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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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TDK

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vol·a·tile
ˈvälədl/
adjective
2. liable to change rapidly and unpredictably, especially for the worse.

I'd say this sums up Lucario, Wario, Little Mac, and a few others pretty well.
 

Ziodyne 21

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vol·a·tile
ˈvälədl/
adjective
2. liable to change rapidly and unpredictably, especially for the worse.

I'd say this sums up Lucario, Wario, Little Mac, and a few others pretty well.

Wario For sure. Looking at Gluttony;s matches Wario basically lives and dies off his waft combos and setups. Wario can take stocks disgustingly early with them but without his Waft Wario does seriously struggle to kill outisde of very high percent.

Wario can stock tank pretty well due to his high weight and above-average mobility and recovery, which helps bide time until Waft fully charges

As far as volatile chatacters are, here is my "Character Volatility tier list"

Extremely and likely always volatile. (Basically there entire gameplan revolves around their volatile moves/gimmicks)
:4lucario::4littlemac::4wario2::4ryu:

Pretty volatile
:4dk::4bowser::4bayonetta2::4zss::4cloud2:

Occasional or conditionally volatile
:4luigi::4marth::4falcon::4ganondorf:
 
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Thinkaman

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Any "volatile list" has to include :4jigglypuff:, who I have to remind everyone at least once a month has a f1 invincible move with 100 base knockback that can be done out of SH airdodge.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Any "volatile list" has to include :4jigglypuff:, who I have to remind everyone at least once a month has a f1 invincible move with 100 base knockback that can be done out of SH airdodge.

well Rest, just like everything else about the Puff, is broken shadow of a shell of effectiveness from Melee
 
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Thinkaman

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well Rest, just like everything else about the Puff, is broken shadow of a shell of effectiveness from Melee
"Samus has a really good uair and charge shot is an undeniable KO threat."

"Yeah but, she was stronger in Super Metroid."
 

my_T

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Extra's definitely still showing Australia his character can compete (#2 on our PR only fully released today), so from our perspective there's more than meets the eye. I think a lot has already been said here but it's worth noting that G&W's dash dance allows him to play non-committal in a really powerful way, and whilst his grab is bad if someone knows a way to make toot toot not real then *please* tell me because I'm 0-3 against that guy wew.

All this while every Lucas main swears it's a lopsided MU in our favour, and I can tell there's so much I could be doing to lame this character out, especially past his usual kill %s. I know he's not great, but more dangerous than the peers he's placed with? I could see that, playing defensive is a funny game sometimes and G&W's damage output is very real.

Incidentally the full Aus PR is out now but in keeping spirit with the thread, go check the PR thread if you're interested. :)
Who do you use against GnW?
 

Vyrnx

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Shad rest is good, but like other floaty characters with slow air dodges (i.e. Samus) it's a slow and very reactable/punishable option--40+ frames in Jiggs' case. Jiggs has to be careful when using it or catch the opponent doing something really laggy like a tether grab, but it's very rare for a Jiggs to get through 40 frames of shad to not find the opponent shielding at the very least.

I really think Rest's potential may lie in figuring out patterns of movement/hurtboxes from opponents and resting through them. A lot of effort instead seems to go into finding almost totally nonviable combos like last active frame of pound to fair to rest, dair to rest, etc. But in order for a Jiggs player to start resting through hurtboxes, they'd have to be really good, have strong knowledge of the roster's movesets, and they'd have to be willing to take a risk when playing.

There's a Jiggs player who's become one of the best players at my locals lately, and Rest really can be stupid. He's reacted to one of my Samus shad bairs and rested through it, and he's gotten to the point where he regularly rests through a Yoshi player's fairs. It's actually pretty amazing to watch.

He's also two framed a Sheik with Rest before x_x
 
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TDK

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Royal Flush Pools:
F5: Captain Zack :4bayonetta2: vs Zinoto :4diddy:
F6: ANTi :4sheik: :substitute: vs VoiD :4sheik: (ANTi'll probably use Mario)
F7: Ally :4mario: vs Pink Fresh :4bayonetta2:
F8: Marss :4zss: vs WaDi :4mewtwo:

G5: Mr. R :4sheik: :4cloud2: vs Tweek :4cloud2: :4dk:
G6: Dabuz :rosalina: vs SuperGirlKels :4sonic:
G7: Mr. E :4lucina: :4marth: vs Nairo :4zss:
G8: ZeRo :4diddy: :4lucina: vs Shoyo James :4diddy: :4luigi:

Potential for upsets: IcyMist :4samus: (F8), John Numbers :4wiifit: (G8)
 
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outfoxd

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Fairly big Weekly for Mi starting soon at twitch.tv/gooshigaming for those interested. 46 players including what looks like Day, Rayquaza and Zinoto and others from our PR.
 

