Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[DunnoBro]

Yea, sheik can also dair to deter rising options or hang too. (Dairing standard get-up can also confirm into BF though it won't kill. Maybe usmash sometimes)

I see Mr. R do a lot of Charge Needles > Roll to ledge > Dair / Hold shield.

 

[OverTime]

He's one of three characters that have such a slow dash grab that shieldgrabbing out of a run is faster. The other two are Ganondorf and Fox.


There is no formal dash grab tier list. There's a standing grab distance tier list here that explains why it's hard to do the math for dash grabs.

To be fair Shield grabbing out of a run is also a better option for Sonic because youcan spin dash Cancel to use the safer option. It's not as cut and dry as straight comparing it to Ganon's.

Still a crap Dash Grab tho, he just happens to have another option to make it still work out.

 

[|RK|]

KEN in particular is really good at playing the same bait and punish game that everyone else does as phyically close to the opponent as possible, while still being just outside of the engagement range.

Interesting - I've been trying to develop a more aggressive bait & punish style. Do you have any sets you think exemplify this psuedo-aggression from KEN?

 

[Ark of Silence101]

So I know this isn't the thread for this, but could i get some help managing 's projectile game? I picked him up as secundary and I need help with this, I already tried the Link boards here, but so far I have received no reply whatsoever.

 

[verbatim]

Interesting - I've been trying to develop a more aggressive bait & punish style. Do you have any sets you think exemplify this psuedo-aggression from KEN?

KEN's run at Umebura SAT is probably going to remain Sonic's best showing for all of Smash 4's life cycle.

2-1 Tsu WQ
3-0 Nairo WS
3-1 Dabuz WF
3-0 Dabuz GF

 

[Das Koopa]

his run at tokaigi was arguably better; 2-0 Ranai, 2-0 Dabuz, 2-0 Abadango, 2-1 tsu, 2-0 ESAM, 3-0 Nairo.

Only issue is he didn't win like he did at SAT, but the Tokaigi bracket was a lot harder

 

[TDK]

Mega Smash Mondays 95 (70 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Elegant
2nd: K9sbruce
3rd: Aarvark
4th: Dynamo

 

[verbatim]

his run at tokaigi was arguably better; 2-0 Ranai, 2-0 Dabuz, 2-0 Abadango, 2-1 tsu, 2-0 ESAM, 3-0 Nairo.

Only issue is he didn't win like he did at SAT, but the Tokaigi bracket was a lot harder

inb4 he 3-0 's Leo in Sonic Cloud at Umebura Japan Major and prove us both wrong.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Ok so, since it caused some reactions, I just want to complement the post I made earlier.
I know no notable player actively advocating to ban Bayonetta.
I know there's no real argument for it.

But an important number of players (remember, the big majority of players are the ones that are not usually at the top) get legitimately upset at just watching her, have trouble understanding her archetype and developing counterplay, and don't hesitate to call her "broken" or even "cancer".

Another key word I just used is "actively". Who knows how many top players do think like that but prefer to stay silent *coughcoughLeo's"ZackwascarriedbyBayo"cough*. Given the chance they would gladly chose to remove a possible tournament threat.

This mentality exists, and imo is passively waiting for a good chance.

 

[Yikarur]

People are always like that.
For some reason they were successful with Mii's, even tho all polls about Mii Moves were in their favor. Europe is doing a far better job in this regard 8)
Bayonetta is a regular character so she won't get hit by the ban train, because there is no foundation to the argument.

Something is only banworthy if picking the strategy is the almost only way to win.

 

[wedl!!]

Ok so, since it caused some reactions, I just want to complement the post I made earlier.
I know no notable player actively advocating to ban Bayonetta.
I know there's no real argument for it.

But an important number of players (remember, the big majority of players are the ones that are not usually at the top) get legitimately upset at just watching her, have trouble understanding her archetype and developing counterplay, and don't hesitate to call her "broken" or even "cancer".

Another key word I just used is "actively". Who knows how many top players do think like that but prefer to stay silent *coughcoughLeo's"ZackwascarriedbyBayo"cough*. Given the chance they would gladly chose to remove a possible tournament threat.

This mentality exists, and imo is passively waiting for a good chance.

paranoid, authoritarian mentalities are destined to fail, no matter how prevalent they are

 

[MERPIS]

A few pages back people were talking about Bayonetta planking? What is this planking thing?

