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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Luigi player

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:4dk: has been doing well as of late, but I'm still skeptical about considering him a high tier character for now. His MUs against :4zss: :4tlink: :rosalina: :4sonic: :4fox: are awful.
It's DK. A lot of his MU are "awful", but with the Ding Dong he can still win them somewhat realistically, having them be much closer to even.

ZSS isn't that bad. Hikaru also has her listed as even.
I'm not sure about Tink. He's hard to Ding Dong and his camping is likely annoying, but it's not like DK can't catch people in the air with his amazing bair or catch someone on the ground with his amazing grabrange and get very good rewards from them. Tink probably wins, not sure if it's that bad, though.
Rosa is pretty bad.
Sonic idk. It's hard to catch him, but not impossible. Dunno why people think it's so bad. Sonic probably has the advantage but I don't see how it's awful.
Fox is super hard for DK. Fox can kill, combos DK for days, has all his vortexes and stuff to keep DK from getting back into neutral from disadvantage. But it's also not impossible to win. It's really really hard, but not impossible. DK just needs like 3-4 wins/trades in neutral and a grab. I think it's more in the range of 4-6 in favor of Fox than worse.

Imo I think ZSS could possibly be even, Rosa ~35-65 and the others ~4-6 or 45-55.

Hikaru also has it this way on his MU chart, except for the "possibly 45-55".

In his MU chart he also has a lot of (14 to be exact) MUs between 4-6 and 5-5 that DK loses slightly, so it's not like he thinks DK would only have very few losing MUs.

(Together in the 4-6 list he also has Yoshi, Diddy and Sheik. Link to his tweet for reference: https://twitter.com/HIKARU061206120/status/849803260101771268 )
 

Jaguar360

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Doesn't Marcbri mostly play Sheik? Thought i saw on his twitter when he posted his tier list for the v3 one that he was #1 sheik in spain or something.......
He does have a Sheik, but all I saw was Diddy on stream and Marcbri didn't say anything about his character choice when Tetra posted the results on Twitter with only Diddy.
 

TDK

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Don't blink, because Glitch 3 pools are out. Two advance.

A7: Pugwest :4marth: in winners, Coney :4mario: in losers
A8: Deathorse :4mewtwo: in winners, Ling Ling :4peach: in losers
B5: ZeRo :4diddy: in winners, F.O.E. :4greninja: in losers
B6: Captain Zack :4bayonetta2: in winners, Feel Tension :4fox: :4ryu: in losers
B7: Pink Fresh :4bayonetta2: in winners, Xerom :4ness: in losers
B8: Seagull Joe :4sonic: in winners, Iota :4wario: in losers
C5: Zinoto :4diddy: in winners, Mekos :4lucas: in losers
C6: Mr. E :4marth: in winners, Qwerty :4lucario: :4charizard: in losers
C7: DarkShad :4ryu: in winners, Rags :4metaknight: in losers
C8: ZD :4fox: in winners, Utopian Ray :rosalina: in losers
D2: Black Yoshi :4bayonetta2: in winners, SoVa Unknown :4link: in losers
D3: WaDi :4mewtwo: :4rob: in winners, Mister Eric :4rob: in losers
D4: Dexter :4corrinf: :4marth: in winners, Puppeh :4sheik: in losers
D5: 6WX :4sonic: in winners, JeBB :4lucas: in losers
D6: Remzi :4zss: in winners, Promaelia :4corrinf: :4palutena: in losers
D7: Zephyr :4cloud2: in winners, Craftis :4sonic: in losers


https://twitter.com/gsmVoiD/status/858709231922536449
 
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Marcbri

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Doesn't Marcbri mostly play Sheik? Thought i saw on his twitter when he posted his tier list for the v3 one that he was #1 sheik in spain or something.......
Diddy main since I dropped Pit. I do have a pocket Sheik but I dont use him much nor I am the best Sheik in Spain.

Edit: btw Mana did go Marth against Fire in top 8 but I'm pretty sure he used mostly Toon Link to get there
 
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Aaron1997

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KSB 2017 pools are out. Btw only the WINNER of the pool goes to main bracket but there is Grands so you most likely have to win 2 sets vs the same player. (Note: this is not at Umebura, this is in Osaka)

Projected Grand Finals

http://challonge.com/KSB2017S4T

Pool A KEN:4sonic:vs Jan:rosalina::4ryu:

Pool B 2GG | komorikiri:4cloud2::4sonic::4marth:vs Lickey:4metaknight:

Pool C Shuton :4olimar:vs Ginko:4pacman:

Pool D 9B:4bayonetta:vs Raito:4duckhunt:

Pool E Ranai:4villager:vs Souther:4falcon:

Pool F HIKARU :4dk:vs Ri-ma:4tlink:

Pool G Atelier:rosalina:vs Chanshu:4ryu:

Pool H You3 :4duckhunt:vs Masashi:4cloud2:

Pool i Oishiitofu:4greninja:vs Sigma:4tlink:

Pool J Kuro:4pit:vs FILIP:4mario::4cloud2:

Pool K LG.Abadango:4mewtwo::4bayonetta:vs OCEAN:4rob:
 

Y2Kay

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Good disadvantage states is so important for a top character to have. The characters like Rosa and Fox don't have the best disadvantage states, it's still leagues of ahead of the likes of Donkey Kong.

