect DK needs 4 grabs to kill Samus. Samus needs 3 combos and an edge-guard or read to kill DK. It's very volatile and very fast, but the Samus knows precisely what the DK is fishing for, and has a larger range of starters (i.e. options), and the safe z-air starter so vice-versa is not true. It's pretty hard on the king.
And I do like DK, all the respect in the world for his mains. Was my secondary in Brawl point of fact.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I actually wrote the book on Samus combos, yes, they do a LOT of damage per hit confirm. If you don't trust my opinion, and want a pro-player opinion watch any of Esam's recent videos where he uses Samus and he'll routinely point out that it's a TON of damage.
I'm a wi-fi warrior sadly as my work life is rough, and I haven't played on ladder in while. These are wi-fi and not pro level, so take them for what they are worth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZbHOav7iuQ&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pk6nXY_81A&feature=youtu.be
It can be 0 -> 100 in very few hit confirms.
If you're not careful and walk into a super missile, or don't tech a d-air, it can be 40, 50 damage.
DK's combo window is immense so you don't even need to be super-precise. In that video I hit him with a true combo d-air->up-B and he's stuck in hitstun on the ground. The "chain" combo is d-air -> CS, that's guaranteed since I landed the d-air->up-B.
However DK's combo window is so large I can easily throw out a jab1-2 and still get the combo chain. 39 damage is no small chunk.

All things being perfect DK needs 4 grabs to kill Samus. Samus needs 3 combos and an edge-guard or read to kill DK. It's very volatile and very fast, but the Samus knows precisely what the DK is fishing for, and has a larger range of starters (i.e. options), and the safe z-air starter so vice-versa is not true. It's pretty hard on the king.
And I do like DK, all the respect in the world for his mains. Was my secondary in Brawl point of fact.

DK only needs 2-3 grabs to kill samus. Cargo throw to usmash or to jump up b does 29 or 37-41 respectively. Cargo throw to double bair does 27. Hypothetically, you're at 64-68%. Then on top of that, cargo bair/fair puts you at death. Literally is that simple for DK.

Yes the combo window is large, but thats nothing new. You're making it sound like that is always gonna happen (if it did, then Samus is then a lot better than what people give her credit for). Dealing 40% to DK really isn't that big a deal. Yes I sound like I'm down playing it cuz most DK players don't die from that stuff. Yes Hikaru nearly lost to Esam Samus, but he chose BF which is just bad. Legit, DK v Samus makes it look even on that stage, but don't let that fool you. It really isn't a MU DK must worry about. DK crouch avoids clashing with zair and also bair is too sexy to ignore. Jab grab is hella easy on Samus also. DK never actually has to appreciate Samus zoning tools unlike with TL or even Villager. The window is hella large on Samus too. Truth, it lies in that even to winning land I described early.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I actually wrote the book on Samus combos, yes, they do a LOT of damage per hit confirm.

Not even related to the Samus v DK MU, but I am just seconding this very good point; you don't need to be a master mathematician to add up the damage from a simple combo from Samus. 3 hits can do upwards of 40% in quite a few cases. Samus having multiple good and practical combo starters that lead into damaging combos is one of her best traits.

The opponent being bigger and larger only makes this point stronger and more effective however.

As for the Samus:DK MU, I can't say whether either character outright wins, but saying DK doesn't have to respect Samus's zoning options is utter bullcrap. Zair is absolutely amazing in this MU due to DK's size, his inability to deal with it when backed into a corner, and the amount of confirms it opens up on hit. If Ding Dong wasn't a thing this MU would be far and away in Samus's favour; luckily, Ding Dong keeps an otherwise bad MU pretty even overall.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Why would DK not have an unfavorable matchup with Robin, and how does WiFi make enough of a difference that he does in there?

Bair and Fair are neigh impossible for DK to punish if spaced on WiFi. Its very simple.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/327107-trump-signs-internet-privacy-repeal
Sorry, I was trying to keep it more of a brief heads up to not derail the thread but should have linked this.

On the topic of / imo Link slightly wins or it's even. Link can platform camp with bombs that will immediately put DK into a disadvantage state, above him. Link also has Zair, grab with Dthrow combos past 40% and projectiles that other swordies don't. Bombs combo into Fair and Link has good shield safety and walling. Link has the sheer KO power to end DK and decent weight to survive ding dong longer than many characters.
DK is a considerable threat with a faster CQC game, intangible arms, fast air and ground movement speed, Bair and of course ding dong. Link has to camp for his life. DK can be hard to catch for sluggish Link when DK's in disadvantage and he can wreck offstage. Bair is really good. IMO DK's the most threatening of the super heavies.



