Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Jaguar360]

So, WaDi posted his top 10 characters (in order) on twitter.



He also said his HMs were and

So this is another ~top 25 player that thinks Lucina is better than Marth. Mr. E and Leo I can kind of get since they play Marth and might see Lucina as more consistent, but WaDi? Are there any notable Lucinas in MDVA even?

Nika is a Lucina who has been performing pretty well at Xanadus for a while. Still gotta wonder though. Maybe Mr. E has been playing Marth and Lucina against him in friendlies or something and that had an impact on his opinion. They were just at Glitch 3 after all.

 

[Luigi player]

Mewtwo generally has a fragile disadvantage.
Be it coming back from the ledge or trying to get out of combos/setups/being hit in general.
The airdodge is a truly amazing option, being able to move is something all other chracters besides Ness and Lucas can only wish for. And on top of that it's invisible and it ends 1 frame sooner than most.
But as amazing as that one option is, Mewtwo lacks mixups in this regard. The fastest aerial is frame 6, which doesn't cover enough angles. And the 2nd fastest is frame 7, which even if it trades is very likely a very bad trade. Both of these are kinda slow options. With the doublejump being slow as well that's taking another option somewhat away (Mewtwo can still try to dj + airdodge though, which is a very useful thing to do to get out of picky situations).

If you predict Mewtwos drift during the airdodge(s) you'll get a nice punish. So there's always some kind of 50:50 when hitting it without true combos.

Couple the fact that this option is so great and the others slow with Mewtwos weight and you have a pretty fragile character.
You can easily predict Mewtwo airdodging, but following it will be a guessing game. If you guess right you'll have a very nice reward for that, though.

Same thing with it having to get back from the ledge. It can be very scary for Mewtwo to try to get back onstage without helping platforms. It has more options there than after being hit, but being close to the blastzone and most options being laggy and punishable doesn't help.


Don't know about crossups being a problem for Mewtwo, though. Oos nair is great for that. Utilt and usmash are good/scary enough to make people not try to come from above. Mewtwo could also pp dtilt to drift back a bit (though that isn't 100 % reliable).
Also can't really agree on the MUs against Cloud and Diddy being -2. They're barely -1.

 

[DunnoBro]

Mewtwo's disadvantage seems fine, or at least his options. Top m2s come back from the ledge fine if not gain advantage there, certainly better options than even sheik has on the ledge. he has a lot of landing mix-ups too.

Fame 6/7 for disjoints is not bad at all. Especially with the recovery frames from his airdodge. Sheik's fair is frame 5, for example. 1 frame slower for WAY more range and power.

The issue truly seems to just be how light he is so finally guessing his options yields a meaty reward. But m2 shouldn't be losing neutral to begin with. So if you're not the better player, you won't win. As opposed to Bayonetta..

 

[DMan64]

I personally think Mewtwo's disadvantage isn't bad, but it's not good. The key issues are his large frame and light weight, making him easy to land a hit and KO, however, thanks to a variety of landing mix-ups, those issues are somewhat negated. However I think that if you get a good read on your opponent or you are a character who can cover landing options really well or safely, then Mewtwo may have some trouble.

 

[DunnoBro]

Rich brown almost lost round 2 in pools at smashcon because this bowser kept fsmashing and killing him at 20%

Granted, most of it was to uthrow set-ups. Meanwhile, other 50/50s like simply don't work on him due to the airdodge. It's a mixed bag.

 

[Yonder]

Abadango might be dropping Mewtwo for Bayonetta.

Source: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/141422559?t=01h31m17s

I would not lose my head over such a vague statement, but it's very interesting how such a perceived powerful character like Mewtwo is getting pushed to the side by his most important player.

Or he just wants to try something new.

Looking forward to see more of his Bayo in the future.

I hope he doesn't phase his Mewtwo out to Bayo, like he has done with multiple other characters in the past that stopped winning for him.

Him bringing out that mid tier Mewtwo at the time of Pound and taking Pound 2016 was easily my favorite moment of Smash 4 history. It would kinda hurt to see him change off from that magical character defining playthrough, but I won't jump to any conclusions since it was such a
I hope to **** he doesn't phase his Mewtwo out to Bayo, like he has done with multiple other characters in the past that stopped winning for him.

