Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

ARGHETH · May 5, 2017

Laken64 said:
Im pretty sure both are in corrin's favor ( villy might be even idk) peach and villy struggle with disjoints as a whole and samsora and aarvark have lost against Corrin in the past so theres that.

Notable Peach mains seem to agree that it's even, while Villagers put it in Corrin's favor.

NINTENDO Galaxy · May 5, 2017

Nah · May 5, 2017

Illuminose said:
i don't like the implication that corrin is one-dimensional, a one-trick pony with pin. this is just blatantly untrue; corrin has a number of effective options and pin is far from the only thing you have to worry about and contend with when facing corrin in neutral. corrin is one of those characters that has a very complete set of tools to shut down all of your ways to get in on her. her neutral is essentially played through use of tricky movement and setups, which are so effective because, even if you know every gimmick, that doesn't mean there is a straight forward answer to it. you jump around in neutral, utilizing a combination of empty hops and spaced fair/nair/bair to condition shield. when you use full hop/double jump though, that's where the real tricks come in. corrin does a very good job at being able to threaten an attack without actually using it because of pin and her highly effective falling nair, which is hard to punish in most cases unless you are in shieldgrab range. this highly effective set of options is complemented by a fairly solid dtilt and jab, as well as dfs which is a decent projectile and absurd air dodge trap, fsmash for other ground game, and dsmash for dangerous oos punished. she can bait you into scenarios where you get hit extremely effectively because you think there's an opening, but then corrin still has the time to cover herself. a lot of the things corrin does are very safe and tricky, which makes the defensive standpoint to the matchup that people think is effective generally ill-advised. there's also this idea that corrin can't approach, something that is blatantly untrue and ignorant of how the character can exert positional pressure and utilize her offensive options.

another thing is that i don't think people realize how threatening of a character corrin is to fight. she kills sub 100 off ledge coverage (fsmash, pin, dfs) and generally has a lot of ways to catch you, especially if you ever air dodge because dfs bite is so strong and if you ever get caught by dfs because tipper pin kills so early. in general, especially because of pin but other strong options as well, corrin is very scary to fight and has her own share of jank. corrin can also get a lot of good damage off hits, especially with platform extensions, and can frame trap air dodges effectively because of nair. up air is also a ridiculous juggling tool, and you have bair/pin with range to catch people while they try to land. there's a lot to worry about while playing neutral because of random ko options and a ton of pressure in disadvantageous situations.

flaws people commonly cite (other than laming out corrin which i already addressed) include poor disadvantage state and mobility. for one, corrin's disadvantage state is far from bad. nair does a lot as a fairly quick option with a lot of coverage. it's the type of option that can force you to go for resets while comboing corrin, which reduces what you can do. it's especially effective because it is a very rewarding move to connect. dair also exists as a landing mixup. it's not perfect and a couple characters can still juggle you (basically just rosa and cloud), but landing vs most characters is not that hard. the ledge situations are a little odd in some ways, but having access to pin, jump->land with nair or dair, and ok ledge hop options makes it manageable. corrin gets ledge trapped, but not more than any average character in the cast for sure and certainly less than some of the characters considered top tier. people will also talk about recovery as a huge flaw, but anyone who has really played the matchup knows that gimping corrin is realistically hard. you have to be very precise because corrin's up b hitboxes are insanely good. her up b can be gimped for sure, but people act like every character can just get edgeguards on her like it's something consistent, which just is not true.

in terms of matchups, i think it's definitely worth noting that corrin's matchup spread is just better than most other ~11-20 characters on the tier list. at this point, diddy is only considered to have a slightly advantageous matchup by virtually every relevant corrin player. cloud is considered to be at a very slight advantage. sheik has a slight more relevant advantage, though it's still not huge, and bayo/fox also win. every other matchup is even or better, and every losing matchup is doable. corrin is commonly considered to beat mario, either go even with or beat sonic/rosa/mewtwo, and go even with marth/zss. the character's matchups vs many high tiers and mid tiers tend to be very solid.

the relatively low representation of corrin at top level atm tends to confuse people about corrin. there's SO much misinformation about this character, which is why when people see a top player rank corrin highly (because they have played with very good corrin players that show the character's best attributes) they don't understand it because they don't even know what good corrin looks like. watch earth, please. watch cosmos, ryuga too (though he's not quite as good as those two), yoc, frozen. leo's corrin that he used at the arena is also solid, as well as the japanese wifi player lc, and vivid. when people say things like 'poor/linear neutral', 'bad recovery', 'no landing options', 'loses to lame/campy play', and 'few good moves', i think it just speaks to not knowing the character.

i consider corrin an easy pick for top 15, could be top 10 in the future but definitely top 15. i really do not think there is an argument that 15 characters exist with better matchups than corrin to merit placing them above and dropping corrin lower.