Here's the ESAM/Hakiru game DungeonMaster mentioned.
https://youtu.be/oT0yHZnm3WM?t=550

There's a reason DK don't take people to BF for this MU. You would rather punish a Link on a a flat stage as it yields better results. DK just will play CQC if camping is detected. Legit, stay in a slow Zoners face if they want to zone.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Off topic from Samus or DK MU's, know what one of my favourite things about Samus is? Nair.

Good god this move is so good now. Before 1.1.5, this move was pretty much a straight downgrade from her old sex kick Nair. However, post buff, it's debatable which move is better now, though I would still give the edge to the Smash 4 version

Sure, the sex kick was decently good at getting opponents away from you in the air, but it wasn't an "oh, I baited/read an airdodge at 80% and now you're going to die for it" button.

Pretty much a front facing Bair with a second kick behind (albeit weaker; still way stronger than the sour end of the old Nair) for extra safety/coverage.

IIRC, after the damage buff it got, I think it may also be safe on shield when landing too, which is a huge thing for Samus as this is something she previously lacked; a front facing aerial she could land safely with. One thing I like to do is land with Nair and because grab is too slow, interrupt oppenent's attempts to punish with Jab 1, which I have also come to like for what it is now. Sure, it doesn't link into Jab 1 as much, but it alone is a great quick "get off me" option for interrupting things. Sets up for Ftilt or a Dash Attack (and of course even a Charge Shot) if the opponent is too hasty or doesn't choose a defensive option.

I think Samus could be mid tier to be honest, and I don't think that's an outrageous idea either; some people might disagree, but it's certainly debatable and something that can be considered. I mean, she's technically 1 place off of being a mid tier on the current tier list right now, so that supports the idea.

I remember back when ESAM made his most recent tier list video series, and he put Samus in mid tier. Everyone laughed.

Times have changed since then.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know much about Samus, but I think she's an alright character. She has a great burst option in dash attack and she gets good damage off it and dthrow, plus her stage control with Charge Shot and zair are pretty solid. She also has a top 10 up air easy, combined with good ledgeguarding, edgeguarding and recovery. People like IcyMist and Afro Smash also tend to perform well, so we could possibly see Samus on the rise if they start consistently going to larger events. What holds the character back is having such a high commitment grab along with some key moves of hers being undertuned (****in' Missiles) and poor hitboxes on certain moves.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

It's funny. Every few months or so seems to be an ever repeating cycle of characters rising and falling. As one character disappears from the meta, another ends up taking their place until that character rises again because people got lax when facing that MU. I distinctly recall DK falling a few months back when Bowser started to take center stage. Even more recently has been the decline of decent Rosalinas. (Though, who knows how Civil War will affect that decline.)

In the end, most of the characters are still good enough to catch even the best players off guard, regardless, and just seem to even eek out wins.

What characters do you feel are the most prone to becoming dormant before being able to rise up again and when least expected?

 

[Zelder]

It's funny. Every few months or so seems to be an ever repeating cycle of characters rising and falling. As one character disappears from the meta, another ends up taking their place until that character rises again because people got lax when facing that MU. I distinctly recall DK falling a few months back when Bowser started to take center stage. Even more recently has been the decline of decent Rosalinas. (Though, who knows how Civil War will affect that decline.)

In the end, most of the characters are still good enough to catch even the best players off guard, regardless, and just seem to even eek out wins.

What characters do you feel are the most prone to becoming dormant before being able to rise up again and when least expected?

Hello, time traveler from the tail end of 2016. I'm glad you could join us in distant star date 2017, I have a couple of tournaments to show you.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Even more recently has been the decline of decent Rosalinas. (Though, who knows how Civil War will affect that decline.

Call me crazy, but I've got a feeling Rosalina's performance at Civil War will be remembered fondly.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Hello, time traveler from the tail end of 2016. I'm glad you could join us in distant star date 2017, I have a couple of tournaments to show you.

You mean like this...

Besides ZeRo and Komorikiri that tournament also included players such as Dabuz, MKLeo, CaptainZack, Salem, Ranai, Kameme, ESAM, Fatality, Tsu, etc. etc. etc.

And then the next week Dabuz won literally the most competitive Smash 4 tournament in history (47 of the top 50 PGR).

Just helping our time traveling 2016 buddies get caught up.