Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[williamsga555]

Pools: http://challonge.com/KSB2017S4T (One person per pool makes it out)
Top 16: http://challonge.com/KSB2017S4T16T

Damn, Zaki () is always so close. One spot away from Top 16, double eliminated by Masashi. Glad to see he's still putting in work, though.

 

[TimidKitsune129]

Geez, Earth 2-0'd both KEN AND Ranai??
Did he use Corrin or pit?

Not sure on KEN but he used Corrin against Ranai.

He also used Corrin against Sigma.

 

[TDK]

Geez, Earth 2-0'd both KEN AND Ranai??
Did he use Corrin or pit?

Corrin vs Ranai for sure, Earth vs KEN wasn't on stream but I'd assume Corrin since that's who he's been playing mostly at events. No way of knowing though, since Earth didn't mention who he beat KEN with (or that he beat KEN at all) on his twitter.

 

[Laken64]

Earth usually goes Corrin against KEN in the past since it's a even mu and better than using pit

 

[Frihetsanka]

Do people on Smashboards still believe that Corrin is mid tier, or has she proven that she belongs in high tier yet?

I'm hyped for when Cosmos gets to travel more. I think he has a good chance of ending up on the PGR if he attends enough tournaments. Earth might end up maining Corrin and MkLeo might play her as a secondary (imagine the hype if he uses her in Grand Finals at a major!). Other players like Ryuga, Frozen, and Vivid might keep bringing some results too. 2017 could be a very good year for Corrin.

 

[PJB]

I'd love to see Earth's Corrin against Zero. Zero has always been such a roadblock for his Pit, would be really cool to see that player matchup with Earth's new main (co-main? Idk lol)

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Do people on Smashboards still believe that Corrin is mid tier, or has she proven that she belongs in high tier yet?

You should be telling that to r/smashbros.

 

[Laken64]

I'd love to see Earth's Corrin against Zero. Zero has always been such a roadblock for his Pit, would be really cool to see that player matchup with Earth's new main (co-main? Idk lol)

To be honest I don't think much is going to change between them, is one of Corrin's worst mus (but not impossible as show by Cosmos beating zinoto pgr # 16) along with and who I honestly think are worst than Diddy. But considering it's Earth he might be able to make something happen.

Do people on Smashboards still believe that Corrin is mid tier, or has she proven that she belongs in high tier yet?

I'm hyped for when Cosmos gets to travel more. I think he has a good chance of ending up on the PGR if he attends enough tournaments. Earth might end up maining Corrin and MkLeo might play her as a secondary (imagine the hype if he uses her in Grand Finals at a major!). Other players like Ryuga, Frozen, and Vivid might keep bringing some results too. 2017 could be a very good year for Corrin.

Speaking of Cosmos traveling he said he will be attending Nario saga next month on stream I believe so we'll be seeing the best rep out there in a stacked pgr tournament.

 

[pichuplayer]

Do people on Smashboards still believe that Corrin is mid tier, or has she proven that she belongs in high tier yet?

I'm hyped for when Cosmos gets to travel more. I think he has a good chance of ending up on the PGR if he attends enough tournaments. Earth might end up maining Corrin and MkLeo might play her as a secondary (imagine the hype if he uses her in Grand Finals at a major!). Other players like Ryuga, Frozen, and Vivid might keep bringing some results too. 2017 could be a very good year for Corrin.

No I think she's actually high tier but right now I'm not thinking that she's 13th more low top 20

 

[Nah]

Do people on Smashboards still believe that Corrin is mid tier, .

Upper mid, but yes =)

 

[Rizen]

If we're talking high tier as in B of the current tier list, fits there nicely. I'd move him down a little but to stay in that tier.

 

[pichuplayer]

If we're talking high tier as in B of the current tier list, fits there nicely. I'd move him down a little but to stay in that tier.

Yeah I was thinking that I'd have her...18th or 19th currently

 

[Nu~]

Can we talk about why Corrin deserves to be that high though?

He/She still has among the worst disadvantage state of the FE chars and a rather bland nuetral (with a heavy reliance on that busted ass side B)
Their advantage state is lit tho.

I think they destroy a third of the cast pretty easily with side B alone, but start struggling when you get into high tier. Villager and peach for instance seem like they have an abundance of tools to really mess up Corrin's day.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

he also used Bayonetta vs Mkleo and showed an impressive SD on his very last stock.

I don't think secondary Bayos really pay off.

Well despite choking vs Leo there.. Aba's Bayo is actually looking pretty decent. He won sets using just her at KSB and he placed 2nd in another competition Japan last week using exclusively Bayo as well.

 

[DunnoBro]

Corrin's Disadvantage is possibly the BEST among the FE characters IMO

Dair, Counter, Fair (which sets up for her vortex. So much more potent than something like a diddy or roy fair) As well as cross-up dragon bite.

