Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Ziodyne 21]

Wow ..just at Glitch 3 Black Yoshi was up 2-1 on Captian Zack in Bayo dittos. Then Zack switched to on ge 4 and then won the set 3-2 pulling some of the craziest combos and setups I have seen from WFT.

But..Bayo carries Zack amirite?

Zack actullay said im a tweet a little while ago that WFT does pretty good vs Bayo and boy did Zack ever make it look true

 

[Nu~]

I want a G&W saga tbh.

I think the char is severely underrated and has been developing under the radar for quite some time. A character with a disadvantage and advantage state that good can't be low or even low-mid tier.

 

[FeelMeUp]

sagas for characters with little to no rep is unsurprisingly an awful idea.
i'd like to see more general sagas like Pokemon and FE.

 

[Nu~]

sagas for characters with little to no rep is unsurprisingly an awful idea.
i'd like to see more general sagas like Pokemon and FE.

Nah man, there's a lot of undercover rep for G&W.

Like PSY from the same scene S1 and iStudying are from, KOSS from NorCal, Regi, Songn, Extra, Kakpu, Dingus Joe...

I think a saga for "under the radar" chars is a good idea to show people what they can do.

 

[L9999]

Wow ..just at Glitch 3 Black Yoshi was up 2-1 on Captian Zack in Bayo dittos. Then Zack switched to on ge 4 and then won the set 3-2 pulling some of the craziest combos and setups I have seen from WFT.

But..Bayo carries Zack amirite?

Zack actully said im a tweet a little while ago that WFT does pretty good vs Bayo. and boy did Zack make it look that way.

Like Black Yoshi has ever player a WFT.

I want a G&W saga tbh.

I think the char is severely underrated and has been developing under the radar for quite some time. A character with a disadvantage and advantage state that good can't be low or even low-mid tier.

If something is under the radar no one cares, and there is a reason why GnW is under the radar, because he sucks.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Wow ..just at Glitch 3 Black Yoshi was up 2-1 on Captian Zack in Bayo dittos. Then Zack switched to on ge 4 and then won the set 3-2 pulling some of the craziest combos and setups I have seen from WFT.

But..Bayo carries Zack amirite?

Zack actullay said im a tweet a little while ago that WFT does pretty good vs Bayo and boy did Zack ever make it look true

Crazy I heard that John Numbers also thinks this as well (I don't know if he had Bayo as even or just 55:45) I didn't watch the set nor know anywhere near enough about Wii Fit to even imagine why that is though especially against a character like Bayonetta. I'm sure it helps Zack is a Bayonetta player and therefore knows how to fight against her.

 

[|RK|]

Wow ..just at Glitch 3 Black Yoshi was up 2-1 on Captian Zack in Bayo dittos. Then Zack switched to on ge 4 and then won the set 3-2 pulling some of the craziest combos and setups I have seen from WFT.

But..Bayo carries Zack amirite?

Zack actullay said im a tweet a little while ago that WFT does pretty good vs Bayo and boy did Zack ever make it look true

See, now I genuinely wonder how good Zack was before Bayo. Because one of the things that keeps me using Kirby way more than Lucario is the belief that understanding a weaker character and learning to outplay my opponents has taught me way more than maining a stronger character would. And I never want to be accused of being carried by my character.

But at what point does it become more valuable to build up results & strength with a top tier? WaDi was a regional threat before Mewtwo - is that the level I should reach? Should I be the best Kirby in the world first? I genuinely don't want to end up like the people that boost their results short term and end up falling off the face of the Earth.

So to bring it back... how good was Zack pre-Bayonetta?

EDIT: Even Xian, before switching from F.A.N.G. to Ibuki was consistently placing right outside of top 8.

 

[TDK]

See, now I genuinely wonder how good Zack was before Bayo. Because one of the things that keeps me using Kirby way more than Lucario is the belief that understanding a weaker character and learning to outplay my opponents has taught me way more than maining a stronger character would. And I never want to be accused of being carried by my character.

