Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Wintermelon43]

Well, Leo may be backing up his words. Going all Corrin at a tournament in Mexico.

Is it a big tournament though? Because if it isn't, it might just be similar to ZeRo's Lucina.

 

[TDK]

Is it a big tournament though? Because if it isn't, it might just be similar to ZeRo's Lucina.

https://smash.gg/tournament/the-arena-2017/events

Nearly 200 entrants, including lots of Mexico's best. He's Serious.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Has he used Corrin in The Arena yet?

Is it a big tournament though? Because if it isn't, it might just be similar to ZeRo's Lucina.

Zero's just started picking up Lucina and he hasn't had the opportunity to use her outside of locals or Anthers yet.
Besides, he doesn't look like the kind of guy that'd take an incomplete character of his to a big tournament. He wants to feel comfortable

 

[|RK|]

Is it a big tournament though? Because if it isn't, it might just be similar to ZeRo's Lucina.

ZeRo's Lucina is real - he's just practicing with her in locals and such. I think she may replace his Cloud and Sheik, seeing as she handles the MUs he uses them for with aplomb.

 

[Das Koopa]

Tournies I'm using this week:

-The Arena 2017 (Mexico)
-Midwest Mayhem 8: North America Tour (Midwest)
-Who's Your Pappy #7 (NorCal)
-Kawaii Kon 2017 (Hawaii)
-Northwest Majors IX (Pacific Northwest)
-The Fantastic Classic (MD/VA)
-Gwinnett Brawl April (Southeast)
-Sumabato x Cyclops #1 (Kansai) (OrionRank Only, finished on the 5th)

 

[Aaron1997]

Ozone> Falln 2-0

 

[|RK|]

ZERO LOST TO NED

 

[GS3K]

Ned > ZeRo 3-2

limit cross slash in the last 5 seconds of game 5 with both over 120% to win it

 

[Das Koopa]

Ned 3-2 ZeRo literally down to the last second

 

[Wintermelon43]

What the heck has happened to ZeRo lately?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

My only guess is that people have been seeing what ZeRo does good against and what he does bad against and have been figuring out counterplay to ZeRo's style. He's also gotten hit hard in confidence after Civil War.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Yeah, that's what I've figured. But, is it people figuring him out, ZeRo playing worse than usual since Civil War, or a combination of both?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

A combination of both. Back before people were beating ZeRo his style was hard if not impossible to counter and as a result his confidence level was unshakable. Now after failing hard in Civil War and how hard he is on himself he's panicking more easily. Though this loss WAS at the last second mind you. On top of that people are watching closely when ZeRo loses to a relatively unknown player so there's that to take into account too.

 

[|RK|]

Tbf, ZeRo six stocked Need at Ignition just on Wednesday. Ned prolly got the download from that, 'cause some of his reads were insane.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Tournies I'm using this week:

-The Arena 2017 (Mexico)
-Midwest Mayhem 8: North America Tour (Midwest)
-Who's Your Pappy #7 (NorCal)
-Kawaii Kon 2017 (Hawaii)
-Northwest Majors IX (Pacific Northwest)
-The Fantastic Classic (MD/VA)
-Gwinnett Brawl April (Southeast)
-Sumabato x Cyclops #1 (Kansai) (OrionRank Only, finished on the 5th)

Would this count as a category 1, part of a TX circuit we used to do in brawl and has 90+ people if I'm correct so a decent sized monthly with some competiton.
http://rotm.challonge.com/Smash4Top16

 

[NotLiquid]

ZeRo 3 - 0 Samsora

Always nice to see Peach in a Top 8 of this size. Love seeing her explosive conversions, felt like Samsora could have taken some of those games.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Ally 3-1 Locus


Ally pulled some ZSS/MK up-air to up-b ladder jank to take that last stock in game . Whoa.

 

[The-Technique]

My God...Locus almost reverse 3-0'd Zero, last game last stock.

 

[|RK|]

@Emblem Lord You're gonna have to explain some things my guy

I'm starting to believe Ryu is top tier, free

 

[The-Technique]

Persistent Blade 3-1's Ally

:^)

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Persistent Blade 3-1's Ally

:^)

And that's the tie breaker in ZeRo's favor 7-6, has he found his answer against Ally with Lucy? I know it's way too early to judge but I thought I put that thought anyway.