Him bringing out that mid tier Mewtwo at the time of Pound and taking Pound 2016 was easily my favorite moment of Smash 4 history. It would kinda hurt to see him change off from that magical character defining playthrough, but it's just Abadango's play method to drop any character that isn't pulling results anymore. He'll for sure drop Bayo if she doesn't win him a tournament in the next few months for his next experiment.

Spoiler

Then I will be no longer be rooting for Abadango in brackets cause I hate Bayo and I'm a whiny bias **** who only supports his favorite mains like Luigi, Mewtwo, and Robin...I'll have to replace him with Dath. Immature I know but I can't help but root for the character and not the player...

(I wonder what he could do with Duck Hunt...seems to be a Japaense exclusive character to do good with)

 

[DunnoBro]

I'll still root for him and every Bayo player, because the character's busted and the sooner everyone realizes it, the better.

 

[Nu~]

Mewtwo generally has a fragile disadvantage.
Be it coming back from the ledge or trying to get out of combos/setups/being hit in general.
The airdodge is a truly amazing option, being able to move is something all other chracters besides Ness and Lucas can only wish for. And on top of that it's invisible and it ends 1 frame sooner than most.
But as amazing as that one option is, Mewtwo lacks mixups in this regard. The fastest aerial is frame 6, which doesn't cover enough angles. And the 2nd fastest is frame 7, which even if it trades is very likely a very bad trade. Both of these are kinda slow options. With the doublejump being slow as well that's taking another option somewhat away (Mewtwo can still try to dj + airdodge though, which is a very useful thing to do to get out of picky situations).

If you predict Mewtwos drift during the airdodge(s) you'll get a nice punish. So there's always some kind of 50:50 when hitting it without true combos.

Couple the fact that this option is so great and the others slow with Mewtwos weight and you have a pretty fragile character.
You can easily predict Mewtwo airdodging, but following it will be a guessing game. If you guess right you'll have a very nice reward for that, though.

Same thing with it having to get back from the ledge. It can be very scary for Mewtwo to try to get back onstage without helping platforms. It has more options there than after being hit, but being close to the blastzone and most options being laggy and punishable doesn't help.


Don't know about crossups being a problem for Mewtwo, though. Oos nair is great for that. Utilt and usmash are good/scary enough to make people not try to come from above. Mewtwo could also pp dtilt to drift back a bit (though that isn't 100 % reliable).
Also can't really agree on the MUs against Cloud and Diddy being -2. They're barely -1.

Given Nair's..."questionable" hitbox however, I'm not quite sure it's super great for catching cross ups. Applying SHAD cross ups (you have to have decent enough airspeed to do it however) as an approach mixup can really give him a hard time.

 

[DMan64]

If Abadango plays Bayo and finds more success with her so be it. In competitive play, you have to go with what works best for you, even if you have to use a controversial character. I dislike fighting Bayo as much as other people, and I will always root for characters that are under represented, but I will never stop rooting for a player simply because they switch a character to pursue their goals. Would it be upsetting if Abadango stopped playing Mewtwo permanently, of course, but you never know, their's still plenty to discover in this game. And in this game, having multiple characters at your disposal seems to be what the meta will be defined by quite a bit. We see it with ZeRo, pretty much using Lucina as a co-main now.

 

[Rizen]

I respect Aba and any player's decision to play a better character but as a personal opinion I really liked his Mewtwo.

Given Nair's..."questionable" hitbox however, I'm not quite sure it's super great for catching cross ups. Applying SHAD cross ups (you have to have decent enough airspeed to do it however) as an approach mixup can really give him a hard time.

I disagree. Mewtwo's Nair has hitbubbles arranged in a square shape and that means when he drifts to the side while falling or rising there's noticeable disjoint from his hurtbox. It's a better arrangement than Nair bubbles that cover the character in a circle like Lucas'.

 

[Nu~]

If Abadango plays Bayo and finds more success with her so be it. In competitive play, you have to go with what works best for you, even if you have to use a controversial character. I dislike fighting Bayo as much as other people, and I will always root for characters that are under represented, but I will never stop rooting for a player simply because they switch a character to pursue their goals. Would it be upsetting if Abadango stopped playing Mewtwo permanently, of course, but you never know, their's still plenty to discover in this game. And in this game, having multiple characters at your disposal seems to be what the meta will be defined by quite a bit. We see it with ZeRo, pretty much using Lucina as a co-main now.

Well I mean...it depends on why you root for a player in the first place.