But at what point does it become more valuable to build up results & strength with a top tier? WaDi was a regional threat before Mewtwo - is that the level I should reach? Should I be the best Kirby in the world first? I genuinely don't want to end up like the people that boost their results short term and end up falling off the face of the Earth.

So to bring it back... how good was Zack pre-Bayonetta?

As a Peach main, Zack was a strong regional threat but was usually overshadowed by Samsora both in-region and overall, as they both used the same character and Samsora was better. His best national placement pre-bayo was MLG World Finals, where he placed 25th.

Also, G&W sucks.

 

[|RK|]

As a Peach main, Zack was a strong regional threat but was usually overshadowed by Samsora both in-region and overall, as they both used the same character and Samsora was better. His best national placement pre-bayo was MLG World Finals, where he placed 25th.

Also, G&W sucks.

Mm. Yeah, there's still more work to do, I suppose!

 

[Nu~]

For all those saying G&W sucks, how and why?

 

[Thinkaman]

The problem with this is that ratios/matchups and 'counters' are synonymous with competitive discussion on all levels.
Some questions that fall into your red chart are similar but not limited to

1. 'I'm having trouble with (character name) which character is able to handle this one?'
2. 'Seems like (insert PGR player here) is switching from (character name) to (character name) is that because (secondary character name) has an easier MU with (insert disadvantage MU here) than (insert first character name here)'
3. 'Is (character name) the worst MU for (insert character here) ratio wise? If so why?'
4. 'Are these character MUs even ratio wise? What tools does (insert character name here) have?

These are constant consistent questions that are brought up everytime a major tourney rolls around. They won't go away anytime soon.

The different is that all of these are talking about real gameplay, real content. There are actual answers.

The dangerous endless void of navel-gazing is "discussions" that are purely semantic, arguing over what abstract words and terms mean in a vacuum.



Also, I'd love to have footage of WFT vs. Bayo.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm ok then but if that's the case then what questions concerning what you brought up previously WOULD fall under those categories because honestly I'm not seeing the differences myself. To me they're the same thing. Can you give soe examples?

 

[Emblem Lord]

See, now I genuinely wonder how good Zack was before Bayo. Because one of the things that keeps me using Kirby way more than Lucario is the belief that understanding a weaker character and learning to outplay my opponents has taught me way more than maining a stronger character would. And I never want to be accused of being carried by my character.

But at what point does it become more valuable to build up results & strength with a top tier? WaDi was a regional threat before Mewtwo - is that the level I should reach? Should I be the best Kirby in the world first? I genuinely don't want to end up like the people that boost their results short term and end up falling off the face of the Earth.

So to bring it back... how good was Zack pre-Bayonetta?

EDIT: Even Xian, before switching from F.A.N.G. to Ibuki was consistently placing right outside of top 8.

Life is too short for you to be giving a flying **** about what other miserable humans say about you or who you play, top tier or otherwise.

Just saying.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

For all those saying G&W sucks, how and why?

I think that G&W is probably higher low tier, maybe mid tier. He just has a lot of unfortunate attributes. Lightweight means he dies early to a lot of the cast. Many of his moves have odd active frames (especially dash attack) which give him more success at lower levels. Toot toot isn't a reliable kill combo, and it's kind of hard for him to find other kills outside of bair or usmash pressure.

What major wins does G&W have against top players? I know Regi puts in the work, but his unorthodox move kit means he'll always be problematic for lower and mid level players who don't know what disjointed hitbox might decide to pop out.

At best, he's kind of like a lightweight Yoshi - great hitboxes and movement that needs to be respected, but holes in his armor and few solid ways to finish off stocks. He does at least have throw combos, but they only add on so much more damage unless you risk it all for a 9 or your opponent fills your bucket.

 

[Megamang]

GaW's throw combos are actually insanely good, he has a great grab and throw.

But, why would you get grabbed? His grab sucks, and he doesn't have rising aerials that scare me with their damage/hitbox/power/ combo ability.

Its kinda like Wario, the mixup doesn't work if you just keep him out of the range he wants to do it in. In that, you risk getting dash attacked... but so what?

Again, the top tiers just demolish you for that kind of weakness.