 

[TDK]

Midwest mayhem 8 (296 Entrants) (Midwest)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: Ally
4th: Ned
5th: Locus
5th: JJROCKETS
7th: Samsora
7th: Rich Brown
9th: JK
9th: 6WX
9th: NiTe
9th: Seth
13th: SWAG
13th: Nom
13th: 8BitMan
13th: Mister Eric

The Fantastic Classic (81 Entrants) (MD/VA)

1st: ZD
2nd: WaDi
3rd: Dexter
4th: Remzi
5th: Puppeh
5th: Black Yoshi
7th: Promaelia
7th: Zephyr

Fight in Baboo Dungeon (52 Entrants) (Quebec)

1st: SuperGirlKels
2nd: Sensuell
3rd: Goulmania
4th: Stroumbert

 

[Das Koopa]

l u c i n a h a s n o r e s u l t s

 

[ARGHETH]

And that's the tie breaker in ZeRo's favor 7-6, has he found his answer against Ally with Lucy? I know it's way too early to judge but I thought I put that thought anyway.

"has Nairo found his answer against Esam with Doc"

In all seriousness, probably. Lucina does better in general against Mario, and Zero's already put in a ton of time into her as a secondary.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Here lies the people who claimed Lucina had no utility compared to Marth.

2014-2017

 

[Aaron1997]

Gwinnett Brawl Duluth, GA (131 Entrants)

1. Scatt
2. HyperKirby
3. Fatality
4. Kodystri
5. Lord Mix
5. Tortas FC
7. Neos
7. SaltOne

Note: Hyper Double Elim Fatailty both sets 3-1

 

[Illusion.]

Slush posted this (http://rotm.challonge.com/Smash4Top16) earlier, but the bracket ended up not being updated so I'll fill in the blanks and everything else:

Return of the Mack 3 (78 entrants, Texas)
1st. SU | Megafox
2nd. MB | Whispy
3rd. 4BR | Illusion
4th. Walter
5th. Shiny
5th. SG | iFox
7th. YellowRello
7th. Culix

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Gwinnett Brawl Duluth, GA (131 Entrants)

1. Scatt
2. HyperKirby
3. Fatality
4. Kodystri
5. Lord Mix
5. Tortas FC
7. Neos
7. SaltOne

Note: Hyper Double Elim Fatailty both sets 3-1

Wait, what? How is the Roy/Falcon MU exactly? I have seen people view this at best being 50:50, but how does it break down anyway?

 

[Rizen]

Here lies the people who claimed Lucina had no utility compared to Marth.

2014-2017

No one said she has no utility. We said Lucina is slightly worse than Marth; it doesn't mean she can't have good MUs.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

No one said she has no utility. We said Lucina is slightly worse than Marth; it doesn't mean she can't have good MUs.

Fam.

A lot of people said it was a lot more than "slightly."

 

[L9999]

Wait, what? How is the Roy/Falcon MU exactly? I have seen people view this at best being 50:50, but how does it break down anyway?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48NVohzfwwQ
From watching HyperKirby's matches with Fatality the MU comes down to who can touch each other first to get the damage output going. Both characters have very good damage strings/combos, super powerful read moves, and bad disadvantage and exploitable recoveries to get cheesed out.

No one said she has no utility. We said Lucina is slightly worse than Marth; it doesn't mean she can't have good MUs.

We had people like ESAM say she is bottom tier because she is not Marth and "she has no tipper so +2 MU" was a very common trend not too long ago.

 

[Mister M]

You know zero could probably win a tournament with any character in the top half of the cast... slow down.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Not surprised that ZeRo's Lucina was able to 3-1 ally. Honestly her greater Shield pushback on her attacks makes it a lot harder for Mario (and grab based characters in general) to grab her than marth.