Not to mention her ledge options, boasting an above average ledge hang, a scary and safe as hell rising options in fair and pin, and her recovery itself can put out a hitbox on the ledge to deter ledge traps. Immediately superior to Ike and Robin, only contested possibly by Marth.

I feel like people categorize disadvantage state as just how well they can escape or recover, not how much advantage they can generate from disadvantage state.

Regardless, Corrin struggles when forced to approach. Which is the gameplan for all the top tiers. Plus, there's not a lot of rep for her. Due to the timing of Corrin's release, if people wanted a FE Swordfighter they had plenty to choose from. and if they just wanted a disjointed good character, there's Cloud for that. So largely only character loyalists are pushing the meta, which slows development considerably.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I expect this to be the case with Bayonetta as well. Not the drop off, but theory not aligning with reality.

And on THAT note, I've noticed that the Bayo annoyance has nothing to do with the actual players (for the most part). It's mostly others finding it annoying to *watch*. From that end, counterplay existing for planking is irrelevant. It's gotta be put to use, and fast.

I feel like an abnormally with her, I don't hate her outside of witch time because I can sneeze on her and potentially die for it. How she plays is fine with me even as a heavy weight main. Doesn't help I play a character whom planking against is a really stupid idea but still.

I'm more annoyed with characters like Diddy who get free neutrals from one special move and that pressure alone makes him far more obnoxious.

Only players I got a semi problem with for Bayo is Zack because of his attitude he puts up and some stuff I've heard from players in his region, won't elaborate on stuff I'm not confident is close to 100% though, the character is overturned but honestly if more patches where to happen I can see her working just fine. She had the DLC Cloud issue as well where they needed more work but it ended early before more happened.

I still think she isn't the best character to this day, top 5 easily or even top 3 but not the best. She has strong highs but she has some falling in that I do think she is slightly slow in terms of movement when she can't use Side B to cover for her and her death range is pretty low and easy for many to exploit. You have to respect her in terms of her moves but she can die sub 100 easily, but I do admit, a lot of this is experience of me playing Bayo mains in my region, one of which I am 3-3 with this season when I got a shot at making PR if not HM in Wisconsin where he will absolutely be placed higher than me. Just saying this to say I'm not blind to how good she is but rather I do think people are blowing this out of proportion because people do hate Bayo for reasons I understand but don't agree with. I just can't dislike her, not like villager, Ice Climbers, Diddy where I do get super frustrated.

Planking is a lot of character dependent and it's not even that bad, players need to adapt better to things they aren't used to. Bayo planking has nothing to what 3-5 characters in Brawl or even Melee can do.

 

[Nu~]

Corrin's Disadvantage is possibly the BEST among the FE characters IMO

Dair, Counter, Fair (which sets up for her vortex. So much more potent than something like a diddy or roy fair) As well as cross-up dragon bite.

Not to mention her ledge options, boasting an above average ledge hang, a scary and safe as hell rising options in fair and pin, and her recovery itself can put out a hitbox on the ledge to deter ledge traps. Immediately superior to Ike and Robin, only contested possibly by Marth.

I feel like people categorize disadvantage state as just how well they can escape or recover, not how much advantage they can generate from disadvantage state.

Regardless, Corrin struggles when forced to approach. Which is the gameplan for all the top tiers. Plus, there's not a lot of rep for her. Due to the timing of Corrin's release, if people wanted a FE Swordfighter they had plenty to choose from. and if they just wanted a disjointed good character, there's Cloud for that. So largely only character loyalists are pushing the meta, which slows development considerably.

Ah, I was more so focused on how bad her airspeed is along with her semi-fastfaller status.

Forgot about that dumb Dair and her ledge options.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'm curious about Bayo's susceptibility to Sheik's Uthrow kill confirms, and what other characters can do similar.

Recently I discovered Mario can do similar with Uthrow, though it demands DI out. Otherwise, SJP just can't hit since she'll be straight above him. However, No DI or Inward DI is guaranteed death on DThrow, so it isn't too hard to force her to DI OUT.

Essentially, it's either SJP which hits her even if she jumps, and Uair kills if she airdodges. (Dair could work if you only get the last hit, unfortunately no matter how much rage mario has, she can bat within between hits.)

Duck hunt can also do similar. Uair lingers juuust long enough to cover both airdodge/no airdodge. And Can seems to be largely unavoidable after jumping away. And again, this is only possible with DI OUT, otherwise can just won't go in the proper angle.

(Also Again, DI in is guaranteed death on dthrow).

Now, put a big fast asterisk on these. Not because they might not work, I know they do. But I'm not going to go out of my way to give away my secrets to naysayers.

