Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Zelder]

Between ZeRo's Loss to Brood back at at Genesis and this..What is it with the top players in the world losing to Duck Hunts because of SD'ing

A combination of MU inexperience and overextending themselves offstage?

No one wants to be that guy known for beating up a dog.

 

[Nemesis561]

Between ZeRo's Loss to Brood back at at Genesis and this..What is it with the top players in the world losing to Duck Hunts because of SD'ing

A combination of MU inexperience and overextending themselves offstage?

Two random incidents does not constitute a trend

 

[Trifroze]

You're asking the wrong questions. What you should be asking is how is DK going to force Sheik to make a mistake and vice versa. Sheik has far more control in the MU than DK does because she has a much better neutral; thus making it much easier to force DK to make a mistake.

I said this in different words, more on that below.

Also, stop ignoring DK's horrible disadvantage state. Saying that DK and characters like him can afford to make more mistakes is ridiculous. It's not uncommon to see DK make one mistake and get smacked around the screen taking a ton of damage or just losing a stock altogether.

I didn't say this. I said you can make more mistakes against Sheik than DK, but that it's harder to avoid mistakes against Sheik (because she covers everything better). You're bringing DK's disadvantage in when I just used him as a generic example to a completely different point.

Why do people always have to bring their character into everything?

And besides, you rarely get smacked around the screen for a ton of damage from one mistake. It's usually a chain of several mistakes, most of which are incorrect landing or ledge options. This is because it's very hard to pick the right one in a situation like DK vs Sheik due to Sheik's coverage, but it is there, even if your odds are something like 1:4. It's not really that arbitrary (because timing is a thing in situations like ledge getups, airdodging, fastfalling etc) but sometimes it kinda is.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/862411962612764672

Tweek confirmed for 2GGC: Greninja Saga.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There's just no reason to use Ike over Cloud, he isn't bad but if I want a heavy *** swordsman who can't sweetspot the ledge...

Ike has grab confirms and a much more solid ground game, but Cloud has the mobility to get stage positioning quickly and more efficiently. Then you add limit and all the options and scare factor with it, and yeah really no reason to play Ike over Cloud imo. Unless grab confirms are really THAT important to you.

 

[Rizen]

Speaking of getting smacked around, is FD a hard counter stage vs DK? All the games I've seen with DK vs Leo's Marth, Regi's G&W etc have DK holding his own until FD is counter picked then he just can't land. It's painful to watch. On others stages I agree DK doesn't suffer too much for 1 mistake but not on FD.

Does DK have any worse stages than FD?

Edit, someone mentioned Limit upB OoS for ; I found an example of that:
https://youtu.be/Rzv51KbQFP4?list=PL6eS95rSpmNm2HLkUJY_tI9aD22Djs29f&t=359
I mentioned this a long time ago in the other thread. Limit gives Cloud a scary OoS game in addition to all the other stuff.

 

[my_T]

Speaking of getting smacked around, is FD a hard counter stage vs DK? All the games I've seen with DK vs Leo's Marth, Regi's G&W etc have DK holding his own until FD is counter picked then he just can't land. It's painful to watch. On others stages I agree DK doesn't suffer too much for 1 mistake but not on FD.

Does DK have any worse stages than FD?

Edit, someone mentioned Limit upB OoS for ; I found an example of that:
https://youtu.be/Rzv51KbQFP4?list=PL6eS95rSpmNm2HLkUJY_tI9aD22Djs29f&t=359
I mentioned this a long time ago in the other thread. Limit gives Cloud a scary OoS game in addition to all the other stuff.

FD is a double edged sword. It's hard as **** for the DK player to get out of disadvantage but it's also easier for him to press his advantage against the opponent. Both situations caused by a lack of platforms

 

[BTVolta]

Speaking of getting smacked around, is FD a hard counter stage vs DK? All the games I've seen with DK vs Leo's Marth, Regi's G&W etc have DK holding his own until FD is counter picked then he just can't land. It's painful to watch. On others stages I agree DK doesn't suffer too much for 1 mistake but not on FD.

