Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[DunnoBro]

Custom villager was a unique case where a character had on stage presence and zoning while simultaneously being offstage. That logic doesn't apply here. She is vulnerable doing this it doesn't need a rule against it.

Are you implying Bayonetta can't apply significant pressure while offstage? Regardless, I wasn't comparing them on their potency but rather pointing out GIANT PROTECTIVE HITBOXES can easily replace invincibility. Whether or not it does in Bayo's case as well is of course up for discussion.

 

[NotLiquid]

To be honest I'm really starting to "get" what Emblem Lord has been talking about all this time about a lot of Smash 4's players being immature.

 

[chaos11011]

I posted about it on the Dreamhack thread, but counterplay is yet to be developed. I say we should wait. As a DH main, I'm already speculating ideas to challenge it with my character and hopefully push her into a stalemate/coax her back on stage.

 

[blackghost]

Are you implying Bayonetta can't apply significant pressure while offstage? Regardless, I wasn't comparing them on their potency but rather pointing out GIANT PROTECTIVE HITBOXES can easily replace invincibility. Whether or not it does in Bayo's case as well is of course up for discussion.

Watching the match with Mvd and then watching the match with ally it appears Zach did it more to mess with Mvd. Because when ally challenged him he stopped.

Comparing trip sapling to bay hotboxes isn't the point. Villager was safe. The coubterplay such as cloud dtilt,. Mario slide, and other coubterplay wouldn't work on custom villager it does work on bayo. The hitboxes are large but unlike sapling they aren't lasting 20 seconds. You cansl ashield bayo hitboxes and then respond with a move that clips the ledge.

 

[DunnoBro]

Watching the match with Mvd and then watching the match with ally it appears Zach did it more to mess with Mvd. Because when ally challenged him he stopped.

Comparing trip sapling to bay hotboxes isn't the point. Villager was safe. The coubterplay such as cloud dtilt,. Mario slide, and other coubterplay wouldn't work on custom villager it does work on bayo. The hitboxes are large but unlike sapling they aren't lasting 20 seconds. You cansl ashield bayo hitboxes and then respond with a move that clips the ledge.

Again, you're missing the point. The potency, levels and reliability of counterplay, I'm not touching on any of that. Just that competitively viable planking IS POSSIBLE within the mechanics of this game, even without i-frames on regrab.

 

[blackghost]

Again, you're missing the point. The potency, levels and reliability of counterplay, I'm not touching on any of that. Just that competitively viable planking IS POSSIBLE within the mechanics of this game, even without i-frames on regrab.

It is possible when your opponent does nothing to challenge it. You can't make statements about something that happens in a game and not consider potency anf counterplay. That makes no sense. You can't say that there's nothing that could be done and ignore when someone says what could have been done.
There are characters that can go ledge and regain invincibility at the regrab. Shiek can it was in a beefy smash video. Bayo cannot Namco and Nintendo changed the mechanics of the game to combat this and we are still acting like its equal to brawl. This strategy doesn't need to get banned it shouldn't even be on the table zach (using this strategy) won one game against a player he is already better than.
I need marvel to come out this community is wearing me out.

 

[DunnoBro]

It is possible when your opponent does nothing to challenge it. You can't make statements about something that happens in a game and not consider potency anf counterplay. That makes no sense. You can't say that there's nothing that could be done and ignore when someone says what could have been done.
There are characters that can go ledge and regain invincibility at the regrab. Shiek can it was in a beefy smash video. Bayo cannot Namco and Nintendo changed the mechanics of the game to combat this and we are still acting like its equal to brawl. This strategy doesn't need to get banned it shouldn't even be on the table zach (using this strategy) won one game against a player he is already better than.
I need marvel to come out this community is wearing me out.

Okay, three things:

1: He did challenge it, and he died. He just didn't challenge it 'optimally'

2: I'm NOT saying it needs to be banned

3: This is the last time I'll explain it to you, I'm not talking about Bayo, Villager, or any character specifically. That's why counterplay is irrelevant to my discussion. What my point is; is that planking and ledge camping is a 100% proven, possible, and viable tactic in this game.

Whether or not Bayo's is unacceptable, toxic, or beatable is a completely separate discussion. I'm merely calling out the 'but guyz there's no regrab invincibility' is a flimsy argument against the mere CONCEPT of a LGL. Not even Bear is saying 100% there needs to be one, but it's clearly a possibility. And to deny that with 'jus adapt' 'lol adapt bro' type comments isn't helping anyone.