GaW jumps. Shiek has needles charged. Really, the Shiek has to make a mistake or get read to not come out on top, either hitting the landing with needles or shielding his aerials and punishing.

His aerials have interesting qualities, but they don't do what you want them to do. Though my GaW brawl instincts make me want to space with turtle, and that honestly works decently enough that I wonder why I NEVER see it from GaW on stream.

Nair is actually great, but again, keeping him from that range is key and then it doesn't break your zone really.

Hey, does his uair windbox effect still refresh his moves?

 

[Rizen]

IMO fits where he currently is. On the plus side he has good combos from throw, a top tier dash attack, a Usmash that can tank other attacks like a counter due to the 'helmet' invulnerability and a great offstage game.
The down sides are he's very light and gets outclassed by top tiers. He has decent disjoint on several attacks like Bair but then you have Marth/Cloud with huge swords. G&W doesn't have bad frame data but he's no Sheik or Fox. Pretty much anything he's good at another top character is much better at. G&W also struggles to finish stocks, which sucks for a paper weight, and his Chef projectile is almost as bad as Din's. IDK what the designers were thinking.
You can't sleep on him of course. In the right hands his weaving and combos are scary. You sleep on paper and you'll get paper cuts.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

sagas for characters with little to no rep is unsurprisingly an awful idea.
i'd like to see more general sagas like Pokemon and FE.

Ike saga please
maybe Leo will show off how good he really is

 

[|RK|]

WaDi resets the bracket against CaptainZack 3-0 and then takes the tournament 3-1. His play was dominant - I understand why people say he has the best neutral of the Mewtwo players. Also, MVP goes to Shadow Ball. Ledge trap? Check. Landing trap? Check. Forced unsafe approaches? Check.

WaDi also beat Pink 3-0, so this MU looks almost solved as far as he's concerned.

EDIT: Also, I can't forget - WaDi had EXCEPTIONAL disadvantage play. Zack never scared him at the ledge, meanwhile he had Zack shook in that position.

 

[TDK]

Glitch 3 (158 Entrants) (MD/VA)

1st: WaDi
2nd: Captain Zack
3rd: DarkShad
4th: Pink Fresh
5th: 6WX
5th: Mr. E (His Marth took 1 game the whole tournament)
7th: ZD
7th: Ling Ling
9th: Remzi
9th: Craftis
9th: Pugwest
9th: JeBB
13th: Promaelia
13th: UtopianRay
13th: Tension
13th: Mekos

TGL Monthly 15 (Florida) (99 Entrants)

1st: ESAM
2nd: Dath
3rd: Myran
4th: Wormynugget
5th: DJ Jack
5th: ~MuteAce~
7th: Blank
7th: Duffo

GUMS 15 (Massachussets) (119 Entrants)

1st: Marss
2nd: Light
3rd: Koolaid
4th: Tony Pajamas
5th: Raffi-X
5th: Kogarasuma
7th: Tsage
7th: Kuma

 

[Das Koopa]

Gungnir 2-1 Earth

 

[RonNewcomb]

IMO fits where he currently is. On the plus side he has good combos from throw, a top tier dash attack, a Usmash that can tank other attacks like a counter due to the 'helmet' invulnerability and a great offstage game.
The down sides are he's very light and gets outclassed by top tiers. He has decent disjoint on several attacks like Bair but then you have Marth/Cloud with huge swords. G&W doesn't have bad frame data but he's no Sheik or Fox. Pretty much anything he's good at another top character is much better at. G&W also struggles to finish stocks, which sucks for a paper weight, and his Chef projectile is almost as bad as Din's. IDK what the designers were thinking.
You can't sleep on him of course. In the right hands his weaving and combos are scary. You sleep on paper and you'll get paper cuts.

But to put it another way, he has more disjoint than Sheik or Fox, faster frame data than Marth or Cloud, and has Mario's lagless smash attacks. Chef is good at getting in a grab or gimping, depending on MU. His offstage edgeguarding is top notch.

GaW doesn't suck, but he must know his MUs well cause his game plan varies widely.