I wouldn't call it a hard counter. Against players that are weak at landing or just have a bad disadvantage state or can't properly capitalize on DK in the air it's a fine choice. With a punish game like his out of a grab and nowhere to land a simple powershield can seal a game.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I wouldn't call it a hard counter. Against players that are weak at landing or just have a bad disadvantage state or can't properly capitalize on DK in the air it's a fine choice. With a punish game like his out of a grab and nowhere to land a simple powershield can seal a game.

This is a good point, but know that even if he didn't powershield that fair Mr. R would've been grabbed. Horrible option overall by Ramin.

 

[Kofu]

Limit Climhazzard OoS would be a much better option if its no-knockback glitch didn't make it an unintentionally risky option. It's still good but it can screw you over at the wrong time.

 

[Nah]

Limit Climhazzard OoS would be a much better option if its no-knockback glitch didn't make it an unintentionally risky option. It's still good but it can screw you over at the wrong time.

Is it actually a glitch? Like what exactly is the deal with that, did people ever figure out what the deal was? So bizarre really.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Limit Climhazzard OoS would be a much better option if its no-knockback glitch didn't make it an unintentionally risky option. It's still good but it can screw you over at the wrong time.

What exactly is that glitch?

 

[BTVolta]

Is it actually a glitch? Like what exactly is the deal with that, did people ever figure out what the deal was? So bizarre really.

Knockback stacking. Robin can force this to happen through Arc Thunder. Clouds can just happen sometimes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzxXaf7nkdI?t=29s

https://twitter.com/Ruben_dal/status/830844614672338944

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Knockback#Knockback_stacking
Another edit: Actually reading ruben's tweet it seems like it's a GID script thing rather than just knockback stacking.

 

[Lord Dio]

Late to the party (as expected)
The Earth match is uploaded, but is there saved footage of Gungnir and Kept? I saw that get talked about as being an amazing game from Gungnir.

 

[TDK]

Ignition 82 (100 Entrants) (Chicago)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Ned
3rd: JJROCKETS
4th: Shel
5th: Slenderman
5th: Dan
7th: big_mak
7th: LORD WHOOP A$$

 

[Luigi player]

I was with you until this point. Regardless of whether or not someone SDs, it's still a legit win or loss. If a player makes a mistake, then they get punished for those mistakes, and yeah some punishes are harsher than others but that's just part of the game. I don't view it as much different as getting ding donged by DK, you screwed up, now you're gonna die for it. It sucks, but oh well.

I can't agree at all. Sure, the one who SD'd made a huge mistake and it's their own fault, but it's vastly different than getting Ding Donged by DK, lol. You're basically handing your opponent a free win / stock.

Of course they do still count as wins/losses. But they should only happen very very rarely and when they do it really doesn't show who played better or deserved the win at all (the SDing player outplayed themselves instead of their opponent doing so).

If my opponent SDs I always feel bad and know I didn't deserve that unless I somehow made them SD or they were dead either way. I'll still take it, though, obviously. Same for when it happens to me. Can't just redo everything up until that point just because the opponent made a huge mistake. It's of course also their fault for that to happen and if you make such a mistake it's also fair to get punished for it. Not that hard, but still.
It's the biggest and most deciding punishment of a mistake in the game.

I definitely can't take the outcome of matches with things like these seriously. It's always sad to see it happen and it probably wouldn't happen 49/50 times. It's less "unlegit" if the SDing player was behind a lot, but it still is (to me).

 

[ぱみゅ]

This game (as well as most head-to-head competitions) is not about "deserving" to win, as you don't gain merits of any kind. It's all about the scoring.
It doesn't matter if flashy, campy, with frowned strats, if you really outplayed someone, or simply got lucky.
Else we would had judges awarding victories based on how they performed (yay SSB64 combo contests!).

 

[|RK|]

Ignition 82 (100 Entrants) (Chicago)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Ned
3rd: JJROCKETS
4th: Shel
5th: Slenderman
5th: Dan
7th: big_mak
7th: LORD WHOOP A$$

Oh wow, ZeRo didn't even go Diddy against Ned this time. I wonder if ZeRo is trying to make Lucina a co-main OR if that's just the amount of effort a secondary demands these days.