I originally rooted for Abadango because he repped Pac-Man, and I love Pac-Man.
When he switched to MK, I had nothing to root for. I don't know Abadango personally, my support was just based on my love of Pac.

As time went on however, I started to enjoy his playstyle overall and began to root for him again.
Now Nairo, that's a guy I've always rooted for because I like his playstyle and his streams allow me to see his fun personality.


You can respect a player's choice to switch but that doesn't mean you have to keep cheering for them.

 

[|RK|]

Two quick things, in the form of tweets.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Abadango may not be dropping Mewtwo at all.

And...

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is way more important than people give it credit for. Going up the tier list for success is all good and well, but character synergy is a real thing. Bayonetta and Cloud will never work for everyone. Best example is naturally ZeRo's Cloud vs his Lucina. They're both good, but the latter is much better because she gets with him better. Just a reminder.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is way more important than people give it credit for. Going up the tier list for success is all good and well, but character synergy is a real thing. Bayonetta and Cloud will never work for everyone. Best example is naturally ZeRo's Cloud vs his Lucina. They're both good, but the latter is much better because she gets with him better. Just a reminder.

I believe someone posted this in the previous thread, it holds very true.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AGHGEttNjyo

 

[Yikarur]

I respect Aba and any player's decision to play a better character but as a personal opinion I really liked his Mewtwo.

I disagree. Mewtwo's Nair has hitbubbles arranged in a square shape and that means when he drifts to the side while falling or rising there's noticeable disjoint from his hurtbox. It's a better arrangement than Nair bubbles that cover the character in a circle like Lucas'.

I'm sure these are pre-patch hitboxes.

 

[Rizen]

I'm sure these are pre-patch hitboxes.

You're right. It's what I found here:
https://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-hitbox-visualization.432666/
But that was posted over a year ago. IIRC MewTwo's hitbubbles were expanded.

 

[ARGHETH]

You're right. It's what I found here:
https://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-hitbox-visualization.432666/
But that was posted over a year ago. IIRC MewTwo's hitbubbles were expanded.

The hitbubbles were expanded on patch 1.1.5, a week after that was posted.

 

[TDK]

NinjaLink , Akashic , and PHaZeX3R0 have all been fully funded for 2GGC: Greninja Saga, bringing the total of notable Greninjas attending up to 13.

 

[Floor]

It's never going to realistically be advantage for Puff when Falcon can kill Puff from a grab. I wouldn't list it as even, either. Edge guarding Falcon with Puff doesn't really make up for what Falcon can do when he's on stage.

The problem with your reasoning is that the reason it's often considered even due to the fact that Puff's crouch prevents her from being grabbed

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Abadango has clarified on his previous tweets about now maining Bayo.
https://twitter.com/lg_abadango/status/862942730359513088

Aba switched Mewtwo to his secondary now.
All I can say it that I hope it works put well for him

 

[Nah]

The problem with your reasoning is that the reason it's often considered even due to the fact that Puff's crouch prevents her from being grabbed

The problem with this then is that a) Jiggs spends a lot of time in the air (because she's trash on the ground) and so doesn't get to try to crouch Falcon's grabs a lot and b) there's more to Falcon than dash grabs

 

[Trifroze]

The problem with your reasoning is that the reason it's often considered even due to the fact that Puff's crouch prevents her from being grabbed

Why would Falcon (or anyone else) grab the opponent at a time when they have the ability to crouch? You use grabs and dash grabs to punish jumps, landings, attacks, movement, rolls and shielding. You shouldn't go for a raw grab or raw anything on a standing(/crouching) opponent "just because" very often.

Mega Man's crouch prevents him from being grabbed by Falcon as well and that's a roughly even matchup despite Mega Man being far more competent than Puff overall.

(it's not even because of Mega Man's crouch)

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Abadango has clarified on his previous tweets about now maining Bayo.
https://twitter.com/lg_abadango/status/862942730359513088

Aba switched Mewtwo to his secondary now.
All I can say it that I hope it works put well for him

Who would he use Mewtwo for then?

 

[TDK]

Who would he use Mewtwo for then?

Luigi?

 

[blackghost]

Who would he use Mewtwo for then?