 

[Rizen]

But to put it another way, he has more disjoint than Sheik or Fox, faster frame data than Marth or Cloud, and has Mario's lagless smash attacks. Chef is good at getting in a grab or gimping, depending on MU. His offstage edgeguarding is top notch.

GaW doesn't suck, but he must know his MUs well cause his game plan varies widely.

He has more disjoint than Fox, yes, but 's frame data isn't that great. Marcina's frame data is often faster or about equal to G&W's. Aside from Usmash, G&W's smashes aren't good due to high startup and having to sweetspot Fsmash.
IMO Chef is generally a bad projectile. It doesn't go far enough to be a long range pressure tool but at close range many characters can dash under it. It can be good for messing with variable recoveries that can go sideways or up, like Fox's sideB/upB so it's not completely useless.

I agree his edge guarding's great. Disjointed long lasting aerials, great air weaving, and an upB that's invulnerable part way up and you can attack and jump out of, if you kept your 2nd jump.

He doesn't suck but I can't see him any higher than the tier he's in.

 

[Kofu]

GaW's throw combos are actually insanely good, he has a great grab and throw.

But, why would you get grabbed? His grab sucks, and he doesn't have rising aerials that scare me with their damage/hitbox/power/ combo ability.

Its kinda like Wario, the mixup doesn't work if you just keep him out of the range he wants to do it in. In that, you risk getting dash attacked... but so what?

Again, the top tiers just demolish you for that kind of weakness.

GaW jumps. Shiek has needles charged. Really, the Shiek has to make a mistake or get read to not come out on top, either hitting the landing with needles or shielding his aerials and punishing.

His aerials have interesting qualities, but they don't do what you want them to do. Though my GaW brawl instincts make me want to space with turtle, and that honestly works decently enough that I wonder why I NEVER see it from GaW on stream.

Nair is actually great, but again, keeping him from that range is key and then it doesn't break your zone really.

Hey, does his uair windbox effect still refresh his moves?

17% NAir and 16% UAir don't scare you?

Actually, that's fair, since his kill options are kinda limited, and giving you damage simply makes it easier to kill him by a certain percent.

I find spaced BAirs to be nice as well. I actually can't answer the question of UAir's windbox refreshing his moves, but I'm curious about it too.

--------------

Game & Watch is a pretty mediocre character. There's no particular area where he's especially weak aside from his weight, but for the most part his strengths (or best moves) aren't quite enough to compensate. I don't feel like he gets destroyed by very many characters; most top/high tier MUs are only slightly losing, IMO. His worst MUs seem to be Diddy and Sheik, though that could be inexperience on my part. Corrin, Rosalina, Toon Link, and Sonic are also petty bad.

He does fairly well against Mario, Pikachu, and Ness, three characters that he usually outranges and beats with disjoints (and, in Ness's case, can really mess with his recovery). I'd also stick Ryu in that group. A combination of disjoints and effective multi-hit aerials give him some really nice tools to mess with Ryu's gameplan. I actually caused a local Ryu player to opt not to use him the next time we played in bracket (even though he won the first set). Additionally, if I read his MU chart correctly, Fatality places Game & Watch as a slight disadvantage for Falcon. I'm curious who he's played against to give him that impression.

There are a lot of small tweaks I'd make to his moves to make him a better character; this isn't the place for that, but I'll mention what I feel are two big ones. UAir linking properly (the first hit bizarrely has knockback scaling) and FAir being a touch stronger (13% strong instead of 11.5%) would go a decent way towards fixing his killing issues. I get so disappointed when I land DThrow to UAir at kill percents only for the opponent to pop out. And FAir being weak is just something I'm used to at this point; it's really sad when it won't kill a target from center stage around 150%.

USmash is legit busted but it has counterplay and is better used as a counterattack for poorly-spaced aerials (or as a close-quarters way to stuff jabs). It's his most reliable kill option but if the opponent doesn't have to get super close to Game & Watch in neutral its effectiveness is limited as its hitbox is very small.

