Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Nemesis561]

Wario will never be more than a mid tier without any patches. Warios are blessed with having two PHENOMENAL players as their top reps, Reflex and Glutonny, but don't let their personal skill confuse you. Besides these two there are a plethora of great Warios out there honestly, but the current meta isn't kind to Wario at all. Players such as Capt W, Snorley, Waymas, Austin, Lord Frieza, Iota, Harlonga, C4, BGG, and Mundo are all great Warios in their own right who have gotten good wins. A few weeks ago, Waymas took mk Leo to g5 and almost beat his Cloud (unfortunately missing some key punishes hurt him). Snorley has been doing great recently, beating ESAM and 8Bitman. C4 and Capt W have nearly beaten Ally, all of these Warios are amazing players, but unfortunately Wario just isn't that viable in the current meta and as such you won't see him commonly. Much of his current rep were Brawl Warios (Reflex, Glutonny, Waymas, Austin, and Iota I know for sure off the top of my head) and are just dedicated Warios. None of them will tell you Wario is more than a mid tier, and some will even say he's a low tier.

Wario has a plethora of moves (Chomp, Fair, Nair, Bair, Dair are the common ones that all work at different % ranges, but he also has some DI mixups that let fthrow or dthrow setup as well) that put you into tumble and setup for jablocks off late fair and late dash attack. He has footstool combos too, mainly setup off nair or falling uair which can lead to huge punishes for sure. Waft is broken as **** and gives Wario a huge X factor of course, but he still needs to take a stock without it most of the time (or use half waft twice which most Warios prefer). His maneuverability, busted specials, and recovery are his main selling points. Chomp is a godsend in neutral, and having it allows him to threaten shields in a unique way.

However, that just isn't enough in this meta. Wario's 3 worst MUs are generally thought to be Sonic, Bayonetta, and Cloud. There is a bit of dissent on Bayo being ranked with the other two, but at the very least Reflex agrees with me that those are his personal 3 worst as well. Besides those 3 abysmal MUs, he also has a few other 60:40 MUs such as ZSS, M2, ROB, Diddy, Fox, and Marcina. With the exceptions of ROB and ZSS, those are some of the most common tournament used characters . A Wario is guaranteed to run into multiple of these every (relavant) tournament. His only good MUs against solid chars are vs Lucario, Luigi, Megaman, Rosalina, Bowser, and Olimar. As such, he doesn't have much utility as a secondary which is why you mainly only see Wario mains.

Funny enough, Glutonny prefers two stock to three stock and has been advocating for France to switch over to 2 stock. Most Warios prefer 2 stock to 3, although as with any subject there will always be a bit of dissent. I'm not saying Wario is hopeless, but with his 3 worst MUs being top 6 characters, and being very common most levels of play, it's unlikely that we'll ever see Wario do much more than what we current see. You'll have what looks like breakout performances when Glutonny and Reflex travel and take names, but they can't travel often for various reasons and their wins are generally a byproduct of their personal skill levels rather than Warios viability.

tldr; Wario sux, play Bayonetta.

Great response, and I agree with pretty much all of it. I've always thought Wario is a pretty good character but in terms of making long bracket runs, it's tough because he is an inconsistent character by nature. That's why I'm so impressed by the high level warios that consistently place so well

 

[Rizen]

Some notable oddities to me from that:

being hard but being easy even though they both have at least 2 downward angled projectiles. Guessing Link's harder punishes are the reason

I don't see why the gap is that big but why Link does better is he has much better disjointed reach than TL. Link can Ftilt 2 frame ledge grabs and the ending part of the swing hits well below the ledge. Link's bombs can be planted so Link can Z drop or soft throw one to cover rolls while doing his other anti-planking tactics or simply soft throw a bomb to the ledge so the next attack of Bayo's will get blown up and react with Fair or smash the ledge roll.

Link has really good ledge return coverage if he has time to setup. You do not want to tarry* on the ledge vs him.



*I've been playing Dark Souls 3/inside joke

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Seems like Zack has no idea about Palu. Even a simple dashattack can challenge his planking.

Also Ike has a big Sword and his fair hurts like hell.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I don't see why the gap is that big but why Link does better is he has much better disjointed reach than TL. Link can Ftilt 2 frame ledge grabs and the ending part of the swing hits well below the ledge. Link's bombs can be planted so Link can Z drop or soft throw one to cover rolls while doing his other anti-planking tactics or simply soft throw a bomb to the ledge so the next attack of Bayo's will get blown up and react with Fair or smash the ledge roll.

Link has really good ledge return coverage if he has time to setup. You do not want to tarry* on the ledge vs him.



*I've been playing Dark Souls 3/inside joke

Who is harder to master between the two, Link or Tink, to a certain extent I would think it's Link, but what would you say? I play Tink, but I don't easily see how you can play one, Switch to the other and do well, their differences are significant.