 

[Zelder]

Ok so, since it caused some reactions, I just want to complement the post I made earlier.
I know no notable player actively advocating to ban Bayonetta.
I know there's no real argument for it.

But an important number of players (remember, the big majority of players are the ones that are not usually at the top) get legitimately upset at just watching her, have trouble understanding her archetype and developing counterplay, and don't hesitate to call her "broken" or even "cancer".

Another key word I just used is "actively". Who knows how many top players do think like that but prefer to stay silent *coughcoughLeo's"ZackwascarriedbyBayo"cough*. Given the chance they would gladly chose to remove a possible tournament threat.

This mentality exists, and imo is passively waiting for a good chance.

Internet discussions got completely to **** whenever people start pointing towards nebulous "others" that definitely totally think something, probably. Maybe.

What I'm saying is, let's not start circle jerking about how people who call for Bayonetta to get banned are stupid when...no one is calling for Bayonetta to get banned. People definitely think Bayonetta is cancerous (and to be fair, I've also seen players say Mario is cancerous, so...you know), but they aren't currently in this thread, so what is gained from talking about them? When it starts up, hell yeah let's have that chat all day. But before it starts, it's just signaling how much cooler we are than the vast majority of players.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Or maybe we could just end this discussion civilly and move on to something else? Might just help lessen the drama.

 

[|RK|]

So I know this isn't the thread for this, but could i get some help managing 's projectile game? I picked him up as secundary and I need help with this, I already tried the Link boards here, but so far I have received no reply whatsoever.

Try the Link Discord!

You can get there by going to: www.smashcords.com

Click Smash 4 > Character Discords > Link

 

[Nah]

Or maybe we could just end this discussion civilly and move on to something else?

oh, good, i wanted to talk more about my favorite topics like Pika Uthrow->Thunder anyway

Really though I don't see why we can't continue to talk about Bayo planking stuff for as long as it'll naturally last. We can discuss controversial topics, people just gotta relax.

 

[Zelder]

I will start taking hostages if this somehow leads back to a Marth vs Lucina discussion.

 

[MERPIS]

A few pages back people were talking about Bayonetta planking? What is this planking thing?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I will start taking hostages if this somehow leads back to a Marth vs Lucina discussion.

Marths tipper fair bair ftilt and jab are better against bayonettas planking because kill potential

Fight me

 

[TDK]

I will start taking hostages if this somehow leads back to a Marth vs Lucina discussion.

This is the best thing to come out of this thread.

 

[Zelder]

Marths tipper fair bair ftilt and jab are better against bayonettas planking because kill potential

Fight me

*fires warning shot over the crowd*

MERPIS

It's a new Bayonetta strategy employed by most Bayo's, but being driven largely by Captain Zack. By utilizing Witch Twist, her aerials, and the third jump glitch, she's able to stay on the edge for quite a long time. Here are some examples:

https://clips.twitch.tv/EmpathicGracefulEggOSfrog

https://clips.twitch.tv/WittyCooperativeStarLitFam

https://clips.twitch.tv/AmorphousLazyKuduFrankerZ

Also, Captain Zack recently released a tweet stating how effective this is versus certain characters.

https://twitter.com/CaptainZack_/status/858906026145460224

We're seeing a lot of discussion about it because Captain Zack has been using it quite effectively as of late. Counterplay is still young, and we've seen grousings about a ledge grab limit (JUST discussions about it, calm thyselfs) from Bear and the backroom.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Going to drop this here for anyone interested - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mIbIFkfCBzmTuzl8naFLPMEkm0fEZfRML96mbQ2nPxc/edit#gid=0

Saw this today; it is an ongoing list of all active UK players and who their tournament mains and secondaries are.

I find it more interesting on finding out which characters are the most popular.

The first place character may shock some.

also ya boi is somehow on there ayy

 

[ARISTOS]

Going to drop this here for anyone interested - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mIbIFkfCBzmTuzl8naFLPMEkm0fEZfRML96mbQ2nPxc/edit#gid=0

Saw this today; it is an ongoing list of all active UK players and who their tournament mains and secondaries are.

I find it more interesting on finding out which characters are the most popular.

The first place character may shock some.

also ya boi is somehow on there ayy

This spreadsheet design is ****ing atrocious.