 

[|RK|]

Watching the match with Mvd and then watching the match with ally it appears Zach did it more to mess with Mvd. Because when ally challenged him he stopped.

Comparing trip sapling to bay hotboxes isn't the point. Villager was safe. The coubterplay such as cloud dtilt,. Mario slide, and other coubterplay wouldn't work on custom villager it does work on bayo. The hitboxes are large but unlike sapling they aren't lasting 20 seconds. You cansl ashield bayo hitboxes and then respond with a move that clips the ledge.

Maybe Zack was attempting to plank, maybe not, but when he naired from the ledge against Larry, he simply got shield grabbed.

EDIT: Also, let's be serious. A couple of annoying games with planking should not be enough to start this LGL discussion. Let's at least keep cracking at it first. Imo

 

[Rizen]

So anyone who says Bayonetta does not need an LGL is just objectively incorrect.

LGL=Ledge Grab Limit? IDK enough about the issue but I'm willing to entertain the notion if Bayo continues to dominate through planking. I'm on the fence for now. Counter play could be developed but it probably would still put any character who has trouble at a disadvantage every time Bayo retreats to the ledge.
When talking about ledge play I think should be mentioned. She has great planking with sun saturation, header, Uair and generally a great recovery. Her others aspects are unimpressive and I think that's why her planking is more accepted.
You can't directly compare WFT to Bayo, of course.

 

[DunnoBro]

Personally, I don't think LGL would have an overall very healthy effect.

Bayo doesn't actually grab the ledge THAT often during this. Like, more than usual of course but not much. She mixes it up with ABK onto or into the stage, double twitch twists, rising aerials, etc. To the point that finding a number that efficiently hinders this tactic without actually leaking into other aspects of play would be difficult.

As I stated, ledge camping is a viable strategy not just for bayo but other characters. Villager, WFT, Jigglypuff, etc... In some matchups, it's their only real way to play at times. And some players have taken to ledge camping when in ding dong or other specific kill confirm percents. (Though I doubt that adds too much to the number)

Secondly, there are characters like Mario, Sheik, Diddy, etc which effectively force ledge grabs. So there's another potential issue with too small a number.

Overall though, there's not much by way of rules you can do to hinder this tactic in my opinion. Bayo's not exactly an easy character to timeout, either. The best solution is developing counterplay (where possible) or hoping Nintendo steps back in.

 

[Das Koopa]

I don't feel like it's apt to kneejerk and support LGLs.

I'd get it if Zack swept through winners using the strat but he's beaten MVD and Manny doing it. Like, who cares? Neither are upper echelon players and thus aren't really a good metric for how powerful Zack's tactics potentially are. For all of the Bayo hype, Zack went down to Larry - who has demonstrated a solid amount of counterplay to a MU he used to have tons of trouble with.

 

[TDK]

Dreamhack Austin top 8:

Winners
ZeRo vs Ally
MKLeo vs VoiD

Losers
Locus vs ESAM
Konga vs Larry Lurr

That's 11 characters.

JTS 17 Plus (37 Entrants) (MD/VA)

1st: ZD
2nd: Seagull Joe
3rd: Dexter
4th: Rags

 

[DunnoBro]

Err, isn't JTS a free to enter tournament? Or did I misunderstand?

 

[TDK]

Err, isn't JTS a free to enter tournament? Or did I misunderstand?

I have no idea. I saw Seagull talk about it and looked it up, and it had enough entrants to barely count, so I put it here. I don't live anywhere near MDVA so I have no way of knowing without help.

 

[|RK|]

Err, isn't JTS a free to enter tournament? Or did I misunderstand?

Newp. Not JTS+ anyways. IDK about regular JTS's as I've never been to one. But today was JTS 17+.

 

[DunnoBro]

Newp. Not JTS+ anyways. IDK about regular JTS's as I've never been to one. But today was JTS 17+.

I was playing with Joe last night, some of them were definitely free but not this one apparently. I misunderstood.

 

[JB333]

NHS X (MI, 84 entrants)
1. Rayquaza07
2. Smasher1001
3. Meek
4. Goof

 

[BSP]

I'm curious: how many of you that post here have Pac-Man players at your locals that don't get completely thrashed by the top 5 of your PR?

 

[TDK]

Meanwhile, in Japan...

Takechun 2-1 Shuton

 

[RonNewcomb]

Bayo doesn't actually grab the ledge THAT often during this. Like, more than usual of course but not much. She mixes it up with ABK onto or into the stage, double twitch twists, rising aerials, etc. To the point that finding a number that efficiently hinders this tactic without actually leaking into other aspects of play would be difficult.