 

[Kofu]

Is it actually a glitch? Like what exactly is the deal with that, did people ever figure out what the deal was? So bizarre really.

I consider it a glitch because, while it's in line with the programming, it's an unintended function of the attack.

But yeah, basically it happens when the second hitbox connects before the first.

 

[Goombo]

Oh wow, ZeRo didn't even go Diddy against Ned this time.

He actually did.
It was a 3-0 with Diddy in Winners Finals and a 3-0 with Lucina in Grands.

 

[L9999]

Oh wow, ZeRo didn't even go Diddy against Ned this time. I wonder if ZeRo is trying to make Lucina a co-main OR if that's just the amount of effort a secondary demands these days.

Implying secondaries didn't demand effort before.....

 

[Megamang]

Of course, if you SD you deserve to lose. He isn't saying that.


I think the point is, you don't look at MU analysis as if it was a win.

If ESAM is running the game on some, idk, Wii Fit Trainer. She tries to camp offstage. ESAM, ever the aggro player, tries a fancy QAC at the ledge to nair to get a kill and instead just QA's to his death. And lets say he was way up, he could have waited out the game instead, up by 100%.


ESAM deserved to lose. Yes.

BUT. We don't say 'Maybe Wii Fit does well vs Pika' 'Maybe pika loses hard to ledgecamping' 'Looks like ESAM doesn't know that MU', etc etc etc. I think this is what he meant, because that is the context it came up in.

No one is saying we need to give stocks back for SDs. Chill guys.

 

[Luigi player]

This game (as well as most head-to-head competitions) is not about "deserving" to win, as you don't gain merits of any kind. It's all about the scoring.
It doesn't matter if flashy, campy, with frowned strats, if you really outplayed someone, or simply got lucky.
Else we would had judges awarding victories based on how they performed (yay SSB64 combo contests!).

I know, and I agree.

SDing is just something else, caused by a (harsh) mistake at a very bad position of the player it happens to. It's completely the players fault, and it can give the other one the win or at least get rid of a whole stock, no matter the %.
Obviously this can decide matches and sets and might cause the player it happens to to lose for free.

Is it a mistake by the player it happens to? Yeah.
Does the player deserve to get punished for it? Sure.
Will the player who it happened to lose if it's the last stock of the match/set? Yup.
Is it a legit win over the player tho? Not really.

I mean you can twist and turn this around however you want and compare it to other things. I also can't see "hitting the opponent once and then running away the rest of the game for a timeout win" as a legit win, although you have to question how that was possible in the first place. Realistically this shouldn't be possible, otherwise such stages/tactics would be deemed too powerful and banned, and if it was to still happen, then the timed out player must have lost his "RPS" game against his opponent like 500 times or something, so he was just outplayed. So I'd count it as legit. But that's besides the point.

Imagine you have a WF, GF1 and GF2 with the same players, every time going to game 5, and in the final game it's totally even, both of them got rid of the first stock of the other and are at 0 %, then suddenly one of them has a huge run, got many reads/predictions correctly and suddenly it is 0 % to 150, then he accidently dairs above the edge with a dair similar to Sonic/Sheik/ZSS when he wanted to bair and falls offstage and dies. That's not a legit win or me, sorry. It will be counted obviously and will be seen as the ultimate decision of the game and obviously the one who SD'd got 2nd, maybe "losing" a lot of prizes, fame or whatever through not getting first, but it was not a legit ending of the match/set/tourney.

All of the stuff about it being consecutive or the final sets or game 5 shouldn't even matter and just the SD itself making the outcome not completely legit in my eyes.

Or imagine 2 players playing 50 sets. In 49 the same player wins, in 1 he loses because of an SD. Is the other player better in that one set? Not imo. But he still won it, just not legitimately. But that's just my opinion on the matter.
If the SDing player had 150 % and the other one 0 then the outcome could've very likely stayed the same anyway and I wouldn't see that as a really unlegit win, though. Just not 100 % legit.

I guess you can see it differently. It's legit enough to "count" (if that automatically makes it legit in your eyes then it might just be semantics we're disagreeing on) - I'm not disagreeing with that.