Shaya

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Volatility in this game would imply we can't really understand why these things happen.
Or we do, but they're outside the control of the players involved.

Although match ups most definitely change based around the percents both characters are.

If Zero suit grabs you at 25%ish with high rage, she has just completed one of her win conditions.
It applies in certain match ups more than others, as some characters do have DI leeway to make it difficult, while chars like Sheik just die.

Sure, you can be aware of said win condition and play to avoid the grab - but that usually plays into her other win condition which is catching someone with an up air on the rise of a jump at around the same percent. Or you giving up stage control moving towards ledges where nearly everything can be trapped and get you killed semi-reactively.

In Brawl, I preferred to play against Meta Knight as Marth in contrast to match ups he 'won in' such as Snake because I had an amazing win condition, I just had to grab him at ko% anywhere on stage, or at any % (>25%, i.e. grab fthrow tipper fsmash at 0% or dthrow db up to 10%) near the ledge, and that was meta knight's stock. Sure MK would win more interactions on average, but he had to gimp me consistently to match the sheer potency of death by grab. Hence my entire game plan in that match up was avoiding getting into unavoidable death from early % nairs, grabs or platform canceled shuttle loops + dancing blade punish until a grab would seal it.

People tend to rate match ups around 'neutral' or 'who does the most damage', because the win condition of time out was so apparent in Brawl.
Stage control just means too much in Smash4 in contrast to Brawl (remember, being on a ledge in brawl with a % lead was not a good thing for the opposing person on stage).

P.S. Jigglypuff really has no such ability, she gets brawled out in this game.
Win conditions need to either involve grabs [or something ludicrously low risk, Ryu's tilts and Diddy dtilt tend to come to mind] and/or be backed up by other win conditions that synergise with each other.
Jigglypuff fortunately does not have this aptitude. SHAD Rest (etc) working out for her is quite hard to quantify for the sake of a match up ratio.
Lucario gaining sizable aura and then never having commit to anything bar aurasphere or bair (and grab 50/50s) due to their virtual safety that WILL DEFINITELY KILL YOU doesn't really seem like a volatile situation. Your character can either deal with him before this becomes apparent or you can circumvent aurasphere based neutral completely and your spacing deity is kind and generous as such that you "won't mess up".
 
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Vyrnx

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Having multiple paths that lead to kills at any given time is . There are extreme examples of characters like ZSS, Rosa, or Cloud that have a wide kill range with 3-5 moves (and more importantly, multiple positions, timings, usages of each move) that lead into kills at any given time, and each confirm has the potential to cover different options. Cloud's options in particular really come to life when the opponent is on the ledge.

But it's important to note that the same trait of having multiple kill options at any given time is shared by many other top tiers. Mario never struggles to get the kill with a combination of killing aerial, killing throw, and usmash.

Similarly, Sonic, a character who occasionally gets flak for "lackluster" killing potential isn't bad at killing by any means. Combining that speed with spindashes that can vary in type, timing, canceling, jumping, speed, etc + killing aerial + killing throw gives Sonic so many different paths that lead to death with very minimal commitment that he will never struggle to kill even if his average kill percent is later (building onto what |RK| |RK| said earlier, this is one of the reasons why average kill percents lose context and meaning). Sheik is in a somewhat similar position.
 
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TDK

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Concomics 2017 (182 Entrants) (Mexico)

1st: Regi :4gaw:
2nd: Verguis :4dk:
3rd: Chag :4bayonetta2:
4th: Laloba :4bayonetta2:
5th: Salva :rosalina:
5th: SBGera :4cloud2:
7th: Ez :4rob:
7th: Simi :4ness:
9th: Brian :4bowser:
9th: D.POLLO :4bowser:
9th: Serge :4charizard: :substitute:
9th: Reflet :4robinf:
13th: Woker the Hero :4fox:
13th: Qrog :substitute: (help please)
13th: FuerzaDON :4shulk:
13th: Cardy :4fox: :4cloud2:

Shoutouts to Reflet for being just about the only smasher ever that actually uses the character he's named after.
 