Donkey Kong's recovery and ledge options are frankly too pathetic for me to call him a high tier, or a top 20 character.

:150:
 

L9999

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Good disadvantage states is so important for a top character to have. The characters like Rosa and Fox don't have the best disadvantage states, it's still leagues of ahead of the likes of Donkey Kong.

Donkey Kong's recovery and ledge options are frankly too pathetic for me to call him a high tier, or a top 20 character.

:150:
It's DK. A lot of his MU are "awful", but with the Ding Dong he can still win them somewhat realistically, having them be much closer to even.
Grab2win and how some highly regarded characters have fallen off make DK look really good right now.
 
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|RK|

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ANTi, please never use that Rosa again >.>

Serge :4charizard: 3-0 ANTi :4sheik: :rosalina:
Ah, poor ANTi. Sheik isn't a great character to play against... anyone unless you know the MU (because she is/was so common), Cloud is probably also bad to use against Serge (b/c MU experience + good MU for Zard), he maintains that Zard is good against Mario, and then Rosa... frankly, I doubt it's good against someone who probably knows the MU. And it's that last thing I wanna focus on.

I don't think ANTi has gotten worse as a player - I think the meta has just advanced in the past few months. Not shifted - straight up advanced. People know their characters and MUs much better now (especially with the top characters). I think a fast and loose counterpicking style only works under one of three conditions: 1) the character you're choosing hard counters the opponent's character beyond what is acceptable (that is Ganon vs pre-patch Sheik bad. Or more relevant, Rosa vs DK), 2) you know the ins and outs of your counterpick character's MUs, 3) your opponent is seriously lost in that MU.

I think 2) is the most important as it concerns ANTi - I think he gets by a lot on his sheer skill, but people are starting to know their MUs at a level where your counterpick needs to be *solid*. Also see: ANTi's Cloud vs Elegant.

ANTi is an incredibly smart player - I genuinely think he just needs to A) stick with a character, and B) learn every MU possible with them. Even to pick up a secondary for one or two MUs, people are spending months. Ally is taking his DK to locals, and ZeRo did the same with Lucina. ANTi gets by a lot on his sheer skill, but Smash 4 demands character knowledge as well.

/opinions by a random
 

Illuminose

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i'm pretty sure anti just went mario in winners, then lost to dano with it, and used mario vs both klein/lazh before losing to serge with diddy->zard->rosa. no sheik.
 

DunnoBro

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Wow guys, a whole third of the cast can deal with it. Including the top tiers! (except more than half the top tiers)

This won't effect the meta in any significant enough way to justify discussing it on a thread dedicated to discussing the meta!

Why don't we discuss Lucina vs Marth again instead?

:DDDDDDD
 
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Krysco

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https://twitter.com/CaptainZack_/status/858906026145460224

Captain Zack's tier list on how well Bayo's Ledge planking works on the cast.

Characters he doesn't think it's worth it to ledge plank vs is over a third of the cast, including all the top tiers (Barring :4diddy: :4sonic: :4zss:, who it's easy to do against, and :4mario:, who it's doable)

Yeah, this isn't broken, move on.
Some notable oddities to me from that:
:4darkpit: is hard but :4pit: is doable. Electroshock making it too risky I'm guessing?
:4link: being hard but :4tlink: being easy even though they both have at least 2 downward angled projectiles. Guessing Link's harder punishes are the reason
:4charizard: is hard but :4bowser: is easy. Guessing super armor + fire is more worth than just fire. Though if Bayo goes on stage at all, shouldn't she have to fear grab more from Bowser?
:4rob: firing gyro in such a way that it sits on the ledge doesn't matter? Witch Twist may eat through it.
:4falco: is hard? Ledge trump bair? Reflector? Lol blaster?
 

Das Koopa

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Weekend results.

