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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Monete

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I've heard most Zard mains say Serge is the best Charizard around.
Also, a fair amount of Zard mains seem to think Sharpy's overrated, sometimes considering some Zards well above him, the other 2 most common answer being Tosshi from Japan ( who has a win over Ranai ) and Fire from France ( who has been doing increasingly good in Europe lately )
Chuck Nasty is also amazing
 

Nathan Richardson

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From what I'm hearing a lot of good zards are unable to travel. Is there some sort of travel curse among zard mains? (I kid I kid but you have to admit this isn't too far of a stretch.)
 

DunnoBro

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Not directly related to the Bayo Planking, but it rounds over to a smash theory I've been working on.

Some characters have a LOT of options on the ledge. Bayo, M2, ZSS, etc. Not to mention some retain the option to recover high rather safely like Yoshi, Pikachu, etc. In addition to being essentially ungimpable, they generate MASSIVE advantage from you guessing the wrong ledge options.

Others have fine ledge options like Villager, WFT, ROB, etc. But they also have potent landing options which makes keeping them onstage not so preferable.

So I'm thinking Uthrows as opposed to just throwing them offstage should be far more effective at generating safe advantage.

Think about it. Is Bayo in a worse position after diddy's uthrow > uair or when she's fthrown offstage? As we've seen in MVD and Manny vs Zack, you can't really get much off her on the ledge.

Her landing aerials aren't actually that good from above people, and she has to use her own jumps/specials to go offstage for the safety of that ledge. Similar goes for m2, zss, etc.

Essentially the theory summarized is just the question: "Do I want to be beneath these characters or do I want them offstage?"

For a good comparison, ever been uthrow > uaired by diddy only to get landing trapped? Or maybe sheik's old dthrow > uair and live only to get grabbed again?
 
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Megamang

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That kind of reminds me of my basic idea around certain MUs.

When browsing character attributes and frame data, I divided characters into sets vs Megaman. Those slower and faster in the air... Since Mega has *amazing* air acceleration, he is more maneuverable than pretty much anyone. So it kinda dawned on me, in theory, those with worse top air speed should really never be able to get out of uair juggle situations. Then, you add the fact Mega has a really high fall speed... Following with uairs, dropping down really fast to return to the ground, gets you a nice situation where you can do considerable damage and maintain advantage, while risking essentially nothing, at all, even a loss of stage position won't happen. You also have the trap M2k mentioned aeons ago in this thread, where you are falling below them and they essentially must guess when you will jump + bair since it is unreactable.


And Mega threatens both of these at once, when they are pulling towards the stage above you. FF AD to beat a non-FF'd uair can eat a nair stage spike. I won't go into all of it, but there are tons of answers and tons of counters to those answers and blah blah blah its a fighting game situation.


But, Mario.. can go low, then UpB, and it beats out dair outright. I've never had dair beat that move, I don't think it can happen outside of a 2-frame. And this usually happened when I b-threw him offstage, AND it stales my last resort kill move.

So, after looking at my throw damage... I started U-throwing with Megs. And my results got much better. Also, your traps are more vortex-y because you can grab and toss upwards from anywhere, as opposed to them getting past you at the ledge and either getting away for free or just taking a nair or something and resetting, with you in the corner!


---

This brings me to my next thing, that I meant to discuss in the previous post. Going to the ledge is an actual decent option for many characters. Some, like DK, have such poor landing options that going to the ledge and trying there takes their odds from 0 to terrible. Some characters have absolutely terrifying options from the ledge; sheik's trumps are so much scarier at high percentages because she can respond to a ledgeroll with a ledgedrop BF, to reset the situation cross stage or at least add a good 11%. Some characters have mediocre recoveries and end up going to the ledge from a simple b-throw. Some are way safer from a ledge snap vs landing on the ground, etc etc etc.


So... Bayonetta is one of those with great off-ledge options. She also has the ability to quickly get to the ledge. Her burst movement to the ledge actually opens up some interesting combo situations, getting special'd when she ledgesnaps puts you in a horrific position; I haven't looked at the frame data but it sure looks like it can even true combo into bair.

Oh, and going to the ledge completely ignores the negatives she gets from repeated special usage. She already has great properties for the ledge retreat.