You could say I'm looking at it at a.. (idk a fitting word for it but something like) "personal/philosophical" level and not at a mathematical one (which just says the other won).

In MUs and such you should always have to take into account how it happened, but that's something else anyway.

 

[chaos11011]

I just want to pop in and say neither was match up inexperience. Zero played the Duck Hunts at extent when he went to Japan, even making many videos about the players of those characters last year. Leo beat You3 at G4 and lost to Raito this week. You can't speculate on MU inexp when he got to play the 2nd best DH before he played the 1st.

It's a two way street btw. I still count Dabuz's win on Raito a valid win despite the fact that Raito had no idea on how to play the match up, factoring in on how he didn't use any of DH's easy ways to kill Luma or bait Gravitational Pull to punish (instead, he stood there helpless). Match up inexperience isn't always mutually exclusive to the higher tiered character versus a lower tiered one.

But yeah, let's attribute every mid/low tier win to MU inexperience so we can trivialize the success of upcoming threats and character development

EDIT: Rereading this, I think I came across as harsh and I didnt mean to! I'm just pointing out an in general trend that a lot of lower tiered characters experience when they beat higher tiered ones.

 

[JayZee1700]

I know I'm joining the conversation a little late, but I just wanted to reiterate that FD as a counter pick vs. DK is, as mentioned before, a double edged sword. Yes, it's very easy to juggle and punish DK for his mistakes, but if the DK player makes the correct choices, they can take your stock after just a few hits and a Ding Dong to finish you off. While having no platforms makes it really difficult for DK to land or to pick a ledge option correctly, it's not impossible.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that FD is a 50-50 for risk-reward for DK. The double-edged sword is sharper on one side, and frankly, DK struggles more on FD than he dominates, lest he succeed on FD. I'd say that it's around 60-40, with a disadvantage for DK.

Then again, it'll depend on the MU. Some characters such as Sheik or Fox get much more out of punishing DK's mistakes with ledge traps and juggling respectively. But other characters like perhaps Ryu, who can't cover ledge get-up options as well as Sheik or juggle as well as Fox, won't get as much out of FD.

 

[Flux0r]

Abadango might be dropping Mewtwo for Bayonetta.

Source: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/141422559?t=01h31m17s

I would not lose my head over such a vague statement, but it's very interesting how such a perceived powerful character like Mewtwo is getting pushed to the side by his most important player.

Or he just wants to try something new.

Looking forward to see more of his Bayo in the future.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I still count Dabuz's win on Raito a valid win despite the fact that Raito had no idea on how to play the match up

What exactly do you mean by "valid win"?

 

[Illuminose]

i think that, although we have seen wadi be more successful, the overall decline of mewtwo since last summer has been pretty clear. i won't say mewtwo is entirely figured out or that he drops out of top tier, but the character's counterplay has become increasingly apparent. mewtwo is a character focused on conditioning and capitalizing on mistakes, playing a consistent and dangerous defensive game in order to do so. the issue is that this doesn't really work that well vs characters who aren't forced to make mistakes. mewtwo also gets ledge trapped pretty hard. a pretty clear example of counterplay to these weaknesses in action is that sheik is now considered to have an edge over mewtwo. sheik can exert a lot of pressure on mewtwo while remaining safe and trap mewtwo at the ledge heavily; it's really pretty hard for mewtwo to counteract this. what mewtwo has in this matchup is strong reward and ko power over sheik, so the matchup isn't too bad, but sheik controls neutral and the ledge very effectively in this matchup.

the diddy and cloud matchups have not improved from solid -2 matchups over time, as we've seen time and time again. diddy has safety and ledge pressure that can make it difficult for mewtwo, whereas cloud's range can be outright oppressive for mewtwo to deal with, as well as strong juggling and early ko power. early ko power is also a big deal because a lot of 'should be bad' matchups are made very dangerous for mewtwo, to the point where we've seen aba not even opt to pick mewtwo in those matchups. for example, dk and link can abuse their survivability against mewtwo and kill him extremely early. mewtwo's punish game and defense in these matchups is extremely strong, but it almost doesn't matter in some senses until both stocks are taken and the game is won because it is so easy for mewtwo to get hit by the odd fair or grabbed out of nowhere and die despite whatever lead he may have.