So just for theorizing's sake, in addition to bypassing her oppressive recovery and ledge options, uthrows might have true potential here. And more than just against bayo, of course.

 

[my_T]

Can we talk about why Corrin deserves to be that high though?

He/She still has among the worst disadvantage state of the FE chars and a rather bland nuetral (with a heavy reliance on that busted *** side B)
Their advantage state is lit tho.

I think they destroy a third of the cast pretty easily with side B alone, but start struggling when you get into high tier. Villager and peach for instance seem like they have an abundance of tools to really mess up Corrin's day.

A few reasons:

Her neutral is actually pretty good (not Sonic, Diddy, Rosa tier but good). Here's why. Tied with Sheik for best dash to shield in the game at 8 frames. I see very few people talk about this attribute when analyzing a character. In Corrins case it's REALLY good. She's slow, but this weakness is remedied by her range and disjoint. In most MU's, unless you're using a projectile, You're forced to enter Corrins zone before she enters yours no matter how you/he/she approaches. Side B and her dash->shield ties everything up. Side B makes her seem much faster than what she really is and is one of the best burst options in the game because of it's speed, range, disjoint, and risk/reward. Her dash->shield being 8 frames makes it so that she can pull up her shield in very short dash intervals; making it easier to deal with projectiles and giving her a strong and practical defensive option even at close/mid range (most characters don't have this luxury!). I think the Corrin vs Sonic MU illustrates a lot of my points.

Her advantage state is very strong. I think most of us have seen why. Not going to go into detail.

Her disadvantage is meh. Not bad not good. DunnoBro summed it up pretty well but I would add the momentum shifting of her bair helps with landing.

Overall a strong character. I'm surprised so many people had/have doubts in her.

 

[Rizen]

I don't hate or think she needs to be banned or have rules made against her but do find her annoying. I think the character design is poor and over-tuned. She has so many things going for her. Bullet arts that can't be reflected and can extend most of her attacks. Other attacks with variable commitment like Fair having optional hits. Taunts don't matter but the whole point of taunting is to make yourself vulnerable as a middle finger to the opponent; they shouldn't be cancelable. A supposed weakness in slow startup largely negated by a frame 4 upB that is her key combo starter and doesn't cause freefall. Supposedly bad dodges but with bat within making her spot/air dodge effectively start frame 1. A combo starting/extending sideB that can be used more than once in the air along with witch twist. Impressive hitbubbles on most of her attacks and specials that are even hard for a sword to challenge (upB beats Link's Dair). UpB with set BKB on the initial hit pared with rage and her unique counter for easy single hits. Witch time, the best counter in the game that can slow opponents from projectiles hitting with an AOE effect. This means lingering hitbubbles like bombs, crash bomber and bananas are dangerous to use against WTime but safe against every other counter if spaced a few character lengths away. This also endangers Zairs and other disjointed 'counter-safe' pokes. WTime allows any attacks including combo starters or your choice of smashes or spikes, unlike other counters which are mainly KO style single hits. A ladder combo factoring in WTime and all the crazy up/side B stuff. Things like the above mentioned Fair, bullet arts, upB hitboxes, dunking Dair and leggy Bair/Nar paired with possible the best recovery in the game. Dair like that using Sheik and you won't come back up. A kill Fthrow so you have to respect her grab at high %s, unlike Fox, for example. Shield cancel Bullet climax for almost no risk.

Many characters break one or maybe 2 character conventions but Bayo has so many things going for her. Even if you nerfed witch time, arguably her best move, to obscurity she'd still be top tier. She's an extremely oppressive, low risk/high reward character without a real weakness. I mean she's no Brawl top tier but still very tiring to play around because the versatility of how she can abuse you and escape abuse herself. IMO she has a ton of potential yet to be seen.

 

[Megamang]

Also, Bayo's dair has some stupid knockback on the landing hitbox. Stupid as in, it really doesn't make any sense at all. I can't think of much that powerful that really doesn't look like it should be. And her hitboxes are the most oppressive part IMO, trades would help you not get combo'd but she can often just beat your move outright.

Corrin's bair is also an insanely good spacing move, really high damage, really safe because of the momentum shift, and her fast uair/nair threatens a different timing than the bair so airdodging is scary.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Her bair is also an insanely good spacing move, really high damage, really safe because of the momentum, and her fast uair/nair threatens a different timing than the bair so airdodging is scary.

Bair is really good but like most spacing moves it's punishable when not spaced at the tip of the foot due to the lower damage on the leg.

This is probably part of the reason why her MU's with characters with strong options from grab do well against her; ie Ness Back Throw.

Also, landing into a shield with held Nair or Uair is unsafe and easily shield grabbed/Up B OoS'd (unless she manages to cross up your shield, which is easier done with Uair, but still tricky to do).