I agree that Corrin is not a one trick pony (with that "one trick" being Dragon Lunge/Pin), and I agree that her disadvantage state isn't completely terrible (but calling it truly good is also a stretch). DunnoBro's right in that it's one of the better ones amongst the Fire Emblem characters really. Can't have the worst FE disadvantage state when Robin and Roy exist lol.

A lot of the rest of this though basically boils down to/reads a lot like the Corrin player outplaying the other player or the other player not knowing how to play the MU or is afraid of Corrin (and you literally say these things in the bolded bits), which are like.....not real reasons to support a character's viability/tier placement.

Also not a fan of using an unproven/not backed up MU chart to support arguments either. Nor talking about the character's advantage state; the majority of the cast has pretty good advantage states really, so Corrin having a good one isn't really a huge selling point.

Bowserboy3 said:
The UK has updated (tbh I think this is the first true iteration) the England PR.

Here it is for those interested:

View attachment 128859

I am ashamed to be based in an area of the UK with 3 top Sonics kappa

no reason to feel ashamed of 3 Sonics on the PR imo

It's nice to see Matsushi on it though

Das Koopa · May 5, 2017

Here's the Umebura Japan Major topic: https://smashboards.com/threads/umebura-japan-major-discussion.447589/

MKLeo

Mew2King

KEN

komorikiri

Kameme

9B

Ranai

Abadango

Kirihara

HIKARU

Earth

Choco

tsu

Taiheita

T

Nietono

Pichi

Atelier

Shogun

Rizeasu

Fuwa

Umeki

RAIN

hayato.

Kuro

Kisha

FILIP

Masashi

Chanshu

Ri-ma

OCEAN

Yuzu

Raito

Suinoko

Kept

Edge

Nyanko

Kare~

taranito

Mangalitza

Brood

Some

Ryuji

shky

Nasubi

Es

Mattun

Ginko

Eim

Songn

Lea

Jill

Lickey

Mao

Paru

Masha

bAhuto

Yui

YOC

Tsu~

Jan

Gackt

KaPMK

Tosshi

Shu

Ke-ya

Lv. 1

Kakera

TDK · May 6, 2017

The godfather of Ganondorf himself, Gungnir, makes top 96 Winners side with Solo

, defeating Yuzu

bt.yamato

, and Kept

.

Only in Japan.

EDIT: IcyMist

wins Naifu Wars: World War, and will be attending 2GGC: Nairo Saga later this year.

Kofu · May 6, 2017

I've never felt like the Ganon/Villager MU was hopeless for Ganon at all. He has enough powerful tools to burst through slingshots, and dash attack/wizkick do a good job of getting around Lloid. Ganon's edgeguarding is scary for Villager too (though this goes both ways).

DunnoBro · May 6, 2017

Corrin's advantage state is only notable in regards to ledgeplay. Boasting extreme kill power even in the lower percents, and very consistent kill power at higher percents. Honestly I think she might be the best ledgeplay character overall.

She's pretty obviously better than diddy or sheik on the ledge to me, and I say this knowing full well most won't agree. Probably the best in the game? Either her or Bowser.

That's why I think there's potential for her, issue is she doesn't win neutral for free like said sheik or diddy.

Nu~ · May 6, 2017

DunnoBro said:
Corrin's advantage state is only notable in regards to ledgeplay. Boasting extreme kill power even in the lower percents, and very consistent kill power at higher percents. Honestly I think she might be the best ledgeplay character overall.

She's pretty obviously better than diddy or sheik on the ledge to me, and I say this knowing full well most won't agree. Probably the best in the game? Either her or Bowser.