As is the fact that of all characters Yoshi is the most popular

 

[Yonder]

This spreadsheet design is ****ing atrocious.

As is the fact that of all characters Yoshi is the most popular

Eh, Yoshi being popular at local level is quite common actually. Back when I used to still go to BC locals, Yoshi, Ness, and Falcon were the most played. Guess they have the pick up and play appeal. I'll never forget the day where I was the sole Luigi in a bracket of 100% Falcon mains...(true story, 6 people in my pool but all Falcon)

Yoshi exudes that pick up and play with easy results factor. But he's a trap when people find out he really isn't and should just go back to Cloud or Mario.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Going to drop this here for anyone interested - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mIbIFkfCBzmTuzl8naFLPMEkm0fEZfRML96mbQ2nPxc/edit#gid=0

Saw this today; it is an ongoing list of all active UK players and who their tournament mains and secondaries are.

I find it more interesting on finding out which characters are the most popular.

The first place character may shock some.

also ya boi is somehow on there ayy

I've done this with the sheets that Juddy96 did about the entrants of Umebura Japan Major
The pastebin is available right here, just counted the amount of a character rather than names: https://pastebin.com/BvMKKHyY

Fun facts about popularity of characters:
- Fox always seems to be more popular than i ever imagine him to be, with 18 player. I'm aware that he's quite a neat local threat with fairly strong & accessible combos that can get you wins, but i wouldn't have imagined it attracting this many players.
- Damn, Japan has a lot of Pikachus, it's pretty impressive, knowing the image most of us have about Pikachu, historically a character that has been carried by one very talented player since Melee.
- As i told Y Yonder back then about Doc's horrendous representation, Doc has no players registered for Umebura Japan Major ( as far as we know, some of the entrants who's main isn't known may be a Doc player ) , and he's the only character aside from Miis to not have a single player. For reference, Ganondorf & Jigglypuff have 5 players each. Tl;dr this character is hopeless.
- Duck Hunt just seems to have a very talented playerbase, rather than a huge one, even in Japan: Only 3 DH mains registered
- The plumbers aren't that popular in Japan. Mario, who most would have expected to be the pick of many players, only has 7 players, below such characters as Pac-Man or Little Mac.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

This spreadsheet design is ****ing atrocious.

As is the fact that of all characters Yoshi is the most popular

Totally not a biased lens.

 

[Floor]

Going to drop this here for anyone interested - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mIbIFkfCBzmTuzl8naFLPMEkm0fEZfRML96mbQ2nPxc/edit#gid=0

Saw this today; it is an ongoing list of all active UK players and who their tournament mains and secondaries are.

I find it more interesting on finding out which characters are the most popular.

The first place character may shock some.

also ya boi is somehow on there ayy

And Crocketz is not honestly I'm surprised at how many I knew and that MysticEyes apparently has a MK and a Fox... We need one of these for every region; would be wonderful to have a large database with this kind of info

Also, I don't care what we talk about here, but we were discussing a solution to planking yet I never saw anyone mention a solution of counter play... all that was tossed around was "ban bayo/LGL/complain"... if you want to drop the Bayo discussion, that's fine, but it was never actually discussed. I would be interested in seeing how a Link or a Toon Link uses projectiles to possible stop Bayo... and most importantly, perhaps Leo, Mr. E, or ZeRo or Nairo could utilize the rare stun jacket with Marth and Lucina to take some cheeky stocks

 

[ARISTOS]

Totally not a biased lens.

?

Where is the bias?

My opinion is that Yoshi has an unusually high number of players in contrast to the character's ability. But Y Yonder pretty well summarizes why this is the case.

 

[TDK]

https://www.gofundme.com/help-dominican-republic-reach-ceo?rcid=3091151d9e80495eac6469da42225835

The dominican republic is trying to send some of their best to CEO 2017. This includes Sharpy , Sonix , Papin , and menaRD .

Seeing what Sharpy could do with a better bracket is awesome

Oh, and Nova has been fully funded for Greninja Saga.