 

[L9999]

Bair is really good but like most spacing moves it's punishable when not spaced at the tip of the foot due to the lower damage on the leg.

This is probably part of the reason why her MU's with characters with strong options from grab do well against her; ie Ness Back Throw.

Also, landing into a shield with held Nair or Uair is unsafe and easily shield grabbed/Up B OoS'd (unless she manages to cross up your shield, which is easier done with Uair, but still tricky to do).

Did you say "do well against Corrin" and "Ness" on the same sentence? Because that is not true at all.

 

[my_T]

This is probably part of the reason why her MU's with characters with strong options from grab do well against her; ie Ness Back Throw.

Not all of them. Ness, Mario, and Luigi have a hard time with Corrin. DK and Bowser put up a good fight against her but it's not because of their grab reward, it's because of their speed and range. Diddy and Sheik have banana and needles. Falcon has his speed coupled with his 50/50s'. The reason some of the characters do well against Corrin where the others do not has little to do with grab reward

 

[Emblem Lord]

Corrin overly relies on one great one move. Dragon Pin is amazing, but if Corrin is fighting anyone that shuts that move down or punishes the kick away consistently then Corrin is boned. And please let's not forget that besides Jab, Corrin does not have a single safe button on shield on the ground. Thus Corrin is even more limited to special moves, nair and fair.

Corrin might be high tier, but that's the limit for this character. Yes. Facts.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Did you say "do well against Corrin" and "Ness" on the same sentence? Because that is not true at all.

Not all of them. Ness, Mario, and Luigi have a hard time with Corrin. DK and Bowser put up a good fight against her but it's not because of their grab reward, it's because of their speed and range. Diddy and Sheik have banana and needles. Falcon has his speed coupled with his 50/50s'. The reason some of the characters do well against Corrin where the others do not has little to do with grab reward

I am silly.

I saw "Bayo" in the first sentence and then saw "Bair" and my brain thought it was referring to Bayonetta.

I need coffee...

Whatever; what I said about Bayonetta still stands. And Megamang , in regarrds to Bayonetta's Dair, it likely has strong knockback on the final hit to replicate how the same move works in her home series; it drags aerial opponents down (regardless of where it hits I'll add; be thankful for small mercies) and launches them away on the ground. Average combo finisher, and good for getting chip damage on opponents on the ground if you are finished with your aerial opponent. Not trying to defend it, but merely explaining why it's the case.

Speaking of which, I wonder if people who have actually played Bayonetta's games realise how similar but strangely different her moves are at the same time. Yes, ABK is a combo move in the air, but imagine if the Smash version was a multi hit that always ended with the opponent infront of you. Imagine if DABK was also a multi hit that dragged the opponent downwards (free pseudo-spikes bois). Imagine if Witch Twist could be done during a roll/dodge. Imagine if her dodges and Bat Within triggered Witch Time...

Smash Bayonetta still has more options than most/arguably all other characters, but she's incredibly weaker than her home series self. We should be thankful Sakurai didn't make a 1-to-1 copy of her and her move's original properties.

Then we'd all have been f*****.




Anyway, back to Smash...




Suppose I'll chip in on the actual Bair in question then; Corrin's Bair is indeed good. IIRC, you need to use it closer to the top of the short hop to make full use of the momentum shift. If it's done lower down the momentum shift won't help as much and can be punished. And as before if you space it near the base of the wings regardless, it should be punishable.

But the momentum shift itself can throw you off; you may think you could get a grab but because the momentum shift pushes him away you may need to use something else.; this is what makes it deceptive and a good move (that and it's overall kill power). It can also be confirmed into from a Dragon Fang Shot which KO's at a solid 90%-100% based on positioning near the ledge.

Also, in relation to something I saw earlier, Corrin's disadvantage isn't that bad. If Corrin's backed into a corner, it's not like he has a relatively quick, frame 8 instant move that can completely invalidate certain characters/forces a defensive option. Can be punished by a few characters but it can be used to reverse the pressure.

Nair is also surprisingly quick too; not Mario Nair (frame 3), but IIRC it's frame 6, which is kinda silly considering it's disjoint and hitbox coverage.

 

[ARGHETH]

Also, in relation to something I saw earlier, Corrin's disadvantage isn't that bad. If Corrin's backed into a corner, it's not like he has a frame 3 instant move that can completely invalidate certain characters/forces a defensive option. Can be punished by a few characters but it can be used to reverse the pressure.

Pin's frame 8 from the ground. The problem with using it when backed into a corner is that on miss you'll usually have to either kick back (maybe offstage) or jump, neither of which are particularly attractive options.

Nair is also surprisingly quick too; not Mario Nair (frame 3), but IIRC it's frame 5, which is kinda silly considering it's disjoint and hitbox coverage.

Frame 6, actually.