That's why I think there's potential for her, issue is she doesn't win neutral for free like said sheik or diddy.

Well I'd also say her combo potential out of starters such as dtilt, nair, DFS, and falling uair at low %s is pretty damn notable.

I remember seeing a Corrin combo showcase by ryuga where footstool combos out of falling nair where implemented. We also can't forget her DFS lock on fastfalers

Rizen · May 6, 2017

I generally don't think of SSB4 having hopeless MUs but that brings up an interesting topic: What +/-4 MUs exist, if any? Even things like Ganon vs Sheik can be won by a well placed pivot Ftilt, RAR bair etc from the former. The only MUs I can think of are possibly Jiggly vs Cloud, Mac'n'Pac and Ganon vs Bayo. IDK if those are as bad as -4s or merely -3s.

Nu~ · May 6, 2017

Rizen said:
I generally don't think of SSB4 having hopeless MUs but that brings up an interesting topic: What +/-4 MUs exist, if any? Even things like Ganon vs Sheik can be won by a well placed pivot Ftilt, RAR bair etc from the former. The only MUs I can think of are possibly Jiggly vs Cloud, Mac'n'Pac and Ganon vs Bayo. IDK if those are as bad as -4s or merely -3s.

Vs

Even with the most surface level analysis, this MU is horrid lol.

Nu~ · May 6, 2017

Alright, I retract my incorrect statements (Corrin is linear, has a terrible disadvantage, etc.)

I was misinformed, but I love to learn new things so I'm happy I did.
Primarily, I wanted an explanation for @Illuminose's statements.

One thing I wanted to talk about is this dude ->

Hyper (High level Roy main from Georgia) has been dominating his region lately, taking names such as ScAtt and Fatality, and I'm curious as to what this can say about Roy's future.

From what I see in Hyper's games, he really knows how to abuse Roy's mobility options to make Roy's commonly perceived, "subpar" nuetral both safe and highly pressure focused.

His punish game is devastating as well

Emblem Lord · May 6, 2017

Roy is Marth with a mix of CF. So we have great mobility, punishes, nice combos and damn good neutral. But we also have poor disadvantage and a poor recovery.

I have always felt Roy was solid and that he loses mainly due to the recklessness if his player base.

He has burst zone threat, and that is HUGE in this game. He has a sword and the buttons to win footsies even vs several top tiers. But man when he actually gets hit, things get really ugly.

NINTENDO Galaxy · May 6, 2017

Reumina

beat Umeki

2-0. Taiheita

and Agehasama

made it to Top 96.

Ark of Silence101 · May 6, 2017

Nu~ said:
Alright, I retract my incorrect statements (Corrin is linear, has a terrible disadvantage, etc.)

I was misinformed, but I love to learn new things so I'm happy I did.
Primarily, I wanted an explanation for @Illuminose's statements.

One thing I wanted to talk about is this dude ->

Hyper (High level Roy main from Georgia) has been dominating his region lately, taking names such as ScAtt and Fatality, and I'm curious as to what this can say about Roy's future.

From what I see in Hyper's games, he really knows how to abuse Roy's mobility options to make Roy's commonly perceived, "subpar" nuetral both safe and highly pressure focused.

His punish game is devastating as well

CloudY, Mexico's best

player who co-mains him with

, has gotten his visa approved and he said that if he gets it on time, he'll come alongside Javi

to Greninja Saga, so perhaps we can look forwards to more than just Hyper.

|RK| · May 6, 2017

Rizen said:
I generally don't think of SSB4 having hopeless MUs but that brings up an interesting topic: What +/-4 MUs exist, if any? Even things like Ganon vs Sheik can be won by a well placed pivot Ftilt, RAR bair etc from the former. The only MUs I can think of are possibly Jiggly vs Cloud, Mac'n'Pac and Ganon vs Bayo. IDK if those are as bad as -4s or merely -3s.

Depends on what those numbers mean. If -1 correlates to 45:55, then -4 is only 30:70. And I imagine there are quite a few of those. Ganon vs Bayo is possibly worse than -4, even. Would you expect Salem to lose any sets vs a Ganondorf on his level?

YerTheBestAROUND · May 6, 2017

Nu~ said:
Villager covers landings with lloid while Uair beats out dair and frame traps air dodges with its long duration.