 

[The-Technique]

*sees Robin in high tier on Zack's list*

Goodness, would you look at the time...

 

[ShadowGuy1]

*sees Robin in high tier on Zack's list*

Goodness, would you look at the time...

That was not a tier list. That was a "when to plank with bayo" list.

 

[T4ylor]

Seems like Zack has no idea about Palu. Even a simple dashattack can challenge his planking.

Also Ike has a big Sword and his fair hurts like hell.

But does their reward of landing a dash attack or forward air, outside of kill %, contest Bayonetta's reward of landing a Witch Twist on them?

 

[Rizen]

Who is harder to master between the two, Link or Tink, to a certain extent I would think it's Link, but what would you say? I play Tink, but I don't easily see how you can play one, Switch to the other and do well, their differences are significant.

I could be biased but IMO Link is. If you're serious about playing him you need to learn bombslides and be good at footsies. Plus TL is a better character so by that alone you'll have an easier time winning.

I could never play TL because his physics mess with my head. In general floaties are not my style. But I've know a few Link players who use them both so it's possible.

 

[Floor]

I don't think Captain Zack's planking will last. The counterplay to it has yet to evolve and bulletarts are a pretty dumb idea against Marth Lucina Ike Roy, and whoever else has stun jacket. That's just giving these characters (minus Ike?) A free KO confirm at virtually any percent.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Who is harder to master between the two, Link or Tink, to a certain extent I would think it's Link, but what would you say? I play Tink, but I don't easily see how you can play one, Switch to the other and do well, their differences are significant.

IMO Link has more difficult tech and little details to learn (check out Link's Meta thread and AT thread for the gritty details), but Tink can get some of the same results with less effort. Regardless, you still have to know your character really well with either one.

 

[DunnoBro]

Is Zacks planking chart basing some of the worth of the strategy on if she'd actually need to? He classea DH and WFT as hard and i wonder if it's because the Bayo should just be slapping them around normally.

Not sure, but the tactic certainly isn't very effective vs them regardless.

WFT has Sun Salutation if Bayo every peaks her head up, and header ball hits ledge safely from a distance.

Duck hunt has can for hang, frisbee for rising options, and gunmen for extra safe coverage (protects from ABK) Not to mention Fsmash which is just plain unavoidable if you're regrabbing (Well, 1/3rd of the time... Why is the angle random Sakurai?)

Edit: Also if Bayo hits the can with DH on the ledge and he shields it, it will automatically stage spike
------------------

Also anyone who thinks this will go away is kidding themselves. This will last, and has always lasted. A lot of people seem to misunderstand, this is NOT a timeout tactic. This is OPTIMAL Bayo.

Confirms by the ledge are more potent, safer, and lets her opt out of the neutral game (Wasn't this the issue with dABK pre-patch?)

Child does this, Chag does this, Lima does this, Salem does this. Every Bayo worth their salt (and others =p) uses this. Timeouts are simply what happens when people ALREADY KNOW their options. Which aren't good. Not because they DON'T know.

Watch ANY decent level Bayo set, and watch what happens on the ledge. Even if the Bayo themselves aren't aware of it, you'll notice how much reward she gets on the ledge vs how little the opponent gets.

This effectively gives her the neutral game she's longed after. Allowing her to have the best advantage state, disadvantage state, and now a top tier neutral. (in most matchups anyway)

 

[Illuminose]

I am slow; somebody explain the Fox Vortex to me please?

combo up tilts into each other, sometimes using pp utilt or dash attack to extend, then when the percent is right use sh autocancel uair to frame trap an air dodge (utilt or dash attack the air dodge on reaction). it generally ends with getting uair->uair and then you're out of the percent where it works, just try to trap the landing a different way.

 

[Floor]

Also anyone who thinks this will go away is kidding themselves. This will last, and has always lasted. A lot of people seem to misunderstand, this is NOT a timeout tactic. This is OPTIMAL Bayo.

Hard to know for sure; we only saw one or two people go up against this strategy... okay, so MVD couldn't get passed it... that doesn't say anything about Clouds Marcinas Fox Mario Sonic Pika or really anything. Maybe ZeRo can get passed it and show everyone how it's done. I'm not going to jump the gun and call this permanently-optimal Bayo

 

[OverTime]

I'm sure the more experienced players on the thread realized it, but the second set between ZeRo and Ally at Dreamhack (primarily games 1-3) was a great example of ZeRo's conditioning in neutral.

I find that ZeRo loses games in advantage or returning from disadvantage rather than in neutral in general. But he was definitely setting Ally up for the long game with a more Aerial focused Lucina early on. Setting Ally up for grabs and a shield breaker later on in the set.