 

[JB333]

Pools are out for Umebura Japan Major!

Pools: https://smash.gg/tournament/umebura-japan-major/events
Translated Pools: https://smash.gg/tournament/umebura-japan-major-translated


Also, Shuton will unfortunately not be able to attend due to a stomach virus: https://twitter.com/syu_tolimar/status/860433509181145088

 

[blackghost]

I am silly.

I saw "Bayo" in the first sentence and then saw "Bair" and my brain thought it was referring to Bayonetta.

I need coffee...

Whatever; what I said about Bayonetta still stands. And Megamang , in regarrds to Bayonetta's Dair, it likely has strong knockback on the final hit to replicate how the same move works in her home series; it drags aerial opponents down (regardless of where it hits I'll add; be thankful for small mercies) and launches them away on the ground. Average combo finisher, and good for getting chip damage on opponents on the ground if you are finished with your aerial opponent. Not trying to defend it, but merely explaining why it's the case.

Speaking of which, I wonder if people who have actually played Bayonetta's games realise how similar but strangely different her moves are at the same time. Yes, ABK is a combo move in the air, but imagine if the Smash version was a multi hit that always ended with the opponent infront of you. Imagine if DABK was also a multi hit that dragged the opponent downwards (free pseudo-spikes bois). Imagine if Witch Twist could be done during a roll/dodge. Imagine if her dodges and Bat Within triggered Witch Time...

Smash Bayonetta still has more options than most/arguably all other characters, but she's incredibly weaker than her home series self. We should be thankful Sakurai didn't make a 1-to-1 copy of her and her move's original properties.

Then we'd all have been f*****.




Anyway, back to Smash...




Suppose I'll chip in on the actual Bair in question then; Corrin's Bair is indeed good. IIRC, you need to use it closer to the top of the short hop to make full use of the momentum shift. If it's done lower down the momentum shift won't help as much and can be punished. And as before if you space it near the base of the wings regardless, it should be punishable.

But the momentum shift itself can throw you off; you may think you could get a grab but because the momentum shift pushes him away you may need to use something else.; this is what makes it deceptive and a good move (that and it's overall kill power). It can also be confirmed into from a Dragon Fang Shot which KO's at a solid 90%-100% based on positioning near the ledge.

Also, in relation to something I saw earlier, Corrin's disadvantage isn't that bad. If Corrin's backed into a corner, it's not like he has a relatively quick, frame 8 instant move that can completely invalidate certain characters/forces a defensive option. Can be punished by a few characters but it can be used to reverse the pressure.

Nair is also surprisingly quick too; not Mario Nair (frame 3), but IIRC it's frame 6, which is kinda silly considering it's disjoint and hitbox coverage.

You left out the really fun stuff like down throw combo into d smash, jab into fsmash, with time projectiles and reflecting them, or giving bayo her swords. You're right fair is a perfect replica of her in series down air attack likely as an Easter egg for fans. It's probably why bayo mains that come from the series use it more than others see Zack and salem vs 9b and pink. But that strong knockback on spike dair does happen after a missed ground tech. Her dair landing hitbox is the main kb its difficult but tech it leaves her wide open

 

[Nah]

I feel like people sort of downplay how much the mobility can hurt/overstate Corrin's range. Act as if everything has Fsmash range, as if we're not playing a game with plenty of characters who also have good range or doesn't have dumb clanking mechanics.

 

[|RK|]

Thing Dabuz taught me about Corrin is that her mobility is bad enough that most characters can run away pretty easily. Dragon Lunge is much better as a punish than an aggressive option. And in addition, because of this awful mobility, you can force a fight when up close, because Corrin doesn't have the mobility to run away from you.

 

[TDK]

Pools are out for Umebura Japan Major!

Pools: https://smash.gg/tournament/umebura-japan-major/events
Translated Pools: https://smash.gg/tournament/umebura-japan-major-translated

Some interesting things from here:

Ranai vs YOC
9B vs Gackt or Paseriman (Both bad matchups for Bayo)
Abadango vs Tosshi
Edge vs Tsu~ (A lot of Japanese players seem to have a Falcon problem, I wonder if this extends to Edge)
HIKARU vs Ke-Ya
Taiheita vs Brood
Nietono vs Lea
Atelier vs Masha (WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY)
Mew2king vs Taranito (Wonder how M2K will do with no melee to distract him)

FILIP vs Onpu (Not finals, Hayato. is in this pool, but Ven says this is a good matchup for Zelda, so this is going to be fun)

I can't wait.

 

[Bowserboy3]

The UK has updated (tbh I think this is the first true iteration) the England PR.