Yonder

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Concomics 2017 (182 Entrants) (Mexico)

1st: Regi :4gaw:
2nd: Verguis :4dk:
3rd: Chag :4bayonetta2:
4th: Laloba :4bayonetta2:
5th: Salva :rosalina:
5th: SBGera :4cloud2:
7th: Ez :4rob:
7th: Simi :4ness:
9th: Brian :4bowser:
9th: D.POLLO :4bowser:
9th: Serge :4charizard: :substitute:
9th: Reflet :4robinf:
13th: Woker the Hero :4fox:
13th: Qrog :substitute: (help please)
13th: FuerzaDON :4shulk:
13th: Cardy :4fox: :4cloud2:

Shoutouts to Reflet for being just about the only smasher ever that actually uses the character he's named after.
RoboLuigi uses Rob I think, Mew2King Cloud, Ninjalink in Brawl with Diddy...probably right.


Videos of Regi would be neat. He didn't even use his secondary Corrin so he must not have a problem with DK...a matchup i'd be scared of as Game and Watch with that need to approach all the time, lack of range, similar mobility, and dying to ding dong ridiculously early.
 

TDK

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RoboLuigi uses Rob I think, Mew2King Cloud, Ninjalink in Brawl with Diddy...probably right.
Don't forget Marth4Ever the :4shulk: :4diddy: :4dk: main, and Corrin the :4myfriends: main.


EDIT:

MSM 96 (87 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Mr. R :4cloud2: :4link:
2nd: Falln :rosalina: :4miigun:
3rd: Zenyou :4mario:
4th: Elegant :4luigi:
 
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ぱみゅ

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IIRC, Concomics' videos are in Lugiacorp's twitch and will probably never be uploaded to youtube (as per usual in Mexico).
And this is not the first time I see Qrog there but I never remember who he mains, sorry.
:196:
 

Djmarcus44

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Wasn't Falln the one who said Gunner was garbage and lost to everyone?
Yes he was. I would like to think that he caught wind of Gunner's burgeoning metagame, but I would not be surprised if he pulled out Gunner as a joke.
 

TDK

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Wasn't Falln the one who said Gunner was garbage and lost to everyone?
No idea, but he pulled out a fairly well-polished Gunner vs Mr. R's Bayo and was up about 100% when Mr. R went for the Mr. R combo, messed up, died, and switched to Link.

Yay Link~
 

Bowserboy3

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I mean, just about every character in this game has good tools. Pretending that Ganondorf doesn't have good tools would be silly (Uair and Dash attack at the very least are very good, Ftilt sends you at a disgusting angle) for people to do. But there's more to being a good character or having reason to claim a character is underrated than just having a handful of good tools.

Nevermind that Vermanubis's comment isn't exclusive to Dorf either. This is Smash 4, no longer can you consistently go: "lol I'm :metaknight::foxmelee: and ur playing a mid tier, whatchoo gonna do now?". A lot of the cast can and will **** you up for not knowing the matchup and/or not taking them seriously. Gungnir outplayed Earth, who also didn't know anything about the Ganon MU? Well no **** Earth lost then. Would've happened regardless of Gungnir's character choice.
Let's not try and go too in depth into a simple comment. I never tried to say Ganondorf was a "good character"; my mere point was to put my opinion across that I felt the character was often shunned into bottom 3/5 without proper knowledge of what he can do.

---

Anyway, of note, :4ganondorf:now has solid notable result to shout about. It's more than characters like :4jigglypuff:, :4mii:'s and :4zelda:can shout about, and arguably more than even characters like:4drmario:,:4feroy:,:4wiifit:,:4dedede: and :4falco: (and :4darkpit: because he isn't loved RIP). Of course all of these have likely done something, but I can't recall anything quite as notable for any of these on a solo run, besides maybe Falco and his recent showings thanks to AC.
 

Rizen

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Let's not try and go too in depth into a simple comment. I never tried to say Ganondorf was a "good character"; my mere point was to put my opinion across that I felt the character was often shunned into bottom 3/5 without proper knowledge of what he can do.