His lingering disjoints, something that should be his best attribute, aren't what they used to be. A (seemingly?) smaller model from Brawl combined with his hurtbox extending on a lot of attacks means that the actual amount of disjoint is less than you might expect. Almost impeccable spacing is required to detonate a Bob-omb with FSmash (I think it's his longest-ranged normal) so it doesn't blow you up as well. DTilt doesn't even fit the manhole.

 

[Das Koopa]

Umebura Japan Major (May 6th-7th) (Kanto) (478 Entrants) (Category 4)
1st: ECHO FOX MVG | MKLeo ,
2nd: KEN
3rd: Choco (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
4th: SHI-G | 9B
5th: Kirihara
5th: DNG | Nietono
7th: takera (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
7th: DNG | Kameme ,
9th: 2GG | komorikiri ,
9th: LG | Abadango ,
9th: Pichi (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
9th: Edge , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
13th: Ranai
13th: Rizeasu , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
13th: T
13th: Chanshu (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th: FILIP
17th: Gungnir (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th: Kisha (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th: Paru (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th: Raito
17th: Jan
17th: Repo (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th: Eim (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th: Masha (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th: Sukekokko (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th: HIKARU
25th: Jill (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th: Tosshi (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th: KaPMK (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th: Earth ,
25th: Lea (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)

 

[FeelMeUp]

sheik seems to be on the rise despite VoiD underperforming lately.

 

[MistressRemilia]

17% NAir and 16% UAir don't scare you?

Actually, that's fair, since his kill options are kinda limited, and giving you damage simply makes it easier to kill him by a certain percent.

I find spaced BAirs to be nice as well. I actually can't answer the question of UAir's windbox refreshing his moves, but I'm curious about it too.

--------------

Game & Watch is a pretty mediocre character. There's no particular area where he's especially weak aside from his weight, but for the most part his strengths (or best moves) aren't quite enough to compensate. I don't feel like he gets destroyed by very many characters; most top/high tier MUs are only slightly losing, IMO. His worst MUs seem to be Diddy and Sheik, though that could be inexperience on my part. Corrin, Rosalina, Toon Link, and Sonic are also petty bad.

He does fairly well against Mario, Pikachu, and Ness, three characters that he usually outranges and beats with disjoints (and, in Ness's case, can really mess with his recovery). I'd also stick Ryu in that group. A combination of disjoints and effective multi-hit aerials give him some really nice tools to mess with Ryu's gameplan. I actually caused a local Ryu player to opt not to use him the next time we played in bracket (even though he won the first set). Additionally, if I read his MU chart correctly, Fatality places Game & Watch as a slight disadvantage for Falcon. I'm curious who he's played against to give him that impression.

There are a lot of small tweaks I'd make to his moves to make him a better character; this isn't the place for that, but I'll mention what I feel are two big ones. UAir linking properly (the first hit bizarrely has knockback scaling) and FAir being a touch stronger (13% strong instead of 11.5%) would go a decent way towards fixing his killing issues. I get so disappointed when I land DThrow to UAir at kill percents only for the opponent to pop out. And FAir being weak is just something I'm used to at this point; it's really sad when it won't kill a target from center stage around 150%.

USmash is legit busted but it has counterplay and is better used as a counterattack for poorly-spaced aerials (or as a close-quarters way to stuff jabs). It's his most reliable kill option but if the opponent doesn't have to get super close to Game & Watch in neutral its effectiveness is limited as its hitbox is very small.

His lingering disjoints, something that should be his best attribute, aren't what they used to be. A (seemingly?) smaller model from Brawl combined with his hurtbox extending on a lot of attacks means that the actual amount of disjoint is less than you might expect. Almost impeccable spacing is required to detonate a Bob-omb with FSmash (I think it's his longest-ranged normal) so it doesn't blow you up as well. DTilt doesn't even fit the manhole.