Here it is for those interested:

I am ashamed to be based in an area of the UK with 3 top Sonics kappa

 

[Illuminose]

i don't like the implication that corrin is one-dimensional, a one-trick pony with pin. this is just blatantly untrue; corrin has a number of effective options and pin is far from the only thing you have to worry about and contend with when facing corrin in neutral. corrin is one of those characters that has a very complete set of tools to shut down all of your ways to get in on her. her neutral is essentially played through use of tricky movement and setups, which are so effective because, even if you know every gimmick, that doesn't mean there is a straight forward answer to it. you jump around in neutral, utilizing a combination of empty hops and spaced fair/nair/bair to condition shield. when you use full hop/double jump though, that's where the real tricks come in. corrin does a very good job at being able to threaten an attack without actually using it because of pin and her highly effective falling nair, which is hard to punish in most cases unless you are in shieldgrab range. this highly effective set of options is complemented by a fairly solid dtilt and jab, as well as dfs which is a decent projectile and absurd air dodge trap, fsmash for other ground game, and dsmash for dangerous oos punished. she can bait you into scenarios where you get hit extremely effectively because you think there's an opening, but then corrin still has the time to cover herself. a lot of the things corrin does are very safe and tricky, which makes the defensive standpoint to the matchup that people think is effective generally ill-advised. there's also this idea that corrin can't approach, something that is blatantly untrue and ignorant of how the character can exert positional pressure and utilize her offensive options.

another thing is that i don't think people realize how threatening of a character corrin is to fight. she kills sub 100 off ledge coverage (fsmash, pin, dfs) and generally has a lot of ways to catch you, especially if you ever air dodge because dfs bite is so strong and if you ever get caught by dfs because tipper pin kills so early. in general, especially because of pin but other strong options as well, corrin is very scary to fight and has her own share of jank. corrin can also get a lot of good damage off hits, especially with platform extensions, and can frame trap air dodges effectively because of nair. up air is also a ridiculous juggling tool, and you have bair/pin with range to catch people while they try to land. there's a lot to worry about while playing neutral because of random ko options and a ton of pressure in disadvantageous situations.

flaws people commonly cite (other than laming out corrin which i already addressed) include poor disadvantage state and mobility. for one, corrin's disadvantage state is far from bad. nair does a lot as a fairly quick option with a lot of coverage. it's the type of option that can force you to go for resets while comboing corrin, which reduces what you can do. it's especially effective because it is a very rewarding move to connect. dair also exists as a landing mixup. it's not perfect and a couple characters can still juggle you (basically just rosa and cloud), but landing vs most characters is not that hard. the ledge situations are a little odd in some ways, but having access to pin, jump->land with nair or dair, and ok ledge hop options makes it manageable. corrin gets ledge trapped, but not more than any average character in the cast for sure and certainly less than some of the characters considered top tier. people will also talk about recovery as a huge flaw, but anyone who has really played the matchup knows that gimping corrin is realistically hard. you have to be very precise because corrin's up b hitboxes are insanely good. her up b can be gimped for sure, but people act like every character can just get edgeguards on her like it's something consistent, which just is not true.

in terms of matchups, i think it's definitely worth noting that corrin's matchup spread is just better than most other ~11-20 characters on the tier list. at this point, diddy is only considered to have a slightly advantageous matchup by virtually every relevant corrin player. cloud is considered to be at a very slight advantage. sheik has a slight more relevant advantage, though it's still not huge, and bayo/fox also win. every other matchup is even or better, and every losing matchup is doable. corrin is commonly considered to beat mario, either go even with or beat sonic/rosa/mewtwo, and go even with marth/zss. the character's matchups vs many high tiers and mid tiers tend to be very solid.

the relatively low representation of corrin at top level atm tends to confuse people about corrin. there's SO much misinformation about this character, which is why when people see a top player rank corrin highly (because they have played with very good corrin players that show the character's best attributes) they don't understand it because they don't even know what good corrin looks like. watch earth, please. watch cosmos, ryuga too (though he's not quite as good as those two), yoc, frozen. leo's corrin that he used at the arena is also solid, as well as the japanese wifi player lc, and vivid. when people say things like 'poor/linear neutral', 'bad recovery', 'no landing options', 'loses to lame/campy play', and 'few good moves', i think it just speaks to not knowing the character.

i consider corrin an easy pick for top 15, could be top 10 in the future but definitely top 15. i really do not think there is an argument that 15 characters exist with better matchups than corrin to merit placing them above and dropping corrin lower.