 

[jet56]

https://smash.gg/tournament/kawaii-kon-2017/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/128522/365838
Kawaii Kon top 8
Will be streamed Sunday at 12 p.m. hawaii time (3p.m. pacific)

Winners:

Abadango vs Saiki
Falsevs Void

Losers:

KOreanvs Rush
WARvs Dren

Some things to note:

5 guest players participated in the hawaii tourney. 4 of them are in winners side (the 5th guest was 2gg strides.)

the other 4 are top 5 pr players from hawaii, occupying losers side.

Watching pretty much the whole tourney myself, i can tell there is a definitive gap between the hawaii scene and top level players. Having your smash scene on a small island really blows, as it unfortunately turns your scene into a echo chamber in terms of growth, and gives you much less exposure to various playstyles.

3 sheiks in top 8, once again showing how consistent the character is.

Overall, this is a great chance for the hawaii scene to grow and get better having this talent here.

My predictions:

it's most likely going to be a winners finals match between abadango and void. personally im going to go out on a limb here though and call a double upset where we see saiki and false in winners finals, with abadango and void slugging it out in losers semis. Of the hawaii players with the best chance of an upset, i have to say WAR has the best shot, both because of his skill and his character.

 

[FamilyTeam]

No one said she has no utility. We said Lucina is slightly worse than Marth; it doesn't mean she can't have good MUs.

Depending on where you go, the sentiment that she is Bottom/Low Tier still exists, prevails, is the law and you're wrong if you think otherwise.
and some people in this very thread give her **** for being "tipperless Marth", and far more than just saying she is "slightly worse Marth", which to be honest I don't even agree with that.
"Every matchup in the game is better as Marth because tipper" is actually one of the most ignorant thing I have had the misfortune to read. Sorry, but I had to say it.
The last thing you can do is downplay the amount of **** we hear of our character every day.

You know zero could probably win a tournament with any character in the top half of the cast... slow down.

You know he probably couldn't, because this is not 2015 ZeRo anymore. He has to work and he has to work hard for his wins now; I am sure we all knew he was going to play Lucina if you both watched his streams and caught up on the fact Ally gives his Diddy trouble and his Cloud wasn't gonna cut it.

Hopefully both this tournament and The Arena are gonna make the people who insist Lucina/Corrin "has no results" have to find actual arguments when attempting to downplay them.

 

[Floor]

Depending on where you go, the sentiment that she is Bottom/Low Tier still exists, prevails, is the law and you're wrong if you think otherwise.
and some people in this very thread give her **** for being "tipperless Marth", and far more than just saying she is "slightly worse Marth", which to be honest I don't even agree with that.
"Every matchup in the game is better as Marth because tipper" is actually one of the most ignorant thing I have had the misfortune to read. Sorry, but I had to say it.
The last thing you can do is downplay the amount of **** we hear of our character every day.

You know he probably couldn't, because this is not 2015 ZeRo anymore. He has to work and he has to work hard for his wins now; I am sure we all knew he was going to play Lucina if you both watched his streams and caught up on the fact Ally gives his Diddy trouble and his Cloud wasn't gonna cut it.

Hopefully both this tournament and The Arena are gonna make the people who insist Lucina/Corrin "has no results" have to find actual arguments when attempting to downplay them.

THIS

People want to roll their eyes because "Lucina fangrills are coming out after she gets a win..." No, they don't understand. I would argue that no single character receives more backlash and disregard that Lucina. I've seen it way to many times.

"She's Marth but with no results"
"How can a character with basically no results be top 20?"

And now that she has results people are making excuses.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

THIS

People want to roll their eyes because "Lucina fangrills are coming out after she gets a win..." No, they don't understand. I would argue that no single character receives more backlash and disregard that Lucina. I've seen it way to many times.

"She's Marth but with no results"
"How can a character with basically no results be top 20?"

And now that she has results people are making excuses.

I think everyone has those characters they try to downplay to make room in what they believe the meta looks like. I personally do it with Falcon, where I rate him near the top of mid tier when results-wise he could totally be top 20.

Of course, just as Fatality shows us what his character is capable of time and time again, Lucina crops up in unexpected ways to assert herself as a high-tier threat.

 

[Rizen]

and some people in this very thread give her **** for being "tipperless Marth", and far more than just saying she is "slightly worse Marth", which to be honest I don't even agree with that.