I'm legitimately surprised that you haven't talked about the dangerosity of Neutral Air any further. That move's actually pretty busted, no matter how you look at it. Its main advantage is that, at low to mid%, it's a combo starter to small, but fairly strong combos since the move combos into itself, into UpB, and a fair amount of mixups depending on the situation. With that in mind, i believe the metagame of Game&Watch should be aiming towards a stronger implementation of these tools in the neutral game, which can truly push people into shielding a bit more vs G&W, which is something we want for the aforementionned & known reason that we do have pretty busted combos off of it. You may also be aware that at low%, UpSmash is also a combo starter to such things as UpSmash -> Nair -> Nair -> UpB, for a clean 50% ( roughly ) on a majority of the cast.

I believe the current issue with the G&W metagame is that his playerbase is kind of weak in general, and hasn't shown a neutral game that has been rather predictable, and very linear. Ideally, a good G&W would take a fair amount of bold decisions, perhaps negative trades against the opponent to attempt and setup combos with something other than our grab, because our combo starters are deeper than that. Landing UpAir, UpTilt, Landing Nair, Nair in general can all act as combo starters in a closer range that could make our close up game a little bit deeper. Mix that in with the usual ground game with his amazing foxtrot, great jab, with some smashes for baiting purposes ( They're all underrated for that, they're more practical than their frame data suggest ) Our safety & ability to crossup will also definitly be in our favor. However, that still leaves us prone to charas with stronger OoS, and against the safest, most defensive characters, this has to be done very carefully.

On to matchups, I as well as a fair amount of G&W mains believe we actually do very decent against Sheik. Songn even thinks we win this matchup. I'm surprised you haven't mentionned Sonic, which i consider to be by a fair amount G&W's worst matchup. After this matchup, Diddy & Rosalina come in mind. On to fairly good matchups, i would like to mention that Meta Knight & Mewtwo have been leaning towards even at best, with wins of Regi over Tyrant & Gigabasu over Abadango in mind. On to high tiers, Ryu, Luigi, Lucario & Villager are all fairly good for the 2D Black piece of paper.

Overall, much like Yoshi ( in my opinion ) , there's a lot left to explore for G&W players to deepen their neutral game & make themselves less predictable in the ways of being threatening to the opponent. With that in mind, i could see G&W easily rising up to Mid Tier, with a weakness to the characters with some of the best defensive tools, whether it's within their neutral, or with OoS. His current worst matchups, as well as characters like Bowser will turn out to be winnable but difficult.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

If something is under the radar no one cares

Gee, that's kinda savage.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Gungnir 2-1 Earth

Get wrecked you average ****ing character

 

[Ulevo]

MistressRemilia G&W vs Meta Knight is not even. I would write a detailed explanation as to why, but Leo's prior sets versus Regi demonstrate it perfectly. Maybe if Regi had wins over Ito I would say a case could be made but Tyrant is not exactly known for abusing the character properly.

 

[PJB]

Man, it's awesome to see that Leo's still got it with MK. To get 3-0'd in winners by KEN who looked borderline unhittable and then comeback with the MK and take the tourney is tremendous

 

[Rizen]

MistressRemilia G&W vs Meta Knight is not even. I would write a detailed explanation as to why, but Leo's prior sets versus Regi demonstrate it perfectly. Maybe if Regi had wins over Ito I would say a case could be made but Tyrant is not exactly known for abusing the character properly.

*Looks up. Yeah it's one of those MUs that looks even until MK does MK things ie ladder combo kills you.

 

[chaos11011]

GUMS 15 (Tristate?) (119 Entrants)

1st: Marss
2nd: Light
3rd: Koolaid
4th: Tony Pajamas
5th: Raffi-X
5th: Kogarasuma
7th: Tsage
7th: Kuma

GUMS was in New England/Massachusetts

 

[TDK]

13th: Rizeasu , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)

For what it's worth, for his one streamed match he used , though he did lose with both of them.

 

[Illusion.]

Texas Showdown 2017 (52 Entrants) (Texas)

1st: GrimTurtle
2nd: Papa Wall
3rd: ThisGuy
4th: Red9

Red9 plays , though he did used to main Link.