---

Anyway, of note, :4ganondorf:now has solid notable result to shout about. It's more than characters like :4jigglypuff:, :4mii:'s and :4zelda:can shout about, and arguably more than even characters like:4drmario:,:4feroy:,:4wiifit:,:4dedede: and :4falco: (and :4darkpit: because he isn't loved RIP). Of course all of these have likely done something, but I can't recall anything quite as notable for any of these on a solo run, besides maybe Falco and his recent showings thanks to AC.
IMO :4ganondorf:'s still bottom 5. He's better than :4jigglypuff::4zelda::4mii: and maybe but probably not :4falco::4dedede: :4bowserjr:and certainly not :4feroy::4wiifit::4drmario::4darkpit:. I think a large part of why he got this far was people didn't know what he can do. In the game vs Earth, Earth goofed a lot. I think he and some people are afraid to go offstage vs Ganon but once they realize his upB doesn't grab above him but more to the side (1:30 in the video), until the hit at the end, that Ganon will be gimped all the time. At least :4dedede: can tank a ton of damage and has some stage control. Ganon's Uair is the only real threat to intercepting him if you know the positioning and Ganon will die at 120/130% getting hit offstage because he can't return before the opponent can chase him.
^note that his side B grab bubble was moved farther forward than shown here during a patch. Also purple=super armor on his warlock punch.
 
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Floor

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:4ganondorf: is for sure bottom 5. I would say he's actually the worst in the game below :4jigglypuff:. But that's not to say he's bad; if :4ganondorf: is the worst character this game has then this game is hella balanced.
 

Jaguar360

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Don't forget that Onpu's Zelda got 33rd at UJM too, not as respectable as Gungnir's amazing performance, but far from worth overlooking. Zelda also has better past results for the most part largely thanks to Ven (wins on K9, Zenyou, Vash, 65th at Civil War, 33rd at Mexico Saga, 4th at MSM 74, 9th at Rise 2017) and Purple Guy's efforts (wins on Dath, DJ Jack, True Blue, Xaltis, 8BitMan, has won a VSGC weekly with Zelda and got 2nd at the last one he went to before parenthood).

That said, my opinion's constantly changing on which is better. I think Ganondorf is more immediately threatening and has a stronger neutral against most characters because of that threat of all of his moves along with some safe, powerful options with good spacing like b-air, u-air and f-tilt, but Zelda does have Naryu's to give her some nice utility, a threatening grab game, and a much better recovery. They're both bottom tier, maybe bottom of low tier at max potential, but they've also both shown to require some kind of respect despite being at the bottom of the barrel viability-wise.
 
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Luco

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Who do you use against GnW?
Lucas, and the way things are it'll likely stay that way. I'm pretty confident at this point I just need to play the MU better, but I don't believe it to be intrinsically bad. Lucas should have all the tools he needs to play an anti-grappler game and work around G&W's tools. In theory, anyway.
 

MERPIS

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My giant character data post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6a5rt9/smash_4_character_data_20162017_an_extensive/

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/2017/05/09/character-data-2016-2017-an-extensive-analysis/

I'll do a small monthly update but this more or less constitutes as the the Phase 1 2017 retrospective (and then some.)
Viewing the wordpress and the google doc, all I can say is...
Ughhhh Mewtwo, you gotta pick up the pace, you're falling outta the top ten in results..
 
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Radical Larry

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Concomics 2017 (182 Entrants) (Mexico)

1st: Regi :4gaw:
2nd: Verguis :4dk:
3rd: Chag :4bayonetta2:
4th: Laloba :4bayonetta2:
5th: Salva :rosalina:
5th: SBGera :4cloud2:
7th: Ez :4rob:
7th: Simi :4ness:
9th: Brian :4bowser:
9th: D.POLLO :4bowser:
9th: Serge :4charizard: :substitute:
9th: Reflet :4robinf:
13th: Woker the Hero :4fox:
13th: Qrog :substitute: (help please)
13th: FuerzaDON :4shulk:
13th: Cardy :4fox: :4cloud2:

Shoutouts to Reflet for being just about the only smasher ever that actually uses the character he's named after.
Ooh, Regi is doing well. I'd like to see some videos on this guy and see what he did to make Game and Watch work so greatly.
 

TheGoodGuava

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Jigglypuff has good air mobility, retreating aerials in neutral, an actual disadvantage, a safe kill move in bair, and situational kill confirms at 40%
FH airdodge uair rest is a safer option in most situations than sh airdodge rest but it can't be used to beat out things like Yoshi fair. FH Dair rest works if you can react to where they end up after you dair

No shes not amazing, but I don't think shes as bad as Zelda, DDD, or Ganon
 
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|RK|

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Jigglypuff has good air mobility, retreating aerials in neutral, an actual disadvantage, a safe kill move in bair, and situational kill confirms at 40%
SH airdodge uair rest is a safer option in most situations than sh airdodge rest but it can't be used to beat out things like Yoshi fair. FH Dair rest works if you can react to where they end up after you dair

No shes not amazing, but I don't think shes as bad as Zelda, DDD, or Ganon
Right, but why is she better than any of those characters?
 