And now bayos are realizing her options are insane there. That she gets greater reward than in most spots, and she can limit her risk to a great deal. I don't need to tell anyone here that skewing her risk reward like that is very powerful.


TLDR main point: It isn't really about a LGL. Or the blatant way CZ was doing it. She is hittable for many characters. But for most of those characters, she is in a pretty good spot vs the rest of the cast that dislikes the corner. You know when you go to the ledge to reset disadvantage? Well that is going to be every bayo you play in the near future. Her disadvantage is getting better even more; above it is mentioned that she is worse being juggled but these ledge tactics say that clearly her best option is a double ABK to the ledge. And you'll notice that you just don't convert off wins in the neutral; when she gets a small chance shes boosting towards the ledge.

I'd guess the only real way to mitigate this is 1) SDI so her advantage isn't THAT much better than yours 2) abuse her on the ground/near ground, with Bayo specific things. Her balancing factors are terrible dodge data, combo food data, and extreme lightness. My success vs Bayo went way up when I stopped getting frustrated with her quick kills, and began implementing mine.

(But FFS, play smart still. She does have some awkward MeleeMarth situations where she just has done too much damage to efficiently set up a kill.)


OH ya, just remembered. She can also passively damage you while planking. Ooof.

Also, Bullet Climax looks absolutely infuriating vs certain characters. 8BitMan vs Child made me... idk.
 

Das Koopa

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dabuz honestly goes ham

He points out several occasions where MVD makes mistakes, points out that MVD continuously approaches planking Bayo with banana for no discernible reason, points out that MVD peanut from the stage actually works on multiple occasions, etc. He says it's not even close to degenerative play because counterplay visibly exists in the set, and it's more MVD making a ton of errors.

then he literally shows the infamous DKwill WHOBO set from Brawl as a real example of degenerative gameplay

aforementioned set:


even then, Dabuz points out that Rich made a huge error that cost him the game by ledgedropping when he had Will dead to rights on a stock with 2 minutes left that would've just put a 6% difference between the two

I get the fear and want of preventing this game from becoming Brawl but this is a specific set of matchups where counterplay exists.

So idk, it's obviously worth discussing but talking about implementing lgls is silly. They make Diddy & Sheik better characters because of how often they force players onto the ledge and it feels like a preemptive solution to a problem that has counterplay.

I'm appreciative that there's still meta development among top tiers.

So, yeah, I was gonna post this since Florida seems to be the problem here...



..but I look on Manny's twitter and nary find a comment of him advocating LGLs, just MVD and Blank, so I think the issue with the metagame is that Captain Zack hard counters Florida and reaction tech chase is different from player to player with some opting for the Salt read.

Just feels like people have been shooting for a reason to nerf Bayonetta since release either by praying for dev nerfs (which I think were justified, all things considered) or by changing the game rules by something like LGLs or even hard bans on Bayo. Portions of Spain banned Bayo over one set, which always struck me as the prime example of how the nerf mindset often works: One thing happens, people freak out.

Duck Hunt's ban took nearly 2 years and a lot of coercion and presentation of evidence that it caused constantly campy games and even that remains a controversial decision. This is peanuts compared to Duck Hunt, since you can at least point to a ton of examples of Duck Hunt causing insanely slow gameplay that threatened the game's stability as a spectator eSport. For Bayo planking, it's limited to a number of matchups where counterplay evidently exists. Wouldn't be the first boring matchup to watch.
 

Radical Larry

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Das Koopa Das Koopa

I have some reasonable arguments against utilization of an LGL, actually, and even if people make decent points here and there, there may not be any way we can use this.

If rulesets do use any type of "Ledge Grab Limit" rule because Bayonetta's planking becomes mainstream and hard-to-counter, be the rule based on amount of grabs only, amount of grabs + timeout, amount of time or just utilize this on Bayonetta only, you will have some extreme problems for each individual circumstance. Compared to the other three Smash games, the ledge mechanics are much different. While planking was seen as more powerful in Brawl than Smash 4 due to general character safety due to always retaining invincibility on ledge and the lack of ledge trumps, what makes the rule unusable in this game is the fact that ledge grabs are just as, or even have become more frequent without the utilization of planking because of the addition of ledge trumps and 2-frame punishes, as well as using ledges to edge-guard opponents very efficiently.