 

[Kofu]

I'm legitimately surprised that you haven't talked about the dangerosity of Neutral Air any further. That move's actually pretty busted, no matter how you look at it. Its main advantage is that, at low to mid%, it's a combo starter to small, but fairly strong combos since the move combos into itself, into UpB, and a fair amount of mixups depending on the situation. With that in mind, i believe the metagame of Game&Watch should be aiming towards a stronger implementation of these tools in the neutral game, which can truly push people into shielding a bit more vs G&W, which is something we want for the aforementionned & known reason that we do have pretty busted combos off of it. You may also be aware that at low%, UpSmash is also a combo starter to such things as UpSmash -> Nair -> Nair -> UpB, for a clean 50% ( roughly ) on a majority of the cast.

I believe the current issue with the G&W metagame is that his playerbase is kind of weak in general, and hasn't shown a neutral game that has been rather predictable, and very linear. Ideally, a good G&W would take a fair amount of bold decisions, perhaps negative trades against the opponent to attempt and setup combos with something other than our grab, because our combo starters are deeper than that. Landing UpAir, UpTilt, Landing Nair, Nair in general can all act as combo starters in a closer range that could make our close up game a little bit deeper. Mix that in with the usual ground game with his amazing foxtrot, great jab, with some smashes for baiting purposes ( They're all underrated for that, they're more practical than their frame data suggest ) Our safety & ability to crossup will also definitly be in our favor. However, that still leaves us prone to charas with stronger OoS, and against the safest, most defensive characters, this has to be done very carefully.

On to matchups, I as well as a fair amount of G&W mains believe we actually do very decent against Sheik. Songn even thinks we win this matchup. I'm surprised you haven't mentionned Sonic, which i consider to be by a fair amount G&W's worst matchup. After this matchup, Diddy & Rosalina come in mind. On to fairly good matchups, i would like to mention that Meta Knight & Mewtwo have been leaning towards even at best, with wins of Regi over Tyrant & Gigabasu over Abadango in mind. On to high tiers, Ryu, Luigi, Lucario & Villager are all fairly good for the 2D Black piece of paper.

Overall, much like Yoshi ( in my opinion ) , there's a lot left to explore for G&W players to deepen their neutral game & make themselves less predictable in the ways of being threatening to the opponent. With that in mind, i could see G&W easily rising up to Mid Tier, with a weakness to the characters with some of the best defensive tools, whether it's within their neutral, or with OoS. His current worst matchups, as well as characters like Bowser will turn out to be winnable but difficult.

I probably don't use NAir enough, honestly. It does have good use as a damage racker and combo extender and can set up for a smash attack if interrupted by landing.

I don't think Songn has done anything notable in a long time so I'm not really inclined to buy his opinion on the Sheik MU. That said, I'm willing to accept it as a better MU than I give it credit for. I actually did mention Sonic but haven't found him especially difficult (no more than in general, anyway).

 

[Vyrnx]

sheik seems to be on the rise despite VoiD underperforming lately.

I was gonna say the same thing. Kameme's Sheik is extremely legit and seems to have given him a way to beat a larger number of top players, Nietono has switched back to Sheik and found greater success, and Mr. R of course has been getting excellent results.

Even with Void underperforming, I feel like he's developed a lot of very strong ways to play MUs, at least Bayo and Marth. There's definitely been a Sheik resurgence that's gone somewhat unnoticed.

It's funny how characters like Rosa, ZSS, and Sheik that have been at some point the subject of "falling off" have all performed very well at every major tournament of the last five months, with Rosa winning or placing top 8 at almost all majors, ZSS placing top 8 at almost all majors, Sheik placing top 8 or performing very well at most majors.

It's basically always a waste of time to read posts about which top tier is supposedly falling off because the people posting don't understand how strong the attributes that made the character top tier in the first place really are. The narrative will probably become Fox and Sonic falling off, Fox because his disadvantage is supposedly so bad despite Larry getting off the ledge more easily than any other player except possibly Salem or Zack, Sonic because his neutral is supposedly "lackluster" despite having easily among the best neutrals in the game, etc.

The idea of Sheik in particular falling off is probably the most ridiculous example and there won't ever be a good justification.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I was gonna say the same thing. Kameme's Sheik is extremely legit and seems to have given him a way to beat a larger number of top players, Nietono has switched back to Sheik and found greater success, and Mr. R of course has been getting excellent results.