It's for players that do well against bayo more than just characters that dont mind her. Characters like Luigi, ness, diddy, and possibly even the bayo mirror he'd go mewtwo. If he plays zero, dabaz, nairo, or void he'd go mewtwo i think.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well speaking of players switching to Bayo. Tweek was alao using her in doubles at Royal Flush, and it looked pretty good.? even having a bit more success with her then his Cloud in some sets.

I wonder if Tweek will use her at any point in the singles competition. It did look like he put in some work with her.

 

[DunnoBro]

I doubt he'll use m2 much at all once he gets his Bayo up to snuff, perhaps against certain grapplers but overall Bayo is easier and less stressful than m2.

 

[Y2Kay]

NinjaLink , Akashic , and PHaZeX3R0 have all been fully funded for 2GGC: Greninja Saga, bringing the total of notable Greninjas attending up to 13.

FeelsAmazingMan

make us proud, sensei! ^_^

 

[FeelMeUp]

beats but probably loses to .
I used to think all but Bayo and Cloud were even(always felt they ranged from 55:45-6:4 depending on the stage) but my opinion has changed on the others. She has almost no 50:50 matchups, but Rosa is probably 45:55 and the future looks bleak UNLESS the Dthrow>Uair range isn't a tiny 5%. Rosa is the only matchup that has only gotten worse over time and is the single occasion I can agree with the "Sheik needs to play perfectly" meme.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

beats but probably loses to .
I used to think all but Bayo and Cloud were even(always felt they ranged from 55:45-6:4 depending on the stage) but my opinion has changed on the others. She has almost no 50:50 matchups, but Rosa is probably 45:55 and the future looks bleak UNLESS the Dthrow>Uair range isn't a tiny 5%. Rosa is the only matchup that has only gotten worse over time and is the single occasion I can agree with the "Sheik needs to play perfectly" meme.

Void has stated that Sheik also loses to Mario as well. I think ZeRo has also said it as well. Mario does have a pretty good record of beating Sheik to show it.

Locus has also shown that Ryu can do surprisingly well vs Sheik as well, the MU may actuallay be close to even

I am not saying Sheik does not have an amazing MU spread, because she absolutely does, but that is just slightly optimistic

 

[FeelMeUp]

Void has stated that Sheik also loses to Mario as well. I think ZeRo has also said it as well. Mario does have a pretty good record of beating Sheik to show it.

Locus has also shown that Ryu can do surprisingly well vs Sheik as well, the MU may actuallay be close to even

VoiD believes Sheik beats Mario when I last checked. Mr. R thinks Mario and Rosalina are potentially even or losses, but seems to push Mario closer to the "this is bad" territory. VoiD actually has the optimal style for killing Mario and escaping disadvantage, but he needs to improve DI on vertical setups and needleplay asap or else he might keep losing to them.
Took a set off of Anti recently and beat Ally at SSC. Mr. R also took a set off of Zenyou in a dominant fashion at MSM 3-4 days ago.

Edit:
Most everyone thinks Sheik beats Cloud and Bayo.
Mr. R thinks Diddy beats Sheik while some others believe it's even.
For a while I thought Sonic was dead even but the results are pretty slanted in her favour and it hasn't seemed too great ever since spindash counterplay evolved.
M2 is notably considered a slight win by everyone from both sides of the MU, including VoiD/Mr. R/Abadango.
Last I talked to Trela he thought Sheik was either even or a slight loss.
I don't think I've said anything off the wall crazy.

 

[Luigi player]

VoiD believes Sheik beats Mario when I last checked. Mr. R thinks Mario and Rosalina are potentially even or losses, but seems to push Mario closer to the "this is bad" territory. VoiD actually has the optimal style for killing Mario and escaping disadvantage, but he needs to improve DI on vertical setups and needleplay asap or else he might keep losing to them.
Took a set off of Anti recently and beat Ally at SSC. Mr. R also took a set off of Zenyou in a dominant fashion at MSM 3-4 days ago.

Edit:
Most everyone thinks Sheik beats Cloud and Bayo.
Mr. R thinks Diddy beats Sheik while some others believe it's even.
For a while I thought Sonic was dead even but the results are pretty slanted in her favour and it hasn't seemed too great ever since spindash counterplay evolved.
M2 is notably considered a slight win by everyone from both sides of the MU, including VoiD/Mr. R/Abadango.
Last I talked to Trela he thought Sheik was either even or a slight loss.
I don't think I've said anything off the wall crazy.