 

[MERPIS]

*fires warning shot over the crowd*

MERPIS

It's a new Bayonetta strategy employed by most Bayo's, but being driven largely by Captain Zack. By utilizing Witch Twist, her aerials, and the third jump glitch, she's able to stay on the edge for quite a long time. Here are some examples:

https://clips.twitch.tv/EmpathicGracefulEggOSfrog

https://clips.twitch.tv/WittyCooperativeStarLitFam

https://clips.twitch.tv/AmorphousLazyKuduFrankerZ

Also, Captain Zack recently released a tweet stating how effective this is versus certain characters.

https://twitter.com/CaptainZack_/status/858906026145460224

We're seeing a lot of discussion about it because Captain Zack has been using it quite effectively as of late. Counterplay is still young, and we've seen grousings about a ledge grab limit (JUST discussions about it, calm thyselfs) from Bear and the backroom.

Oh that's just dumb

https://www.gofundme.com/help-dominican-republic-reach-ceo?rcid=3091151d9e80495eac6469da42225835

The dominican republic is trying to send some of their best to CEO 2017. This includes Sharpy , Sonix , Papin , and menaRD .

Seeing what Sharpy could do with a better bracket is awesome

Oh, and Nova has been fully funded for Greninja Saga.

Sonix is gonna be pure hype, 3rd best sonic main from what I've read on the gofund me page, just after KEN and 6wx

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Yoshi exudes that pick up and play with easy results factor. But he's a trap when people find out he really isn't and should just go back to Cloud or Mario.

Pick up and play isn't really how I'd describe Yoshi.

Due to certain awkward attributes (no easy Up B for recovery, laggy grab, reliance on being in the air, mobility, etc.), he can be rather alienating for several players. One of the reasons I enjoyed playing as the character (aside from being a fan of his games) is because of the challenge that comes with maining the character.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Internet discussions got completely to **** whenever people start pointing towards nebulous "others" that definitely totally think something, probably. Maybe.

What I'm saying is, let's not start circle jerking about how people who call for Bayonetta to get banned are stupid when...no one is calling for Bayonetta to get banned. People definitely think Bayonetta is cancerous (and to be fair, I've also seen players say Mario is cancerous, so...you know), but they aren't currently in this thread, so what is gained from talking about them? When it starts up, hell yeah let's have that chat all day. But before it starts, it's just signaling how much cooler we are than the vast majority of players.

I mean, I've heard it in person; read it on twitter, reddit, youtube, and twitchchat (fwiw). I am not just randomly blaming "them", I'm telling a legit anecdote and having legit concerns.

That being said, maybe I'm simply around those places a bit too much and getting impregnated with those muddy thoughts. Thankfully this is a (mostly) more sane place to have proper discussions.

 

[Rizen]

Also, I don't care what we talk about here, but we were discussing a solution to planking yet I never saw anyone mention a solution of counter play... all that was tossed around was "ban bayo/LGL/complain"... if you want to drop the Bayo discussion, that's fine, but it was never actually discussed. I would be interested in seeing how a Link or a Toon Link uses projectiles to possible stop Bayo... and most importantly, perhaps Leo, Mr. E, or ZeRo or Nairo could utilize the rare stun jacket with Marth and Lucina to take some cheeky stocks

You mean her planking? Link can challenge that fine with bombs. Arrows and boomerang curve down but with ledge invulnerability only happening the first grab he doesn't need them. Link has to be aware of bullet climax and arts and not jump into them but he can out camp her.
When I say out-camp I mean 'force to approach with projectiles'. You can't camp the entire game; you'll be caught and have to switch to sword zoning. Link can't pure camp. Everything he does relates to spacing and creating openings while limiting options.

That's a nice thing about Link: he can safely challenge any recovery with projectiles then Ftilt when they can't grab the ledge. Even scary recoveries like Marcina's.

I don't see why the gap is that big but why Link does better is he has much better disjointed reach than TL. Link can Ftilt 2 frame ledge grabs and the ending part of the swing hits well below the ledge. Link's bombs can be planted so Link can Z drop or soft throw one to cover rolls while doing his other anti-planking tactics or simply soft throw a bomb to the ledge so the next attack of Bayo's will get blown up and react with Fair or smash the ledge roll.

Link has really good ledge return coverage if he has time to setup.

 

[Megamang]

Megaman has metal blade, which beats out all the movement specials IIRC. The followups from this can be pretty threatening, since you really don't want to get baired by the ledge, especially at bayo's weight. Z drops in the ledge area are great for pressure since you have great room to vary the timing + use aerials/pellets to supplement the pressure. A MB stage spike won't kill the witch outright, but you can jump on the chance with some bair/nair action and hope you snagged a jump and get repeated stage spikes.