Shouldn't Marth also make it incredibly hard to land with his large, sweeping aerials and utilt to trap? Corrin has trouble drifting away and aggressive options can be baited and countered.

Marth has actual end lag on his attacks and isn't super fast. DI his swings somewhere so you don't have to try and drift around the swings and mix up your landings with air dodges, nair, dair, or counter and Corrin will easily find herself back on the ground.

If your game plan going into a set against Corrin is to juggle her, then pick Rosa, Cloud, Fox, ZSS, or Falcon. They're you're best bet. Otherwise you should probably just be trying to keep them on the sides of the level and keep them on the ledge so you can actually exploit her most consistent weaknesses.

Skeeter Mania · May 6, 2017

I'm mixed on this, but I get the feeling that

±1 means 45:55 or 40:60
±2 means 35:65 or 30:70
±3 means 25:75 or 20:80
±4 means more or less un(win/lose)able
0 means 50:50

By this metric, I don't think any MU is -4 (the closest is probably Ganon/Bayo).

Frihetsanka · May 6, 2017

|RK| said:
Depends on what those numbers mean. If -1 correlates to 45:55, then -4 is only 30:70. And I imagine there are quite a few of those. Ganon vs Bayo is possibly worse than -4, even. Would you expect Salem to lose any sets vs a Ganondorf on his level?

From the Melee and Brawl MU charts:
-4: (close to) Unwinnable
-3: Large disadvantage
-2: Disadvantage
-1: Small disadvantage

Something else worth noting: People tend to underestimate how hard it is to win a 40:60 MU. They might think that they have a 40% chance to win, and they do... in a best of 1. In a best of 3, their chance of winning drops to 35.2%. In a best of 5, it drops to 31.7%. This is pretty significant. A 30:70 MU is pretty terrible, with a 21.6% chance of winning in a best of 3 and a 16.3% chance of winning in a best of 5.

Oh, and a 55:45 MU might seem close, but the one with the slight advantage actually wins around 57.5% of the time in a best of 3 and 59.3% in a best of 5.

If you're interested in the math behind this, see this: http://www.mathgoespop.com/2011/10/playoff-probabilities.html

MUs also assume that the players are of equal skill. Salem is a significantly better player than the best Ganondorf, which further increases his chances of winning.

Skeeter Mania · May 6, 2017

Frihetsanka said:
People tend to underestimate how hard it is to win a 40:60 MU.

I find this debateable. Most MU charts I've seen appear to overestimate the difficulty of such a ratio to the point of calling them atrocious or near-unwindable.

On top of this, let's say there's a best of 3 set. You have to win this matchup twice in order to win. The sample space is {[W, W], [W, L, W], [W, L, L], [L, L], [L, W, W], [L, W, L]}. Assuming your chances to win are 40% (let's assume players are playing most optimally and are on equal skill levels), the probability of the first set possibility is 0.4 * 0.4 = 0.16 = 16%. The probability of the second and fifth sets are 0.4 * 0.6 * 0.4 = 0.096 = 9.6% * 2 = 19.2%. So the overall probability would be 16% + 19.2% = 35.2% chance of winning the whole set.

Frihetsanka · May 6, 2017

Skeeter Mania said:
I'm mixed on this, but I get the feeling that

±1 means 45:55 or 40:60

±2 means 35:65 or 30:70

±3 means 25:75 or 20:80

±4 means more or less un(win/lose)able

0 means 50:50

This seems a bit harsh. When I see -2 I don't really think "It means this character will lose around 80% of the time", I think "It'll be harder to win, but still doable". So like around 30% chance of winning, not 16.3-21.6%.

What I use is something like this:
+1: 55:45, 57.5%-59.3% chance of winning
+2: 60:40, 64.8%-68.3% chance of winning
+3: 65:35, more than 68.3% and less than 78.4% chance of winning
+4: 70:30, 78.4%-83-7% chance of winning
What does a 60:40 MU mean? Roughly this: Imagine that you have a 6-sided die. If you roll a 3, 4, 5, or a 6, you win. If you roll a 1 or a 2, you lose. In a 70:30 MU, you win on 2 as well and only lose on 1 (roughly speaking). 70:30 is pretty terrible.