mewtwo also has a big hurtbox and landing issues that can cause him problems in other matchups. for example, bayo beats mewtwo, even in spite of mewtwo's strong neutral game, mostly because of two aspects; she has large hitboxes to put on pressure, and it's super easy to combo mewtwo to death even in spite of sdi. neutral is close enough that bayo finds enough opportunities. also think about even matchups like fox and zss that used to be much easier for mewtwo; these characters can capitalize on mewtwo's landing issues, kill him early, and put on safe offensive pressure. the difference from these being losing matchups is that mewtwo can beat these characters in neutral enough times and has the devastating punishes to make the most of his hits.

mewtwo can keep up in many of his matchups and can do a lot with a lead, but here's the thing: mewtwo pretty much no longer wins any matchups against top tiers. he doesn't necessarily dominate vs the rest of the cast either. i think mewtwo is in a similar boat to zss now, where i would consider him borderline or not top 10. and for aba, someone who has had a relative decline in performances and has already gotten his bayo to such a high level in a short period of time, picking arguably the best character in the game vs one that might not even be top 10 seems like a simple logical choice to me.

 

[ARISTOS]

i think that, although we have seen wadi be more successful, the overall decline of mewtwo since last summer has been pretty clear. i won't say mewtwo is entirely figured out or that he drops out of top tier, but the character's counterplay has become increasingly apparent. mewtwo is a character focused on conditioning and capitalizing on mistakes, playing a consistent and dangerous defensive game in order to do so. the issue is that this doesn't really work that well vs characters who aren't forced to make mistakes. mewtwo also gets ledge trapped pretty hard. a pretty clear example of counterplay to these weaknesses in action is that sheik is now considered to have an edge over mewtwo. sheik can exert a lot of pressure on mewtwo while remaining safe and trap mewtwo at the ledge heavily; it's really pretty hard for mewtwo to counteract this. what mewtwo has in this matchup is strong reward and ko power over sheik, so the matchup isn't too bad, but sheik controls neutral and the ledge very effectively in this matchup.

the diddy and cloud matchups have not improved from solid -2 matchups over time, as we've seen time and time again. diddy has safety and ledge pressure that can make it difficult for mewtwo, whereas cloud's range can be outright oppressive for mewtwo to deal with, as well as strong juggling and early ko power. early ko power is also a big deal because a lot of 'should be bad' matchups are made very dangerous for mewtwo, to the point where we've seen aba not even opt to pick mewtwo in those matchups. for example, dk and link can abuse their survivability against mewtwo and kill him extremely early. mewtwo's punish game and defense in these matchups is extremely strong, but it almost doesn't matter in some senses until both stocks are taken and the game is won because it is so easy for mewtwo to get hit by the odd fair or grabbed out of nowhere and die despite whatever lead he may have.

mewtwo also has a big hurtbox and landing issues that can cause him problems in other matchups. for example, bayo beats mewtwo, even in spite of mewtwo's strong neutral game, mostly because of two aspects; she has large hitboxes to put on pressure, and it's super easy to combo mewtwo to death even in spite of sdi. neutral is close enough that bayo finds enough opportunities. also think about even matchups like fox and zss that used to be much easier for mewtwo; these characters can capitalize on mewtwo's landing issues, kill him early, and put on safe offensive pressure. the difference from these being losing matchups is that mewtwo can beat these characters in neutral enough times and has the devastating punishes to make the most of his hits.

mewtwo can keep up in many of his matchups and can do a lot with a lead, but here's the thing: mewtwo pretty much no longer wins any matchups against top tiers. he doesn't necessarily dominate vs the rest of the cast either. i think mewtwo is in a similar boat to zss now, where i would consider him borderline or not top 10. and for aba, someone who has had a relative decline in performances and has already gotten his bayo to such a high level in a short period of time, picking arguably the best character in the game vs one that might not even be top 10 seems like a simple logical choice to me.