TheGoodGuava

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Right, but why is she better than any of those characters?
Everything DDD does can be reacted to and he has bad mobility
Zelda has terrible hitboxes, no reliable safe way to kill, and bad mobility
Ganon has the worst mobility in the game and one of the worst disadvantages in the game. His frame data and buttons are good in a vacuum but they're ruined by his garbage mobility
 
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adom4

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Everything DDD does can be reacted to and he has bad mobility
Zelda has terrible hitboxes, no reliable safe way to kill, and bad mobility
Ganon has the worst mobility in the game and one of the worst disadvantages in the game. His frame data and buttons are good in a vacuum but they're ruined by his garbage mobility
And basically every character in the game outranges Puff because all of her hitboxes except for Nair and dash attack are absolute ****, every character outdoes her on the ground because her ground game is beyond pathetic and everyone kills her in 3 hits because lol Puff
See, i can over simplify characters too.
 
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|RK|

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Everything DDD does can be reacted to and he has bad mobility
Zelda has terrible hitboxes, no reliable safe way to kill, and bad mobility
Ganon has the worst mobility in the game and one of the worst disadvantages in the game

Ganons frame data and buttons are good in a vacuum but they're ruined by his mobility
All of that is fair, but to follow the same mold - Jiggs in an air-based fighter with no disjoints and awful ground mobility... in a game where shield is a powerful and important option. I'm not really getting a sense of why she isn't as bad as (or worse than) the others listed. Would it be possible to make a comparison of their relevant strong points?

For example - DDD has extremely slow moves and poor mobility. However, his vertical survivability is incredible in a game where the majority of safe kill options are vertical. He has good defenses against gimping, and he has huge range (and traps) to offset his mobility & frame data.

Not discounting the possibility of DDD being worse than Puff or anything - just an example. I still don't necessarily understand what makes Puff better.

(inb4 someone tells me that these four characters are not meta)
 

TDK

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My giant character data post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6a5rt9/smash_4_character_data_20162017_an_extensive/

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/2017/05/09/character-data-2016-2017-an-extensive-analysis/

I'll do a small monthly update but this more or less constitutes as the the Phase 1 2017 retrospective (and then some.)
The work you put into this and your dedication to it is beyond amazing. Thank you.

For what it's worth Dedede can purposedly throw his Gordo into a hit if he can't avoid it, take the knockback of the first hit, and then get hit by the Gordo, taking the kockback of the Gordo (Usually Less) over the (Usually much stronger) hit that you'd otherwise get hit by, further increasing how long he can live.
 

Rizen

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Everything DDD does can be reacted to and he has bad mobility
Zelda has terrible hitboxes, no reliable safe way to kill, and bad mobility
Ganon has the worst mobility in the game and one of the worst disadvantages in the game
:4zelda: has some mean combos or 50/50s off grab, Nair and Dtilt. She can be scary once she gets in but her approaching is abysmal. She has some surprising kill power if she gets the right read; I've seen upB hit 2 alone kill Link from the center of SV at 130%ish. For reference link can tank most Fsmashes from there. She also can escape a lot of juggles due to her floatiness; this is one reason why Link doesn't destroy her: she pops out of jab and other multihit moves (screw that). Her gimping and recovery are both very good. The problem is she can't force anything and has to rely on reads without safe zoning or good aggressive tools. If you can make good reads she has good tools.
:4dedede: is basically a tank with some lesser grappler traits. He can survive forever and kill early off a read and edge guarding. He's a weird character because on paper he's useless but due to his sheer enduring power he can hold on long enough to have a chance. Gordos aren't a great projectile but they do add stage/ledge control and confusion that can help DDD land monster hits.
:4ganondorf: has footsies that are better than Zelda's. Even though he doesn't have a lot of disjoint, his limbs are huge and he has burst options, including a command grab. What people need to remember when talking about Ganon's mobility is you're fighting on a floating island with limited space. And of course Ganon can kill you in 4 or 5 hits.

You could be right about :4jigglypuff: being better. I'm just making the case for the other characters. In ssb4, tiers are amorphous and it's usually hard to order the characters within. Either way, they all need to be respected but are still bottom tier.
 
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sleepy_Nex

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
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209
i'm pretty sure Zelda, ddd and Ganon should have at least a 55:45 mu with jiggz. So no way she's above them.
 
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