Anyway, since Melee and Brawl consider -2 to be a Disadvantage and -3 to be a Large Disadvantage, it seems reasonable to consider -2 a 40:60 and -3 a 35:65 MU.

Rizen · May 6, 2017

|RK| said:
Depends on what those numbers mean. If -1 correlates to 45:55, then -4 is only 30:70. And I imagine there are quite a few of those. Ganon vs Bayo is possibly worse than -4, even. Would you expect Salem to lose any sets vs a Ganondorf on his level?

Frihetsanka said:
From the Melee and Brawl MU charts:
-4: (close to) Unwinnable
-3: Large disadvantage
-2: Disadvantage
-1: Small disadvantage

^This. You have a point about

vs

. Ganon gets shut down and punished hard in that MU. It probably is -4.

Emblem Lord said:
Roy is Marth with a mix of CF. So we have great mobility, punishes, nice combos and damn good neutral. But we also have poor disadvantage and a poor recovery.

I have always felt Roy was solid and that he loses mainly due to the recklessness if his player base.

He has burst zone threat, and that is HUGE in this game. He has a sword and the buttons to win footsies even vs several top tiers. But man when he actually gets hit, things get really ugly.

I can see

having some

and

traits but he's not nearly as good with either. Speaking from a zoning character perspective, CF is much better at approaching and staying on you and Marth/Lucina can threaten with zone breaking long slashes that are relatively safe. Roy is toned down and IMO has a much harder time getting in on a passive aggressive opponent. Roy has trouble forcing anything on Link for example because Link has generally better reach, unlike vs Marcina. It seems like while Roy has good speed, his mobility is rigid and not good for mixing it up.

IMO he's not getting out of low tier unless there's a meta-breaking AT discovered.

NINTENDO Galaxy · May 6, 2017

Here is a list of the Lucas mains at Glitch 3 today.

NINTENDO Galaxy said:
(Update #1, added Siderus)
(Update #2, removed Siderus, added Crits, and added in bracket links)

Mekos - Pool C5 https://smash.gg/tournament/glitch-3/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/127250/372691
G-Rain - Pool C7 https://smash.gg/tournament/glitch-3/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/127250/372693
JeBB - Pool D5 https://smash.gg/tournament/glitch-3/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/127250/372695
Crits - Pool C7 https://smash.gg/tournament/glitch-3/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/127250/372693
Main Bracket: https://smash.gg/tournament/glitch-3/events

If you are a lucas main yourself or know of any others attending Glitch 3, feel free to leave a comment so the list can be updated.

|RK| · May 6, 2017

Frihetsanka said:
From the Melee and Brawl MU charts:
-4: (close to) Unwinnable
-3: Large disadvantage
-2: Disadvantage
-1: Small disadvantage

Something else worth noting: People tend to underestimate how hard it is to win a 40:60 MU. They might think that they have a 40% chance to win, and they do... in a best of 1. In a best of 3, their chance of winning drops to 35.2%. In a best of 5, it drops to 31.7%. This is pretty significant. A 30:70 MU is pretty terrible, with a 21.6% chance of winning in a best of 3 and a 16.3% chance of winning in a best of 5.

Oh, and a 55:45 MU might seem close, but the one with the slight advantage actually wins around 57.5% of the time in a best of 3 and 59.3% in a best of 5.

If you're interested in the math behind this, see this: http://www.mathgoespop.com/2011/10/playoff-probabilities.html

MUs also assume that the players are of equal skill. Salem is a significantly better player than the best Ganondorf, which further increases his chances of winning.

I thought that in fighting games, it was the chance of winning a *set*, not a single game.

DunnoBro · May 6, 2017

NINTENDO Galaxy said:
Here is a list of the Lucas mains at Glitch 3 today.

Jebb goes Bayo lately IIRC

NINTENDO Galaxy · May 6, 2017

2 more tournies are happening today that I would like to share.

Texas Showdown (52 entrants) - Bracket: https://smash.gg/tournament/texas-showdown-2017/events/wii-u-singles/brackets?filter={"phaseId":128973} Stream: (Live now) https://twitch.tv/smashunited

Players that I would like to point out are Aarrow

, Papa Wall

, Slaps

, Megafox

, and DeluxeMenu

(since he got a hype moment vs Zinoto), and Twi

. There are more great Texas players here I did not name.