 

[ARISTOS]

Zack tried to show me something funny
But it was bayo planking
the lvl 3 cpu ended up beating it first try
That was actually hilarious

— Void (@gsmVoiD) April 30, 2017

While I do believe Bayo planking seems to be troubling at a glance, this is pretty ****ing hilarious

 

[DunnoBro]

Hard to know for sure; we only saw one or two people go up against this strategy... okay, so MVD couldn't get passed it... that doesn't say anything about Clouds Marcinas Fox Mario Sonic Pika or really anything. Maybe ZeRo can get passed it and show everyone how it's done. I'm not going to jump the gun and call this permanently-optimal Bayo

No. Plenty of people have gone up against Bayo Ledge camping before. Just none have been timed out on stream. Zack isn't the only one to utilize this strategy at all.

This really isn't anything new, it's just being optimized and perfected.

 

[Krysco]

Assuming there's even a way, what would be the best way of removing this Bayo planking thing? Pretty much everyone has already said how a LGL wouldn't do much, a patch that buffs a number (note: not all) of characters that can't handle it easily isn't likely and the most likely answer would be another patch to nerf Bayo but what would even be nerfed? It doesn't seem like nerfing any one thing would fix this except maybe making Bayo's ledge options laggier? Seems to be effective due to a combination of Bayo's options like a long lasting, far reaching nair, ABK, Witch Twist and Witch Time.

 

[ぱみゅ]

There's only two options that really work against Bayonetta's planking:
a) Develop counterplay: Lab the hell out of your character's options as well as Bayonetta's. ZeRo was able to beat Zack's planking because he counted her jumps and was ready to punish her next option.
b) Ban her outright: LGL won't solve it because she doesn't grab the ledge that often when planking (funfact, she does grab it more when edgeguarding and being aggressive). The only regulation that would cause an actual effect is a straight ban on the character.

 

[DunnoBro]

Even a Bayo-specific LGL could be an issue, as Bayo truly does grab the ledge more often while playing honestly and aggressively. (Though probably still more acceptable than a straight ban)

Overall, it's a messy issue and would likely lend to the decay of the meta if the current top players weren't already cemented into their legacy characters.

 

[Floor]

I'm not convinced this is a super serious life-long problem we are dealing with. I have yet to see counter play evolve. If Captain Zack and Salem started using planking to win major after major and consistently two stocked ZeRo over the course of a full year, I'd accept that we need some sort of ban or ruling... but as it stands, this is looking like a Sonic using spin dash and shield to time someone out... a frustrating thing but rich with counter-play and not ban-worthy

 

[Seagull Joe]

Dreamhack Austin top 8:

Winners
ZeRo vs Ally
MKLeo vs VoiD

Losers
Locus vs ESAM
Konga vs Larry Lurr

That's 11 characters.

JTS 17 Plus (37 Entrants) (MD/VA)

1st: ZD
2nd: Seagull Joe
3rd: Dexter
4th: Rags

I went as well.

 

[ARISTOS]

I'm not convinced this is a super serious life-long problem we are dealing with. I have yet to see counter play evolve. If Captain Zack and Salem started using planking to win major after major and consistently two stocked ZeRo over the course of a full year, I'd accept that we need some sort of ban or ruling... but as it stands, this is looking like a Sonic using spin dash and shield to time someone out... a frustrating thing but rich with counter-play and not ban-worthy

I understand your point, but things can be unhealthy and unwanted without also winning everything (case in point: community experience with customs).

I agree that more time should be taken to figure it out

 

[ぱみゅ]

To be honest, it looks like at this point an important part of the community is pretty much looking for an excuse to ban Bayonetta, and this is the perfect chance for them.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'm not seeing anyone advocating for another Bayo Ban. I know I'm not, I don't even want a LGL.

 

[jet56]

https://smash.gg/tournament/gambit-april/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/132019

AZ tournament that happened on saturday. didn't see it in the weekend results post.

Gambit: April (54 entrants)

1st - Saiki
2nd - Felix
3rd - TG|DK Ollie
4th - Googs

@Das Koopa

regarding the subject of bayo planking, the community really needs to pump their breaks on LGL rules or banning. Plenty of characters can deal with it, and the planking isn't even a viable strategy against a good portion of the cast.

On the other hand, i can understand the frustration if you start a set off against a bayo and your character happens to be easily susceptible to it. Basically, you just have to hold an L for that game because you lost at the character select screen. Bayo planking does invalidate characters if they can't effectively deal with it, and i would totally get the frustration from that.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/859158116448976896

Komorikiri confirmed for 2GGC: Greninja saga.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

To be honest, it looks like at this point an important part of the community is pretty much looking for an excuse to ban Bayonetta, and this is the perfect chance for them.