What this has to do with the limit rule is that you cannot implement too little amounts of grabs, around 20 to 30, because characters frequent the ledges a lot nor can you put it too high, as it will make the rule negligible in that instance. You also cannot do it around the amount of time because it's impossible to record it due to no in-game statistic and no real efficient way to record it outside of the match, and also because since there's absolutely no guarantee that a setup will have recording software, so, oops! And making it amount of grabs + timeout wouldn't fix the problem either just as long as one player manages to KO the other's two stocks; this is what Brawl uses and in events of things like these in Smash 4, you can see that it's pointless to add in this. And don't get me started on if you just applied any of this on Bayonetta only. You really don't want the backlash from Bayonetta players saying that it's unfair because only Bayonetta has this applied and no one else isn't put to the same standard.

While you could think of any arguments for the LGL, there are things that would prove to make the rule be unusable in this game in comparison to Brawl, and the most obvious factor is the ledge mechanic changes and the frequency of edge-guarding/damage racking with use of the ledges, even if you minimize the amount grabbed on stage.

Any disagreements?
 
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Heracr055

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Has there been enough evidence yet of Bayo's planking technique to be 'OP'? I think it's only been a couple of weeks since the tech was 'discovered', so shouldn't we give this issue time so that a better case can be established? As much as I have disdain for Bayo, I think that some in the community may be crying wolf way too early. Give the meta time to develop counterplay, and if it can't, then the case for banning will be stronger. (This all applies to LGL as well)
 
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PURGE THEM LIKE THE

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Some characters have a LOT of options on the ledge. Bayo, M2, ZSS, etc. Not to mention some retain the option to recover high rather safely like Yoshi, Pikachu, etc. In addition to being essentially ungimpable, they generate MASSIVE advantage from you guessing the wrong ledge options.
If you don't mind, what options does Mewtwo have for getting off the ledge that give him advantage significantly better than other characters?
 

Radical Larry

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Has there been enough evidence yet of Bayo's planking technique to be 'OP'? I think it's only been a couple of weeks since the tech was 'discovered', so shouldn't we give this issue time so that a better case can be established? As much as I have disdain for Bayo, I think that some in the community may be crying wolf way too early. Give the meta time to develop counterplay, and if it can't, then the case for banning will be stronger.
Honestly, I don't see Bayonetta's planking as being a viable method against opponents.

The ledge mechanics and a lot of different characters (mainly disjoint ones) can already prove that this method can be countered easily and efficiently. This tech is one of those "surprise" gimmicks that's never going to be used again because almost anyone can counter it.
 

Radical Larry

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Sorry but this joke went right over my head (mainly because zards are more orange than red). Explain please?
Charmeleon.

(And just so I don't get a warning or infraction, I'll just say that besides, it's not just Zards that can't go places. A lot of people can't either to represent their character because they're likely in lower income households, leading to less money available as a result. Sometimes players can get here and there in tournaments, but obviously it's just money and life that are big issues. I mean, what do you expect?)
 
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DunnoBro

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If you don't mind, what options does Mewtwo have for getting off the ledge that give him advantage significantly better than other characters?
It's multiple things:

1: He retains the ability to go high very safely due to his mobility, airdodge, and teleport.

2: Being in front of mewtwo SUCKS. He has fair, shadowball, confusion, nair, he can cover EVERY option if you're too close.

3: Uair/Bair hit through the stage. He can challenge ledge on shield without even using his jump, or fade WAYY over shield with rising fair to still be hella safe.

Not to mention, ledge jump allows him 2 airdodges and guessing either wrong results in a medium punish with fair/confusion. His ability to play from the corner after a standard is immense. It's likely nothing worth going to the ledge yourself like Bayo, but he doesn't HAVE to return to neutral.
 

Mr. Johan

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Chuck Nasty is also amazing
Doesn't Chuck Nasty use mostly Bowser?
No, he is a Charizard main who now plays also MetaKnight and Bowser.

I dont know how serious is about his secondaries tho
Chuck's always had a Meta Knight, and he started using Bowser in December.

He goes Charizard for sets he /really/ wants to win and thinks he can. Grand Finals sets vs. Muse when he's using Tink, sets with OoS players (he's taken two sets off MJG), but otherwise it's practice season for Bowser and Meta Knight.
 