Just Roll with it 6.5 (Arcadian) Stream: (Live now) https://twitch.tv/zinfu There is a

here named Light.

Edit: I'm aware that Jebb has been using Bayonetta and Cloud recently, but I still consider him a lucas and he is still active in our server, I do not know if he will officially drop him or not.

Edit 2: Oh and this tournament is 3 stock, it seems like the Smash United local tried out 2 stock a while back and one of our tournies went 2 stock a little while ago too. A new upcoming got announced which brings the return of 3 stock, along with duck hunt, delfino island, and halberd as counterpicks. I like that our region (Houston) has not fully converted and caved into peer pressure yet.

Frihetsanka · May 6, 2017

|RK| said:
I thought that in fighting games, it was the chance of winning a *set*, not a single game.

If that is the case, then are we talking about best of 3 or best of 5? Perhaps it would be better to move away from 45:55/-1 and just use "Slight advantage/Advantage/Large Advantage" and such, or clarify since different people use different ratios.

Thinkaman · May 6, 2017

Thinkaman said:
Red Topics are explicitly banned. Any post that focuses on them is grounds for a spam infraction.

Matchup Ratio Meta Discussion

"What do/should matchup ratios mean, exactly?"

"What is the best way to express matchup ratios?"

"How precise can we really claim matchup ratios are?"

"What constitutes a 'counter'?"

This journey ends in nothingness; all of this has happened before, all of this will happen again.

adom4 · May 6, 2017

|RK| said:
Depends on what those numbers mean. If -1 correlates to 45:55, then -4 is only 30:70. And I imagine there are quite a few of those. Ganon vs Bayo is possibly worse than -4, even. Would you expect Salem to lose any sets vs a Ganondorf on his level?

Bayo isn't even his worst MU, -4 is like Ganon vs brawl IC/Sheik or some **** like that.

Skeeter Mania · May 6, 2017

NINTENDO Galaxy said:
2 more tournies are happening today that I would like to share.

Texas Showdown (52 entrants) - Bracket: https://smash.gg/tournament/texas-showdown-2017/events/wii-u-singles/brackets?filter={"phaseId":128973} Stream: (Live now) https://twitch.tv/smashunited

Players that I would like to point out are Aarrow, Papa Wall, Slaps, Megafox, and DeluxeMenu(since he got a hype moment vs Zinoto), and Twi. There are more great Texas players here I did not name.

If only there were more Texas majors than just Dreamhack...

TDK · May 6, 2017

Elexiao

has been fully funded for 2GGC: Greninja Saga.

Luco · May 6, 2017

NINTENDO Galaxy said:
Edit 2: Oh and this tournament is 3 stock, it seems like the Smash United local tried out 2 stock a while back and one of our tournies went 2 stock a little while ago too. A new upcoming got announced which brings the return of 3 stock, along with duck hunt, delfino island, and halberd as counterpicks. I like that our region (Houston) has not fully converted and caved into peer pressure yet.

Omg yaaaaaaaaaas, a tournament unafraid to test different stages in a crazy new meta.

Now if only more tournaments followed suit, and more players looked to blame themselves for the things that go wrong for them instead of forcing the game into 3 stages which *still* aren't jank-free.

On a different note, NAKAT is no longer coming to BAM due to a stomach virus, I'm guessing the same one a few other players got recently. He did say that he's heard about OHN in September and would like to come to that instead, so there's that to look forward to (and OHN is in my home state so I'll be excited for that). In the meantime BAM will still be a big showing for everyone on the Aus PR and more so definitely please watch. It's less than a week away now!!

Ziodyne 21 · May 6, 2017

I can see Aba going Bayo vs Gungir and then possibly Kameme in the top 96.

Gungir becasue..well come on.. the Bayo Gannon MU is like what...70-30 Bayo or even worse?...

I can see Aba also using Bayo vs Kameme if his Mewtwo dos not work as well as Aba wants.
Kameme has stuggled a lot vs Bayo in the past.