Even with Void underperforming, I feel like he's developed a lot of very strong ways to play MUs, at least Bayo and Marth. There's definitely been a Sheik resurgence that's gone somewhat unnoticed.

It's funny how characters like Rosa, ZSS, and Sheik that have been at some point the subject of "falling off" have all performed very well at every major tournament of the last five months, with Rosa winning or placing top 8 at almost all majors, ZSS placing top 8 at almost all majors, Sheik placing top 8 or performing very well at most majors.

It's basically always a waste of time to read posts about which top tier is supposedly falling off because the people posting don't understand how strong the attributes that made the character top tier in the first place really are. The narrative will probably become Fox and Sonic falling off, Fox because his disadvantage is supposedly so bad despite Larry getting off the ledge more easily than any other player except possibly Salem or Zack, Sonic because his neutral is supposedly "lackluster" despite having easily among the best neutrals in the game, etc.

The idea of Sheik in particular falling off is probably the most ridiculous example and there won't ever be a good justification.

Yet after the nerfs, Sheik has yet to win a mayor tournament, all because of one player that doesn't play her anymore. Closest she has gotten is DreamHack Austin 2017 at 2nd and EVO 2016 at 4th.

 

[OverTime]

This is VoiD underperforming

•CLG | VoiD A & S Tier Ranked Tournaments

3rd Genesis Saga

Spoiler: Losses

ZeRo (1st)
Komorikiri (2nd)

9th Genesis 4

Spoiler: Losses

Ally (2nd)
ZeRo (3rd)

7th Midwest Mayhem Saga

Spoiler: Losses

Tweek (2nd)
Ned (4th)

9th Frostbite

Spoiler: Losses

Tsu (2nd)
Dabuz (4th)

N/A Frame Perfect Series 2
33rd Civil War

Spoiler: Losses

Hikaru (7th)
ANTi (25th)

7th CEO Dreamland

Spoiler: Losses

ESAM (5th)
Samsora (5th)

5th Dreamhack Austin

Spoiler: Losses

MKLeo (2nd)
Larry Lurr (5th)

N/A Umebura Japan Major

I wish I could fall off as hard as VoiD has.
I wouldn't even say any of those are bad losses. At worst you could say he has a Cloud problem. Which is a bad thing to have.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

This is VoiD underperforming

•CLG | VoiD A & S Tier Ranked Tournaments

3rd Genesis Saga

Spoiler: Losses

ZeRo (1st)
Komorikiri (2nd)

9th Genesis 4

Spoiler: Losses

Ally (2nd)
ZeRo (3rd)

7th Midwest Mayhem Saga

Spoiler: Losses

Tweek (2nd)
Ned (4th)

9th Frostbite

Spoiler: Losses

Tsu (2nd)
Dabuz (4th)

N/A Frame Perfect Series 2
33rd Civil War

Spoiler: Losses

Hikaru (7th)
ANTi (25th)

7th CEO Dreamland

Spoiler: Losses

ESAM (5th)
Samsora (5th)

5th Dreamhack Austin

Spoiler: Losses

MKLeo (2nd)
Larry Lurr (5th)

N/A Umebura Japan Major

I wish I could fall off as hard as VoiD has.
I wouldn't even say any of those are bad losses. At worst you could say he has a Cloud problem. Which is a bad thing to have.

I fail to see how this is underperforming aside from Civil War.

Yet after the nerfs, Sheik has yet to win a mayor tournament

That is, unless you count BEAST tournaments (namely BEAST 7).

 

[Nobie]

1) Gungnir putting in the work! This might be about the level that Ganondorf can achieve (17th at a major/premier), and whether that's great or sad is in the eye of the beholder.
2) Gungnir taking down Kept and getting 2-0'd by Ranai kind of shows that there's a significant gap between Ranai and other Villagers.
3) When do we get to see a Riseazu Iron Man Match? I'm serious, why is this not like a smash.gg tier goal? Maybe a Riseazu vs. Anti showcase.