Leaf shield can apply some pressure in a weird way, such as putting it up then snatching the ledge from bayo... But I'm pretty sure a bayo adept at planking takes the ledge before you, or just stays low then WT the ledge when you lose your grab invincibility? If grabbing the ledge quickly was an option, everyone could beat this, so I'm assuming it isn't doable against properly executed planking. In general LS is pretty **** in the MU due to the ease of Witch Timing it, and getting hit with it and not having access to Rush immediately is really scary. So it having a little use on the ledge is a neat little mention, but honestly I don't think its worth using vs Bayo's massive limbs. Rush can make things very interesting, you can use a rush planted right at the edge to cancel the landing lag from anything, and bouncing off him to go offstage to fight is a decent choice since you get your jump and another rush back. You can, for example, space a FF dair to hit the snap zone and still get a rush bounce with proper weaving.

All Rush strategy is high risk high reward if you both decide to bounce up there. Megaman has his infamous uair kills, which will kill Bayo WITHOUT her panic jumping at such a height. Bair can also provide some early kills, DI up kills you and DI out optimally can still kill earlier than normal.

Crash bomber... Meh. To get it to stick to the ledge, you have to go well into the danger zone, so its really really not worth it. Sticking her can put some quirky pressure on her; if she times her stuff wrong it can either stage spike her, or you can go out there and get a bair (at kill %) or uair (below bair kill %) combo off the CB.

"Fun"... fact, bayo can Witch Time the (non damaging, may I remind you...) stick from the CB impact. This really disappointed me upon learning, because CB was supposed to be a nice way to pressure her without threat of dying for shooting a 2% pellet... She can WT the explosion of course, but if you get a stick you could either dash back or Rush into the air for safety.

So metal blade and Rush are the best options for specials. Normal I can also explain if anyone wants that, but they are more universal/obvious. Bair is a strong disjoint, so hit her with it. Dair is actually pretty unique, disjointed projectile spike, which is also a decent option vs Bayo.

Oh, and this is a situation where MegaMains are actually GLAD to have charge buster for his fwd smash! I'd still take it at 0.15x power, stored to be shot at the opening to a pellet salvo :]

 

[Nemesis561]

EDIT: nvm, disregard this post

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Try the Link Discord!

You can get there by going to: www.smashcords.com

Click Smash 4 > Character Discords > Link

Thank you. I'll do just that.

https://www.gofundme.com/help-dominican-republic-reach-ceo?rcid=3091151d9e80495eac6469da42225835

The dominican republic is trying to send some of their best to CEO 2017. This includes Sharpy , Sonix , Papin , and menaRD .

Seeing what Sharpy could do with a better bracket is awesome

Oh, and Nova has been fully funded for Greninja Saga.

What? No Digital Strider ?

 

[TDK]

Thank you. I'll do just that.
What? No Digital Strider ?

The only ones mentioned on the GFM were those four. Shame, I know. The real draw here is definitely Sharpy.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

The only ones mentioned on the GFM were those four. Shame, I know. The real draw here is definitely Sharpy.

I have been thinking for a while, who is the best Zard? I know a lot of people look for Sharpy when asked this but after watching Serge compete like that at Smash Factor Toluca, he might make a strong case if he got more results with Zard.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I have been thinking for a while, who is the best Zard? I know a lot of people look for Sharpy when asked this but after watching Serge compete like that at Smash Factor Toluca, he might make a strong case if he got more results with Zard.

I've heard most Zard mains say Serge is the best Charizard around.
Also, a fair amount of Zard mains seem to think Sharpy's overrated, sometimes considering some Zards well above him, the other 2 most common answer being Tosshi from Japan ( who has a win over Ranai ) and Fire from France ( who has been doing increasingly good in Europe lately )

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I've heard most Zard mains say Serge is the best Charizard around.
Also, a fair amount of Zard mains seem to think Sharpy's overrated, sometimes considering some Zards well above him, the other 2 most common answer being Tosshi from Japan ( who has a win over Ranai ) and Fire from France ( who has been doing increasingly good in Europe lately )

Darn shame Serge doesn't have a visa to compete in the U.S., even worse, he is known for sometimes pulling off occasionals lolm2k and just quit the tourney he is for some reason.