NINTENDO Galaxy

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No Man's Land (Oklaholma) (122 Entrants)

1st: Shoyo James :4luigi: :4diddy:
2nd: MJG :4tlink: :4villager:
3rd: Deezus :4ryu:
4th: Chuck Nasty :4charizard: :4metaknight: :4bowser:
5th: Very Freezer :4luigi:
5th: Holms :4feroy:
7th: Muse :4tlink:
7th: Cheezeballer :4dk:

Chuck Nasty is the best american Zard, that much is clear. I'd still say Sharpy's better overall, but that remains to be seen until Sharpy gets to the US.

Hirosuma: Revolution (Japan) (101 Entrants)

1st: Mr. R :4sheik: :4cloud2:
2nd: Nietono :4sheik:
3rd: Ron :4mario:
4th: Mattsun :4cloud2:
5th: 9B :4bayonetta2:
5th: Shogun :4fox:
7th: Choco :4zss:
7th: HIDE :4sonic:

Notably, Ron took a set from Mr. R, though Mr. R four-stocked him in the runback.
Cheeseballer has a lucas too.
 

ぱみゅ

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Sorry but this joke went right over my head (mainly because zards are more orange than red). Explain please?
In Pokémon Red and Blue/Green, Charizard was unable to learn Fly.


Now, I had this question hovering my mind for a while now: do you guys have any idea why Sonic, overall, dropped in results?
I have only thought of a combination of KEN not attending many tournaments, Wonf/Komo preferring the DLCs and the rest of Sonics not being as strong.
:196:
 

my_T

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In Pokémon Red and Blue/Green, Charizard was unable to learn Fly.


Now, I had this question hovering my mind for a while now: do you guys have any idea why Sonic, overall, dropped in results?
I have only thought of a combination of KEN not attending many tournaments, Wonf/Komo preferring the DLCs and the rest of Sonics not being as strong.
:196:
You basically answered your own question
 

Nathan Richardson

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Now, I had this question hovering my mind for a while now: do you guys have any idea why Sonic, overall, dropped in results?
I have only thought of a combination of KEN not attending many tournaments, Wonf/Komo preferring the DLCs and the rest of Sonics not being as strong.
The answer to your question is D. All of The Above.
 

Radical Larry

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In Pokémon Red and Blue/Green, Charizard was unable to learn Fly.


Now, I had this question hovering my mind for a while now: do you guys have any idea why Sonic, overall, dropped in results?
I have only thought of a combination of KEN not attending many tournaments, Wonf/Komo preferring the DLCs and the rest of Sonics not being as strong.
:196:
Oh that's right. Even I apparently didn't get the joke.

But yeah, you answered your own question on the latter half. But it could also have something to do with Sonic himself; do you think it's because he's just boring to watch/play?
 

YerTheBestAROUND

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I could be biased but IMO Link is [harder to master]. If you're serious about playing him you need to learn bombslides and be good at footsies. Plus TL is a better character so by that alone you'll have an easier time winning.

I could never play TL because his physics mess with my head. In general floaties are not my style. But I've know a few Link players who use them both so it's possible.
I believe you're confusing mastery with success. Is Toon Link easier to succeed with? Yeah, probably. He's a better character. But winning isn't mastering a character.

Example: Sheik. Sheik is a good character when you understand how to use her tools effectively. She's a much worse character when in the hands of a player who doesn't understand her. You have to know a lot about Sheik and the game in general to do well with her.
 

Megamang

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Re: Sonic

The slight rise of Megaman surely didn't help him, but the MU is not a roadblock so much as slightly difficult. And he isn't rising back with the relative dip of Mega. Any other tough MU's have a rise recently?

All his good players I can think of have some sort of issue preventing them from competing as freely as they would probably like, or from representing sonic entirely. Losing Duck Hunt hurts a little, more from an open CP advantage than direct games he won there. Lack of knowledge stuff also benefited him tons, such as early spring ride kills, and people being unable to deal with spindash/ getting spinjump(?) -> fair'd at 50%. There was also naivete that Sonic wouldn't time you out, but now people understand how really important the lead is. They don't die to hypno punch stupidly, and know to avoid certain ledge snap situations and just fight him when possible. His recovery isn't as invincible as it felt earlier too. And then the nerfs might have kinda caught up, though I don't think that is a big part at all.

Just some guesses, stuff that hurts sanic atm.
 