Huh, did Mr R change his opinion recently (I wouldn't know why though)?

Because not too long ago, at CEO Dreamland, he says this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kpiOxJfAfI#t=2m22s

He thinks the MU is either even or in Sheiks favor.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sheik beats Ryu, damn it.

 

[TriTails]

I feel that Aba will use Mewtwo against Elegant at least. Not only because Mewtwo wins against Luigi quite hard, but Elegant is basically the Bayo slayer. Going Bayo against him wouldn't be the brightest thing you'd see (Although I've yet to see Aba's Bayo so I have to check whether he plays significantly different from other Bayos or not).

Besides, Elegant got bodied by Rich Brown multiple times back then by trying to dodge rapid fire man-sized black balls coming at machine gun rate, so I'm almost certain Aba willl go Mewtwo in this MU when they meet again and take the easy win because Luigi vs Mewtwo is so dumb for Luigi damn it.

 

[Floor]

The point is (someone said "grab" so I simplified the Puff v Falcon MU as it applies to grab; not saying Puff wins cause Falcon can't grab) that Puff's crouch is an underused tool that Falcon has a particularly hard time dealing with. It's not just grab, Puff can crouch to escape dash attack, any aerial minus unsafe dair, Falcon's S-tier jab.... Almost all of Falcon's moveset loses to Puff's crouch. There's more to Falcon that grab Nah but there's more to Puff's crouch than escaping grab. Yeah, her ground game is pretty bad... but I'm making the point that at least it has crouch (also a pretty good jab for extends combos)

Trifroze again, I wasn't even going to mention grab until someone brought it up; Megaman can't crouch under half the things Puff can crouch under. I'm not the one that brought up grab

 

[FeelMeUp]

Huh, did Mr R change his opinion recently (I wouldn't know why though)?

Because not too long ago, at CEO Dreamland, he says this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kpiOxJfAfI#t=2m22s

He thinks the MU is either even or in Sheiks favor.

Apologies, I misspoke. I believe he said at another tourney in a smaller region that Sheik wins on everything but BF/DL.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

The point is (someone said "grab" so I simplified the Puff v Falcon MU as it applies to grab; not saying Puff wins cause Falcon can't grab) that Puff's crouch is an underused tool that Falcon has a particularly hard time dealing with. It's not just grab, Puff can crouch to escape dash attack, any aerial minus unsafe dair, Falcon's S-tier jab.... Almost all of Falcon's moveset loses to Puff's crouch. There's more to Falcon that grab Nah but there's more to Puff's crouch than escaping grab. Yeah, her ground game is pretty bad... but I'm making the point that at least it has crouch (also a pretty good jab for extends combos)

Trifroze again, I wasn't even going to mention grab until someone brought it up; Megaman can't crouch under half the things Puff can crouch under. I'm not the one that brought up grab

Crouch doesn't escape dash attack. Tilts, dash attack, falcon kick, raptor boost, and bair can all hit a crouching opponent and feinting these moves can cause your opponent to shield, opening up situations for a grab. Tilts outside of dtilt obviously run the risk of having to get too close and/or being more situational but they still hit just the same.

I've brought this up with Kirby before but, simply being able to crouch under some of his attacks does not mean you beat or go even with Falcon in this case. It works for Pikachu because Pikachu can crawl and every time Pikachu uses any of his moves near the ground he just pancakes out. But even then most of Pikachu's moves that put him in an animation like this have end lag or don't autocancel so you can either just punish with dash attack instead or wait for Pikachu to go through the animation of standing up and then grab him. Pikachu also just happens to be one of the characters that Falcon can kill from a dash grab at certain percents, so I'd say it's best to just wait for those stand up animations or pressure your opponent into shielding.

 

[Laken64]

Well speaking of players switching to Bayo. Tweek was alao using her in doubles at Royal Flush, and it looked pretty good.? even having a bit more success with her then his Cloud in some sets.

I wonder if Tweek will use her at any point in the singles competition. It did look like he put in some work with her.

Tweek has used her in the past albit in a MSM local and got 2nd I think under 6wx

 

[TDK]

Tweek has used her in the past albit in a MSM local and got 2nd I think under 6wx

Minor correction here: Tweek got 5th with Bayo, losing to 6WX and Eon .

 

[Vyrnx]

IcyMist 2-0 Marss

 

[TDK]

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-royal-flush-discussion-thread.447722/