 

[Nu~]

i don't like the implication that corrin is one-dimensional, a one-trick pony with pin. this is just blatantly untrue; corrin has a number of effective options and pin is far from the only thing you have to worry about and contend with when facing corrin in neutral. corrin is one of those characters that has a very complete set of tools to shut down all of your ways to get in on her. her neutral is essentially played through use of tricky movement and setups, which are so effective because, even if you know every gimmick, that doesn't mean there is a straight forward answer to it. you jump around in neutral, utilizing a combination of empty hops and spaced fair/nair/bair to condition shield. when you use full hop/double jump though, that's where the real tricks come in. corrin does a very good job at being able to threaten an attack without actually using it because of pin and her highly effective falling nair, which is hard to punish in most cases unless you are in shieldgrab range. this highly effective set of options is complemented by a fairly solid dtilt and jab, as well as dfs which is a decent projectile and absurd air dodge trap, fsmash for other ground game, and dsmash for dangerous oos punished. she can bait you into scenarios where you get hit extremely effectively because you think there's an opening, but then corrin still has the time to cover herself. a lot of the things corrin does are very safe and tricky, which makes the defensive standpoint to the matchup that people think is effective generally ill-advised. there's also this idea that corrin can't approach, something that is blatantly untrue and ignorant of how the character can exert positional pressure and utilize her offensive options.

another thing is that i don't think people realize how threatening of a character corrin is to fight. she kills sub 100 off ledge coverage (fsmash, pin, dfs) and generally has a lot of ways to catch you, especially if you ever air dodge because dfs bite is so strong and if you ever get caught by dfs because tipper pin kills so early. in general, especially because of pin but other strong options as well, corrin is very scary to fight and has her own share of jank. corrin can also get a lot of good damage off hits, especially with platform extensions, and can frame trap air dodges effectively because of nair. up air is also a ridiculous juggling tool, and you have bair/pin with range to catch people while they try to land. there's a lot to worry about while playing neutral because of random ko options and a ton of pressure in disadvantageous situations.

flaws people commonly cite (other than laming out corrin which i already addressed) include poor disadvantage state and mobility. for one, corrin's disadvantage state is far from bad. nair does a lot as a fairly quick option with a lot of coverage. it's the type of option that can force you to go for resets while comboing corrin, which reduces what you can do. it's especially effective because it is a very rewarding move to connect. dair also exists as a landing mixup. it's not perfect and a couple characters can still juggle you (basically just rosa and cloud), but landing vs most characters is not that hard. the ledge situations are a little odd in some ways, but having access to pin, jump->land with nair or dair, and ok ledge hop options makes it manageable. corrin gets ledge trapped, but not more than any average character in the cast for sure and certainly less than some of the characters considered top tier. people will also talk about recovery as a huge flaw, but anyone who has really played the matchup knows that gimping corrin is realistically hard. you have to be very precise because corrin's up b hitboxes are insanely good. her up b can be gimped for sure, but people act like every character can just get edgeguards on her like it's something consistent, which just is not true.

in terms of matchups, i think it's definitely worth noting that corrin's matchup spread is just better than most other ~11-20 characters on the tier list. at this point, diddy is only considered to have a slightly advantageous matchup by virtually every relevant corrin player. cloud is considered to be at a very slight advantage. sheik has a slight more relevant advantage, though it's still not huge, and bayo/fox also win. every other matchup is even or better, and every losing matchup is doable. corrin is commonly considered to beat mario, either go even with or beat sonic/rosa/mewtwo, and go even with marth/zss. the character's matchups vs many high tiers and mid tiers tend to be very solid.

the relatively low representation of corrin at top level atm tends to confuse people about corrin. there's SO much misinformation about this character, which is why when people see a top player rank corrin highly (because they have played with very good corrin players that show the character's best attributes) they don't understand it because they don't even know what good corrin looks like. watch earth, please. watch cosmos, ryuga too (though he's not quite as good as those two), yoc, frozen. leo's corrin that he used at the arena is also solid, as well as the japanese wifi player lc, and vivid. when people say things like 'poor/linear neutral', 'bad recovery', 'no landing options', 'loses to lame/campy play', and 'few good moves', i think it just speaks to not knowing the character.

I consider corrin an easy pick for top 15, could be top 10 in the future but definitely top 15. i really do not think there is an argument that 15 characters exist with better matchups than corrin to merit placing them above and dropping corrin lower.

How did you manage to write so much while explaining so little?


Not seeing how a nuetral based around tomahawks and Pin fear is "tricky" or makes them any less basic than explained previously.
Also, dtilt and jab are unsafe pokes on shield.

You also didn't explain how Corrin is approaching opponents that can dance outside of his/her effective range.

I'm not buying that nair and dair are enough to make it so that only cloud and rosa can consistently juggle Corrin. The likes of Marth, villager, and mega man are still keeping you up there for eons.

And up B gets spiked the same way fox's up B does. Hit it with a multi hit move and Corrin careens downward.


It's telling that Earth picked up Corrin considering he loved Pit for having a conventional playstyle. Corrin is the same way but with better options (they both share unsafe ground pokes tho) and more frame traps.
Can you also explain why those matchups are good instead of saying "commonly considered"?