I agree with a lot of this.

Mewtwo is a monster within his zone (Dtilt) range, where he has a ton of options to his disposal that will beat many possible defensive options the opponent can take.

However, once this zone is broken he really suffers: his slow DJ mean he gets comboed, his poor air acceleration means even with his mixups he can still be trapped by faster characters/big hitboxes, his options for escaping corner pressure are poor and making the wrong choice can be very fatal, which means mixups on the opponents part can be devastating.

That being said, I feel Abadango (and similarly Rich Brown) play an overly aggressive style of Mewtwo which people can deal with easier because it relies on moves like Nair, which come with very obvious risks. WaDi's more defensive style may prove to be more threatening in the long run because it focuses on the part of M2 which is most oppressive, his zoning prowess.

 

[Rizen]

I know, and I agree.

SDing is just something else, caused by a (harsh) mistake at a very bad position of the player it happens to. It's completely the players fault, and it can give the other one the win or at least get rid of a whole stock, no matter the %.
Obviously this can decide matches and sets and might cause the player it happens to to lose for free.

Is it a mistake by the player it happens to? Yeah.
Does the player deserve to get punished for it? Sure.
Will the player who it happened to lose if it's the last stock of the match/set? Yup.
Is it a legit win over the player tho? Not really.

I mean you can twist and turn this around however you want and compare it to other things. I also can't see "hitting the opponent once and then running away the rest of the game for a timeout win" as a legit win, although you have to question how that was possible in the first place. Realistically this shouldn't be possible, otherwise such stages/tactics would be deemed too powerful and banned, and if it was to still happen, then the timed out player must have lost his "RPS" game against his opponent like 500 times or something, so he was just outplayed. So I'd count it as legit. But that's besides the point.

Imagine you have a WF, GF1 and GF2 with the same players, every time going to game 5, and in the final game it's totally even, both of them got rid of the first stock of the other and are at 0 %, then suddenly one of them has a huge run, got many reads/predictions correctly and suddenly it is 0 % to 150, then he accidently dairs above the edge with a dair similar to Sonic/Sheik/ZSS when he wanted to bair and falls offstage and dies. That's not a legit win or me, sorry. It will be counted obviously and will be seen as the ultimate decision of the game and obviously the one who SD'd got 2nd, maybe "losing" a lot of prizes, fame or whatever through not getting first, but it was not a legit ending of the match/set/tourney.

All of the stuff about it being consecutive or the final sets or game 5 shouldn't even matter and just the SD itself making the outcome not completely legit in my eyes.

Or imagine 2 players playing 50 sets. In 49 the same player wins, in 1 he loses because of an SD. Is the other player better in that one set? Not imo. But he still won it, just not legitimately. But that's just my opinion on the matter.
If the SDing player had 150 % and the other one 0 then the outcome could've very likely stayed the same anyway and I wouldn't see that as a really unlegit win, though. Just not 100 % legit.

I guess you can see it differently. It's legit enough to "count" (if that automatically makes it legit in your eyes then it might just be semantics we're disagreeing on) - I'm not disagreeing with that.

You could say I'm looking at it at a.. (idk a fitting word for it but something like) "personal/philosophical" level and not at a mathematical one (which just says the other won).

In MUs and such you should always have to take into account how it happened, but that's something else anyway.

Since 'Legitimate' means "in accordance with established rules, principles, or standards", I can't see SD loses being anything but. A big part of smash is tech-skill; top players spend hundreds of hours practicing ATs and combos to pull them off correctly. Another part of any competition is nerves. You have to be able to preform in front of an audience. Competitive anything isn't played in a bubble.

I agree that you can't judge an MU as bad because (top character player) SDed vs (other top player). But that's not the same as competitive wins.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Yea the more watch Mewtwo I see that he really does struggle bad if he gets trapped by the ledge. Guess thats Is why he loses to Diddy and Sheik so bad considering how godly there ledge-trapping is.

Despite Mewtwo's top-tierairdoge and amazing d-tilt. His overall disadvantage state seems mediocre or just above that at best.

 

[Nu~]

More than anyone else in the game, mewtwo also struggles dealing with cross ups or when opponents get behind him in general.