TDK · May 6, 2017

Texas Showdown 2017 (52 Entrants) (Texas)

1st: GrimTurtle

2nd: Papa Wall

3rd: ThisGuy

4th: Red9

Rizen · May 6, 2017

adom4 said:
Bayo isn't even his worst MU, -4 is like Ganon vs brawl IC/Sheik or some **** like that.

What would you say his worst MU(s) is?

adom4 · May 6, 2017

Rizen said:
What would you say his worst MU(s) is?

Sheik is the worst easily, at least vs Bayo i have something resembling a neutral, vs Sheik it's pretty much hard reads, rage jank & luck.
Also Ganon can somewhat plank Bayo because she can only hit him with D-smash when he's hanging on the ledge.

Nathan Richardson · May 6, 2017

Thinkaman said:
This journey ends in nothingness; all of this has happened before, all of this will happen again.

The problem with this is that ratios/matchups and 'counters' are synonymous with competitive discussion on all levels.
Some questions that fall into your red chart are similar but not limited to

'I'm having trouble with (character name) which character is able to handle this one?'
'Seems like (insert PGR player here) is switching from (character name) to (character name) is that because (secondary character name) has an easier MU with (insert disadvantage MU here) than (insert first character name here)'
'Is (character name) the worst MU for (insert character here) ratio wise? If so why?'
'Are these character MUs even ratio wise? What tools does (insert character name here) have?

These are constant consistent questions that are brought up everytime a major tourney rolls around. They won't go away anytime soon.

Frihetsanka · May 6, 2017

Nathan Richardson said:
The problem with this is that ratios/matchups and 'counters' are synonymous with competitive discussion on all levels.
Some questions that fall into your red chart are similar but not limited to

'I'm having trouble with (character name) which character is able to handle this one?'

'Seems like (insert PGR player here) is switching from (character name) to (character name) is that because (secondary character name) has an easier MU with (insert disadvantage MU here) than (insert first character name here)'

'Is (character name) the worst MU for (insert character here) ratio wise? If so why?'

'Are these character MUs even ratio wise? What tools does (insert character name here) have?

These are constant consistent questions that are brought up everytime a major tourney rolls around. They won't go away anytime soon.

None of these questions are matchup ratio meta related though. All of them would be fine. I also think discussing matchup ratio meta might be a good idea, though perhaps in a different thread. It's kind of annoying how different people use different definitions for +1, +2, etc. Anyway.

Regarding Corrin: I think Corrin is somewhere around #13-#17. She seems better than most characters in high tier, and I think all she really needs at this point is for one of her players to do really well at a major. Who will it be? Cosmos, Earth, Ryuga, MkLeo, or someone else?

Nathan Richardson · May 6, 2017

Anytime the term MU is brought up that's matchup related. regardless of if ratio is mentioned or not. However MU ratio discussion is specifically banned from this thread and cannot be used as thinkaman reminded us. Just because YOU have good reasons that you think it should be brought up does not mean the mods think so.

TDK · May 6, 2017

Oisiitofu

has been fully funded for 2GGC: Greninja Saga.

Krysco · May 6, 2017

I was sitting here thinking, if there's gonna be saga's focused around characters, there could easily be a problem of having saga's for certain characters. Good luck having a Mii saga or a Zelda saga or a Falco, Doc, Puff, Jr or WFT saga. There's the obvious counter argument of 'well those are all low tiers' but then there's the counter-counter of saying good luck with an Oli saga or G&W or Pit/Dark Pit, maybe Tink, Villager and Mega Man (can't even really count Kameme that much anymore for the last one seems he seems to have switched over to Sheik).

Then it dawned on me. People are talking about how there are Corrin mains but for one reason or another, they can't travel. And here we have all of these Greninja players among others getting funded to go to Greninja saga. What we need is a Corrin saga next. See if the character can justify being a high tier since some think he/she is just a mid tier with 1 overtuned move. If that can't work out then we at least need a Zard, Roy or Samus saga since those are the 3 low tiers that seem most likely to get out of said tier.

Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Master

The Free-est

Smash Dreamer

Smash Legend

Smash Dreamer

Smash Dreamer

The Legendary Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smash Marketer

Smash Journeyman

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Smash Legend

Smash Ace

Smash Marketer

The Free-est

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Moderator

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Legend

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Aeon Hero

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