Lets ban a character that has still yet to win anything significant and doesnt really seem like the #1 character in the game

Zack didnt even get into the top 8 at dreamhack even implemeting said planking. Its lioks far from unbeatable

 

[Krysco]

I do find it odd how quick a large number of people wanted Bayo banned upon her launch with at least Spain going as far as to ban her till she was nerfed and with the first sign of her metagame becoming better, the ban wagon comes right back. Compared to Brawl Meta Knight who was far more broken and I'm sure his meta evolved over time too. Brawl eventually banned MK for a very short time but then he came back anyways. Maybe it's because Brawl was altogether a more broken game so having a character as op as MK didn't seem as bad when the next best things running around were the likes of ICies, Olimar, Diddy, Marth, Falco and Snake. Compared to Sm4sh where the top tiers kept getting nerfed and had to learn new ways to work around them.

It's often said how Sm4sh is mostly well balanced, you can pull out your mid and low tiers and actually compete against the top tiers. Sure, you're still at a disadvantage but it's nowhere near as hopeless as Brawl mid tiers and lower vs top tiers and possibly the same for Melee. So the first sign of a strategy that a portion of the cast can't do anything against upsets the balance of the meta or something? Really doesn't help that it's on Bayo of all characters. Meanwhile hoo hah Diddy and long range, needle camping Sheik weren't being fought to be banned last I recall.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Lets ban a character that has still yet to win anything significant

KTAR Saga?

 

[DunnoBro]

No one of any level of relevance is saying to ban Bayo again.

 

[verbatim]

I'm not seeing anyone advocating for another Bayo Ban. I know I'm not, I don't even want a LGL.

I take it this means you want a nerf then?


Food for thought: The top tier that most players associate with campy play, Sonic, is often shoehorned into the archetype due to his lack of burst options. He has a bottom 3 dash grab, a near useless dash attack, and a poor foxtrot (iirc). Because he has bad approach options Sonic has to rely on a slower more reactive playstyle. Even when people call the best Sonic players "offensive", they really aren't. KEN in particular is really good at playing the same bait and punish game that everyone else does as phyically close to the opponent as possible, while still being just outside of the engagement range.

Similar shtick with Bayonetta. Diddy Kong's neutral invalidating your character, go abuse his weakness to deal with ledge camping. This is a tactic that any character (that can do this) that struggles against Diddy Kong should use.

This is kind of similar to how characters that get true combo laddered by Meta Knight (like Rosalina) should camp BY the ledge, so that by DI'ing away from stage the Meta Knight must effectively SD in order to go far out enough to get hte kill.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Similar shtick with Bayonetta. Diddy Kong's neutral invalidating your character, go abuse his weakness to deal with ledge camping. This is a tactic that any character (that can do this) that struggles against Diddy Kong should use.

Or abuse his ability to be combo'd, especially with his mediocre air mobility.

 

[Rizen]

To be honest, it looks like at this point an important part of the community is pretty much looking for an excuse to ban Bayonetta, and this is the perfect chance for them.

Who are you talking about? /I don't want Bayo banned, just asking.

 

[DunnoBro]

I take it this means you want a nerf then?

Maybe? All I'm advocating for is a discussion, to properly understand it. How strongly people here are opposing the very NOTION that this MIGHT be an issue this early on, is silly. Just like those demanding action this early on are equally silly.

Hence why PGR Bear isn't taking any action, all he said is that they're having a discussion. Which is all that is warranted at this point, but some people here don't want to accept even that.

Or abuse his ability to be combo'd, especially with his mediocre air mobility.

Disjoints, Divekicks, Small frame, and Momentum shifts don't leave him particularly comboable. (Not enough to be notable anyway)

 

[verbatim]

Double food for thought: the last thing to be "discussed" behind closed doors was Lylat.

 

[Nu~]

He has a bottom 3 dash grab, .

Where do people find this data? I can definitely feel how bad his dash grab is when I use him, but I certainly didn't know it was bottom 3.

 

[FeelMeUp]

normal Dthrow>Uair still seems to 50/50 a decent portion of characters. I'll update you guys when all the %s are worked out. Note that I'm not talking about soft Dthrow.

 

[ARISTOS]

normal Dthrow>Uair still seems to 50/50 a decent portion of characters. I'll update you guys when all the %s are worked out. Note that I'm not talking about soft Dthrow.

What is a Soft Dthrow? Excuse my ignorance

 

[FeelMeUp]

What is a Soft Dthrow? Excuse my ignorance

 

[verbatim]

Where do people find this data? I can definitely feel how bad his dash grab is when I use him, but I certainly didn't know it was bottom 3.

He's one of three characters that have such a slow dash grab that shieldgrabbing out of a run is faster. The other two are Ganondorf and Fox.


There is no formal dash grab tier list. There's a standing grab distance tier list here that explains why it's hard to do the math for dash grabs.