This. I recently fought a good with my who planked like her life depended on it.

Turns out, it did.

I'd really hate to see her nerfed by a LGL just because a few players and a few characters discover a bad MU with Zack/Bayo.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

LGL shouldn't even be brought up I think. I've faced a campy WFT once the ledge invincibility wore off she was easy to get above and spike even with someone as crappy in the air as zard. This discussion is kinda unnecessary I think the problem is more hatred of the character and people want her nerfed regardless of the fact that she isn't exactly aceing every tourny she's in....yeesh grow up people this community is great so stop the toxic behaviors, it makes it less fun eesh.

 

[Monete]

To be honest I'm really starting to "get" what Emblem Lord has been talking about all this time about a lot of Smash 4's players being immature.

Yeah calling inmature to someone when isnt agree with you is so mature...

Hikaru showing now why he is the best Donkey Kong in the world, he plays the neutral game and knows the % to set up Ding Dong kills

 

[TDK]

Tokyo Game Bar 3 (41 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Kirihara
2nd: Abadango
3rd: kaPMk
4th: Takera

 

[Yonder]

Tokyo Game Bar 3 (41 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Kirihara
2nd: Abadango
3rd: kaPMk
4th: Takera

Guess he's trying out his new "secondary"


And why wouldn't he use MK for Rosa?

 

[Monete]

Shulla-bra X 121 entrants http://challonge.com/ShullabraXT

1Hikaru
2 Mattun
3Hiro
4 Shuton
5 Kome
5 Ri-Ma
7 Hide
7 Beji
9 Yamanion
9 Zaki
9 Rewo
9 Gaia

Hikaru didnt drop a game

 

[verbatim]

Something to note. A lot of the influential people that have been calling for LGL (not just MVD) are Diddy Kong players, and I think that is bias on their behalf.

Diddy Kong as a character is really good at covering character's ledge getups, to the point that it's one of his bigger strengths as a top tier. Diddy's specifically not that good against people who stay on the ledge, which is why you see character's like Bayonetta or Villager or Wii Fit Trainer spending most of their time in the matchup on the ledge.

This isn't even getting into the fact that some characters with bad getup options (like DK) could flat out just lose a set to LGL because they physically COULDN'T get back on stage because Diddy or Sheik keeps throwing them off.

 

[Routa]

I will just say that "Cancerger" was not that hard to deal with. Characters with arching projectiles like Link, TL, Gunner, Brawler and couple others could pressure him from safe distance and deal damage over time which forces him to get on stage and fight there. Dunno about Bayo one, but I bet somesort of counterplay will emerge sooner or later.

 

[HoSmash4]

DK really proving himself as a top 20 character.

 

[420quickscoper]

Guess he's trying out his new "secondary"


And why wouldn't he use MK for Rosa?

Aba doesn't use MK vs Kirihara anymore, since he lost to Kirihara before using it - now he uses Mewtwo for the MU.

 

[outfoxd]

I'm curious: how many of you that post here have Pac-Man players at your locals that don't get completely thrashed by the top 5 of your PR?

We have a Pac that can upset PR members when he enters but I think only 5-15

 

[chaos11011]

The more I think about it, the more I find LGL ridiculous. I feel like a lot of characters have ways around it. Even if Diddy/Sonic have absolute 0 ways around Bayo planking, which I strongly doubt, it must be so hard having ONE horrible match up out of the 40+ ones they win. I'm willing to bet this dystopian version of Bayonetta planking is as bad as some of the actual, current match ups Diddy and Sonic have on a couple low tiers.

All I'm seeing is a strategy that forces counterpicking, that happens to counter two extremely good characters, and if that's ban worthy, then someone please invent a Needle Throw Limit to help me with the Duck Hunt VS Sheik match up too (/sarcasm).

If these were low tier characters getting screwed by Bayo, no one would care.

 

[mountain_tiger]

The more I think about it, the more I find LGL ridiculous. I feel like a lot of characters have ways around it. Even if Diddy/Sonic have absolute 0 ways around Bayo planking, which I strongly doubt, it must be so hard having ONE horrible match up out of the 40+ ones they win. I'm willing to bet this dystopian version of Bayonetta planking is as bad as some of the actual, current match ups Diddy and Sonic have on a couple low tiers.

All I'm seeing is a strategy that forces counterpicking, that happens to counter two extremely good characters, and if that's ban worthy, then someone please invent a Needle Throw Limit to help me with the Duck Hunt VS Sheik match up too (/sarcasm).