1st: ZeRo :4diddy:, :4lucina:
2nd: MKLeo :4marth:, :4cloud2:
3rd: Ally :4mario:
4th: Larry Lurr :4fox:
5th: ESAM :4pikachu:, :4samus:
5th: VoiD :4sheik:, :4fox:
7th: Konga :4dk:
7th: Locus :4ryu:
9th: K9sbruce :4sheik:, :4diddy:
9th: MVD :4diddy:
9th: Captain Zack :4bayonetta:
9th: Deluxemenu :4bowser:
13th: Whispy :4diddy:
13th: Dakpo :4diddy:, :4zss::4luigi:
13th: Karna :4sheik:
13th: Weegee :4mario:

1st: Glutonny :4wario:
2nd: Fatality :4falcon:
3rd: Griffith :4fox:, :4megaman::4mario:
4th: IxisNaugus :4sonic:
5th: Marcbri :4diddy:
5th: Fire :4charizard:
7th: Greil :4bayonetta:, :4corrinf:
7th: Mana :4marth:

1st: Javi :4sheik:, :4drmario:
2nd: Chag :4bayonetta:
3rd: CloudY :4feroy:, :4cloud2:
4th: Hyuga :4tlink:
5th: NAKAT :4fox:, :4pikachu::4ness:
5th: Serge :4charizard:, :4lucario:
7th: D.POLLO :4bowser:
7th: ANTi :4mario:

1st: HIKARU :4dk:
2nd: Mattun :4cloud2:
3rd: Hiro :4bayonetta:
4th: Shuton :4olimar:
5th: Kome :4shulk:
5th: Ri-ma :4tlink:
7th: Beji :4pacman:
7th: HIDE :4sonic:

1st: Tweek :4cloud2:
2nd: False :4marth:
3rd: Colinies :4fox:
4th: WOOD :4wario2:
5th: Midnight :rosalina:, :4lucario::4greninja:
5th: xane :4metaknight:
7th: Acnupp :4luigi:
7th: H-man :4sonic:

1st: ZD :4fox:
2nd: Seagull Joe :4sonic:
3rd: Dexter :4corrinf:, :4marth:
4th: Rags :4fox:, :4metaknight:

1st: Jtails :4diddy:
2nd: Mr. Peabody :4fox:
3rd: Slither2Hunter :4metaknight:
4th: Coasty :4diddy:

1st: Alphicans :4diddy:
2nd: 2ManyCooks :4mario:
3rd: Exodia :4zss:
4th: MD :4sonic:

1st: Luco :4lucas:, :4ness:
2nd: MM :4palutena:
3rd: Dr. Ainuss :4fox:
4th: Sriks :4shulk:
 

Luco

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Das Koopa Das Koopa for NAD MM used :4miibrawl: and :4olimar: primarily, and then :4palutena:

Couple more released on Aus PR, #10 Jdizzle :4tlink: (Vic) and #9 MM :4olimar: :4miibrawl: :4palutena: (NSW)

In other news, heavyweights ( :4dk: :4charizard: and if you consider him a heavyweight :4wario: ) Did really well this weekend. Something to keep in mind as we look at future results.

And I would disagree slightly with Chainz in that I feel neutral ---> strong advantage state is potentially coming into play now over just having a strong neutral + disadvantage (which used to be the biggest of deals) and the meta might genuinely be shifting again.

Which is a good thing, probably.
 

Skeeter Mania

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In other news, heavyweights ( :4dk: :4charizard: and if you consider him a heavyweight :4wario: ) Did really well this weekend. Something to keep in mind as we look at future results.
Bowser also did pretty well with Deluxemenu's 9th finish at DreamHack with a set win over players like Zinoto.
 

Das Koopa

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currently writing up character point %s by player

If we drop non-consistent secondary usage among Cloud players, his scores drops from 532.5 to (around) 484.5. I'm being careful to not drop MKLeo, Mr. R, ANTi, or other players who consistently use Cloud as secondarys or co-mains, just one-off or one-game examples of Cloud usage. This puts him into a definitive third - ahead of Sheik, behind both Bayonetta and Diddy Kong, who garner roughly the same score.

I haven't done this for other characters since no other high tier character (sans Lucina) shows continuous benefiting in the scores from secondary usage. This is a part of my big data post that'll be up soon-ish. Maybe today, maybe tomorrow.
 

Das Koopa

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Fox is just really good at juggling and it's hard to get out of, especially if you're a huge character with bad mobility like DK. Uair is fast and it hits like a truck and it's hard to not keep falling into it or setups that lead into it. It can be done multiple times at lower % and at higher % other moves can lead into one Uair and then if you get a follow-up from there you take the stock.

fox up air in Sm4sh is almost as dumb as it is in Melee
 
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Nemesis561

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I am slow; somebody explain the Fox Vortex to me please?
Up tilt up tilt up tilt up tilt up tilt up air up air up air..... its worse if there is platforms... also the fact that there is no correct way to get out of it a lot of the time because if you air dodge the up air, fox can frame trap into up tilt, and hence the vortex begins again
 
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ARISTOS

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I am slow; somebody explain the Fox Vortex to me please?
A short version of it here starting around 4:06


Essentially using the short landing lag of uair to consistently keep you in a juggle state.