Well, yeah of course people bring up tippers. What differences do Marth and Lucina have besides tippers? Marth's a pixel taller?

THIS

People want to roll their eyes because "Lucina fangrills are coming out after she gets a win..." No, they don't understand. I would argue that no single character receives more backlash and disregard that Lucina. I've seen it way to many times.

"She's Marth but with no results"
"How can a character with basically no results be top 20?"

And now that she has results people are making excuses.

I'm saying this as a Link "fangrill", you do sound like fangrills. ZeRo, the number 1 player in the world, seconds Lucina with Diddy and wins a 296 person tournament, beating a top Mario with her. Is it new that Marcina have a good MU vs Mario? I'm not trying to downplay Lucina's win but other characters worse than her have better wins solo, like T in civil War with Link, CF too. I mean it's fun to point out victories but MKLeo's won a major with Marth and Lucina's overall results are considerably lower than Marth's.
1EE: CURRENT SCORES (UPDATED MARCH 21st)

Cloud: 362.5
Diddy Kong: 349
Bayonetta: 335.5
Sheik: 266.5
Sonic: 192.5
Fox: 183.5
Mario: 179
Rosalina & Luma: 151
Marth: 139.5
Zero Suit Samus: 137
Mewtwo: 131.5
Ryu: 116.5
Meta Knight: 111
Captain Falcon: 92.5
Peach: 82.5
Luigi: 77
Corrin: 75
Villager: 73.5
Greninja: 71
Ness: 63
Lucario: 63
Toon Link: 61.5
Olimar: 60.5
Mega Man: 58
Donkey Kong: 57.5
Pikachu: 54.5
Duck Hunt: 50
R.O.B.: 46
Bowser: 40
Pit: 38
Shulk: 36
Lucina: 34.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 33
Robin: 30
Lucas: 23
Samus: 23
Link: 21
Ike: 20.5
Yoshi: 20.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 16.5
Wario: 14
Roy: 14
Little Mac: 12.5
Charizard: 12
Falco: 11.5
Pac-Man: 11
Palutena: 7.5
Kirby: 2
Zelda: 2
King Dedede: 1
Ganondorf: 1

Link's are too; that's why I'm trying not to jump the gun and places too much weight on one result. Link in Civil War does not make him top tier or even high tier, imo. Not with MK, Falcon Luigi, etc outperforming him. Saying "Now Lucina has results" isn't enough to place her anywhere near Marth.

I'm not saying results alone make the character, that's dumb. Lucina is close to Marth the same way Pit and Dark Pit are close even though the latter has worse results.

My point is, don't have a big knee jerk reaction. If people say Lucina's bottom tier or whatever that's not reflected on the tier list and people say dumb things all the time. This result is good but not game changing.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Is it new that Marcina have a good MU vs Mario?

Depends on who you ask. You'd be surprised.

And this is not a "knee jerk reaction" either, people love throwing that around here - all we Lucina "fangrills" are happy for is that she's finally being used a decent amount and slowly her results are rising because of it. We are more happy as to what could possibly come from this than just the result itself. We don't think this changed anything now, we're happy for what the future could hold.

 

[Vyrnx]

I like to see Lucina's success as an extension of Marcina's success, i.e. when one of those two does well, it usually also means something for the other. That's been the general rule for Lucina for a while; she's been considered a good character because of Marth's success and not being too different from him, and it's just recently that she's been representing herself in good tournament placings as theory predicted.

My reaction to Lucina's success is not, "Ha! Look at what Lucina did and not Marth! Take that all you ignorant Lucina haters!" Mr. E and ZeRo's success moreso confirms the theory that Lucina isn't far off from Marth and that both characters are good. It doesn't really contribute much to whatever this new Lucina agenda of "Lucina is actually better than Marth" is.

It's also getting pretty tiring to hear how misunderstood Lucina is and how we're all idiots; I don't think Lucina is nearly as misunderstood as you all think. "All you people who think Lucina's dancing blade kills at 200--" no, people don't think that. Or the vague and unspecified, "all you guys think x move kills really late but it really doesn't," no, at most we think it kills later than Marth's tipper version.