If these were low tier characters getting screwed by Bayo, no one would care.

I personally find it extremely odd that all other timeout strategies are (rightly, IMO) considered fair game because there are ways around them, even if it's not necessarily easy to combat... yet a LGL is even being considered.

Maybe I'm looking back too much and thinking of how this isn't anywhere close to being half as bad as planking in Brawl... but I'm genuinely a bit baffled.

 

[chaos11011]

I personally find it extremely odd that all other timeout strategies are (rightly, IMO) considered fair game because there are ways around them, even if it's not necessarily easy to combat... yet a LGL is even being considered.

Maybe I'm looking back too much and thinking of how this isn't anywhere close to being half as bad as planking in Brawl... but I'm genuinely a bit baffled.

The inconsistency of it all baffles me.

On one hand, Bayonetta can plank against Diddy and people petition for a limit. On the other hand, no one says a thing when Little Mac is platform camped? Where's the Platform Stand Limit? And funny enough, why didn't Duck Hunt get a tree limit instead of being outright banned? There's no real methodology to how we deal with these things.

 

[Rizen]

I agree with DunnoBro, LGL won't help and there aren't any rules for this situation.

The problem with Bayo in particular planking isn't that it can't be beaten or she can do it in one place for the whole game. It's that she can force an advantaged state and waste 10-20 seconds in a 6 minute game simply by going to the ledge. IDK what the developers were thinking by making bullet arts not reflectable. You're probably going to take chip damage and possibly give bayo an opening by approaching her. Then she can do it again and again.
This is how you win at fighting games: abuse the opponent like a rented tuxedo.

 

[|RK|]

I agree with DunnoBro, LGL won't help and there aren't any rules for this situation.

The problem with Bayo in particular planking isn't that it can't be beaten or she can do it in one place for the whole game. It's that she can force an advantaged state and waste 10-20 seconds in a 6 minute game simply by going to the ledge. IDK what the developers were thinking by making bullet arts not reflectable. You're probably going to take chip damage and possibly give bayo an opening by approaching her. Then she can do it again and again.
This is how you win at fighting games: abuse the opponent like a rented tuxedo.

Tbh, I'm struggling to find non-Sonic/Diddy characters that *can't* deal with this. Fox can shield grab Nair, as Larry showed us & has lasers. Rosalina will probably use star bits. Bowser Jr. has Mechakoopa, Zelda... she has a use for Din's Fire, my god. My characters - Lucario has Aura Sphere, and Kirby can just press B (if he's already copied Bullet Climax)...

And I'm sure other people will figure out thing their characters can do as well. I kinda agree with people above - Sonic & Diddy players complaining about oppressive strategies?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Ally was even doing well against it with Mario, he tried challenging it once with Dash Attack and when it failed he held back made sure he took lead and forced Bayonetta off the ledge, I really can't feel sympathy if two top five characters can't deal with something when they oppress the rest of the cast normally. I know Ness can just use PK Fire or Thunder and stage spike her for free if she keeps trying this against him.

 

[Rizen]

Tbh, I'm struggling to find non-Sonic/Diddy characters that *can't* deal with this. Fox can shield grab Nair, as Larry showed us & has lasers. Rosalina will probably use star bits. Bowser Jr. has Mechakoopa, Zelda... she has a use for Din's Fire, my god. My characters - Lucario has Aura Sphere, and Kirby can just press B (if he's already copied Bullet Climax)...

And I'm sure other people will figure out thing their characters can do as well. I kinda agree with people above - Sonic & Diddy players complaining about oppressive strategies?

You're missing the point of my post. It's not that any character can't deal with Bayo's planking; it's that she gets a free advantageous position and stalls every time she goes to the ledge unless your character has a great projectile. I'm not saying the rules need to be changed but I do think people are downplaying this tactic. Bayo shouldn't keep bobbing up when it's not safe. She shouldn't repeat the same few moves. Bayo has a cornucopia of options to go with when planking is compromised.

Zelda's better off going with phantom or ledge canceling upB. Kurogane didn't even bother to put the frame data for Din's, lol.

 

[Illusion.]

has been doing well as of late, but I'm still skeptical about considering him a high tier character for now. His MUs against are awful.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

has been doing well as of late, but I'm still skeptical about considering him a high tier character for now. His MUs against are awful.

Isn't Fox more of a bad but volatile MU?

 

[Diamond Octobot]

DK can edgeguard with NAir / DTilt, but getting in on Fox when he starts his vortex is kinda hard. For some reason, the last DK vs Fox match I saw had litterally no DTilt edgeguard...