And yes, I've watched cosmos, ryuga, and Earth. I see a character who gets a lot out of basic fundamentals.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

How did you manage to write so much while explaining so little?


Not seeing how a nuetral based around tomahawks and Pin fear is "tricky" or makes them any less basic than explained previously.
Also, dtilt and jab are unsafe pokes on shield.

You also didn't explain how Corrin is approaching opponents that can dance outside of his/her effective range.

I'm not buying that nair and dair are enough to make it so that only cloud and rosa can consistently juggle Corrin. The likes of Marth, villager, and mega man are still keeping you up there for eons.

And up B gets spiked the same way fox's up B does. Hit it with a multi hit move and Corrin careens downward.


It's telling that Earth picked up Corrin considering he loved Pit for having a conventional playstyle. Corrin is the same way but with better options (they both share unsafe ground pokes tho) and more frame traps.
Can you also explain why those matchups are good instead of saying "commonly considered"?


And yes, I've watched cosmos, ryuga, and Earth. I see a character who gets a lot out of basic fundamentals.

Corrin doesn't get juggled like crazy very often against Marth. I'm struggling a bit to see how Villager juggles Corrin for eons too. Mega Man I can kind of see.

 

[Nu~]

Corrin doesn't get juggled like crazy very often against Marth. I'm struggling a bit to see how Villager juggles Corrin for eons too. Mega Man I can kind of see.

Villager covers landings with lloid while Uair beats out dair and frame traps air dodges with its long duration.

Shouldn't Marth also make it incredibly hard to land with his large, sweeping aerials and utilt to trap? Corrin has trouble drifting away and aggressive options can be baited and countered.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Corrin's Counter has very little lag upon activation, it is quite safe to throw against projectiles trying to cover your landing options.

 

[Laken64]

I think they destroy a third of the cast pretty easily with side B alone, but start struggling when you get into high tier. Villager and peach for instance seem like they have an abundance of tools to really mess up Corrin's day.

Im pretty sure both are in corrin's favor ( villy might be even idk) peach and villy struggle with disjoints as a whole and samsora and aarvark have lost against Corrin in the past so theres that.

I'm not buying that nair and dair are enough to make it so that only cloud and rosa can consistently juggle Corrin. The likes of Marth, villager, and mega man are still keeping you up there for eons.

Marth and villy don't really juggle Corrin THAT hard but like the post above me said MM might.

diddy is only considered to have a slightly advantageous matchup by virtually every relevant corrin player. cloud is considered to be at a very slight advantage. sheik has a slight more relevant advantage, though it's still not huge, and bayo/fox also win. every other matchup is even or better, and every losing matchup is doable. corrin is commonly considered to beat mario, either go even with or beat sonic/rosa/mewtwo, and go even with marth/zss. the character's matchups vs many high tiers and mid tiers tend to be very solid.

Can you also explain why those matchups are good instead of saying "commonly considered"?

wins because he out neutrals corrin HARD and banana is a general pain like every other character
wins (funny because in fates master ninjas are the most broken class in the game and sheik is no different from that lol) because she out neutrals corrin EVEN HARDER her mobility makes her hard to lock down and hit (though we can get nice combos off when we finally get a hit) and gets past our moves with ease, needles are a pain, offstage is free for shiek and most importantly she has her prepatch 50/50 on corrin with upthrow up air at certain %s.
wins because she's bayo but seriously corrin is combo food for bayo and offstage in this mu is just another word for certain death with fair strings and nair.
wins because his speed overwhelms corrin on stage and the fox vortex is literally hell for corrin considering her weight (98 same as mario but she has a faster fall speed) fair can literally kill corrin offstage without the footstool if it trades, getting fox offstage and juggles is your only hope in this mu.

is even because it depends who gets the hit first, sonic's approach is weak and spindash loses to anything corrin throws out (nair) but sonic can run away if he gets the lead.

is even despite the juggles from rosa side b against luma is basically free so she should be without luma most of the time and both can edgeguard each other hard offstage

is even because corrin can frame trap m2 because of his large frame with nair and other moves and any stray tipper is his demise, however M2 has a devastating combo game and offstage is very rough for corrin.

this is just a quick summary of these mus

Shouldn't Marth also make it incredibly hard to land with his large, sweeping aerials and utilt to trap? Corrin has trouble drifting away and aggressive options can be baited and countered.

If anything corrin juggles marth harder because he has even worse landing options than corrin

 

[Nemesis561]

The UK has updated (tbh I think this is the first true iteration) the England PR.

Here it is for those interested:

View attachment 128859

I am ashamed to be based in an area of the UK with 3 top Sonics kappa

There's a thread dedicated for PRs in the competitive forum. I don't mean it in a rude way I just mean that it's probably better there because it's catalogued there for everyone to see