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freeziebeatz

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OrionRank is doing a Top 25 from Post ZeRo Saga to End of April. We are still in the process of scoring players but here are the average weighted placements of all the contestants so far. The tournaments used are the ones categorized on the OR Data thread.

Dabuz:rosalina::4olimar::4bayonetta: - 3.800
Mr.R:4sheik::4cloud: - 3.825
Nairo:4zss::4lucina: - 5.604
Kirihara:rosalina: - 6.233
Ally:4mario::4dk: - 6.550
Trela:4ryu: - 6.916
Shuton:4olimar: - 7.050
komorikiri:4cloud::4sonic: - 7.325
Marss:4zss::4lucario: - 7.350
Larry Lurr:4fox::4dk: - 7.531
VoiD:4sheik::4fox: - 7.733
CaptainZack:4bayonetta::4wiifit: - 7.858
KEN:4sonic: - 8.031
Abadango:4mewtwo::4metaknight::rosalina::4bayonetta: - 8.300
9B:4bayonetta: - 8.775
HIKARU:4dk::4bowser: - 9.083
Kare~:4falcon: - 9.125
ESAM:4pikachu::4samus::4mewtwo: - 9.500
ZeRo:4diddy::4lucina:- 9.667
Hiro:4bayonetta: - 9.875
MKLeo:4marth::4cloud: - 10.090
Samsora:4peach::rosalina: - 10.450
ikep:4bayonetta: - 10.679
ANTi:4mario::4cloud::4sheik::4zss::4metaknight::4diddy: - 10.817
WormyNugget:4diddy: - 10.917
Deathorse:4mewtwo: - 11.167
Salem:4bayonetta::4samus: - 11.208
Cashmere:4falcon: - 11.250
Fatality:4falcon: - 11.392
Ranai:4villager::4lucina: - 11.400
Ito:4metaknight: - 11.563
Tweek:4cloud::4dk: - 11.563
Zinoto:4diddy: - 11.875
Javi:4cloud::4sheik: - 11.917
SuperGirlKels:4sonic::4kirby: - 11.931
6WX:4sonic: - 12.133
Earth:4pit::4corrinf: - 12.390
Locus:4ryu: - 12.479
Myran:4olimar: - 12.583
Some:4greninja: - 12.583
Ryuga:4corrinf: - 12.750
Blacktwins:4cloud::4mario: - 13.250
Saiki:4sheik: - 13.563
MJG:4villagerf::4tlink: - 13.719
Kameme:4megaman::4sheik::4darkpit: - 13.954
Vinnie:4sheik::rosalina: - 14.173
Tsu-:4lucario::4ryu: - 14.604
Zenyou:4mario: - 14.933
ZD:4fox: - 15.833
Manny:4sonic::4feroy: - 15.313
Chag:4bayonetta: - 15.330
Wrath:4sonic: - 15.417
Child:4bayonetta: - 15.917
WaDi:4mewtwo::4rob: - 16.550
Nietono:4sheik::4diddy: - 16.714
Rich Brown:4mewtwo: - 17.202
ImHip:4olimar::4duckhunt: - 17.500
NAKAT:4fox::4lucina: - 18.000
Elegant:4luigi: - 18.280
MVD:4diddy::4mario: - 18.313
Raito:4duckhunt: - 18.375
Dath:4robinf: - 18.850
Mr.E:4marth::4lucina: - 18.567
Raffi-X:4rob: - 18.755
dyr:4diddy::4cloud: - 19.400
Ac:4metaknight::4falco: - 20.021
Stroder:4greninja: - 20.125
Shaky:4ness: - 20.208
You3:4duckhunt: - 20.500
DarkAura:4greninja: - 20.625
Kome:4shulk: - 20.708
Konga:4dk: - 20.708
Glutonny:4wario: - 20.781
Nicko:4shulk: - 20.818
Pugwest:4marth: - 21.047
Phoenix:4sonic: - 21.125
Shoyo James :4diddy::4luigi: - 21.667
iStudying :4greninja: - 21.679
Black Yoshi:4bayonetta: - 22.028
ScAtt:4megaman: - 22.040
AeroLink:4bayonetta: - 22.083
Xzax:4fox: - 22.083