I think he's super good but man do you have to play him like a fortress. WaDi's style does wonders for him

 

[chaos11011]

What exactly do you mean by "valid win"?

The previous page was talking about MU inexperience/SDing not counting as a real win (in the sense that it still counts in tournament, but isnt morally a win)

 

[David Viran]

Mewtwo doesn't have a frame 1 AD. I've seen a few people think this and the only reason I can come up for why people think this is because of the how M2's AD is overrated. Yes it's a good AD but it comes out on frame 2 like the other good characters. It does have a frame or two less cool down but also has a frame less intangibility to go with it. He is able to drift pretty well during his AD and he disappears making it hard to follow him but, if you keep in mind that due to his below average aerial acceleration, he has trouble changing direction and that you can see his name tag when he disappears then you can effectively punish his AD like most others. This was not directed towards you Ziodyne 21 BTW.

 

[TDK]

So, WaDi posted his top 10 characters (in order) on twitter.



He also said his HMs were and

So this is another ~top 25 player that thinks Lucina is better than Marth. Mr. E and Leo I can kind of get since they play Marth and might see Lucina as more consistent, but WaDi? Are there any notable Lucinas in MDVA even?

 

[L9999]

So, WaDi posted his top 10 characters (in order) on twitter.



He also said his HMs were and

So this is another ~top 25 player that thinks Lucina is better than Marth. Mr. E and Leo I can kind of get since they play Marth and might see Lucina as more consistent, but WaDi? Are there any notable Lucinas in MDVA even?

Forget Lucina, why do people still sleep on ZSS?

 

[Rizen]

Mewtwo doesn't have a frame 1 AD. I've seen a few people think this and the only reason I can come up for why people think this is because of the how M2's AD is overrated. Yes it's a good AD but it comes out on frame 2 like the other good characters. It does have a frame or two less cool down but also has a frame less intangibility to go with it. He is able to drift pretty well during his AD and he disappears making it hard to follow him but, if you keep in mind that due to his below average aerial acceleration, he has trouble changing direction and that you can see his name tag when he disappears then you can effectively punish his AD like most others. This was not directed towards you Ziodyne 21 BTW.

Who's air dodge is better than Mewtwo's?

So this is another ~top 25 player that thinks Lucina is better than Marth.

Who are the others?

 

[TDK]

Who's air dodge is better than Mewtwo's?

Who are the others?

Mr. E and Leo

According to ZeRo, Mr. E's said it for sure (And intends to prove that, considering he's been mostly using Lucina for a while), and Leo said he might agree with Mr. E.

So that's Mr. E and WaDi for sure, and possibly Leo.

 

[DMan64]

So, WaDi posted his top 10 characters (in order) on twitter.



He also said his HMs were and

So this is another ~top 25 player that thinks Lucina is better than Marth. Mr. E and Leo I can kind of get since they play Marth and might see Lucina as more consistent, but WaDi? Are there any notable Lucinas in MDVA even?

Kind of suprised to see him put Lucina over Marth, but I can understand where he's coming from. In my opinion Lucina has been quite an underrated character for a while, and I think that there is quite a bit she can do over Marth, and if top Marth players are saying things like that there is certainly merit to their claims. The only thing that has me unsure of the claim that Lucina is better than Marth is the fact that the two in a way complement each other, and many would argue that if you play one, then you should play the other depending on what character you are facing. But if you didn't play the Marcina way, then I think Lucina would be better as a co-main or secondary, rather than Marth. Regardless, I'm just glad to see her get more representation and results.

 

[Laken64]

Abadango might be dropping Mewtwo for Bayonetta.

Source: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/141422559?t=01h31m17s

I would not lose my head over such a vague statement, but it's very interesting how such a perceived powerful character like Mewtwo is getting pushed to the side by his most important player.

Or he just wants to try something new.

Looking forward to see more of his Bayo in the future.

So if he does drop M2 that would make WaDi the best M2 in the world, I've always thought of his style of M2 was the most optimal, after all, they can't cross you up if theres no ground to cross up (insert dead meme here)