After you use utilt you can go for a SH uair- if it connects then you can prob. follow up with another uair but even if the opponent air dodges Fox falls fast enough to be in position for another utilt and the scenario plays over again.
 

Nemesis561

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So can we talk about Wario? Glutonny is showing how scary this character can be when the Wario player is so ready and adept and punishing any mistake the opponent may make with jab lock and footstool punishes which can kill at absurd percents. (If you get jab locked at any percent, with full waft on deck you're as good dead if the wario is proficient at the footstool combos) I'm not saying this character is vastly underrated or anything like that but his meta is definitely being pushed and it's cool to see, wario mains are loyal, maybe to a fault lol.

Question, how much do you guys think the three stock european meta helps wario?
 

Das Koopa

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DK's mobility isn't bad at all.
I should emphasize that I'm referring to the mobility in his disadvantage state, like when he's in the air and basically is forced to go to the ledge. Probably should just call it his bad landing options.
 

outfoxd

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Is Zacks planking chart basing some of the worth of the strategy on if she'd actually need to? He classea DH and WFT as hard and i wonder if it's because the Bayo should just be slapping them around normally.
 

Poisonous

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So can we talk about Wario? Glutonny is showing how scary this character can be when the Wario player is so ready and adept and punishing any mistake the opponent may make with jab lock and footstool punishes which can kill at absurd percents. (If you get jab locked at any percent, with full waft on deck you're as good dead if the wario is proficient at the footstool combos) I'm not saying this character is vastly underrated or anything like that but his meta is definitely being pushed and it's cool to see, wario mains are loyal, maybe to a fault lol.

Question, how much do you guys think the three stock european meta helps wario?
Wario will never be more than a mid tier without any patches. Warios are blessed with having two PHENOMENAL players as their top reps, Reflex and Glutonny, but don't let their personal skill confuse you. Besides these two there are a plethora of great Warios out there honestly, but the current meta isn't kind to Wario at all. Players such as Capt W, Snorley, Waymas, Austin, Lord Frieza, Iota, Harlonga, C4, BGG, and Mundo are all great Warios in their own right who have gotten good wins. A few weeks ago, Waymas took mk Leo to g5 and almost beat his Cloud (unfortunately missing some key punishes hurt him). Snorley has been doing great recently, beating ESAM and 8Bitman. C4 and Capt W have nearly beaten Ally, all of these Warios are amazing players, but unfortunately Wario just isn't that viable in the current meta and as such you won't see him commonly. Much of his current rep were Brawl Warios (Reflex, Glutonny, Waymas, Austin, and Iota I know for sure off the top of my head) and are just dedicated Warios. None of them will tell you Wario is more than a mid tier, and some will even say he's a low tier.

Wario has a plethora of moves (Chomp, Fair, Nair, Bair, Dair are the common ones that all work at different % ranges, but he also has some DI mixups that let fthrow or dthrow setup as well) that put you into tumble and setup for jablocks off late fair and late dash attack. He has footstool combos too, mainly setup off nair or falling uair which can lead to huge punishes for sure. Waft is broken as **** and gives Wario a huge X factor of course, but he still needs to take a stock without it most of the time (or use half waft twice which most Warios prefer). His maneuverability, busted specials, and recovery are his main selling points. Chomp is a godsend in neutral, and having it allows him to threaten shields in a unique way.

However, that just isn't enough in this meta. Wario's 3 worst MUs are generally thought to be Sonic, Bayonetta, and Cloud. There is a bit of dissent on Bayo being ranked with the other two, but at the very least Reflex agrees with me that those are his personal 3 worst as well. Besides those 3 abysmal MUs, he also has a few other 60:40 MUs such as ZSS, M2, ROB, Diddy, Fox, and Marcina. With the exceptions of ROB and ZSS, those are some of the most common tournament used characters . A Wario is guaranteed to run into multiple of these every (relavant) tournament. His only good MUs against solid chars are vs Lucario, Luigi, Megaman, Rosalina, Bowser, and Olimar. As such, he doesn't have much utility as a secondary which is why you mainly only see Wario mains.

Funny enough, Glutonny prefers two stock to three stock and has been advocating for France to switch over to 2 stock. Most Warios prefer 2 stock to 3, although as with any subject there will always be a bit of dissent. I'm not saying Wario is hopeless, but with his 3 worst MUs being top 6 characters, and being very common most levels of play, it's unlikely that we'll ever see Wario do much more than what we current see. You'll have what looks like breakout performances when Glutonny and Reflex travel and take names, but they can't travel often for various reasons and their wins are generally a byproduct of their personal skill levels rather than Warios viability.

tldr; Wario sux, play Bayonetta.
 
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