S1:4ness: - 22.604
Seagull Joe:4sonic::4diddy: - 22.625
Ned:4cloud: - 22.656
Shel:4ryu: - 22.833
Rideae:4pikachu: - 22.917
Brood:4duckhunt: - 23.250
falln:rosalina: - 23.300
SS:4ness::4villager::4cloud: - 23.917
Charliedaking:4fox: - 24.733
KOSSismoss:4gaw::4lucina: - 24.708
Ryo:4myfriends::4corrinf::4feroy: - 25.188
Ri-ma:4tlink: - 25.219
Cacogen:4sheik: - 25.375
Karna:4sheik: - 25.400
John Numbers:4wiifit: - 25.417
Viviff T. Great :4bowser: - 25.500
Blank:4sheik: - 25.583
8BitMan:4rob::4diddy: - 25.700
Eon:4fox: - 25.750
Skorpio:4robinm: - 26.083
k9sbruce:4sheik::4diddy: - 26.200
Legit:4diddy: - 26.238
Angel Cortes:4diddy: - 26.833
Sonido:4sonic: - 26.833
RoguePenguin:4mario: - 26.892
Pink Fresh :4bayonetta: - 26.975
Tyrant:4metaknight: - 27.000
Sinji:4pacman: - 27.063
Luhtie:4zss: - 27.100
T:4link: - 27.223
DSS:4metaknight: - 27.792
DKWill:4dk: - 28.000
saj :4bayonetta::4peach: - 28.817
Smasher1001:4mario::4megaman: - 29.144
Mew2King:4cloud: - 29.375
MrConCon:4luigi: - 29.400
JK:4bayonetta: - 30.500
Frozen:4corrinf: - 30.583
ven:4zelda: - 30.833
Big D - :4mario::4falcon::4dedede: - 31.056
Ross:4tlink: - 31.583
Remzi:4zss: - 32.000
IC:4diddy: - 32.313
DarkShad:4ryu: - 32.354
Aarvark:4villager: - 32.375
3xA :4tlink: - 33.021
Nyanko:4sheik: - 34.000
WiiASE:4ryu::4cloud: - 34.833
Papa Wall:4yoshi: - 35.125
Ookami:4megaman::4greninja: - 35.375
Captain L:4pikachu: - 35.563
Kodystri:4lucas::4corrinf: - 35.781
tyroy:4bayonetta: - 36.167
Rain:4cloud::4diddy: - 36.583
FOW:4ness: - 37.000
FILIP:4mario::4cloud: - 37.517
Jtails:4diddy::4marth: - 39.313
Jan:rosalina::4ryu: - 39.893
Zan:4tlink::4mewtwo: - 39.700
Tumultus:4zss: - 40.375
Regi Shikimi:4gaw::4corrinf: - 40.917
Xaltis:rosalina::4lucina: - 40.938
ewok:4cloud: - 41.875
WonderBreaD:4littlemac: - 42.000
Apa~:4ryu: - 42.25
Bedgar:4sheik: - 42.25
Snoop:4yoshi: - 42.438
Umeki:4peach: - 42.625
PikPocket:4villager: - 42.917
Vash:4littlemac: - 43.188
Player-1:4diddy: - 43.500
Braixen:4diddy: - 44.375
FuTure:4ness: - 45.563
DJ Fliphop:4diddy: - 47.375
Day:4lucario: - 47.625
Kogarasuma:4lucina: - 49.131
Ghost:4fox: - 49.300
Diablo:4ryu: - 51.250
Felix:4fox: - 52.000
TonySherbert:rosalina: - 52.917
Bloddcross:4fox::4charizard: - 52.958
JJROCKETS:4diddy: - 54.875
LingLing:4peach: - 56.408
Ezreal:4pikachu: - 56.833
Stealthy:rosalina: - 57.25
Cyro:4falco: - 58.125
King Will:4sonic: - 64.375
Lycan:4diddy: - 65.000
JaK:4diddy: - 66.875
Teb:4mario: - 80.125
Meteor:4sonic: - 85.125
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
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Messages
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^One thing I noticed from the 0-10 is :rosalina: is very much a top tier/top 10. That shouldn't come into question anymore after Debuz and Kirihara's big wins.

Also there's a case for :4olimar: and :4falcon: to be high tier, not that I doubted them before.

In general the Orion rankings have a lot of character diversity. It's great to see a smash game not be completely dominated by the same 10 or so characters.
 
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Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
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This has probably already been shared in here and i'm just very late, but just in case not, give this a watch y'all;


While a lot of the lower level community seems to be up in arms about this, this video just goes to show you how easily a real top player can break this down and show how it's not that big of a deal.

When people realise how you counter this like Dabuz says, it will die out. It's like learning a new MU; once you know it, it becomes easier. MVD just didn't know this particular "MU"; hence, he lost.
 

DunnoBro

The Free-est
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Timeouts were never the issue, they're going to stop but Bayo will never stop camping the ledge fishing for kills.
 

soniczx123

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Switch FC
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In Pokémon Red and Blue/Green, Charizard was unable to learn Fly.


Now, I had this question hovering my mind for a while now: do you guys have any idea why Sonic, overall, dropped in results?
I have only thought of a combination of KEN not attending many tournaments, Wonf/Komo preferring the DLCs and the rest of Sonics not being as strong.
:196:
It was a case of theory not being able to align with reality, I guess
 

TDK

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KSB 2017 (105 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: MKLeo :4cloud2: :4marth:
2nd: Abadango :4mewtwo: :4bayonetta2:
3rd: Komorikiri :4cloud2: :4sonic: :4marth:
4th: Earth :4corrinf: :4pit:
5th: Edge :4diddy:
5th: Sigma :4tlink:
7th: Ranai :4villager:
7th: Masashi :4cloud2:
9th: Kuro :4pit:
9th: 9B :4bayonetta2:
9th: KEN :4sonic:
9th: HIKARU :4dk:
13th: Yamanyon :4cloud2: :4zss:
13th: Atelier :rosalina:
13th: Ginko :4pacman::4mewtwo:(?)
13th: ikep :4bayonetta2:
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
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I've heard most Zard mains say Serge is the best Charizard around.
Also, a fair amount of Zard mains seem to think Sharpy's overrated, sometimes considering some Zards well above him, the other 2 most common answer being Tosshi from Japan ( who has a win over Ranai ) and Fire from France ( who has been doing increasingly good in Europe lately )
Serge maybe, sharply would still be my pick from what I have seem of his gameplay.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
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It was a case of theory not being able to align with reality, I guess
I expect this to be the case with Bayonetta as well. Not the drop off, but theory not aligning with reality.

And on THAT note, I've noticed that the Bayo annoyance has nothing to do with the actual players (for the most part). It's mostly others finding it annoying to *watch*. From that end, counterplay existing for planking is irrelevant. It's gotta be put to use, and fast.
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,537
KSB 2017 (105 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: MKLeo :4cloud2: :4marth:
2nd: Abadango :4mewtwo:
3rd: Komorikiri :4cloud2: :4sonic: :4marth:
4th: Earth :4corrinf: :4pit:
5th: Edge :4diddy:
5th: Sigma :4tlink:
7th: Ranai :4villager:
7th: Masashi :4cloud2:
9th: Kuro :4pit:
9th: 9B :4bayonetta2:
9th: KEN :4sonic:
9th: HIKARU :4dk:
13th: Yamanyon :4cloud2: :4zss:
13th: Atelier :rosalina:
13th: Ginko :4pacman:
13th: ikep :4bayonetta2:

Aba used :4bayonetta2: vs Masashi and Ginko according to some sources
 

my_T

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Messages
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KSB 2017 (105 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: MKLeo :4cloud2: :4marth:
2nd: Abadango :4mewtwo: :4bayonetta2:(?)
3rd: Komorikiri :4cloud2: :4sonic: :4marth:
4th: Earth :4corrinf: :4pit:
5th: Edge :4diddy:
5th: Sigma :4tlink:
7th: Ranai :4villager:
7th: Masashi :4cloud2:
9th: Kuro :4pit:
9th: 9B :4bayonetta2:
9th: KEN :4sonic:
9th: HIKARU :4dk:
13th: Yamanyon :4cloud2: :4zss:
13th: Atelier :rosalina:
13th: Ginko :4pacman:
13th: ikep :4bayonetta2:
is there a bracket for this?
 

ぱみゅ

❤ ~
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Abadango's twitter said he won with Bayonetta against Ginko's Mewtwo.
:196:
 

sleepy_Nex

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
209
he also used Bayonetta vs Mkleo and showed an impressive SD on his very last stock.

I don't think secondary Bayos really pay off.
 
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